VB.NET - Where's The Documentation?

[Bob]

The changes in VB.NET will take some getting used to, however, what really
irritates me is the lack of documentation on VB.NET. It appears that C# is
getting all of the attention now - perhaps this is subliminal suggestion
on the part of Microsoft. -bottom line - how do we learn it? Thousands of
dollars more for books written by people who have some vague idea of how
to explain their interpretation how the product might be used, and training
classes given by people who have read one or two of the books just described.

Microsoft also claims that they are going to have "Help" that will cover
all of the changes in VB.NET. This claim too is disheartening when considering
the dismal quality of the incongruous mass -1.6 gigabytes - of babble called
MSDN. Incorrect examples abound in MSDN - when one is fortunate enough to
find an example of whatever it is with which one needs help. Microsoft is
extremely gifted at developing products and then dumping them on developers,
and in effect saying "go on for yourself."
While I have read many of the objections VB programmers have to VB.NET, if
I read between the lines, I get a sense of "who is going to show us how VB.NET
should be used, because Microsoft sure as **** won't." Just when your boss
thinks you are adequately trained on the 6.0 flavor of VB, along comes Gates
and company saying: "Well, now that we have bled enough money out of you
to teach 'em how to do VB 6, we are going to start all over again." I wonder
how all of this fits in Microsoft's Cost of Ownership equation? I know it
fits well in Microsoft's Profit equation.
There is a remote possibility that Microsoft will do something to explain
the changes in VB, what about the person that wants to begin learning
VB.NET from the ground up? - the learning curve becomes much longer and steeper
- and the curve is almost vertical and out to infinity if the person has
to rely on Microsoft's documentation. If the person buys the books, he/she
will have to wait until some authors finally figure out what should be done
to help people learn it, then write the books, the person spends hundreds
of dollars on the books, many months burning the midnight oil reading the
books and stepping through code, searching for the latest service packs,
bug lists, etc., etc., etc. And all of this just to do it all over again
in three or four years. It is about time Microsoft made an investment in
the people that feed them by providing abundant, accurate documentation on
their products!!!!!

[Jon Ogden]

I agree that the docs that are out right now would be frustrating for the
majority of VB programmers. However, this is a Beta - 1 release of the
product and presumably is not being run by them> (If for no other reason,
then because the majority do not have the resources available to permit them
to keep a windows 2K server in a non-production role.)

It is my understanding that MSFT has a number of people employed full-time
on creating VB documentation. Whether it will be more or less useful than
the docs we got with VB6, is another question, but one that cannot possibly
be answered yet. As to the books that you wish were already written - the
folks that will write them are using the beta to get a head start on what
you'll need to make the jump.

As to the idea that MSFT sprang .NET on us because it wants to make a lot of
money selling us development tools...it is to laugh. Unlike IBM, unlike
Oracle, unlike Borland, and unlike the manufacturers of every half-way
decent IDE for Java that I've seen, Microsoft sells their development
products at cost - or less.

Before venting your righteous anger any more, I suggest that you wait until
Microsoft releases the commercial version. They've let you take a look at
something that is obvious still in a state of flux. If you insist on
speaking of it as a finished product or demanding that it meet the standards
of something ready for shrink-wrap, you will only look unkewl.

Good Luck
Jon

"Bob" <rwical@firstva.com> wrote in message news:3abd63a2$1@news.devx.com...
>
> The changes in VB.NET will take some getting used to, however, what really
> irritates me is the lack of documentation on VB.NET. It appears that C# is
> getting all of the attention now - perhaps this is subliminal suggestion
> on the part of Microsoft. -bottom line - how do we learn it? Thousands of
> dollars more for books written by people who have some vague idea of how
> to explain their interpretation how the product might be used, and
training
> classes given by people who have read one or two of the books just
described.

Snipping the rest...

[Phil Weber]

> If the person buys the books, s/he will have to wait until
> some authors finally figure out what should be done to help
> people learn it, then write the books...

Bob: I just received a copy of the new Wrox Press book, "VB.NET Programming
with the Public Beta," and it looks like a very good intro. Check it out:
http://www.wrox.com/Books/Book_Details.asp?isbn=1861004915 .
---
Phil Weber

[Mike Mitchell]

On Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:19:36 -0800, "Phil Weber" <pweber@devx.com>
wrote:

> > If the person buys the books, s/he will have to wait until
> > some authors finally figure out what should be done to help
> > people learn it, then write the books...
>
>Bob: I just received a copy of the new Wrox Press book, "VB.NET Programming
>with the Public Beta,"...........

And therefore obviously completely out of date already. I'll wait till
the real thing comes out, thanks all the same. Meanwhile there'll be
plenty of VB6 work for me to earn actual money from, or so you all
keep telling me!

MM

[Larry Serflaten]

"Bob" <rwical@firstva.com> wrote
> Microsoft also claims that they are going to have "Help" that will cover
> all of the changes in VB.NET. This claim too is disheartening when considering
> the dismal quality of the incongruous mass -1.6 gigabytes - of babble called
> MSDN.

I have been requesting a return of the Programmer's Guide and Language Reference
manuals for VB.Net. Unfortunately, that might be a tough job, the Language
Reference alone might be 3 volumes! I also prefer to see instructions from
the designers, rather than an outside third party who may or may not get MS help
and guidance....

LFS

[Ed Courtenay]

Actually, the Language reference is likely to be quite small - the power of
the language (as in C#) now comes from the .NET Framework not the language
itself, so it's this that's going to have the 3 volume footprint.

It's actually quite an important disctinction to make mentally.

"Larry Serflaten" <serflaten@usinternet.com> wrote in message
news:3abf28ec@news.devx.com...
>
> "Bob" <rwical@firstva.com> wrote
> > Microsoft also claims that they are going to have "Help" that will cover
> > all of the changes in VB.NET. This claim too is disheartening when
considering
> > the dismal quality of the incongruous mass -1.6 gigabytes - of babble
called
> > MSDN.
>
> I have been requesting a return of the Programmer's Guide and Language
Reference
> manuals for VB.Net. Unfortunately, that might be a tough job, the
Language
> Reference alone might be 3 volumes! I also prefer to see instructions
from
> the designers, rather than an outside third party who may or may not get
MS help
> and guidance....
>
> LFS
>
>

[Larry Serflaten]

"Ed Courtenay" <ed@edcourtenay.co.uk> wrote
> Actually, the Language reference is likely to be quite small - the power of
> the language (as in C#) now comes from the .NET Framework not the language
> itself, so it's this that's going to have the 3 volume footprint.
>
> It's actually quite an important disctinction to make mentally.
>

You are correct that the VB language reference material need not contain
the system objects, but I was thinking it should, just like the earlier version
covered other Windows system objects IE: Printer, ClipBoard, Screen, etc.

Its that mass of objects and their 'hidden' methods and interfaces that need
explaining. I say 'hidden' because it is not readily apparent, nor intrinsically
intuitive what they contain, or support....

So what then, a Sytems Object Guide? Or, Guide to System Objects? Either
way, the darn thing would see a lot of use from me....

LFS

[Phil Weber]

> I have been requesting a return of the Programmer's Guide
> and Language Reference manuals for VB.NET.

Larry: They never went away: you can purchase hard copies of the
Programmer's Guide and Language Reference for VB6, and electronic versions
are available free of charge in MSDN. I like the fact that only those who
want dead-tree editions have to pay for them, rather than including them in
the box and making all of us share the cost. I hope they do something
similar with the VB.NET docs.
---
Phil Weber

[Mike Mitchell]

On Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:39:54 -0800, "Phil Weber" <pweber@devx.com>
wrote:

> > I have been requesting a return of the Programmer's Guide
> > and Language Reference manuals for VB.NET.
>
>Larry: They never went away: you can purchase hard copies of the
>Programmer's Guide and Language Reference for VB6

That sure is progress! With VB3 you got 'em for free in the box!

MM

[Phil Weber]

> With VB3 you got 'em for free in the box!

Mike: Nothing is free: with VB3, we all paid for the hard copy docs, whether
we wanted them or not. In current versions, only those who want hard copy
docs have to pay for them.
---
Phil Weber

[Andy Chevin]

> Mike: Nothing is free: with VB3, we all paid for the hard copy docs,
whether
> we wanted them or not. In current versions, only those who want hard copy
> docs have to pay for them.
> ---
> Phil Weber

I can't believe you really think it's us and not MS making the saving!
Boy, marketing *does* work.

Andy.

It is, I have it, but it is only an intro. From the moment you want to know
something special it is not in there anymore.

Jens

"Phil Weber" <pweber@devx.com> wrote in message
news:3abd9ba8@news.devx.com...
> > If the person buys the books, s/he will have to wait until
> > some authors finally figure out what should be done to help
> > people learn it, then write the books...
>
> Bob: I just received a copy of the new Wrox Press book, "VB.NET
Programming
> with the Public Beta," and it looks like a very good intro. Check it out:
> http://www.wrox.com/Books/Book_Details.asp?isbn=1861004915 .
> ---
> Phil Weber
>
>

[Larry Serflaten]

"Phil Weber" <pweber@devx.com> wrote in message news:3abfc52f$1@news.devx.com...
> > With VB3 you got 'em for free in the box!
>
> Mike: Nothing is free: with VB3, we all paid for the hard copy docs, whether
> we wanted them or not. In current versions, only those who want hard copy
> docs have to pay for them.
> ---
> Phil Weber
>

If they included a reply card in the box for VB5 to order the manuals, I
must have thrown it out... About the only mention I can find of a Programmers
Guide for VB5 is included in the learning edition. If there is a Language Ref.
and Programmers guide for VB5, I can't find them....

Do you know where they might be found?

LFS

[Jonathan Allen]

> Do you know where they might be found?

Here is the VB6 Language Reference. I couldn't find VB5, they probably don't
carry it any more.

http://mspress.microsoft.com/books/1613.htm

--
Jonathan Allen


"Larry Serflaten" <serflaten@usinternet.com> wrote in message
news:3ac0a10a@news.devx.com...
>
> "Phil Weber" <pweber@devx.com> wrote in message
news:3abfc52f$1@news.devx.com...
> > > With VB3 you got 'em for free in the box!
> >
> > Mike: Nothing is free: with VB3, we all paid for the hard copy docs,
whether
> > we wanted them or not. In current versions, only those who want hard
copy
> > docs have to pay for them.
> > ---
> > Phil Weber
> >
>
> If they included a reply card in the box for VB5 to order the manuals, I
> must have thrown it out... About the only mention I can find of a
Programmers
> Guide for VB5 is included in the learning edition. If there is a Language
Ref.
> and Programmers guide for VB5, I can't find them....
>
> Do you know where they might be found?
>
> LFS
>
>