Newbie getting started in programming

Hello Everyone,
I'm a newbie and would appreciate any advice anyone can
give me on getting started with a career in programming. I
know VB and Visual Studio and would like to learn
VBScript. Is that the right direction to take? Should I focus
on the entire .net family? Or something else like java (or something else
entirely?) I am also interested in working as a contractor - are any of
you contractors? If so, how do you go about finding people
who want to hire you? A friend of mine is in IT and was
laid off and is having a hard time finding a new job. Is
this an industry wide slow-down that I should watch out
for? Like I said, I'm a newbie and just need some direction.

Thanks,
Benno

Well, first thing, the U.S. economy is definitely in a downturn and there
are many unemployed programmers at this time. We're hoping things will get
better later this year but there are no guarantees.

Next, working as a "contractor" usually requires that you already have solid
experience in the field - - you need to have already proven yourself capable
in the "real world". So typically entry-level people don't work as contractors
unless they are working for one of the very large contracting firms like
EDS which accepts and trains new people. These firms usually require at
least a bachelor's degree - - although not necessarily in computer science.
If you work for a consulting firm THEY find the clients, not you. Consultants
that work independently (that is, have their own businesses) have to handle
all the business aspects as well as the technical aspects. This includes
marketing (to find those clients) business administration (to ensure the
client actually pays you and your taxes are all in order) as well as keeping
up their technical skills. To learn a little more about independent contracting,
I suggest www.realrates.com - - both the website and the books sold by the
website's owner.

Finally, as for the eternal question "Which technology should I learn?" there
are really several different ways to go. Some people will advocate one language
or platform over the other, but a decent living can be made using many different
technologies.

So you've got a couple options:

1. Go to college (if you haven't already) and get an IT degree. Upon graduation,
you can work with the university's placement department or interview with
companies on your own.

2. Approach the smaller consulting firms in your area and ask them about
their requirements for hiring (degrees? certifications? experience?) I
can pretty much guarantee the large ones will insist on college degrees but
the smaller companies might consider someone if they can present themselves
REALLY well.

3. You can try the independent route although it's not something I recommend
for the inexperienced. There are just too many bases to cover and it's too
easy to end up not being paid because the customer is unhappy for one reason
or another.

IT is not like selling real estate on the weekends. It's a full-fledged
career and requires lengthy preparation and ongoing effort to remain current
with the technology. The simpler coding jobs are often being outsourced
overseas so going forward the jobs that remain in the US will require broad
background in both business and technical areas.

Best of Luck.
Elena

Benno,

It is wonderful that you like to pursue a career in programming (a
professional that I love dearly), but I just hope that your decision is
based on your affection on programming and not because of the money.

It is very important for you at this stage not to focus on the tools.
Instead, you should be "building" the knowledge on logic, algorithm, problem
solving, and object-oriented design concepts. Tools will change over time,
but logic and algorithm will not. You will be a good programmer if you have
good logic and good design. Without that, I don't care how well you know
Visual Studio, you will still be writing bad application.

By the way, VBScript is going away. So if you don't know it by now, don't
waste time on it. As of whether to learn .NET or Java, I am always a strong
advocate to learn as much as you can. So IMHO, I think you should learn
both if you can. If you cannot, for whatever reason, you just have to
decide which "camp" you want to join..... the Microsoft camp or the
"anything but Microsoft" camp, then pick the tools accordingly. Either camp
can provide you a long lasting career.

IMHO, I think every programmer should learn C++ first. If you are good in
C++, all these C#, Java, or whatever that comes along, will be "piece of
cake". =)

I don't do contract work. It is not my "cup of tea". So I cannot tell you
much about it. But I think it might be tough for you to get any contract
work if you don't have any "real life" working experience (it is my
assumption based on your post, so correct me if I am wrong). Not too many
places will hire "entry-level" contractors.

For the past 5 years or so, the IT industry was way over-supplied with
labors, thanks to the dotcom bubbles. Many people were attracted to the
profession primarily because of the money. And thanks to all the great RAD
tools that we have, there are many programmers out there that do not have
solid programming foundation and cannot write a program without an IDE.

The slow-down is pretty much a self-correction. It brings the IT profession
back down to earth. Programmers will still be able to find jobs, but not at
the previous outrageous rate. And if you are good, with solid experience,
there are still jobs out there. Having said that, it will be very tough for
"newbie" like you at this time. You just have to keep trying and have a lot
of patience.

Well, good luck and happy programming. =)

simon.


"Benno" <benno626@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c60025e$1@10.1.10.29...
>
> Hello Everyone,
> I'm a newbie and would appreciate any advice anyone can
> give me on getting started with a career in programming. I
> know VB and Visual Studio and would like to learn
> VBScript. Is that the right direction to take? Should I focus
> on the entire .net family? Or something else like java (or something else
> entirely?) I am also interested in working as a contractor - are any of
> you contractors? If so, how do you go about finding people
> who want to hire you? A friend of mine is in IT and was
> laid off and is having a hard time finding a new job. Is
> this an industry wide slow-down that I should watch out
> for? Like I said, I'm a newbie and just need some direction.
>
> Thanks,
> Benno
>

Simon,
Thank you for taking the time to respond. My interest in programming comes
from an enjoyment of programming, not the money. I love feeling like I'm
actually "creating" something.
Thanks for the heads-up about VBScript. I won't pursue it further. I'll
start checking out C++ now. Thanks also for the info on contracting. I had
thought that I'd stand a better chance as a beginner contracting because
they wouldn't have to spend money on benefits, etc. But I guess I'll rethink
that now.

Thanks again for your advice.

Benno

"simon" <substring0NOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Benno,
>
>It is wonderful that you like to pursue a career in programming (a
>professional that I love dearly), but I just hope that your decision is
>based on your affection on programming and not because of the money.
>
>It is very important for you at this stage not to focus on the tools.
>Instead, you should be "building" the knowledge on logic, algorithm, problem
>solving, and object-oriented design concepts. Tools will change over time,
>but logic and algorithm will not. You will be a good programmer if you
have
>good logic and good design. Without that, I don't care how well you know
>Visual Studio, you will still be writing bad application.
>
>By the way, VBScript is going away. So if you don't know it by now, don't
>waste time on it. As of whether to learn .NET or Java, I am always a strong
>advocate to learn as much as you can. So IMHO, I think you should learn
>both if you can. If you cannot, for whatever reason, you just have to
>decide which "camp" you want to join..... the Microsoft camp or the
>"anything but Microsoft" camp, then pick the tools accordingly. Either
camp
>can provide you a long lasting career.
>
>IMHO, I think every programmer should learn C++ first. If you are good
in
>C++, all these C#, Java, or whatever that comes along, will be "piece of
>cake". =)
>
>I don't do contract work. It is not my "cup of tea". So I cannot tell
you
>much about it. But I think it might be tough for you to get any contract
>work if you don't have any "real life" working experience (it is my
>assumption based on your post, so correct me if I am wrong). Not too many
>places will hire "entry-level" contractors.
>
>For the past 5 years or so, the IT industry was way over-supplied with
>labors, thanks to the dotcom bubbles. Many people were attracted to the
>profession primarily because of the money. And thanks to all the great
RAD
>tools that we have, there are many programmers out there that do not have
>solid programming foundation and cannot write a program without an IDE.
>
>The slow-down is pretty much a self-correction. It brings the IT profession
>back down to earth. Programmers will still be able to find jobs, but not
at
>the previous outrageous rate. And if you are good, with solid experience,
>there are still jobs out there. Having said that, it will be very tough
for
>"newbie" like you at this time. You just have to keep trying and have a
lot
>of patience.
>
>Well, good luck and happy programming. =)
>
>simon.

"Elena" <egermano@home.com> wrote:
>So typically entry-level people don't work as contractors
>unless they are working for one of the very large contracting firms like
>EDS which accepts and trains new people.

Where is this EDS located?

On 6 Feb 2002 20:30:45 -0800, "AlSison" <alsison2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>"Elena" <egermano@home.com> wrote:
>>So typically entry-level people don't work as contractors
>>unless they are working for one of the very large contracting firms like
>>EDS which accepts and trains new people.
>
>Where is this EDS located?

See http://eds.com/. There is a 'Careers' link in the upper right of
the home page.

"AlSison" <alsison2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"Elena" <egermano@home.com> wrote:
>>So typically entry-level people don't work as contractors
>>unless they are working for one of the very large contracting firms like
>>EDS which accepts and trains new people.
>
>Where is this EDS located?

Electronic Data Systems has a global practice. Go to www.eds.com to see the
list of countries, job openings, etc.

You see? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Benno, I suggest you study
somewhere in Asia, India would be an excellent choice. Change your citizenship
to Indian and then apply for an H-1B visa to come back to the US to work.
It might very well be the only way you will find a job.

Mark

PS - No offense to our current foreign workers is intended - they really
are wonderful people. This sarcasm is directed at US businesses asking for
more H-1B visas when we have talented American IT workers in the unemployment
lines and working at the local Ace Hardware store or delivering for Dominoes
Pizza.

"Benno" <benno626@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Everyone,
> I'm a newbie and would appreciate any advice anyone can
>give me on getting started with a career in programming. I
>know VB and Visual Studio and would like to learn
>VBScript. Is that the right direction to take? Should I focus
>on the entire .net family? Or something else like java (or something else
>entirely?) I am also interested in working as a contractor - are any of

>you contractors? If so, how do you go about finding people
>who want to hire you? A friend of mine is in IT and was
>laid off and is having a hard time finding a new job. Is
>this an industry wide slow-down that I should watch out
>for? Like I said, I'm a newbie and just need some direction.
>
>Thanks,
>Benno
>

This is just a rumor folks, but I hear that most of the goods India produces
are, not for the Indian people, but for export.

If this is true, then you can see why this is a perfect symbiotic relationship
between U.S. business need to derive more profit (forget about caring for
America, just get the money) and a country that would supply labor in a manner
that fulfills American human rights criteria, but at a low price.

Even though, the Indian people may come here for a few years and get
paid (compared to India), everyone longs for home. They will be back and
eventually, either India will have the economic power or share it more jointly
with America.




"mark" <therealdesertrat@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>You see? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Benno, I suggest you
study
>somewhere in Asia, India would be an excellent choice. Change your citizenship
>to Indian and then apply for an H-1B visa to come back to the US to work.
> It might very well be the only way you will find a job.
>
>Mark
>
>PS - No offense to our current foreign workers is intended - they really
>are wonderful people. This sarcasm is directed at US businesses asking
for
>more H-1B visas when we have talented American IT workers in the unemployment
>lines and working at the local Ace Hardware store or delivering for Dominoes
>Pizza.
>
>"Benno" <benno626@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Hello Everyone,
>> I'm a newbie and would appreciate any advice anyone can
>>give me on getting started with a career in programming. I
>>know VB and Visual Studio and would like to learn
>>VBScript. Is that the right direction to take? Should I focus
>>on the entire .net family? Or something else like java (or something else
>>entirely?) I am also interested in working as a contractor - are any of
>
>>you contractors? If so, how do you go about finding people
>>who want to hire you? A friend of mine is in IT and was
>>laid off and is having a hard time finding a new job. Is
>>this an industry wide slow-down that I should watch out
>>for? Like I said, I'm a newbie and just need some direction.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Benno
>>
>

Michael - I have no problem with offshore development, I have no problem with
the existing H-1B visas. I have a problem with politicians who talk about
stimulating the economy and then sign off to bring in even more cheap labor
when, by some estimates, one million IT workers lost their job in the United
States last year. I have a problem with a President who says he knows people
are hurting and he wants to get them back to work, yet part of his platform
was to increase H-1B visas dramatically (that's a fact). We have no union.
All one can do is write their congressional delegation and that's what I
was trying to encourage. I don't want anyone to go through what my colleagues
and I went through last January. Very, very painful.

Mark


"Michael Gautier" <gautier_michael@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is just a rumor folks, but I hear that most of the goods India
produces
>are, not for the Indian people, but for export.
>

> If this is true, then you can see why this is a perfect symbiotic relationship
>between U.S. business need to derive more profit (forget about caring for
>America, just get the money) and a country that would supply labor in a
manner
>that fulfills American human rights criteria, but at a low price.
>

> Even though, the Indian people may come here for a few years and get
>paid (compared to India), everyone longs for home. They will be back and
>eventually, either India will have the economic power or share it more jointly
>with America.
>

>

>

>
>"mark" <therealdesertrat@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>You see? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Benno, I suggest you
>study
>>somewhere in Asia, India would be an excellent choice. Change your citizenship
>>to Indian and then apply for an H-1B visa to come back to the US to work.
>> It might very well be the only way you will find a job.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>PS - No offense to our current foreign workers is intended - they really
>>are wonderful people. This sarcasm is directed at US businesses asking
>for
>>more H-1B visas when we have talented American IT workers in the unemployment
>>lines and working at the local Ace Hardware store or delivering for Dominoes
>>Pizza.
>>
>>"Benno" <benno626@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Hello Everyone,
>>> I'm a newbie and would appreciate any advice anyone can
>>>give me on getting started with a career in programming. I
>>>know VB and Visual Studio and would like to learn
>>>VBScript. Is that the right direction to take? Should I focus
>>>on the entire .net family? Or something else like java (or something else
>>>entirely?) I am also interested in working as a contractor - are any of
>>
>>>you contractors? If so, how do you go about finding people
>>>who want to hire you? A friend of mine is in IT and was
>>>laid off and is having a hard time finding a new job. Is
>>>this an industry wide slow-down that I should watch out
>>>for? Like I said, I'm a newbie and just need some direction.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Benno
>>>
>>
>

Hi,

having read your views and being a newbie programmar myself, i would like to
know how to improve logic, problem solving
regards
raj

"simon" <substring0NOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c60153f$1@10.1.10.29...
> Benno,
>
> It is wonderful that you like to pursue a career in programming (a
> professional that I love dearly), but I just hope that your decision is
> based on your affection on programming and not because of the money.
>
> It is very important for you at this stage not to focus on the tools.
> Instead, you should be "building" the knowledge on logic, algorithm,
problem
> solving, and object-oriented design concepts. Tools will change over
time,
> but logic and algorithm will not. You will be a good programmer if you
have
> good logic and good design. Without that, I don't care how well you know
> Visual Studio, you will still be writing bad application.
>
> By the way, VBScript is going away. So if you don't know it by now, don't
> waste time on it. As of whether to learn .NET or Java, I am always a
strong
> advocate to learn as much as you can. So IMHO, I think you should learn
> both if you can. If you cannot, for whatever reason, you just have to
> decide which "camp" you want to join..... the Microsoft camp or the
> "anything but Microsoft" camp, then pick the tools accordingly. Either
camp
> can provide you a long lasting career.
>
> IMHO, I think every programmer should learn C++ first. If you are good in
> C++, all these C#, Java, or whatever that comes along, will be "piece of
> cake". =)
>
> I don't do contract work. It is not my "cup of tea". So I cannot tell
you
> much about it. But I think it might be tough for you to get any contract
> work if you don't have any "real life" working experience (it is my
> assumption based on your post, so correct me if I am wrong). Not too many
> places will hire "entry-level" contractors.
>
> For the past 5 years or so, the IT industry was way over-supplied with
> labors, thanks to the dotcom bubbles. Many people were attracted to the
> profession primarily because of the money. And thanks to all the great
RAD
> tools that we have, there are many programmers out there that do not have
> solid programming foundation and cannot write a program without an IDE.
>
> The slow-down is pretty much a self-correction. It brings the IT
profession
> back down to earth. Programmers will still be able to find jobs, but not
at
> the previous outrageous rate. And if you are good, with solid experience,
> there are still jobs out there. Having said that, it will be very tough
for
> "newbie" like you at this time. You just have to keep trying and have a
lot
> of patience.
>
> Well, good luck and happy programming. =)
>
> simon.
>
>
> "Benno" <benno626@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3c60025e$1@10.1.10.29...
> >
> > Hello Everyone,
> > I'm a newbie and would appreciate any advice anyone can
> > give me on getting started with a career in programming. I
> > know VB and Visual Studio and would like to learn
> > VBScript. Is that the right direction to take? Should I focus
> > on the entire .net family? Or something else like java (or something
else
> > entirely?) I am also interested in working as a contractor - are any of
> > you contractors? If so, how do you go about finding people
> > who want to hire you? A friend of mine is in IT and was
> > laid off and is having a hard time finding a new job. Is
> > this an industry wide slow-down that I should watch out
> > for? Like I said, I'm a newbie and just need some direction.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Benno
> >
>
>