furure of plain old code writing in the web age

[Richard Curzon]

Some questions on raw coding. Coding used to be everything in corporate
desktop world. On the web, it's less of the picture, along with the
corporate marketing, and corp graphics specialists often dictating the
screen layout and flow.

Speed:

With the web bringing us back to more centralized computing, how important
is efficient code going to be? Do people plan to use more ATL/C++ on the
server side for efficiency? Or will new VB7 features fend off any need to
look to C++ for more gas? I think yes, what do you think?

SOAP vs Browser:

How many future corporate apps will use the browser as their client window,
and how many will look like exactly like current VB apps only they use HTTP
SOAP for services?

To me, SOAP was a savior. it was finally a big push to migrate the current
corporate programming model to the web, WITHOUT having to go to the browser
as client. A web browser is just the thing for mass marketing, general
public sites, but for the typical expert users of a corporate app, it is way
too awkward to get the job done IMO.

Richard.

[JasonL]

Richard,
I'm just starting to take my VB skills to the web via ASP/VBScript. I'm
amazed at the so-called professional sites' lack of application design. It
seems that anybody who could buy a book or glom someone's HTML source has
proclaimed themselves web designer. Yikess!!
I have to believe that for businesses and/or business type web applications
the shift is going toward more traditional programming practices. Already
with interactivity like DHTML and database support you have to know and/or
learn good programming. I feel (somewhat) for the graphic designer or HTML
hobbyist who has found a web page showing him/her how to create a connection
to a database. Sounds easy enough, then they drown - see the posts on this
group's web newsgroups. I read an interesting thought about the information
glut the web has produced. The author(s) said that it is so dangerous
because many have easy access to limited information, yet are left feeling
that they are 'experts'.
As for VB7, I hope that's what is coming. The web should be like any other
more 'traditional' thin-client, which require some fast, flexible server
side applications. That is definitely not the territory of the
aforementioned artist / hobbyist.
I can't comment on SOAP, since (I hate to admit this) I've heard of it but
don't have a clue what it does.(Perhaps you could point me at a good
overview?) At the moment I rely heavily on ASP to support browser based
intranet apps. I do have to admit that, programming deficiencies aside, I
like the graphics interface some web designers/artists are producing. It
beats looking at the same old grey background and blocky/kludgy command
buttons all day. A nice blend of good app design, solid programming and a
flashy interface is great for consumer oriented, web-based apps. I doubt,
however, that they really have a place in the corporate environment. Simply
because I'm not an artist and I doubt my boss would pay for one to liven up
my apps!
-JasonL
Richard Curzon <richardcurzon@home.com> wrote in message
news:394e6435$1@news.devx.com...
> Some questions on raw coding. Coding used to be everything in corporate
> desktop world. On the web, it's less of the picture, along with the
> corporate marketing, and corp graphics specialists often dictating the
> screen layout and flow.
>
> Speed:
>
> With the web bringing us back to more centralized computing, how important
> is efficient code going to be? Do people plan to use more ATL/C++ on the
> server side for efficiency? Or will new VB7 features fend off any need to
> look to C++ for more gas? I think yes, what do you think?
>
> SOAP vs Browser:
>
> How many future corporate apps will use the browser as their client
window,
> and how many will look like exactly like current VB apps only they use
HTTP
> SOAP for services?
>
> To me, SOAP was a savior. it was finally a big push to migrate the
current
> corporate programming model to the web, WITHOUT having to go to the
browser
> as client. A web browser is just the thing for mass marketing, general
> public sites, but for the typical expert users of a corporate app, it is
way
> too awkward to get the job done IMO.
>
> Richard.
>
>
>
>
>

[Richard Curzon]

> the shift is going toward more traditional programming practices. Already

Microsoft will probably continue to make it as easy as possibler for people
to get something working, anything, and get that "I'm a real programmer
feeling". That's always worked to bring in the business.

For web sites the proof will be in the pudding, if the site can't handle the
traffic, the programmers who built it couldn't handle the job, call in
reinforcements!

> because many have easy access to limited information, yet are left feeling
> that they are 'experts'.

It's not only true of VB. I have had a lot of discussions with C++
"programmers" who deride VB, based on the fact it has no inheritance for
example. Yet talk to them at any length, and they have never heard of
fragile base class. They still deride VB7 for having single inheritance (we
expect). But just ask if they are aware of MI issues like a base class
included twice, once in each parent of an MI hierarchy, and how and why you
need to control this with virtual base classes... only the favorite MI issue
in all the C++ books. Nope, no clue, eyes glaze over. There are as many
crappy C++ programmers who only know the buzz words, not the buzz... as
there are crappy VB programmers. (But any crappy C++ programmer is sharper
than any good VB programmer, ain't it the truth <g>... anyway....)

Similar issue. You write the program, but who knows who will maintain it.
Should you avoid e.g. using bit arithmetic on arrays of integers? I
recently had another "programmer" see my bit arithmetic and tell me it was a
dumb thing to do, it was too complicated to use bit math. Told me I should
have done the very thing I was trying to avoid, having a dozen arrays of
booleans. Bit math too complicated? Just how programming-illiterate do
you have to figure your maintenance coders are going to be? In the big
picture it's a serious question: does a corporate manager wanting you
writing code that an average programmer won't know how to maintain.

But I think any programmer that respects "the calling" will write the best
code she/he can. Not aiming for complexity, but not avoiding it just
because a "more average programmer" wouldn't write it that way, or might net
even comprehend it so easily.

Just by doing that, you help raise the standard. If they can't maintain it,
let them figure it out, read a book for a change.

>SOAP

SOAP (simple object access protocol) exposes an object over the HTTP
protocol, the communication layer that underlies HTML on the web. In
Project References, you'd be able to navigate to a URL just the same as you
now navigate to an ActiveX file on your drive to add a reference. Objects
exposed this way will support all the convenient support features we are
used to, including intellisense, browsing, and help info. There are already
lots of references if you just search on msdn.microsoft.com, probably even
on yahoo by now.

Basically it's at least ONE case were Microsoft knuckled under to common
sense and renounced a basically proprietary method (DCOM) in favor of a more
non-proprietary method (SOAP).

regards
Richard.

[Andy]

"Richard Curzon" <richardcurzon@home.com> wrote:
>Some questions on raw coding. Coding used to be everything in corporate
>desktop world. On the web, it's less of the picture, along with the
>corporate marketing, and corp graphics specialists often dictating the
>screen layout and flow.
>
I'm not sure I agree with the above. The demise of coding has be seen as
around the corner for 25 years now that I know of. I find that a web system
with a fair amount of functionality takes far more coding than applications
put together in 1980's vintage 4GL's required. However, I will have to agree
that the event driven nature of web coding makes it easier to put together
in some ways. Of course, 15 years of improvements in speed and enhanced
development environments has helped to.

>Speed:
>
>With the web bringing us back to more centralized computing, how important
>is efficient code going to be? Do people plan to use more ATL/C++ on the
>server side for efficiency? Or will new VB7 features fend off any need
to
>look to C++ for more gas? I think yes, what do you think?
>
IMHO there are very few web applications were C++ is required for speed.
Clean coding is far more important than choice of language. Regardless
of languages, efficient algorithms are crucial. There are still cases where
C++ is needed, but there are many more cases where good data design, intelligently
written queries and efficient coding will do the job regardless of development
language. This type of coding is as important now as it ever was.

Andy
>... Richard

[James Stento]

I think "good" coding is as important now as ever. Maybe even more so, since
we're always trying to cram more information down the pipe and at faster
speeds. However, "good coding" takes on different meanings in different environments.
It's always a question of using the right tool for the job at hand.

The C++ vs. VB debate will be ongoing for some time yet. The truth of the
matter is that VB lets a developer get up and running faster. The GUI interface
is easier to build and COM objects are easier to build. Is the code as small
and fast as C++? Usually not. In many instances though, that doesn't matter.
If an IT group has VB experience and no C++ experience, does it make sense
to develop in C++ (or vice versa)? Probably not. I've been a "C++ guy" for
many years, but I recognize the value of VB for the jobs I'm doing now -
mostly Internet related. And I'm very excited about the new features in VB7
because now I can finally implement my designs the way I would in C++.

I think the transition from C++ to VB is happening like the transition from
assembler to C many years ago. While there are still needs for the speed
and efficiency of C++, those needs are directed toward more detailed, low-level
functionality. In an application where the data source (DBMS, file, etc.)
is usually the bottleneck, does C++ in the middle-tier really buy you that
much? The fact remains that VB is just easier to use and enables faster development.
In a market where technical skills are hard to find, VB makes more business
sense.

As far as level of skill for programmers, no matter what the tools are, programming
language or hammer and nails, there are going to be people with good skills
and people with no skills. VB makes it easier for people with no skills to
get in the game. In a corporate environment where tech. people are hard already
swamped, what's wrong with a business guy building a simple, little app.
that helps him get his work done? It may develop into something bigger and
more useful for the entire organization. (Of course, none of wants to have
to support this guy's app. though:-)

In the growing world of distributed systems, SOAP is an important step. I
don't know what the final incarnation will look like, but SOAP gives us a
way to distribute data and make business services available in a truly cross-platform
manner. It basically comes down to passing XML packets over HTTP. The XML
packets may contain data or they may contain messages that initiate a business
process on the server. Since DCOM never really made it outside of MS operating
systems, SOAP provides a way for MS and non-MS systems to interoperate. Think
about the security implications though - Yikes!

Sorry for the long lecture :-) More thoughts?

Jamie

"Richard Curzon" <richardcurzon@home.com> wrote:
>Some questions on raw coding. Coding used to be everything in corporate
>desktop world. On the web, it's less of the picture, along with the
>corporate marketing, and corp graphics specialists often dictating the
>screen layout and flow.
>
>Speed:
>
>With the web bringing us back to more centralized computing, how important
>is efficient code going to be? Do people plan to use more ATL/C++ on the
>server side for efficiency? Or will new VB7 features fend off any need
to
>look to C++ for more gas? I think yes, what do you think?
>
>SOAP vs Browser:
>
>How many future corporate apps will use the browser as their client window,
>and how many will look like exactly like current VB apps only they use HTTP
>SOAP for services?
>
>To me, SOAP was a savior. it was finally a big push to migrate the current
>corporate programming model to the web, WITHOUT having to go to the browser
>as client. A web browser is just the thing for mass marketing, general
>public sites, but for the typical expert users of a corporate app, it is
way
>too awkward to get the job done IMO.
>
>Richard.
>
>
>
>
>

[Johnny]

I would like to see statistics on that. I would like to know how many people
call themselves programmers, when all they do is HTML. How many people say
that theve written some kind of special program, when all they did is drop
an ActiveX control on the form. It's funny. As far as the C++ vs VB war
that has been waging ever since the C++ guys realized their language was
dying, there is no winner. Programming languages are like carpenters tools.
You use a hammer to hit a nail and a saw to cut wood. It just so happens
that IT/Database/Web programming happens to be the craze right now. C++
cannot hold a candle to VB in these catagorys. The reason is simple, VB
makes it easy to very quick write code. Be it good or bad. C++ is very
slow at developing code, even slower at developing good code. Then again
if I was working at NASA, I may consider C++ :)

Johnny

[Pete]

"Johnny" <jezzell@lendingtree.com> wrote:
>
>I would like to see statistics on that. I would like to know how many people
>call themselves programmers, when all they do is HTML. How many people
say
>that theve written some kind of special program, when all they did is drop
>an ActiveX control on the form. It's funny. As far as the C++ vs VB war
>that has been waging ever since the C++ guys realized their language was
>dying, there is no winner. Programming languages are like carpenters tools.
> You use a hammer to hit a nail and a saw to cut wood. It just so happens
>that IT/Database/Web programming happens to be the craze right now. C++
>cannot hold a candle to VB in these catagorys. The reason is simple, VB
>makes it easy to very quick write code. Be it good or bad. C++ is very
>slow at developing code, even slower at developing good code. Then again
>if I was working at NASA, I may consider C++ :)
>
>Johnny
>

We are developing a B2B site where the main app requires solving nonlinear
optimization with thousands of variables and gazillions of db data accesses.
That, for EACH client! Some lightweight controls/pages were actually done
with ASP/VB, but most of the heavy stuff simply had to be written in C++/ISAPI.


Lots of management pressure to have it done quickly, "why are you not using
VB?", and so on. Well they had a pilot written in VB and compared running
times in a test case.... :-)) and :-))
After that no more complaints about using C++....

What was that again about C++ dying?

just my 2 cents,
Pete

[Jason Langston]

Pete <ps@uol.com.br> wrote :
> Lots of management pressure to have it done quickly, "why are you not
using
> VB?", and so on. Well they had a pilot written in VB and compared running
> times in a test case.... :-)) and :-))
> After that no more complaints about using C++....
>
> What was that again about C++ dying?
Yeah, yeah rub it in ... well, supposedly in a year or so (.NET) us VB'ers
will be able to keep up with you, and we'll develop faster ;-)