JSP vs ASP vs Cold Fusion ???

[Phil phil.holbrook]

Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
web apps development
as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5 in
the future? Will JSP catch on
or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
It is my understanding
that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
two technologies but more
difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
a year of self-study into a
technology that's gonna' fizzle.

Any ideas?


Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"

[John Timney (MVP)]

> Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for
widespread
> web apps development
> as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5 in
> the future? Will JSP catch on
> or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold
Fusion?

Yes it will catch on - but its got an awful lot of catching to do...asp is
really mature and so versatile through com, with the onset of SOAP and LDAP
technology it gets even better. You can also use Java classes in ASP if you
wish. As for Cold Fusion - I dont like it, but it has a minority following,
as does PHP.

It is my understanding
> that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
> two technologies but more
> difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
> a year of self-study into a
> technology that's gonna' fizzle.

Its not true to say its more flexible, and ASP will run on almost any
platform via Chilli, its a lot easier to develop in ASP than JSP or
servlets, and I develop in both so I think I know what I'm talking about.
That said, learning java will not do you any harm, its a good language if
you ignore the anti-microsoft idiots and dont mind the ridiculous amount of
deprecation that seem to be going on.

Regards

John Timney (MVP)

[Tom Duffy]

Hello Phil:

My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.
That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.

The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
I'm not.

Tom Duffy

"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>
>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>web apps development
>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5 in
>the future? Will JSP catch on
>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
> It is my understanding
>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>two technologies but more
>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>a year of self-study into a
>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>
>Any ideas?
>
>
>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>

[Phil]

Thanks for the reply, I'm feeling more and more comfortable
about putting in all this time on Java. However, I have another question
about your response ...

<<<ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available through
the View Source command>>> I was under the impression that the 'processed
result' of the VB Script is all that's visible. Is this enough to pull out
the business rules of your application?

Thanks Again,

Phil




"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Phil:
>
>My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.

>That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>
>The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
>methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
>property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
>through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
>it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
> I'm not.
>
>Tom Duffy
>
>"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>>
>>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>>web apps development
>>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
in
>>the future? Will JSP catch on
>>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
>> It is my understanding
>>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>>two technologies but more
>>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>>a year of self-study into a
>>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>>
>

[Strider]

All that is visible is what the asp code sends to the client. it doesn't
show any vbscript only the results, further more if you put your logic in
com objects it is further insulated.
I have mucho experience in VB and have to spend enough time learning the new
dna stuff, therefore I will spend my time learning new ways to do things in
vb or c++. com+, msmq, w2k and iis 5 is stable and microsoft isn't going to
go away anytime soon.

jc
Phil <phil.holbrook@allectis.com> wrote in message
news:38d0ef28$1@news.devx.com...
>
> Thanks for the reply, I'm feeling more and more comfortable
> about putting in all this time on Java. However, I have another question
> about your response ...
>
> <<<ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
through
> the View Source command>>> I was under the impression that the 'processed
> result' of the VB Script is all that's visible. Is this enough to pull
out
> the business rules of your application?
>
> Thanks Again,
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
> "Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Hello Phil:
> >
> >My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.
>
> >That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
> >
> >The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to
call
> >methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business
rules/logic/intellectual
> >property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily
available
> >through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and
yes,
> >it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's
really
> >mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your
code?
> > I'm not.
> >
> >Tom Duffy
> >
> >"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
> >>
> >>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for
widespread
> >>web apps development
> >>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
> in
> >>the future? Will JSP catch on
> >>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold
Fusion?
> >> It is my understanding
> >>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the
other
> >>two technologies but more
> >>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna'
sink
> >>a year of self-study into a
> >>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
> >>
> >>Any ideas?
> >>
> >>
> >>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
> >>
> >
>

[John Timney (MVP)]

I'm afraid your a little incorrect Tom, ASP can easily call methods in
compiled Java code and has the added advantage of COM+, its also totally
platform independent if you run it over products like Chillisofts asp
engine.

ASP code is strictly server side, the only think you will see is the same
output you would see in a JSP page or servlet output. ASP would typically
be developed in vbscript, jscript or javascript so it doesn't only relate to
win32 developers.

I do agree with you that its here to stay, but like Java it still needs to
mature a bit before it makes a more significant impact on the market.

Regards

John Timney (MVP)


> My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.
> That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>
> The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
> methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business
rules/logic/intellectual
> property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily
available
> through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
> it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
> mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
> I'm not.
>
> Tom Duffy

[Sylvain Bujold]

If you are good in JavaScript and HTML and your web apps need strong feature
of database: the BEST solution is West-Wind Web Connection!! Nothing more
to say.

Sylvain Bujold

[lhmartin nitram]

"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Phil:
>
>My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.

>That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>
>The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
>methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
>property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
>through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
>it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
> I'm not.
>
>Tom Duffy
>
>"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>>
>>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>>web apps development
>>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
in
>>the future? Will JSP catch on
>>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
>> It is my understanding
>>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>>two technologies but more
>>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>>a year of self-study into a
>>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>>
>

[StaceBerkland]

Tom,

I'm not sure that you fully understand ASP. with ASP one CAN call methods
in compiled code (VB, C++, or Java).

And, since ASP code is typically server-side, you can NOT view the source
and see that server-side logic. The only thing you see when viewing source
in a browser is that code being generated for the client (typically HTML,
CSS, or client-side JavaScript).

JSP is a very good response to ASP and Allaire's ColdFusion. But, it's still
young. Do I think it's hear to stay? Of course I do! But, the items you
proposed as arguments for using JSP over ASP are not accurate.

Next time, make sure you understand the tool and what it does before you
start tearing it apart.

Stace


"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Phil:
>
>My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.

>That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>
>The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
>methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
>property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
>through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
>it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
> I'm not.
>
>Tom Duffy
>
>"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>>
>>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>>web apps development
>>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
in
>>the future? Will JSP catch on
>>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
>> It is my understanding
>>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>>two technologies but more
>>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>>a year of self-study into a
>>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>>
>

[Andi]

Hi All,

Have anyone have an experience with ColdFusion? I read all your discussion.
I just only ASP vs JSP.

Thank

[John Timney (MVP)]

I have used it but not in anger, its a very good product...but its slipping
back a bit in the market I think. Wouldn't be my first choice, mainly as I
know other things much better, its got some excellent features though.

Regards

John Timney (MVP)


Andi <annops@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:38dbaa8f$1@news.devx.com...
>
> Hi All,
>
> Have anyone have an experience with ColdFusion? I read all your
discussion.
> I just only ASP vs JSP.
>
> Thank

[Sebasten Bouchet]

You have to analyse whch amount of extra service you need. If you want email
capabilities, ldap support, a naming service, platform-independant DB access
and growing XML support, then Java (J2EE)is a good think to look at.

Then keep in mind that ASP runs best on Microsoft platforms (in spite of
Chili software), Java technologies on Unix machines, especially Solaris.

But to me, both ASP and JSP (I don't know about CF) fail to separate business
logic from presentation by allowing web authors to embed far too much code
in their pages.

I'm convinced that the only safe way to use JSP is too use them along with
servlets. The functional paradigm then becomes :
1) Intercept the client request with your servlet, process the data and business
logic (db access, online pricing ...)
2) Forward the results to your JSP which is clearly devoted to presentation
and presentation only, with JSP tags containing little code.

By doing this your Java code is cleaner and can be as complex as you want
it to be (add exception handling to your JSP code and have a look at your
document in Dreamweaver ...)

Hope this helps understanding what your needs are

Sebastien

[mike]

Phil,

The way I see it is that ASP ties you to the Microsoft and hence Intel platforms.
JSP on the other hand does not. I hear arguments that ChiliASP makes ASP
portable but in my eyes this is a weak argument. The most powerful feature
of ASP is it's ability to call COM objects. When using ChiliASP on non Microsoft
platforms you don't have COM. It can be argued that there are tools which
allow you to do some of this on non MS platforms but you start moving into
an environment just as complex as JSP.

JSP on the other hand is more complex and the IDE's are not nearly as friendly
but I believe you will see this changing rapidly. The ability to deploy
JSP on platforms as diverse as Linux, OS/400, OS/390, AIX, Solaris, NT, etc.
let's you pick the best deployment option that fits your needs.

There is no one right answer. Microsoft has a compelling solution if you
are willing to drink the Microsoft Cool-Aide. JSP on the other hand has
a steeper learning curve but offers many more deployment options.

Hope this help.

Mike

[Tristan Blais]

I work for a web design and web consulting firm. We use both ASP & ColdFusion
for data driven websites. I love both these tools/languages. Depending on
the type of client we are designing the site for we use the appropriate tools.

Since most of the time we arent hosting the given client's site, we have
to take into consideration how knowledgeable the person or people that will
be doing the maintenance on the site will be.

I have found that ColdFusion is quite easy to learn and has a small learning
curve. When we use ASP in the design of websites, we make sure the client
has someone that can do updates and maintenance on the given site. This
is quite easy since ASP closely ressembles VB and therefore not too hard
to adapt too.

I couldnt see myself handing a JSP driven website to a client knowing they
would bang their heads on the monitors trying to learn Java. I program in
Java once in a while, and know the language pretty well but it seems that
most people who try to learn it give up after a while due to its complexity
and lack of stable IDE.

And lets face it, with the amount of available ActiveX controls(commercial
and non-commercial), ASP makes web developement that much easier.

Well, thats my rant

T. Blais

[Ross Lambert]

> Microsoft has a compelling solution if you
> are willing to drink the Microsoft Cool-Aide.
> JSP on the other hand has a steeper learning curve but
> offers many more deployment options.

You are quite correct, but I think _everybody_ is missing the point by just
a smidgin: ASP is a Microsoft-specific solution. They're you're only choice
for a vendor on Windows. J2EE is vendor neutral. There are already some great
competing options.

Incidentally, I don't really like JSP (or ASP, for that matter). I prefer
heavy use of servlets in combination with server-side include statments embedded
within HTML. I have a clean separation between GUI (HTML) and back-end (servlet)
tiers and I don't have to embed JSP stuff in my HTML.

== Ross ==

Ross Lambert, Senior Programmer/Analyst
PUD No. 1 of Douglas County, WA

[ASP Developer]

I saw your reply on Devx (view below).

ASP is server-side so no one sees the source code. You can call methods and
properties in ASP as well through the intrinsic ASP objects as well as components
written in VB, VC, C, Perl, Java or any other language.

Your misunderstanding or misrepresentation is unfortunate.




"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Phil:
>
>My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.

>That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>
>The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
>methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
>property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
>through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
>it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
> I'm not.
>
>Tom Duffy
>
>"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>>
>>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>>web apps development
>>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
in
>>the future? Will JSP catch on
>>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
>> It is my understanding
>>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>>two technologies but more
>>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>>a year of self-study into a
>>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>>
>

[ASP Developer]

Cold Fusion is Tagged based. So instead of using a scripting or programming
language, you use tags (like HTML) to control the program flow in the individual
pages. Cold Fusion is stated to be 50% faster to develop in compared to ASP.
But Allaire doesn't have access to Microsoft source code so you will find
that ASP is optimized to run on the Microsoft Platform over other server
technologies except ISAPI. Cold Fusion is easy to learn and offers fast development.
ASP is easy to learn and offer fast development through scripting and more
power through compiled components.

"Andi" <annops@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hi All,
>
>Have anyone have an experience with ColdFusion? I read all your discussion.
> I just only ASP vs JSP.
>
>Thank

[ASP Developer]

J2EE is Sun Microsystems specific it is not vendor neutral because support
for Java is being pulled off of the Microsoft Platform and since Microsoft
is a vendor just like Sun Microsystems, then I would say that your statement
about vendor neutrality is inaccurate. Second, Java is purported to write
once, run anywhere, but COM also exists on non-Microsoft platforms, so you
can use ASP on as much servers as Java. Companies like ChiliSoft are enabling
ASP on other platforms all of the time and they do this through binaries
and COM (which is dependent on binaries). For those that don't know, COM
is cross platform (it is all in the binaries).

"Ross Lambert" <ross@webwolves.com> wrote:
>
>> Microsoft has a compelling solution if you
>> are willing to drink the Microsoft Cool-Aide.
>> JSP on the other hand has a steeper learning curve but
>> offers many more deployment options.
>
>You are quite correct, but I think _everybody_ is missing the point by just
>a smidgin: ASP is a Microsoft-specific solution. They're you're only choice
>for a vendor on Windows. J2EE is vendor neutral. There are already some
great
>competing options.
>
>Incidentally, I don't really like JSP (or ASP, for that matter). I prefer
>heavy use of servlets in combination with server-side include statments
embedded
>within HTML. I have a clean separation between GUI (HTML) and back-end (servlet)
>tiers and I don't have to embed JSP stuff in my HTML.
>
>== Ross ==
>
>Ross Lambert, Senior Programmer/Analyst
>PUD No. 1 of Douglas County, WA
>
>

[ASP Developer]

ASP is not intended to separate logic from presentation in itself, but to
facilitate that through Components. You logic is written in any programming
language you want (Java, Basic, C, Perl or whatever) and called from ASP
which produces HTML. You HTML documents don't have to be littered with ASP
code but rather place as much of the logic in the compiled dll files and
only use ASP (VBScript/JavaScript/PerlScript) to send data to these components
through method calles and the exposure of properties. Depending on how you
code the components, you end up with very, very little ASP code and much
more presentation code on the front end. Microsoft describes ASP as a glue.

JSP is attractive in that it has a program language to make it the "glue"
or bridge between content and logic as well as being the component. The problem
you end up with is your designers will have a hard time with presenation
development and maintenance and they will either have to know Java/JSP or
you will have to learn design.

For ultimate speed, functionality and power you really should go with server-side
technologies developed in C or C++.

"Sebasten Bouchet" <sebastien.bouchet@lycosmail.com> wrote:
>
>You have to analyse whch amount of extra service you need. If you want email
>capabilities, ldap support, a naming service, platform-independant DB access
>and growing XML support, then Java (J2EE)is a good think to look at.
>
>Then keep in mind that ASP runs best on Microsoft platforms (in spite of
>Chili software), Java technologies on Unix machines, especially Solaris.
>
>But to me, both ASP and JSP (I don't know about CF) fail to separate business
>logic from presentation by allowing web authors to embed far too much code
>in their pages.
>
>I'm convinced that the only safe way to use JSP is too use them along with
>servlets. The functional paradigm then becomes :
>1) Intercept the client request with your servlet, process the data and
business
>logic (db access, online pricing ...)
>2) Forward the results to your JSP which is clearly devoted to presentation
>and presentation only, with JSP tags containing little code.
>
>By doing this your Java code is cleaner and can be as complex as you want
>it to be (add exception handling to your JSP code and have a look at your
>document in Dreamweaver ...)
>
>Hope this helps understanding what your needs are
>
>Sebastien

[mike]

Non Win32 versions of COM cost money and suffer performance problems. I'd
be interested in hearing specific examples of COM being used by anyone with
a substantial user count on their web application.

I believe Microsoft's new cross language runtime (part of COM+)is off target.
I know Microsoft's answer is to use XML/HTTP (ala SOAP) to provide portable
data but I'd rather have a cross platform language like Java which I can
move closer to the data if needed. With Java I get cross platform data and
programs. With COM I only get the data.

Regards,

Mike

[Philippe Blondeaux]

It is true that many asp programmers do all their logic in vbscript in the
asp because it is fun to do and easy but it is better to do it only for prototyping
after that , encapsulate your logic in a compiled COM component and call
it from the asp , this avoids showing your code , works much faster .

Philippe

"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Phil:
>
>My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.

>That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>
>The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
>methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
>property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
>through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
>it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
> I'm not.
>
>Tom Duffy
>
>"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>>
>>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>>web apps development
>>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
in
>>the future? Will JSP catch on
>>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
>> It is my understanding
>>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>>two technologies but more
>>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>>a year of self-study into a
>>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>>
>

[Michael Tutty]

Tom:
You obviously don't program in ASP. If you did, you'd realize that the VBScript
source code executed on the server is NEVER passed to the client. And the
"compiled code" aspect of your previous note ignores the fact that most serious
use of ASP involves migrating the code to compile VB DLL's and making very
simple pass-through calls in the script environment.
M.

"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Phil:
>
>My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.

>That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>
>The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
>methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
>property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
>through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
>it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
> I'm not.
>
>Tom Duffy
>
>"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>>
>>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>>web apps development
>>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
in
>>the future? Will JSP catch on
>>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
>> It is my understanding
>>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>>two technologies but more
>>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>>a year of self-study into a
>>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>>
>

[Akhilesh Mritunjai]

hey friend...
i seriously think that u consider ur point once again... jsp is good but
only in specific ways.

1) there is a heavy performance cost involved in using jsp! jvm however fast,
just can't match the speed and versatality of asp on a win2000 machine ie
IIS 5.0 (even with a lean hardware i use celeron333 with 128mb ram and win2000
to serve ~2000 comps!!)... and it offers really descent performance... i
have the ease of naming all the files as asp ie i use a consistent asp template
for developing pages this drastically reduces the transition and development
time converting a static page into an asp page later on (u never know when
u will stumble upon a circumstance when u have to)

2) jsp is no doubt having an inordinally steep learning curve (i learnt asp
just by win98 personal web server documentation in 15days!! and started developing
full-fledged websites with database connectivity and et all) otoh i haven't
got head and tails of servelet programming as yet after giving a fight for
1 month, even when i _know_ java pretty well!!

3) jsp servers ARE RARE species as yet now (hunting for whole good one month)
i haven't found a descent server that can be obtained as shareware or freeware
on which i can even BEGIN experimenting!! otoh PWS for win98\95 and IIS 4.0
for NT and IIS 5.0 (fundoo server) with win2K (a really groundbreaking os)
comes bundled with their respective OSs and are perfect with asp.

4) ASP plugins ARE acvailable for other popular web servers also like apache
and et all that too are free! (and commercial ones won't burn a hole in your
pocket...)
5) for ULTIMATE performance when u decide to use C\C++ u will immediatetly
know what CONSISTENCY means ... it requires importing only ONE dll to have
aall the look and feel in MSVC++ that too at a superb time efficiency (just
try to visulize time taken fot development implementing custom libraries
for connecting to YOUR DATABASE SERVER vis-a-vis using the consistent methods
to connect to ODBC through virtually ANY database server...)...

just try to visulize the things and picture will get clearer..
yours
Akhilesh Mritunjai

"Ross Lambert" <ross@webwolves.com> wrote:
>
>> Microsoft has a compelling solution if you
>> are willing to drink the Microsoft Cool-Aide.
>> JSP on the other hand has a steeper learning curve but
>> offers many more deployment options.
>
>You are quite correct, but I think _everybody_ is missing the point by just
>a smidgin: ASP is a Microsoft-specific solution. They're you're only choice
>for a vendor on Windows. J2EE is vendor neutral. There are already some
great
>competing options.
>
>Incidentally, I don't really like JSP (or ASP, for that matter). I prefer
>heavy use of servlets in combination with server-side include statments
embedded
>within HTML. I have a clean separation between GUI (HTML) and back-end (servlet)
>tiers and I don't have to embed JSP stuff in my HTML.
>
>== Ross ==
>
>Ross Lambert, Senior Programmer/Analyst
>PUD No. 1 of Douglas County, WA
>
>

[Mark Weiss]

This is completely untrue. ASP code is parsed, interpreted and executed ON
THE SERVER. ASP-processing Web servers that receive a request for an *.asp
page perform all of these steps first, then take the results of the ASP processing
to assemble the final page, which then and only then is sent to the client.
If you view source on ANY ASP page you will see only HTML. An ASP page
with a source file that looks like this:
<HTML>
<HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY>
<% Response.Write "Hello, World" %>
</BODY>
</HTML>

will look like this when the client views source:
<HTML>
<HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY>
Hello, World
</BODY>
</HTML>

Try not to post to the board unless you are sure you know what you are talking
about ... "ASP code resides in the client document" is a fundamentally false
statement. It is true that JSP servers compile the embedded code they contain
-- after the first time the page is loaded. And it is true that this is
an advantage -- because compiled bytecode will execute much faster than interpreted
ASP code. But in both cases, the code is being executed on the server.


"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Phil:
>
>My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.

>That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>
>The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
>methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
>property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
>through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
>it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
> I'm not.
>
>Tom Duffy
>
>"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>>
>>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>>web apps development
>>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
in
>>the future? Will JSP catch on
>>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
>> It is my understanding
>>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>>two technologies but more
>>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>>a year of self-study into a
>>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>>
>

[Tom Duffy]

Hello Mark:

So what happens when someone uses FTP to download your page? So much for
server processing then - huh? The logic is in the page like it or not.
Gee, sorry if it wasn't the View Source command - a simple mistake. Feel
free to correct a mistake but save your lecture.

Tom Duffy

"Mark Weiss" <marksweiss@aol.com> wrote:
>
>This is completely untrue. ASP code is parsed, interpreted and executed
ON
>THE SERVER. ASP-processing Web servers that receive a request for an *.asp
>page perform all of these steps first, then take the results of the ASP
processing
>to assemble the final page, which then and only then is sent to the client.
> If you view source on ANY ASP page you will see only HTML. An ASP page
>with a source file that looks like this:
><HTML>
><HEAD></HEAD>
><BODY>
><% Response.Write "Hello, World" %>
></BODY>
></HTML>
>
>will look like this when the client views source:
><HTML>
><HEAD></HEAD>
><BODY>
>Hello, World
></BODY>
></HTML>
>
>Try not to post to the board unless you are sure you know what you are talking
>about ... "ASP code resides in the client document" is a fundamentally false
>statement. It is true that JSP servers compile the embedded code they contain
>-- after the first time the page is loaded. And it is true that this is
>an advantage -- because compiled bytecode will execute much faster than
interpreted
>ASP code. But in both cases, the code is being executed on the server.
>
>
>"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Hello Phil:
>>
>>My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.
>
>>That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>>
>>The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
>>methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
>>property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
>>through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
>>it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>>mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
>> I'm not.
>>
>>Tom Duffy
>>
>>"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>>>
>>>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>>>web apps development
>>>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
>in
>>>the future? Will JSP catch on
>>>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold
Fusion?
>>> It is my understanding
>>>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>>>two technologies but more
>>>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>>>a year of self-study into a
>>>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>>>
>>>Any ideas?
>>>
>>>
>>>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>>>
>>
>

[Dickie Aurora daurora]

"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Phil:
>
>My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.

>That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>
>The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
>methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
>property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
>through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
>it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
> I'm not.
>
>Tom Duffy
>
>"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>>
>>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>>web apps development
>>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
in
>>the future? Will JSP catch on
>>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
>> It is my understanding
>>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>>two technologies but more
>>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>>a year of self-study into a
>>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>>
>

[Dickie Aurora]

"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Phil:
>
>My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.

>That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>
>The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
>methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
>property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
>through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
>it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
> I'm not.
>
>Tom Duffy
>
>"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>>
>>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>>web apps development
>>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
in
>>the future? Will JSP catch on
>>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
>> It is my understanding
>>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>>two technologies but more
>>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>>a year of self-study into a
>>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>>
>

Hi Tom!

There seems to be some confusion regarding ASP residing on "client" and being
seen from "view source" of the browser. This is not true. ASP is a server
side scripting and generates pure HTML. The same applies to JSP and servlets.


Dickie

[subra]

All that features of JSP are fine. But the fuzzy thing with JSP
is its case-sensitiveness. I run my jsp pages with the help
of beasystems weblogic server which has a in-built JSP-compiler.
When i gave the extension of one jsp file in all caps - in MSIE 4.0 browser,
named logon.JSP immediately the file-download dialog was shown and in no
time the entire jsp code is downloaded in the client.

This is really funny.

Subra


"John Timney (MVP)" <timneyj@btinternet.com> wrote:
>I'm afraid your a little incorrect Tom, ASP can easily call methods in
>compiled Java code and has the added advantage of COM+, its also totally
>platform independent if you run it over products like Chillisofts asp
>engine.
>
>ASP code is strictly server side, the only think you will see is the same
>output you would see in a JSP page or servlet output. ASP would typically
>be developed in vbscript, jscript or javascript so it doesn't only relate
to
>win32 developers.
>
>I do agree with you that its here to stay, but like Java it still needs
to
>mature a bit before it makes a more significant impact on the market.
>
>Regards
>
>John Timney (MVP)
>
>
>> My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.
>> That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>>
>> The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to
call
>> methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business
>rules/logic/intellectual
>> property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily
>available
>> through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and
yes,
>> it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>> mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
>> I'm not.
>>
>> Tom Duffy
>
>
>

[Arto Santala]

To me that looks like case of faulty mime-mapping in webserver. I'd guess
that .jsp is mapped correctly but .JSP is not, and therefore it passes the
file straight through.

"subra" <rsm_73@usa.net> wrote:
>
>All that features of JSP are fine. But the fuzzy thing with JSP
>is its case-sensitiveness. I run my jsp pages with the help
>of beasystems weblogic server which has a in-built JSP-compiler.
>When i gave the extension of one jsp file in all caps - in MSIE 4.0 browser,
>named logon.JSP immediately the file-download dialog was shown and in no
>time the entire jsp code is downloaded in the client.
>
>This is really funny.
>
>Subra
>
>
>"John Timney (MVP)" <timneyj@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>I'm afraid your a little incorrect Tom, ASP can easily call methods in
>>compiled Java code and has the added advantage of COM+, its also totally
>>platform independent if you run it over products like Chillisofts asp
>>engine.
>>
>>ASP code is strictly server side, the only think you will see is the same
>>output you would see in a JSP page or servlet output. ASP would typically
>>be developed in vbscript, jscript or javascript so it doesn't only relate
>to
>>win32 developers.
>>
>>I do agree with you that its here to stay, but like Java it still needs
>to
>>mature a bit before it makes a more significant impact on the market.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>John Timney (MVP)
>>
>>
>>> My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.
>>> That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>>>
>>> The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to
>call
>>> methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business
>>rules/logic/intellectual
>>> property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily
>>available
>>> through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and
>yes,
>>> it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>>> mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your
code?
>>> I'm not.
>>>
>>> Tom Duffy
>>
>>
>>
>

[Arto Santala]

True, if you set an ftp-server on your webserver to deliver the documents,
yes, asp-files can be loaded to client computers. Exactly like they would
if you copied your files on floppies and put a huge box of them on the street.

However, ftp doesn't see the webdirs by default, and most webservers don't
have ftp service at all because 1) it's not usually needed 2) it's a possible
security hole 3) If they have ftp, it's on other server alltogether.

So no, you normally can't load asp via ftp. And not via show source. ASP
used to have a security hole that allowed downloading of sourcecodes via
certain browser, but I hear it doesn't exist anymore.


"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Mark:
>
>So what happens when someone uses FTP to download your page? So much for
>server processing then - huh? The logic is in the page like it or not.

>Gee, sorry if it wasn't the View Source command - a simple mistake. Feel
>free to correct a mistake but save your lecture.
>
>Tom Duffy
>
>"Mark Weiss" <marksweiss@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>This is completely untrue. ASP code is parsed, interpreted and executed
>ON
>>THE SERVER. ASP-processing Web servers that receive a request for an *.asp
>>page perform all of these steps first, then take the results of the ASP
>processing
>>to assemble the final page, which then and only then is sent to the client.
>> If you view source on ANY ASP page you will see only HTML. An ASP page
>>with a source file that looks like this:
>><HTML>
>><HEAD></HEAD>
>><BODY>
>><% Response.Write "Hello, World" %>
>></BODY>
>></HTML>
>>
>>will look like this when the client views source:
>><HTML>
>><HEAD></HEAD>
>><BODY>
>>Hello, World
>></BODY>
>></HTML>
>>
>>Try not to post to the board unless you are sure you know what you are
talking
>>about ... "ASP code resides in the client document" is a fundamentally
false
>>statement. It is true that JSP servers compile the embedded code they
contain
>>-- after the first time the page is loaded. And it is true that this is
>>an advantage -- because compiled bytecode will execute much faster than
>interpreted
>>ASP code. But in both cases, the code is being executed on the server.
>>
>>
>>"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Hello Phil:
>>>
>>>My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.
>>
>>>That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>>>
>>>The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to
call
>>>methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
>>>property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
>>>through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and
yes,
>>>it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>>>mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
>>> I'm not.
>>>
>>>Tom Duffy
>>>
>>>"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>>>>web apps development
>>>>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
>>in
>>>>the future? Will JSP catch on
>>>>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold
>Fusion?
>>>> It is my understanding
>>>>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>>>>two technologies but more
>>>>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna'
sink
>>>>a year of self-study into a
>>>>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>>>>
>>>>Any ideas?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

[Arto Santala]

For development of jsp-pages you can use Jrun free licence version, or J2EE
from Javasoft. Or TomCat from same place.

Unfortunately, I agree that with Microsoft you can develop ASP and serve
ASP on products without buying anything more than the NT server. With jsp
you can develop for free - but I haven't found any free solutions for commercial
robustness and business use yet. ASP could be thought as one, although you
do have to buy Windows.

I have no experience of non-windows asp platforms, but I've never heard of
anyone using them in actual production either.

>3) jsp servers ARE RARE species as yet now (hunting for whole good one month)
>i haven't found a descent server that can be obtained as shareware or freeware
>on which i can even BEGIN experimenting!! otoh PWS for win98\95 and IIS
4.0
>for NT and IIS 5.0 (fundoo server) with win2K (a really groundbreaking os)
>comes bundled with their respective OSs and are perfect with asp.

[Gary]

I agree with this. Writing too much script code on the page leads to limited
resuse and very tough to maintain. I've seen this in both ASP and JSP.
No matter what your server side processing technology is; COM, SSI, servlets;
you should always stay away from page scripting unless you're building a
small site.

I still believe Microsoft and ASP are far more advanced at this time, for
both simplicity and scalability. However, I do believe Java and JSP are
gaining quickly. Since VB is not an proper OO language, your back end design
is hindered because of this. And since COM is limited in it's design capabilities,
Java is a far superior OO modelling language. Granted, with the changes
to VB 7, it could be an exciting race. I think it all comes down to personal
preference. It's a tough one to dispute.

I'm not too familiar with CF, but from what I understand, it's a quick and
dirty solution. Basically, for people building non-scalable sites.

Gary

"Sebasten Bouchet" <sebastien.bouchet@lycosmail.com> wrote:
>
>You have to analyse whch amount of extra service you need. If you want email
>capabilities, ldap support, a naming service, platform-independant DB access
>and growing XML support, then Java (J2EE)is a good think to look at.
>
>Then keep in mind that ASP runs best on Microsoft platforms (in spite of
>Chili software), Java technologies on Unix machines, especially Solaris.
>
>But to me, both ASP and JSP (I don't know about CF) fail to separate business
>logic from presentation by allowing web authors to embed far too much code
>in their pages.
>
>I'm convinced that the only safe way to use JSP is too use them along with
>servlets. The functional paradigm then becomes :
>1) Intercept the client request with your servlet, process the data and
business
>logic (db access, online pricing ...)
>2) Forward the results to your JSP which is clearly devoted to presentation
>and presentation only, with JSP tags containing little code.
>
>By doing this your Java code is cleaner and can be as complex as you want
>it to be (add exception handling to your JSP code and have a look at your
>document in Dreamweaver ...)
>
>Hope this helps understanding what your needs are
>
>Sebastien

[Andrew Cooper]

"Andi" <annops@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hi All,
>
>Have anyone have an experience with ColdFusion? I read all your discussion.
> I just only ASP vs JSP.
>
>Thank

Asking which tool is better is like asking which ice cream flavor is better:
It depends!

We use both ASP and ColdFusion in our shop. Choosing a tool depends on what
the client wants, what platform(s) the code will be running on, and which
developers I have available for a project!

ColdFusion is tag-based, so our HTML developers have really embraced it as
something "close" to what they're used to. Our VB- and Access-experienced
programmers prefer ASP (but they also "do" CF, so they're my "utility infielders").

ColdFusion is really good for quick development of an application (we recently
finished a 300+ module CF app in ~5wks), but ASP is better for more involved
business logic and native (ADO) connections to SQL Server. ASP is better
for more "traditional" programming styles, but CF is better for those not
wanting to get bogged down in programming details. ASP is better for accessing
files and folders on a server, while CF's CFCONTENT and CFFILE tags are draconian,
to be kind.

HTH,
Andrew Cooper
Partner/Chief Technologist
Interactive Business Solutions, Inc.
http://www.n2biz.com