String Functions [Archive] - DevX.com Forums

Karl E. Peterson

08-31-2000, 04:30 PM

Hi Rob --

> > Based on what I've heard so far, VB7 still retains anachronisms like Trim,
> > Left, Mid, etc. Why? Shouldn't all these functions be replaced by the String
> > object's intrinsic properties and methods?
>
> Ho! That would be a lark. The current ruckus about breaking existing code
> isn't enough for you? I'm sure they're there for compatibility.

Heh, "compatibility." That's a good one! <bg>

> (personally, I'm all for hosing old code entirely for purity's sake, but I
> think I'm in the great minority <g>)

Yep. As soon as they break native data types, they might as well just chuck the
entire language, and hose it completely. Absolutely agreed.

Later... Karl
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

Jay Glynn

08-31-2000, 07:09 PM

Gee Karl, do I sense a tad bit of sarcasm in your message???

> Yep. As soon as they break native data types, they might as well just
chuck the
> entire language, and hose it completely. Absolutely agreed.
>
> Later... Karl
> --
> http://www.mvps.org/vb
>
>
>
>
>

Karl E. Peterson

08-31-2000, 07:17 PM

Hi Jay --

> Gee Karl, do I sense a tad bit of sarcasm in your message???
>
> > Yep. As soon as they break native data types, they might as well just chuck the
> > entire language, and hose it completely. Absolutely agreed.

Heheheh... Think so? <g>

Naw! I really did mean it. It's so hosed as it is, they really ought to just finish
the job, instead of leaving little flecks of birdsh!t here and there, eh? :-)

Later... Karl
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

Jay Glynn

08-31-2000, 11:30 PM

Well, I do think they should finish the job. I flamed you a bit on the
listserver (nothing personal), but I think VB needs to take a step in one
direction or the other. The more I look, the more I think that MSFT is still
trying to straddle that fence of an easy tool to use and a powerful
developement tool. I don't think you can have it both ways. Everyone wanted
inheritance. Great, but your point about removing the ptr functions is well
taken. Is there a way to replace that functionality? I say **** the
torpedoes and the marketing geeks that think they are programmers because
they can get a message box to pop up. Allow the unsafe code, allow the
operator overload, allow VB to really become the tool that it's capable of.
All of the old code is already broke, so their isn't anything holding it
back.

OK, I'll step off the soapbox now...

Karl E. Peterson <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:39aee59c@news.devx.com...
> Hi Jay --
>
> > Gee Karl, do I sense a tad bit of sarcasm in your message???
> >
> > > Yep. As soon as they break native data types, they might as well just
chuck the
> > > entire language, and hose it completely. Absolutely agreed.
>
> Heheheh... Think so? <g>
>
> Naw! I really did mean it. It's so hosed as it is, they really ought to
just finish
> the job, instead of leaving little flecks of birdsh!t here and there, eh?
:-)
>
> Later... Karl
> --
> http://www.mvps.org/vb
>
>
>
>
>

Sam Spencer

08-31-2000, 11:53 PM

We are providing the string functions to offer backwards compatability and
familiarity to Visual Basic users. Most of the Visual Basic Runtime
functions are implemented using the main runtime functions, some are simple
wrappers, others are more complex. For example the Visual Basic versions of
the functions will use the current locale for the application when
performing locale sensitive operations. You are free to use the Visual Basic
functions if you wish, or you can use the functions in the main runtime, or
both, the choice is yours.

Sam

<Patrick Troughton Patrick> wrote in message
news:39aeb0e9$1@news.devx.com...
>
> Based on what I've heard so far, VB7 still retains anachronisms like Trim,
> Left, Mid, etc. Why? Shouldn't all these functions be replaced by the
String
> object's intrinsic properties and methods?
>
> /Pat

James D. Foxall

09-01-2000, 10:08 AM

Hi Jay,

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here. I can't believe how much
things have changed. I wish I could be there to see the look on the millions
of faces when they open a VB6 project with . Net and (assuming the migration
tools do a good job), open the code they've been working on all week and say
'what the **** is this and who wrote it?'. They might as well have just
changed the name like they did with C#. Please note, I'm really excited
about VB.Net, but it is pretty much a different language. I find it
interesting that they limit functionality so that we don't hurt ourselves,
but that they give us free-threading that's as simple to use as about 4
lines of code.

Getting used to the new data types, particularly where the old name is used
for a new type (Long?) will take a while to get used to.

Should get fun....! :)

--

James D. Foxall
Microsoft Certified Solution Developer
Vice President - Tigerpaw Software (MCSP) www.tigerpawsoftware.com

"Jay Glynn" <jay_glynn@agla.com> wrote in message
news:39af1db9$1@news.devx.com...
> Well, I do think they should finish the job. I flamed you a bit on the
> listserver (nothing personal), but I think VB needs to take a step in one
> direction or the other. The more I look, the more I think that MSFT is
still
> trying to straddle that fence of an easy tool to use and a powerful
> developement tool. I don't think you can have it both ways. Everyone
wanted
> inheritance. Great, but your point about removing the ptr functions is
well
> taken. Is there a way to replace that functionality? I say **** the
> torpedoes and the marketing geeks that think they are programmers because
> they can get a message box to pop up. Allow the unsafe code, allow the
> operator overload, allow VB to really become the tool that it's capable
of.
> All of the old code is already broke, so their isn't anything holding it
> back.
>
> OK, I'll step off the soapbox now...
>
> Karl E. Peterson <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
> news:39aee59c@news.devx.com...
> > Hi Jay --
> >
> > > Gee Karl, do I sense a tad bit of sarcasm in your message???
> > >
> > > > Yep. As soon as they break native data types, they might as well
just
> chuck the
> > > > entire language, and hose it completely. Absolutely agreed.
> >
> > Heheheh... Think so? <g>
> >
> > Naw! I really did mean it. It's so hosed as it is, they really ought
to
> just finish
> > the job, instead of leaving little flecks of birdsh!t here and there,
eh?
> :-)
> >
> > Later... Karl
> > --
> > http://www.mvps.org/vb
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

James D. Foxall

09-01-2000, 10:09 AM

Hi Sam,

Can you tell us if there is a performance difference between the two?

--

James D. Foxall
Microsoft Certified Solution Developer
Vice President - Tigerpaw Software (MCSP) www.tigerpawsoftware.com

"Sam Spencer" <samsp@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:39af25d6$1@news.devx.com...
> We are providing the string functions to offer backwards compatability and
> familiarity to Visual Basic users. Most of the Visual Basic Runtime
> functions are implemented using the main runtime functions, some are
simple
> wrappers, others are more complex. For example the Visual Basic versions
of
> the functions will use the current locale for the application when
> performing locale sensitive operations. You are free to use the Visual
Basic
> functions if you wish, or you can use the functions in the main runtime,
or
> both, the choice is yours.
>
> Sam
>
> <Patrick Troughton Patrick> wrote in message
> news:39aeb0e9$1@news.devx.com...
> >
> > Based on what I've heard so far, VB7 still retains anachronisms like
Trim,
> > Left, Mid, etc. Why? Shouldn't all these functions be replaced by the
> String
> > object's intrinsic properties and methods?
> >
> > /Pat
>
>

Patrick Troughton Patrick

09-01-2000, 10:32 AM

Backwards compatability was thrown out the window a long time ago. Why not
go all the way and do it right?

/Pat

"Sam Spencer" <samsp@microsoft.com> wrote:
>We are providing the string functions to offer backwards compatability and
>familiarity to Visual Basic users. Most of the Visual Basic Runtime
>functions are implemented using the main runtime functions, some are simple
>wrappers, others are more complex. For example the Visual Basic versions
of
>the functions will use the current locale for the application when
>performing locale sensitive operations. You are free to use the Visual Basic
>functions if you wish, or you can use the functions in the main runtime,
or
>both, the choice is yours.
>
>Sam
>
><Patrick Troughton Patrick> wrote in message
>news:39aeb0e9$1@news.devx.com...
>>
>> Based on what I've heard so far, VB7 still retains anachronisms like Trim,
>> Left, Mid, etc. Why? Shouldn't all these functions be replaced by the
>String
>> object's intrinsic properties and methods?
>>
>> /Pat
>
>

Karl E. Peterson

09-01-2000, 12:42 PM

Hi Jay --

> Well, I do think they should finish the job.

Agreed.

> I flamed you a bit on the listserver (nothing personal),

Ah, yes, that _was_ you, wasn't it? <g> Hey, flame on. Just be accurate.

(That list's just entirely too uptight, isn't it?)

> but I think VB needs to take a step in one
> direction or the other.

Agreed.

> The more I look, the more I think that MSFT is still
> trying to straddle that fence of an easy tool to use and a powerful
> developement tool. I don't think you can have it both ways.

I think you can, and the fence straddling is the problem. Contradiction? Nope.
Sitting on a fence *hurts*, especially if you have one leg on each side. There's no
reason they can't have a full-blown, balls-out language that's still easy to ramp up
with. They had the beginnings of it with VB5/6, but seem to be heading the other
direction with 7. I view the attitude above as a simple lack of imagination and/or
courage.

> Everyone wanted inheritance.

Yeah, go figure, huh? <g>

> Great, but your point about removing the ptr functions is well
> taken.

Didja notice how they *all* shut-up (heh, reviewing the list, you too! <g>) everytime
that question was (re)raised? Kept hearing the BS throw-away line, "there's still
the API!" Well, what the heck good is that, without the ability to pass pointers
around, hmmm? No one's answering that, yet.

> Is there a way to replace that functionality? I say **** the
> torpedoes and the marketing geeks that think they are programmers because
> they can get a message box to pop up. Allow the unsafe code, allow the
> operator overload, allow VB to really become the tool that it's capable of.

Yes!

> All of the old code is already broke, so their isn't anything holding it
> back.

AMEN, Brother!!!

> OK, I'll step off the soapbox now...

No, please don't. It suits you. ;-)

(Just keep that flamethrower pointed at MS, rather than the guy who poked you until
you pulled the trigger. <bg>)

Later... Karl
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

Karl E. Peterson

09-01-2000, 12:53 PM

Hi Sam --

> We are providing the string functions to offer backwards compatability and
> familiarity to Visual Basic users.

Forgive the group, but you must realize just how disingenuous that sounds, right?
Please inform the marketeers that this message just ain't gonna fly with the masses.

> Most of the Visual Basic Runtime
> functions are implemented using the main runtime functions, some are simple
> wrappers, others are more complex. For example the Visual Basic versions of
> the functions will use the current locale for the application when
> performing locale sensitive operations.

Now _this_ is interesting. Will these differences be highlighted in the docs? This
is very important information to be aware of!

Thanks... Karl
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

Michael $michka$ Kaplan

09-01-2000, 01:08 PM

"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:39afdd15@news.devx.com...
> > For example the Visual Basic versions of
> > the functions will use the current locale for the application when
> > performing locale sensitive operations.
>
> Now _this_ is interesting. Will these differences be highlighted in the
docs? This
> is very important information to be aware of!

I was asked to have a "backup" session discussing these issues at VSLive in
Orlando, and I submitted one for SF next year. May as well tell people
eventually. :-)

--
MichKa

random junk of dubious value at the
multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
a new book on internationalization in VB at
http://www.i18nWithVB.com/

Karl E. Peterson

09-01-2000, 02:33 PM

Hi Michka --

> > > For example the Visual Basic versions of
> > > the functions will use the current locale for the application when
> > > performing locale sensitive operations.
> >
> > Now _this_ is interesting. Will these differences be highlighted in the docs?
> > This is very important information to be aware of!
>
> I was asked to have a "backup" session discussing these issues at VSLive in
> Orlando, and I submitted one for SF next year. May as well tell people
> eventually. :-)

Backup, huh? Yeah, who cares about this locale crap, anyway? <g>

What intriqued me was the use of "for example" above. I wondered what other sorts of
"complexity" Sam was alluding to. Enquiring minds, damit. <g>

Later... Karl
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

Michael $michka$ Kaplan

09-01-2000, 03:29 PM

Well, it was interesting.... I offered it up as a session because I was told
they were not planning on covering it but had no specific reasons to not
want to. They were interested, but they already have a full schedule.... so
it became a backup session.

I am sure it will end up in VBPJ eventually but Patrick has me on the hook
for other articles for the next few months, so it will have to wait till
next year some time.

--
MichKa

random junk of dubious value at the
multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
a new book on internationalization in VB at
http://www.i18nWithVB.com/

"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:39aff49c@news.devx.com...
> Hi Michka --
>
> > > > For example the Visual Basic versions of
> > > > the functions will use the current locale for the application when
> > > > performing locale sensitive operations.
> > >
> > > Now _this_ is interesting. Will these differences be highlighted in
the docs?
> > > This is very important information to be aware of!
> >
> > I was asked to have a "backup" session discussing these issues at VSLive
in
> > Orlando, and I submitted one for SF next year. May as well tell people
> > eventually. :-)
>
> Backup, huh? Yeah, who cares about this locale crap, anyway? <g>
>
> What intriqued me was the use of "for example" above. I wondered what
other sorts of
> "complexity" Sam was alluding to. Enquiring minds, damit. <g>
>
> Later... Karl
> --
> http://www.mvps.org/vb
>
>
>

Karl E. Peterson

09-01-2000, 04:55 PM

Hi Michka --

> Well, it was interesting.... I offered it up as a session because I was told
> they were not planning on covering it but had no specific reasons to not
> want to.

There's a *ringing* endorsement, if ever there were! <g>

> I am sure it will end up in VBPJ eventually but Patrick has me on the hook
> for other articles for the next few months, so it will have to wait till
> next year some time.

I still want to know what else these "wrapper" calls are doing. Good stuff!

Later... Karl
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

Michael $michka$ Kaplan

09-01-2000, 07:16 PM

Well, since they were deadset against *any* non-MS speakers, the fact that
they were not unwilling to consider it for topic coverage was signficant. Of
course I am sure the fact that it would give me a chance to be really
positive about VB.Net may have been a factor. <eg>

Are you going to be there? We could talk about it over a drink or four,
perhaps? :-)

It is one part about VB.Net that I am actually excited about, which makes
the afct that they are not presenting on it kind of sad and nerve-wracking,
actually!

--
MichKa

random junk of dubious value at the
multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
a new book on internationalization in VB at
http://www.i18nWithVB.com/

"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:39b015cd$1@news.devx.com...
> Hi Michka --
>
> > Well, it was interesting.... I offered it up as a session because I was
told
> > they were not planning on covering it but had no specific reasons to not
> > want to.
>
> There's a *ringing* endorsement, if ever there were! <g>
>
> > I am sure it will end up in VBPJ eventually but Patrick has me on the
hook
> > for other articles for the next few months, so it will have to wait till
> > next year some time.
>
> I still want to know what else these "wrapper" calls are doing. Good
stuff!
>
> Later... Karl
> --
> http://www.mvps.org/vb
>
>
>

Paul Vick [MSFT]

09-05-2000, 02:50 PM

I'm not sure I understand the point. The runtime functions are just
functions contained within a namespace (Microsoft.VisualBasic) that happens
to be referenced by default in the templates. If you choose to remove your
import to the Microsoft.VisualBasic namespace(s) then poof! they all
disappear and you never have to think about them again.

Paul Vick [MSFT]

<Patrick Troughton Patrick> wrote in message
news:39afbe0f$1@news.devx.com...
>
> Backwards compatability was thrown out the window a long time ago. Why not
> go all the way and do it right?
>
> /Pat
>
> "Sam Spencer" <samsp@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >We are providing the string functions to offer backwards compatability
and
> >familiarity to Visual Basic users. Most of the Visual Basic Runtime
> >functions are implemented using the main runtime functions, some are
simple
> >wrappers, others are more complex. For example the Visual Basic versions
> of
> >the functions will use the current locale for the application when
> >performing locale sensitive operations. You are free to use the Visual
Basic
> >functions if you wish, or you can use the functions in the main runtime,
> or
> >both, the choice is yours.
> >
> >Sam
> >
> ><Patrick Troughton Patrick> wrote in message
> >news:39aeb0e9$1@news.devx.com...
> >>
> >> Based on what I've heard so far, VB7 still retains anachronisms like
Trim,
> >> Left, Mid, etc. Why? Shouldn't all these functions be replaced by the
> >String
> >> object's intrinsic properties and methods?
> >>
> >> /Pat
> >
> >
>

Karl E. Peterson

09-05-2000, 03:33 PM

Hi Paul --

> I'm not sure I understand the point.

It was <sarcasm>. Some feel that to even speak of backwards compatability at this
point is highly meaningless, if not downright insulting. The language has pretty
much been destroyed as we knew it. That some petty little string functions remain is
pointless. Does this help?

Thanks... Karl
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

"Paul Vick [MSFT]" <paulv@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:39b53e2e$1@news.devx.com...
> I'm not sure I understand the point. The runtime functions are just
> functions contained within a namespace (Microsoft.VisualBasic) that happens
> to be referenced by default in the templates. If you choose to remove your
> import to the Microsoft.VisualBasic namespace(s) then poof! they all
> disappear and you never have to think about them again.
>
> Paul Vick [MSFT]
>
> <Patrick Troughton Patrick> wrote in message
> news:39afbe0f$1@news.devx.com...
> >
> > Backwards compatability was thrown out the window a long time ago. Why not
> > go all the way and do it right?
> >
> > /Pat
> >
> > "Sam Spencer" <samsp@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > >We are providing the string functions to offer backwards compatability
> and
> > >familiarity to Visual Basic users. Most of the Visual Basic Runtime
> > >functions are implemented using the main runtime functions, some are
> simple
> > >wrappers, others are more complex. For example the Visual Basic versions
> > of
> > >the functions will use the current locale for the application when
> > >performing locale sensitive operations. You are free to use the Visual
> Basic
> > >functions if you wish, or you can use the functions in the main runtime,
> > or
> > >both, the choice is yours.
> > >
> > >Sam
> > >
> > ><Patrick Troughton Patrick> wrote in message
> > >news:39aeb0e9$1@news.devx.com...
> > >>
> > >> Based on what I've heard so far, VB7 still retains anachronisms like
> Trim,
> > >> Left, Mid, etc. Why? Shouldn't all these functions be replaced by the
> > >String
> > >> object's intrinsic properties and methods?
> > >>
> > >> /Pat
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

Karl E. Peterson

09-05-2000, 03:34 PM

Hi Michka --

> Well, since they were deadset against *any* non-MS speakers, the fact that
> they were not unwilling to consider it for topic coverage was signficant. Of
> course I am sure the fact that it would give me a chance to be really
> positive about VB.Net may have been a factor. <eg>

Heh, can't have that, can we? <g>

> Are you going to be there? We could talk about it over a drink or four,
> perhaps? :-)

Unfortunately, no. Maybe next spring, in SF?

Later... Karl
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

Phil Weber

09-05-2000, 04:02 PM

> Maybe next spring, in SF?

Karl: FYI, VSLive! (formerly VBITS) SF will be in January next year.
---
Phil Weber

Michael $michka$ Kaplan

09-05-2000, 04:23 PM

"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:39b548dc@news.devx.com...
> > Well, since they were deadset against *any* non-MS speakers, the fact
that
> > they were not unwilling to consider it for topic coverage was
signficant. Of
> > course I am sure the fact that it would give me a chance to be really
> > positive about VB.Net may have been a factor. <eg>
>
> Heh, can't have that, can we? <g>

Well, I am sure THEY would have liked it. There is more than one person at
MS who was happy that I was so i18n-focused, since it forced me to say good
things about Access 2000. :-)

> > Are you going to be there? We could talk about it over a drink or four,
> > perhaps? :-)
>
> Unfortunately, no. Maybe next spring, in SF?

You mean January? Sure!

--
MichKa

random junk of dubious value at the
multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
a new book on internationalization in VB at
http://www.i18nWithVB.com/

Karl E. Peterson

09-05-2000, 04:27 PM

Hi Phil --

> > Maybe next spring, in SF?
>
> Karl: FYI, VSLive! (formerly VBITS) SF will be in January next year.

Wow, January, huh? Is there a site about it, yet? Too bad they felt compelled to
follow MS' lead and change the focus away from VB. :-(

Thanks... Karl
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

Phil Weber

09-05-2000, 04:40 PM

> Wow, January, huh? Is there a site about it yet?

Karl: Just a list of upcoming conferences at http://www.vbits.net .

> Too bad they felt compelled to follow MS' lead and
> change the focus away from VB. :-(

Well, since Microsoft co-sponsors the conference, I don't think FTP has much
choice. VBITS is still there, by the way; it's just one component (along
with VCDC and SQL2TheMax) of VSLive!
---
Phil Weber

Karl E. Peterson

09-05-2000, 05:11 PM

Hi Phil --

> > Too bad they felt compelled to follow MS' lead and
> > change the focus away from VB. :-(
>
> Well, since Microsoft co-sponsors the conference, I don't think FTP has much
> choice. VBITS is still there, by the way; it's just one component (along
> with VCDC and SQL2TheMax) of VSLive!

Ah, that's right. Sorry for posting an incomplete impression. (Folks associated
should be careful how that's worded, though. Sure sounds like VB is being
downplayed.)

Thanks again... Karl
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

Alan Carter [MSFT]

09-05-2000, 06:43 PM

The string manipulation functions and other functions compatible with the
VB6 runtime are provided for users that want to use them. If you don't want
to use them then you don't need to reference the library that defines them.

Alan Carter
Microsoft

"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:39aee59c@news.devx.com...
> Hi Jay --
>
> > Gee Karl, do I sense a tad bit of sarcasm in your message???
> >
> > > Yep. As soon as they break native data types, they might as well just
chuck the
> > > entire language, and hose it completely. Absolutely agreed.
>
> Heheheh... Think so? <g>
>
> Naw! I really did mean it. It's so hosed as it is, they really ought to
just finish
> the job, instead of leaving little flecks of birdsh!t here and there, eh?
:-)
>
> Later... Karl
> --
> http://www.mvps.org/vb
>
>
>
>
>

Robert Scoble

09-05-2000, 08:28 PM

> Ah, that's right. Sorry for posting an incomplete impression. (Folks
associated
> should be careful how that's worded, though. Sure sounds like VB is being
> downplayed.)

Not true at all. In fact, VBITS is going to be about the same size next year
as it was this year. Of course, .NET will play a part in VBITS this year, so
if you think that VB.NET content means that VB is being downplayed, then you
are correct. By the way, you can see the schedule of all of our conferences
(including our 2001 ones) on our speaker FAQ at http://63.192.218.207/

Robert Scoble
http://conferences.devx.com

###

Karl E. Peterson

09-06-2000, 03:37 PM

Hi Robert --

> > Ah, that's right. Sorry for posting an incomplete impression. (Folks associated
> > should be careful how that's worded, though. Sure sounds like VB is being
> > downplayed.)
>
> Not true at all. In fact, VBITS is going to be about the same size next year
> as it was this year.

A fact not obvious from the promotional materials, thus far.

> Of course, .NET will play a part in VBITS this year, so
> if you think that VB.NET content means that VB is being downplayed, then you
> are correct.

No, I wouldn't think in those terms, regardless of what I post elsewhere here. <g>

What you've done is bring it under the VS umbrella, rather than allowing it to shine
on its own. It's a perception thing, nothing more.

Later... Karl
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

Karl E. Peterson

09-06-2000, 03:52 PM

Hi Alan --

> > > Gee Karl, do I sense a tad bit of sarcasm in your message???
> > >
> > > > Yep. As soon as they break native data types, they might as well just chuck
the
> > > > entire language, and hose it completely. Absolutely agreed.
> >
> > Heheheh... Think so? <g>
> >
> > Naw! I really did mean it. It's so hosed as it is, they really ought to just
finish
> > the job, instead of leaving little flecks of birdsh!t here and there, eh? :-)
>
> The string manipulation functions and other functions compatible with the
> VB6 runtime are provided for users that want to use them. If you don't want
> to use them then you don't need to reference the library that defines them.

Sorry, you and I haven't enough history perhaps to have a clear understanding of when
the other is feeling a bit facetious? See that little :-) up there?

The point is/was, you should've called it Visual.Fred, and left VB the **** alone.
(That was said nicely, btw. No disrespect intended.) That there are _some_
syntactic similarities doesn't make up for the abuse scheduled for the VB community.
This *could* have been a major revision, one folks other than script kiddies could've
been excited about. Instead, I fear, it's more likely to leave VB on the trashpile
alongside Visual Interdev. <sigh>

Okay, re-reading that, it does sound a bit harsh. Sorry 'bout that. It's really
_not_ as harsh as many of the offline discussions I've been involved in, with many of
this industry's leaders. (Yeah, yeah, "the lurkers support me!" <g>) Most of them
are afraid to voice a lot of their more serious concerns, as they're entirely
dependent on making nice with y'all. That's a shame. I'd like to see more of their
contributions to this discussion made public. You're scaring a lot of folks, as more
and more of this sinks in!

Restoring the memory access would be a *major* step in the right direction! I do
wish you well in that endeavor. (Writing VB.Net with VB.Net would seal the deal
forever! :-)

Thanks... Karl
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

Katy Mulvey

09-06-2000, 05:20 PM

> The point is/was, you should've called it Visual.Fred, and left VB the
> **** alone.

In other words, we have both C++ and CSharp; how come we don't
also have VB and VBSharp? (Not that "B Sharp" makes much sense
from a musical standpoint.... perhaps from a marketing standpoint,
however...)

-- Katy

Michael $michka$ Kaplan

09-06-2000, 05:39 PM

"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:39b69b10$1@news.devx.com...
> What you've done is bring it under the VS umbrella, rather than allowing
it to shine
> on its own. It's a perception thing, nothing more.

Its a LOT more than that.... it is the method that MS uses to obfuscate who
uses what product.

--
MichKa

random junk of dubious value at the
multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
a new book on internationalization in VB at
http://www.i18nWithVB.com/

Karl E. Peterson

09-06-2000, 06:03 PM

Hi Katy --

> > The point is/was, you should've called it Visual.Fred, and left VB the
> > **** alone.
>
> In other words, we have both C++ and CSharp; how come we don't
> also have VB and VBSharp?

Indeed!

> (Not that "B Sharp" makes much sense
> from a musical standpoint.... perhaps from a marketing standpoint,
> however...)

Sounds cooler than C#. <g>

Thanks... Karl
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

Karl E. Peterson

09-06-2000, 06:04 PM

Heh, interesting observation. No doubt a lot to that, as well...
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

"Michael (michka) Kaplan" <former_mvp@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com> wrote in
message news:39b6b788@news.devx.com...
> "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
> news:39b69b10$1@news.devx.com...
> > What you've done is bring it under the VS umbrella, rather than allowing
> it to shine
> > on its own. It's a perception thing, nothing more.
>
>
> Its a LOT more than that.... it is the method that MS uses to obfuscate who
> uses what product.
>
> --
> MichKa
>
> random junk of dubious value at the
> multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
> a new book on internationalization in VB at
> http://www.i18nWithVB.com/
>
>
>

Michael $michka$ Kaplan

09-07-2000, 11:12 AM

Its very true.... look at the fact that they can no longer reliably find out
who uses VFP or Access, because of their inclusion in suites, which outsell
any of the individual products in the suites! :-)

--
MichKa

random junk of dubious value at the
multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
a new book on internationalization in VB at
http://www.i18nWithVB.com/

"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:39b6bd6c$2@news.devx.com...
> Heh, interesting observation. No doubt a lot to that, as well...
> --
> http://www.mvps.org/vb
>
>
> "Michael (michka) Kaplan" <former_mvp@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com>
wrote in
> message news:39b6b788@news.devx.com...
> > "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
> > news:39b69b10$1@news.devx.com...
> > > What you've done is bring it under the VS umbrella, rather than
allowing
> > it to shine
> > > on its own. It's a perception thing, nothing more.
> >
> >
> > Its a LOT more than that.... it is the method that MS uses to obfuscate
who
> > uses what product.
> >
> > --
> > MichKa
> >
> > random junk of dubious value at the
> > multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
> > a new book on internationalization in VB at
> > http://www.i18nWithVB.com/
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Karl E. Peterson

09-07-2000, 02:25 PM

Yep, so what you're saying is they're leveraging their VB customer base to promote
things like SQLServer (over Oracle) in just the way they're trying to get us 4
million VB users to wage their little battle against Sun. Really pathetic, isn't it?
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

"Michael (michka) Kaplan" <former_mvp@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com> wrote in
message news:39b7ae6f@news.devx.com...
> Its very true.... look at the fact that they can no longer reliably find out
> who uses VFP or Access, because of their inclusion in suites, which outsell
> any of the individual products in the suites! :-)
>
> --
> MichKa
>
> random junk of dubious value at the
> multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
> a new book on internationalization in VB at
> http://www.i18nWithVB.com/
>
> "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
> news:39b6bd6c$2@news.devx.com...
> > Heh, interesting observation. No doubt a lot to that, as well...
> > --
> > http://www.mvps.org/vb
> >
> >
> > "Michael (michka) Kaplan" <former_mvp@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com>
> wrote in
> > message news:39b6b788@news.devx.com...
> > > "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
> > > news:39b69b10$1@news.devx.com...
> > > > What you've done is bring it under the VS umbrella, rather than
> allowing
> > > it to shine
> > > > on its own. It's a perception thing, nothing more.
> > >
> > >
> > > Its a LOT more than that.... it is the method that MS uses to obfuscate
> who
> > > uses what product.
> > >
> > > --
> > > MichKa
> > >
> > > random junk of dubious value at the
> > > multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
> > > a new book on internationalization in VB at
> > > http://www.i18nWithVB.com/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Michael $michka$ Kaplan

09-07-2000, 07:44 PM

That is what it looks like to me.

The only problem is that this crap does work, and a helluva a lot of people
fall for it.

You see, VS sales hide the fact that many people stay in VB5; only PSS has
good figures, based on people who call and need support. But over time, new
users become old users and do not need support.... and the new users after
them do not have VB5 to use. So the true usage of VB5 is hidden. Eventually,
PSS is justified in dropping support for VB5 because it does not get enough
calls... all legal, and true. And then the product team has already long
since focused only on VB6-->v.Next anyway, so the PSS news just proves the
point.

Much of the same will happen with VB6.... people will not be able to buy it
anymore (I wish I could make some software houses buy a LOT of copies of VB6
*now* so they are still around later, but they tend to be sheep, too. Many
of them turn in their existing stock using the promised "buyback" clauses in
their agreements!).

And Microsoft will be able to claim that VB.Net adoption is amazing.

This sort of obfuscation is how a president can have a very small percentage
of the popular vote, which in turn is a small percentage of the actual
voters who could have registered, yet the electoral college can have
"landslide" victories.... this sort of illusion improves confidence in the
election even as it insults our intelligence. And the same sorts of
justfications and games are used in products, as well.

--
MichKa

random junk of dubious value at the
multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
a new book on internationalization in VB at
http://www.i18nWithVB.com/

"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:39b7f61f@news.devx.com...
> Yep, so what you're saying is they're leveraging their VB customer base to
promote
> things like SQLServer (over Oracle) in just the way they're trying to get
us 4
> million VB users to wage their little battle against Sun. Really
pathetic, isn't it?
> --
> http://www.mvps.org/vb
>
>
> "Michael (michka) Kaplan" <former_mvp@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com>
wrote in
> message news:39b7ae6f@news.devx.com...
> > Its very true.... look at the fact that they can no longer reliably find
out
> > who uses VFP or Access, because of their inclusion in suites, which
outsell
> > any of the individual products in the suites! :-)
> >
> > --
> > MichKa
> >
> > random junk of dubious value at the
> > multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
> > a new book on internationalization in VB at
> > http://www.i18nWithVB.com/
> >
> > "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
> > news:39b6bd6c$2@news.devx.com...
> > > Heh, interesting observation. No doubt a lot to that, as well...
> > > --
> > > http://www.mvps.org/vb
> > >
> > >
> > > "Michael (michka) Kaplan" <former_mvp@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com>
> > wrote in
> > > message news:39b6b788@news.devx.com...
> > > > "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
> > > > news:39b69b10$1@news.devx.com...
> > > > > What you've done is bring it under the VS umbrella, rather than
> > allowing
> > > > it to shine
> > > > > on its own. It's a perception thing, nothing more.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Its a LOT more than that.... it is the method that MS uses to
obfuscate
> > who
> > > > uses what product.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > MichKa
> > > >
> > > > random junk of dubious value at the
> > > > multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
> > > > a new book on internationalization in VB at
> > > > http://www.i18nWithVB.com/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Michael $michka$ Kaplan

09-07-2000, 07:52 PM

It certainly is better than the VB-flat that is being proposed? :-(

--
MichKa

random junk of dubious value at the
multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
a new book on internationalization in VB at
http://www.i18nWithVB.com/

"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:39b6bd6c@news.devx.com...
> Hi Katy --
>
> > > The point is/was, you should've called it Visual.Fred, and left VB the
> > > **** alone.
> >
> > In other words, we have both C++ and CSharp; how come we don't
> > also have VB and VBSharp?
>
> Indeed!
>
> > (Not that "B Sharp" makes much sense
> > from a musical standpoint.... perhaps from a marketing standpoint,
> > however...)
>
> Sounds cooler than C#. <g>
>
> Thanks... Karl
> --
> http://www.mvps.org/vb
>
>
>
>
>

Karl E. Peterson

09-07-2000, 07:53 PM

Hi Michka --

> The only problem is that this crap does work, and a helluva a lot of people
> fall for it.

Yep.

> You see, VS sales hide the fact that many people stay in VB5; only PSS has
> good figures, based on people who call and need support. But over time, new
> users become old users and do not need support.... and the new users after
> them do not have VB5 to use. So the true usage of VB5 is hidden.

Good point. And VB5 is *still* far more widely used than VB6. My own personal
evidence? Downloads on my site. Consistently, week after week, the ccrpTimers
library has more downloads in the VB5 build than the VB6 build. Consistently!

> And Microsoft will be able to claim that VB.Net adoption is amazing.

That's what they'll do. And, never mind that no one actually *buys* it! But, jeez!
Jes lookee those numbers of MSDN subs!!! <bg>

Later... Karl
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

Michael $michka$ Kaplan

09-07-2000, 07:55 PM

"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:39b82887@news.devx.com...
> Good point. And VB5 is *still* far more widely used
> than VB6. My own personal evidence? Downloads on
> my site. Consistently, week after week, the ccrpTimers
> library has more downloads in the VB5 build than the
> VB6 build. Consistently!

Sorry, inadmissable [sic?]. Overuled.

--
MichKa

random junk of dubious value at the
multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
a new book on internationalization in VB at
http://www.i18nWithVB.com/

Karl E. Peterson

09-07-2000, 08:00 PM

Sick? My butt! Them's the fax, ma'am. <bg>

It's been nearly two years since either's been updated (11/98), so we're not talking
about folks re-downloading upgrade builds. I consistently, week in and week out,
have a 10:9 ratio, or so, of VB5:VB6 downloads on this most popular tool.
--
http://www.mvps.org/vb

"Michael (michka) Kaplan" <former_mvp@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com> wrote in
message news:39b82946$1@news.devx.com...
> "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
> news:39b82887@news.devx.com...
> > Good point. And VB5 is *still* far more widely used
> > than VB6. My own personal evidence? Downloads on
> > my site. Consistently, week after week, the ccrpTimers
> > library has more downloads in the VB5 build than the
> > VB6 build. Consistently!
>
> Sorry, inadmissable [sic?]. Overuled.
>
> --
> MichKa
>
> random junk of dubious value at the
> multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
> a new book on internationalization in VB at
> http://www.i18nWithVB.com/
>
>
>

Michael $michka$ Kaplan

09-07-2000, 11:34 PM

Actually the sic was due to my doubts of the spelling.

I was pretending to be Microsoft in my claim that it was not admissible. I
would have believed it to be true even without the explicit stats. :-)

--
MichKa

random junk of dubious value at the
multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
a new book on internationalization in VB at
http://www.i18nWithVB.com/

"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:39b82a55$1@news.devx.com...
> Sick? My butt! Them's the fax, ma'am. <bg>
>
> It's been nearly two years since either's been updated (11/98), so we're
not talking
> about folks re-downloading upgrade builds. I consistently, week in and
week out,
> have a 10:9 ratio, or so, of VB5:VB6 downloads on this most popular tool.
> --
> http://www.mvps.org/vb
>
>
>
> "Michael (michka) Kaplan" <former_mvp@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com>
wrote in
> message news:39b82946$1@news.devx.com...
> > "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
> > news:39b82887@news.devx.com...
> > > Good point. And VB5 is *still* far more widely used
> > > than VB6. My own personal evidence? Downloads on
> > > my site. Consistently, week after week, the ccrpTimers
> > > library has more downloads in the VB5 build than the
> > > VB6 build. Consistently!
> >
> > Sorry, inadmissable [sic?]. Overuled.
> >
> > --
> > MichKa
> >
> > random junk of dubious value at the
> > multilingual http://www.trigeminal.com/ and
> > a new book on internationalization in VB at
> > http://www.i18nWithVB.com/
> >
> >
> >
>
>