Developer Express tools - Wot no real demo?

[iGadget]

I'm looking for a powerful tree control for my new questionnaire
application, and the best I have seen so far appears to be the Developer
Express toolset, but they don't release an IDE version for testing!
It seems incredible that a company expects people to invest hundreds of
dollars in a product they can't test in-situ.
Somehow, a precompiled demo application is not quite what I expect for a
development tool.
Does anyone have much experience of this product?

Cheers,
iGadget

[Mike Mitchell]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:05:09 +1000, "iGadget" <iGadget_@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>I'm looking for a powerful tree control for my new questionnaire
>application, and the best I have seen so far appears to be the Developer
>Express toolset, but they don't release an IDE version for testing!
>It seems incredible that a company expects people to invest hundreds of
>dollars in a product they can't test in-situ.
>Somehow, a precompiled demo application is not quite what I expect for a
>development tool.
>Does anyone have much experience of this product?

iGadget, what is wrong with the Windows-supplied TreeView control?

MM

[iGadget]

"Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8v35ru8tl06ei3q96hutsei0ls9qk6eebk@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:05:09 +1000, "iGadget" <iGadget_@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I'm looking for a powerful tree control for my new questionnaire
> >application, and the best I have seen so far appears to be the Developer
> >Express toolset, but they don't release an IDE version for testing!
> >It seems incredible that a company expects people to invest hundreds of
> >dollars in a product they can't test in-situ.
> >Somehow, a precompiled demo application is not quite what I expect for a
> >development tool.
> >Does anyone have much experience of this product?
>
> iGadget, what is wrong with the Windows-supplied TreeView control?

I need to do lots of modification to the visual display of the tree, adding
bracketing of sections of trees and custom images to individual nodes.
I know I could subclass the control and add all this functionality
eventually, but the DevExp control already has all of this functionality
implemented and has a nice set of optional input controls for numbers,
dates, memos etc. so I'd rather not reinherit the wheel (is this a new
saying?) :)

Cheers,
iGadget

[Miha Markic]

LOL

"Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8v35ru8tl06ei3q96hutsei0ls9qk6eebk@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:05:09 +1000, "iGadget" <iGadget_@hotmail.com>
> wrote:

> iGadget, what is wrong with the Windows-supplied TreeView control?

[Miha Markic]

Hi,

Developer Express (I am not an employee) offers 60 days unconditional money
back guarantee instead so you can test and return the product if you like.

--
Miha Markic - DXSquad
www.dxsquad.com, www.spin.si/www/eng

"iGadget" <iGadget_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3db22929$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
> I'm looking for a powerful tree control for my new questionnaire
> application, and the best I have seen so far appears to be the Developer
> Express toolset, but they don't release an IDE version for testing!
> It seems incredible that a company expects people to invest hundreds of
> dollars in a product they can't test in-situ.
> Somehow, a precompiled demo application is not quite what I expect for a
> development tool.
> Does anyone have much experience of this product?
>
> Cheers,
> iGadget
>
>

[iGadget]

OK, thanks.
Do they offer a Component Suite for all their .NET products or anything like
that? I can't see anything on their website, and I would like to buy all of
them :)

Cheers,
iGadget

"Miha Markic" <miham@pleasenospam.spin.si> wrote in message
news:3db3aaae@tnews.web.devx.com...
> Hi,
>
> Developer Express (I am not an employee) offers 60 days unconditional
money
> back guarantee instead so you can test and return the product if you like.
>
> --
> Miha Markic - DXSquad
> www.dxsquad.com, www.spin.si/www/eng
>
> "iGadget" <iGadget_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3db22929$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
> > I'm looking for a powerful tree control for my new questionnaire
> > application, and the best I have seen so far appears to be the Developer
> > Express toolset, but they don't release an IDE version for testing!
> > It seems incredible that a company expects people to invest hundreds of
> > dollars in a product they can't test in-situ.
> > Somehow, a precompiled demo application is not quite what I expect for a
> > development tool.
> > Does anyone have much experience of this product?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > iGadget
> >
> >
>
>

[Miha Markic]

Sure, check under subscriptions...
http://www.devexpress.com/products/subscriptions.asp

Miha

"iGadget" <iGadget_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3db3abed@tnews.web.devx.com...
> OK, thanks.
> Do they offer a Component Suite for all their .NET products or anything
like
> that? I can't see anything on their website, and I would like to buy all
of
> them :)

[iGadget]

Ah, drat.
I was looking under the pricing section... :/

Thanks,
iGadget

"Miha Markic" <miham@pleasenospam.spin.si> wrote in message
news:3db3afe5@tnews.web.devx.com...
> Sure, check under subscriptions...
> http://www.devexpress.com/products/subscriptions.asp
>
> Miha
>
> "iGadget" <iGadget_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3db3abed@tnews.web.devx.com...
> > OK, thanks.
> > Do they offer a Component Suite for all their .NET products or anything
> like
> > that? I can't see anything on their website, and I would like to buy
all
> of
> > them :)
>
>

[Miha Markic]

> Ah, drat.

:)

Miha

[Tim Hitchings \(Infragistics\)]

iGadget wrote:
> I'm looking for a powerful tree control for my new questionnaire
> application, and the best I have seen so far appears to be the
> Developer Express toolset, but they don't release an IDE version for
> testing! It seems incredible that a company expects people to invest
> hundreds of dollars in a product they can't test in-situ.
> Somehow, a precompiled demo application is not quite what I expect
> for a development tool.

I suggest you also look at the Infragistics NetAdvantage suite.
http://www.infragistics.com
It has a tree control for win forms as well as a tree for ASP.NET.

[iGadget]

"Tim Hitchings (Infragistics)" <productmanager@infragistics.com> wrote in
message news:3db3f19a$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
> iGadget wrote:
> > I'm looking for a powerful tree control for my new questionnaire
> > application, and the best I have seen so far appears to be the
> > Developer Express toolset, but they don't release an IDE version for
> > testing! It seems incredible that a company expects people to invest
> > hundreds of dollars in a product they can't test in-situ.
> > Somehow, a precompiled demo application is not quite what I expect
> > for a development tool.
>
> I suggest you also look at the Infragistics NetAdvantage suite.
> http://www.infragistics.com
> It has a tree control for win forms as well as a tree for ASP.NET.

Thanks, I did indeed look at that one, but my requirements are for something
that is heavily (and easily) visually customisable, and there is no mention
of any event handling for that purpose. I will download a trial copy though,
and check it out anyway.

Thanks,
iGadget

[Tim Hitchings \(Infragistics\)]

iGadget wrote:
>> I suggest you also look at the Infragistics NetAdvantage Suite.
>> http://www.infragistics.com
>> It has a tree control for win forms as well as a tree for ASP.NET.
>
> Thanks, I did indeed look at that one, but my requirements are for
> something that is heavily (and easily) visually customisable, and
> there is no mention of any event handling for that purpose. I will
> download a trial copy though, and check it out anyway.

Please do check out the full working trial as you can modify the appearance
quite heavily.
See this page:
http://www.infragistics.com/products/dotnet/netwinformsplf.asp
and this
http://www.infragistics.com/corporate/whitepapers/netwinforms.asp
for details on what you can do with all of our winforms products.

Try our peer-to-peer newsgroups
http://www.infragistics.com/support/newsgroups.asp
And use our support
http://www.infragistics.com/support/supportcenter.asp
if you have futher questions

I'd also like to suggest that you compare our price of the NetAdvantage
Suite with subscription which includes source.

[iGadget]

Ah-ha - I didn't find that page of info.
I'll look into this further.

Many thanks,
iGadget

"Tim Hitchings (Infragistics)" <productmanager@infragistics.com> wrote in
message news:3db403ba$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
> iGadget wrote:
> >> I suggest you also look at the Infragistics NetAdvantage Suite.
> >> http://www.infragistics.com
> >> It has a tree control for win forms as well as a tree for ASP.NET.
> >
> > Thanks, I did indeed look at that one, but my requirements are for
> > something that is heavily (and easily) visually customisable, and
> > there is no mention of any event handling for that purpose. I will
> > download a trial copy though, and check it out anyway.
>
> Please do check out the full working trial as you can modify the
appearance
> quite heavily.
> See this page:
> http://www.infragistics.com/products/dotnet/netwinformsplf.asp
> and this
> http://www.infragistics.com/corporate/whitepapers/netwinforms.asp
> for details on what you can do with all of our winforms products.
>
> Try our peer-to-peer newsgroups
> http://www.infragistics.com/support/newsgroups.asp
> And use our support
> http://www.infragistics.com/support/supportcenter.asp
> if you have futher questions
>
> I'd also like to suggest that you compare our price of the NetAdvantage
> Suite with subscription which includes source.
>
>

[John Butler]

"iGadget" <iGadget_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3db3339a$1@tnews.web.devx.com...

> I need to do lots of modification to the visual display of the tree,
adding
> bracketing of sections of trees and custom images to individual nodes.
> I know I could subclass the control and add all this functionality
> eventually, but the DevExp control already has all of this functionality
> implemented and has a nice set of optional input controls for numbers,
> dates, memos etc. so I'd rather not reinherit the wheel (is this a new
> saying?) :)
>
> Cheers,
> iGadget

Mike is trolling for reasons to lambast vb.net...he's not genuinely
concerned about your problem. Are you Mike????

rgds
John Butler

[John Butler]

"Miha Markic" <miham@pleasenospam.spin.si> wrote in message
news:3db3aaae@tnews.web.devx.com...
> Hi,
>
> Developer Express (I am not an employee) offers 60 days unconditional
money
> back guarantee instead so you can test and return the product if you like.
>
> --
> Miha Markic - DXSquad
> www.dxsquad.com, www.spin.si/www/eng


Not good enough...I would also like to demo something rather than buy and
return it for a refund.... I know it is more schlepp to do a demo...but with
DemoShield or something...it's not that hard! Experience has shown me once
someone has my money, it's harder to get it back than to simply un-install a
demo....even if it is the banks that mess up the transaction or whatever.
I'm sure they're very good and all that...but a foreign credit card
transaction could be messed up in many ways.

Their compenents look interesting...but their ASP.NET stuff isn't there yet
either, and no demo...so I've stayed away. Others probably have too...

rgds
John Butler

[Miha Markic]

> Not good enough...I would also like to demo something rather than buy and
> return it for a refund.... I know it is more schlepp to do a demo...but
with
> DemoShield or something...it's not that hard! Experience has shown me once
> someone has my money, it's harder to get it back than to simply un-install
a
> demo....even if it is the banks that mess up the transaction or whatever.
> I'm sure they're very good and all that...but a foreign credit card
> transaction could be messed up in many ways.

DevExpress has very good reputation, so I wouldn't worry for that part.

> Their compenents look interesting...but their ASP.NET stuff isn't there
yet
> either, and no demo...so I've stayed away. Others probably have too...

Just out of curiosity, what are you missing in ASP.NET?

Miha

[Mike Mitchell]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:33:45 +0100, "John Butler"
<nospamjrbutler@btinternet.com> wrote:

>Mike is trolling for reasons to lambast vb.net...he's not genuinely
>concerned about your problem. Are you Mike????

Trolling is an American term. I am simply highlighting the throwaway
nature of much of what comes "in the box" because it is just so much
window dressing instead of the real McCoy. To get the real McCoy you
often have to buy add-ons. My beef with the TreeView control is that
it is so frustratingly obtuse! We often buy third party components
because they come with decent help, or even (e.g. VideoSoft) printed
user guides one can read on the bog. Often, too, those TP components
are far easier to work with than standard controls. VideoSoft produced
some of the best, price-effective tools around, and their support
staff were always exemplary in wanting to assist. This kind of service
is worth paying money for.

Therefore, I was only expecting iGadget to confirm my thoughts here
and I'm now additionally grateful to you for helping me to showcase
the issue.

MM

[Mike Mitchell]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:39:47 +0100, "John Butler"
<nospamjrbutler@btinternet.com> wrote:

>Their compenents look interesting...but their ASP.NET stuff isn't there yet
>either, and no demo...so I've stayed away. Others probably have too...

They could follow the example set by VideoSoft. That company's trial
offer extended to all products without a time limit and the demo
restriction only consisted in nag screens appearing. All other
functionality was available and verifiable.

MM

[rmeklo]

VideoSoft is gone, I think your whole message could be put in the past tense.

We often buy third party components
>because they come with decent help, or even (e.g. VideoSoft) printed
>user guides one can read on the bog. Often, too, those TP components
>are far easier to work with than standard controls.
Which were often crippleware.

VideoSoft produced
>some of the best, price-effective tools around, and their support
>staff were always exemplary in wanting to assist.
No more.

This kind of service
>is worth paying money for.
Good luck finding it in the future.

[iGadget]

To be honest, I played around the other day (like the complete .NET newbie
that I am) and created a custom clock (yeah, boring digital, not analogue...
yet) which showed the time in user definable format and even generated
change events.
It took me about 30mins in total, but showed that it was suprisingly easy to
create simple addons, and since it's just a little DLL file that doesn't
need registereing, it can be included with any app suprisingly easily.
I _hope_ that companies will do this sort of thing for us in the future,
taking very simple but useful requirements and publishing low cost
solutions, as VideoSoft did in the past (and yes, I still have some of their
products).
I think Mabry are now the equivalent company, so I suppose we keep an eye on
them to see what they produce.

I find the tree controls in VB all a little awkward to work with, although I
have to say that the VB.NET one seems a little easier because you can add or
remove whole chunks of tree without the OCX version issue of adding or
moving one node at a time.

Having said that, the two control libraries I'm looking at simplify the
process even more! I'll let you all know what I find.

Cheers,
iGadget

"Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ck7arusrsnue7lfbmu7brnlarmbatj92cm@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:33:45 +0100, "John Butler"
> <nospamjrbutler@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> >Mike is trolling for reasons to lambast vb.net...he's not genuinely
> >concerned about your problem. Are you Mike????
>
> Trolling is an American term. I am simply highlighting the throwaway
> nature of much of what comes "in the box" because it is just so much
> window dressing instead of the real McCoy. To get the real McCoy you
> often have to buy add-ons. My beef with the TreeView control is that
> it is so frustratingly obtuse! We often buy third party components
> because they come with decent help, or even (e.g. VideoSoft) printed
> user guides one can read on the bog. Often, too, those TP components
> are far easier to work with than standard controls. VideoSoft produced
> some of the best, price-effective tools around, and their support
> staff were always exemplary in wanting to assist. This kind of service
> is worth paying money for.
>
> Therefore, I was only expecting iGadget to confirm my thoughts here
> and I'm now additionally grateful to you for helping me to showcase
> the issue.
>
> MM

[Mike Mitchell]

On 22 Oct 2002 05:44:21 -0700, "rmeklo" <rbmeklo@attbi.com> wrote:

>VideoSoft is gone, I think your whole message could be put in the past tense.

I used the name VideoSoft because it was the company from which we
purchased software at the tme. Now I believe they are part of
ComponentOne.

MM

[John Butler]

"Miha Markic" <miham@pleasenospam.spin.si> wrote in message
news:3db4f749$1@tnews.web.devx.com...
> Just out of curiosity, what are you missing in ASP.NET?

Not much really. I still believe ASP.NET is the best thing in the whole .NET
stable. However, I'm always looking for components or tools that will make
my life easier...since I try to focus on the end result. Sure, I could
charge my customer to custom develop some enhanced thingummy , but if it
already exists....then I'd rather save them the money and me the time.

For example....try and iterate through the Microsoft Webtree and try find a
particular node!....great fun. To find a Tree that allows you to effectively
populate it and then find a particular node is a challenge...Which is where
Infragistics, ComponentOne and others step in and do the job properly, not
half-heartedly like MS.

I'm not sure whether they (MS) do it on purpose, but they sure leave
Jumbo-sized holes in functionality sometimes...which are only filled by
Third pary vendors.

Rgds
John Butler

[Miha Markic]

Hi John,

I thought you were referring to DevExpress's components with this statement
"Their compenents look interesting...but their ASP.NET stuff isn't there
yet"
that is why I asked you what are you missing :)

Miha

[Mike Mitchell]

On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:30:12 +0100, "John Butler"
<nospamjrbutler@btinternet.com> wrote:

>I'm not sure whether they (MS) do it on purpose, but they sure leave
>Jumbo-sized holes in functionality sometimes...which are only filled by
>Third pary vendors.

I think they do it because they can't bear to be left out of anything.
Like the guy who wanders up to the group clustered around the coffee
machine or water cooler and just butts in, even though he hasn't a
clue what anyone's talking about.

They want to be seen to be participating. It's a mindset they've been
locked into for years. That is why the "OS" is far more than an OS
ever needs to be. But this dabbling with bits of gloss masquerading as
functionality makes me wonder how much dabbling also goes on under the
surface, allowing parts of the OS that matter to be signed off before
they've really been done properly. Could be why Bill G is so keen on
introducing trustworthiness to his coders, i.e. he knows just what
goes on under the surface!

MM