Recommending a technology

Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many years
of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.

There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline requirements,
I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements, the
following matrix was proposed:

WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
----------------------------------------------------------------
Cross Platform X X X X
----------------------------------------------------------------
Offline X X X
----------------------------------------------------------------
Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
----------------------------------------------------------------
Consistency N/A ? X X X
----------------------------------------------------------------
Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
----------------------------------------------------------------
Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
----------------------------------------------------------------
Learning Curve Moderate High High
----------------------------------------------------------------

Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The predetermined
delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have been
slated for development. This would compete against an existing product that
is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to beat
out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and was
to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.


My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are acceptable
tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that Java
or Flash would be the best tool for the job.

My questions:

1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the customer's
desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The
decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
3. Would anyone do anything differently?

I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
in advance.

>cross platform, offline capable, data entry application.

An applet is a cross between Java on the desktop and WebForms. Applets have
the advantage of providing an user interface with robust functionality and
are deployed from a central location. Java Applets can be granted system
priviliges on the client (to get out of the sandbox), so they can potentially
write files to hard drives, etc, etc. They could be made to work offline.
Applets have the catch that they will not run natively in the browser above
version 1.1.3 (?) of the JDK (possibly no native encryption for connection
(no https)). You will find their behaviour inconsistent between browsers,
in the form of "it works in this browser and crashes that one". While these
inconsistencies can be worked out, they are impossible to plan for and will
be time consuming to resolve. A Dr. Watson, doesn't give a lot of clues as
to what line of java code is crashing the browser. You can use a "plug-in"
provided by Sun to allow swing, etc to work in the browsers (i.e. Java 1.2
+ ). The plug-in has a host of problems, such as inconsistent chaching,
failing to update, etc. Check out the Sun site for a few thousand complaints.
Some are justified, some are not. There is also problems with browser versions
if you try to have the applets interact with javascript and html. The applets
will self update if a newer version is available and the browser has it's
update setting properly set. I am probably making them sound like a horror
story. For a simple application they may work fine. I found them troublesome,
although I don't think that has been everyones experience. Be prepared for
your mileage to very.

HTML has very limited user interface functionality and as your chart shows,
will not work offline. There are also round trip concerns if more than simple
data validation needs to be done.

I have no idea where flash fits in as I have never programmed with it. From
what I've seen on the internet I don't think it has the same functionality
as Java does.

Have not worked with .NET yet so I have no idea about Winforms.

Java has the advantage of building user interfaces with a lot of functionality,
being cross platform, etc. Being on the desktop it can work outside of the
java sandbox and you are free to use the latest version. On the desktop it
has all the disadvantages of any client application: it needs to be re-deployed
for patches and updates. One work around I would suggest is as follows:
Use a browser to distribute the application (i.e. download it off of www.mypage.com").
Build into the application an auto-updater. When the user launches the
application, the auto-updater is run first. It looks on the network for
updates and if found, downloads and installs the update files. Once finished,
it launches the actual, now updated, application. With such an approach
you'll have all the advantages of applets with none of the fuss. I think
Sun may make an auto-updater like product already.

If you are worried about learning Java, don't be. If you understand objects,
the learning curve is not bad. Java is a LOT like VB6, in that it is type
safe, has the typical suite of if/then while/do type constructs and is event
driven. The ADO model is conceptually similar to JDBC. You'll find a lot
of the concepts and programming models similar enough to get you started.
I'm sure someone will flame me for drawing the VB/Java comparison but I
learned Java in a just over a week, coming from a predominately VB6 background
(and some C++). Get a Teach Yourself in 21 Days book to get your feet wet
and from there you'll be able to understand more serious books. Could be
a good reason to have your company send you on a training course on a sunny
beach somewhere ;)! Java definitely meets your requirements.



>Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many
years
>of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
>
>There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
>application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline requirements,
>I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements, the
>following matrix was proposed:
>
> WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Cross Platform X X X X
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Offline X X X
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Consistency N/A ? X X X
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Learning Curve Moderate High High
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The predetermined
>delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have been
>slated for development. This would compete against an existing product that
>is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to
beat
>out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and was
>to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
>
>
>My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are acceptable
>tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that Java
>or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
>
>My questions:
>
>1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
>2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the customer's
>desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The
>decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
>3. Would anyone do anything differently?
>
>I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
>in advance.
>
>
>
>

Michael. If client cross platform is the requirement w/ offline then you
are limited to Java and maybe Flash (I don't know how well Flash works 'offline'
- depends on what you need to do). .Net on the client (other than serving
up HTML) is a long way off on any other 'mainstream' platform - and there
is no assurance to their compatibility level (past experience says it is
not good).

I would say is that if you really understand .Net technology then the Java
curve will not be that great. I would say less than Flash. As for Java
and Java applets - if you code properly the code can be 99% the same - we
are doing it. We switched from Applet housed to Application in about an
hour. As for offline capability - Hope that isn't included in 2-3 months.
I think you said not.

If you have any server side requirements, while Flash can create cool UIs,
Flash may not be the best choice if you want to do good OO coding. This
may not be an issue for you or is something you are willing to risk.

At one of my clients - our Java client just runs on XP while VB clients are
still being tested and bugs worked out.

You are at a difficult point. It is very difficult to pick technologies
without a good deal of experience with them. Seems most of your [current]
technology knowledge is mostly WebForms. And since that is your knowledge
area, you are leaning towards that and that is not good.

Mark

"Michael Gautier" <vb@vb.com> wrote:
>
>Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many
years
>of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
>
>There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
>application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline requirements,
>I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements, the
>following matrix was proposed:
>
> WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Cross Platform X X X X
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Offline X X X
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Consistency N/A ? X X X
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Learning Curve Moderate High High
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The predetermined
>delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have been
>slated for development. This would compete against an existing product that
>is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to
beat
>out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and was
>to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
>
>
>My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are acceptable
>tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that Java
>or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
>
>My questions:
>
>1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
>2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the customer's
>desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The
>decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
>3. Would anyone do anything differently?
>
>I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
>in advance.
>
>
>
>

Michael,
I have no idea of your application design but have you looked at Lotus
Notes, for straight data entry it is really easy to deploy. It will
statisfy your Offline needs natively and is cross platform. Deployment
will require a lotus notes client, but client applications are
automatically updated when changes are made to the server application.

Dan


Michael Gautier wrote:
> Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many years
> of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
>
> There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
> application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline requirements,
> I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements, the
> following matrix was proposed:
>
> WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Cross Platform X X X X
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Offline X X X
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Consistency N/A ? X X X
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Learning Curve Moderate High High
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The predetermined
> delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have been
> slated for development. This would compete against an existing product that
> is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to beat
> out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and was
> to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
>
>
> My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are acceptable
> tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that Java
> or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
>
> My questions:
>
> 1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
> 2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the customer's
> desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The
> decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
> 3. Would anyone do anything differently?
>
> I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
> in advance.
>
>
>
>

With the cross platform concerns and your feedback I am recommending Java.
The question I have is what would be my fallback position if the offline
requirement is taken off the table?



"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d75e193$1@10.1.10.29...
>
> Michael. If client cross platform is the requirement w/ offline then you
> are limited to Java and maybe Flash (I don't know how well Flash works
'offline'
> - depends on what you need to do). .Net on the client (other than serving
> up HTML) is a long way off on any other 'mainstream' platform - and there
> is no assurance to their compatibility level (past experience says it is
> not good).
>
> I would say is that if you really understand .Net technology then the Java
> curve will not be that great. I would say less than Flash. As for Java
> and Java applets - if you code properly the code can be 99% the same - we
> are doing it. We switched from Applet housed to Application in about an
> hour. As for offline capability - Hope that isn't included in 2-3 months.
> I think you said not.
>
> If you have any server side requirements, while Flash can create cool UIs,
> Flash may not be the best choice if you want to do good OO coding. This
> may not be an issue for you or is something you are willing to risk.
>
> At one of my clients - our Java client just runs on XP while VB clients
are
> still being tested and bugs worked out.
>
> You are at a difficult point. It is very difficult to pick technologies
> without a good deal of experience with them. Seems most of your [current]
> technology knowledge is mostly WebForms. And since that is your knowledge
> area, you are leaning towards that and that is not good.
>
> Mark
>
> "Michael Gautier" <vb@vb.com> wrote:
> >
> >Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many
> years
> >of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
> >
> >There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
> >application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline
requirements,
> >I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,
the
> >following matrix was proposed:
> >
> > WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Cross Platform X X X X
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Offline X X X
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Consistency N/A ? X X X
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Learning Curve Moderate High High
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The
predetermined
> >delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have been
> >slated for development. This would compete against an existing product
that
> >is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to
> beat
> >out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and
was
> >to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
> >
> >
> >My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are
acceptable
> >tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that
Java
> >or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
> >
> >My questions:
> >
> >1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
> >2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the
customer's
> >desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The
> >decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
> >3. Would anyone do anything differently?
> >
> >I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
> >in advance.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

At my shop there are three contingents, Microsoft, Java and Mainframe. The
Mainframe has upgraded their systems and is capable of running Java so there
is an interest in bringing the technology expertise in (as cheaply as
possible). Additionally, you have infrastructure folks that want to move
everything to Linux, but the Microsoft Application Developers are holding
them back. So there are political as well as technical aspects that might
rule out Lotus in the short term. Although, getting rid of Exchange might be
tempting, but then you have Oracle versus Lotus, versus Novell. However, I
am intrigued by the native offline capabilities. I guess it may depend on
how long it would take to develop it in Java versus learning how to take
advantage of it in Lotus. At present offline considerations are pushing
things in the direction of a desktop client, but I would have to figure out
how important offline capabilities are (basic versus advanced
functionality). Thanks for the head up though. If you are aware of any other
packages that offer offline capabilities, I would appreciate it.


"solex" <solex@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:3d761e02$1@10.1.10.29...
> Michael,
> I have no idea of your application design but have you looked at Lotus
> Notes, for straight data entry it is really easy to deploy. It will
> statisfy your Offline needs natively and is cross platform. Deployment
> will require a lotus notes client, but client applications are
> automatically updated when changes are made to the server application.
>
> Dan
>
>
> Michael Gautier wrote:
> > Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many
years
> > of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
> >
> > There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
> > application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline
requirements,
> > I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,
the
> > following matrix was proposed:
> >
> > WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Cross Platform X X X X
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Offline X X X
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Consistency N/A ? X X X
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > Learning Curve Moderate High High
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The
predetermined
> > delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have
been
> > slated for development. This would compete against an existing product
that
> > is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to
beat
> > out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and
was
> > to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
> >
> >
> > My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are
acceptable
> > tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that
Java
> > or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
> >
> > My questions:
> >
> > 1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
> > 2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the
customer's
> > desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The

> > decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
> > 3. Would anyone do anything differently?
> >
> > I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
> > in advance.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

If the applet can be configured to work offline, how would your delivery
mechanism work?

I suspect that offlining an application delivered via a browser (Flash or
Applet) would mean using a static html page and having the user enable the
page to be viewed offline via browser options. Does anyone know if this is
the correct assumption (trying to get a heads up before full research
begins).


"Guy Smith" <no@email.com> wrote in message news:3d75afcb$1@10.1.10.29...
>
>
> >cross platform, offline capable, data entry application.
>
> An applet is a cross between Java on the desktop and WebForms. Applets
have
> the advantage of providing an user interface with robust functionality and
> are deployed from a central location. Java Applets can be granted system
> priviliges on the client (to get out of the sandbox), so they can
potentially
> write files to hard drives, etc, etc. They could be made to work offline.
> Applets have the catch that they will not run natively in the browser
above
> version 1.1.3 (?) of the JDK (possibly no native encryption for connection
> (no https)). You will find their behaviour inconsistent between browsers,
> in the form of "it works in this browser and crashes that one". While
these
> inconsistencies can be worked out, they are impossible to plan for and
will
> be time consuming to resolve. A Dr. Watson, doesn't give a lot of clues as
> to what line of java code is crashing the browser. You can use a
"plug-in"
> provided by Sun to allow swing, etc to work in the browsers (i.e. Java 1.2
> + ). The plug-in has a host of problems, such as inconsistent chaching,
> failing to update, etc. Check out the Sun site for a few thousand
complaints.
> Some are justified, some are not. There is also problems with browser
versions
> if you try to have the applets interact with javascript and html. The
applets
> will self update if a newer version is available and the browser has it's
> update setting properly set. I am probably making them sound like a
horror
> story. For a simple application they may work fine. I found them
troublesome,
> although I don't think that has been everyones experience. Be prepared
for
> your mileage to very.
>
> HTML has very limited user interface functionality and as your chart
shows,
> will not work offline. There are also round trip concerns if more than
simple
> data validation needs to be done.
>
> I have no idea where flash fits in as I have never programmed with it.
From
> what I've seen on the internet I don't think it has the same functionality
> as Java does.
>
> Have not worked with .NET yet so I have no idea about Winforms.
>
> Java has the advantage of building user interfaces with a lot of
functionality,
> being cross platform, etc. Being on the desktop it can work outside of the
> java sandbox and you are free to use the latest version. On the desktop it
> has all the disadvantages of any client application: it needs to be
re-deployed
> for patches and updates. One work around I would suggest is as follows:
> Use a browser to distribute the application (i.e. download it off of
www.mypage.com").
> Build into the application an auto-updater. When the user launches the
> application, the auto-updater is run first. It looks on the network for
> updates and if found, downloads and installs the update files. Once
finished,
> it launches the actual, now updated, application. With such an approach
> you'll have all the advantages of applets with none of the fuss. I think
> Sun may make an auto-updater like product already.
>
> If you are worried about learning Java, don't be. If you understand
objects,
> the learning curve is not bad. Java is a LOT like VB6, in that it is type
> safe, has the typical suite of if/then while/do type constructs and is
event
> driven. The ADO model is conceptually similar to JDBC. You'll find a lot
> of the concepts and programming models similar enough to get you started.
> I'm sure someone will flame me for drawing the VB/Java comparison but I
> learned Java in a just over a week, coming from a predominately VB6
background
> (and some C++). Get a Teach Yourself in 21 Days book to get your feet wet
> and from there you'll be able to understand more serious books. Could be
> a good reason to have your company send you on a training course on a
sunny
> beach somewhere ;)! Java definitely meets your requirements.
>
>
>
> >Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many
> years
> >of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
> >
> >There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
> >application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline
requirements,
> >I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,
the
> >following matrix was proposed:
> >
> > WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Cross Platform X X X X
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Offline X X X
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Consistency N/A ? X X X
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >Learning Curve Moderate High High
> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The
predetermined
> >delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have been
> >slated for development. This would compete against an existing product
that
> >is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to
> beat
> >out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and
was
> >to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
> >
> >
> >My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are
acceptable
> >tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that
Java
> >or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
> >
> >My questions:
> >
> >1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
> >2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the
customer's
> >desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The
> >decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
> >3. Would anyone do anything differently?
> >
> >I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
> >in advance.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Michael,

I don't mean to push Lotus Notes but it is on just about all the major
platforms including but not limited to: Windows, Linux, AS400, Solaris.

In terms of offline capabilities Lotus Notes is the only software that I
know of that supports replication effectively. Although Oracle has/had
Mobile Objects with Oracle Lite as does Microsoft Access, they have not
been doing replication nearly as long a Lotus, although they might be
something to look into. A downside to Lotus is that it is next to
impossible to do complex relational type operations, for instance
complex reports.

Lotus Notes supports JAVA as a development language and is J2EE so if
JAVA is a consideration you might want to consider Lotus Notes as an
application server, I cannot comment on the scaleability.

Also you probably should not compare Lotus to Oracle or Novell as they
are completely different animials in this sense.

It has been my experience that no matter what your requirements are for
a development environment, choosing just one tool is next to impossible.
You will need to choose the tools that are appropriate to do the job
and integrate.

Also keep in mind that JAVA on the desktop has virtually failed (in my
opinion only!) with the exception of some tools and IDE's. It appears
that the server is where JAVA shines.

Good Luck!
Dan

Michael Gautier wrote:
> At my shop there are three contingents, Microsoft, Java and Mainframe. The
> Mainframe has upgraded their systems and is capable of running Java so there
> is an interest in bringing the technology expertise in (as cheaply as
> possible). Additionally, you have infrastructure folks that want to move
> everything to Linux, but the Microsoft Application Developers are holding
> them back. So there are political as well as technical aspects that might
> rule out Lotus in the short term. Although, getting rid of Exchange might be
> tempting, but then you have Oracle versus Lotus, versus Novell. However, I
> am intrigued by the native offline capabilities. I guess it may depend on
> how long it would take to develop it in Java versus learning how to take
> advantage of it in Lotus. At present offline considerations are pushing
> things in the direction of a desktop client, but I would have to figure out
> how important offline capabilities are (basic versus advanced
> functionality). Thanks for the head up though. If you are aware of any other
> packages that offer offline capabilities, I would appreciate it.
>
>
> "solex" <solex@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:3d761e02$1@10.1.10.29...
>
>>Michael,
>>I have no idea of your application design but have you looked at Lotus
>>Notes, for straight data entry it is really easy to deploy. It will
>>statisfy your Offline needs natively and is cross platform. Deployment
>>will require a lotus notes client, but client applications are
>>automatically updated when changes are made to the server application.
>>
>>Dan
>>
>>
>>Michael Gautier wrote:
>>
>>>Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many
>>
> years
>
>>>of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
>>>
>>>There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
>>>application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline
>>
> requirements,
>
>>>I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,
>>
> the
>
>>>following matrix was proposed:
>>>
>>> WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Cross Platform X X X X
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Offline X X X
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Consistency N/A ? X X X
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Learning Curve Moderate High High
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The
>>
> predetermined
>
>>>delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have
>>
> been
>
>>>slated for development. This would compete against an existing product
>>
> that
>
>>>is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to
>>
> beat
>
>>>out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and
>>
> was
>
>>>to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
>>>
>>>
>>>My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are
>>
> acceptable
>
>>>tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that
>>
> Java
>
>>>or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
>>>
>>>My questions:
>>>
>>>1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
>>>2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the
>>
> customer's
>
>>>desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The
>>
>
>>>decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
>>>3. Would anyone do anything differently?
>>>
>>>I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
>>>in advance.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

You could fall back to your current knowledge area. That still limits the
serverside to one platform. But if this is not a concern for you or the
client (read: they've got lots of $) then go ahead. I wouldn't but that
is the way I feel.

The thing is even if they take it off the table and you go back to a browser
only implementation then you are stuck or will end up with 2 interfaces if
they change their minds. But clients never change their minds. With the
current technology available there is little reason to implement a GUI interface
(of any complexity) in HMTL/Browser. It can still be used what it was originally
intended and it does that well.

"Michael Gautier" <gautier_michael@hotmail.com> wrote:
>With the cross platform concerns and your feedback I am recommending Java.
>The question I have is what would be my fallback position if the offline
>requirement is taken off the table?
>
>
>
>"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d75e193$1@10.1.10.29...
>>
>> Michael. If client cross platform is the requirement w/ offline then
you
>> are limited to Java and maybe Flash (I don't know how well Flash works
>'offline'
>> - depends on what you need to do). .Net on the client (other than serving
>> up HTML) is a long way off on any other 'mainstream' platform - and there
>> is no assurance to their compatibility level (past experience says it
is
>> not good).
>>
>> I would say is that if you really understand .Net technology then the
Java
>> curve will not be that great. I would say less than Flash. As for Java
>> and Java applets - if you code properly the code can be 99% the same -
we
>> are doing it. We switched from Applet housed to Application in about
an
>> hour. As for offline capability - Hope that isn't included in 2-3 months.
>> I think you said not.
>>
>> If you have any server side requirements, while Flash can create cool
UIs,
>> Flash may not be the best choice if you want to do good OO coding. This
>> may not be an issue for you or is something you are willing to risk.
>>
>> At one of my clients - our Java client just runs on XP while VB clients
>are
>> still being tested and bugs worked out.
>>
>> You are at a difficult point. It is very difficult to pick technologies
>> without a good deal of experience with them. Seems most of your [current]
>> technology knowledge is mostly WebForms. And since that is your knowledge
>> area, you are leaning towards that and that is not good.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> "Michael Gautier" <vb@vb.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many
>> years
>> >of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
>> >
>> >There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
>> >application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline
>requirements,
>> >I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,
>the
>> >following matrix was proposed:
>> >
>> > WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
>> >----------------------------------------------------------------
>> >Cross Platform X X X X
>> >----------------------------------------------------------------
>> >Offline X X X
>> >----------------------------------------------------------------
>> >Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
>> >----------------------------------------------------------------
>> >Consistency N/A ? X X X
>> >----------------------------------------------------------------
>> >Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
>> >----------------------------------------------------------------
>> >Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
>> >----------------------------------------------------------------
>> >Learning Curve Moderate High High
>> >----------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The
>predetermined
>> >delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have
been
>> >slated for development. This would compete against an existing product
>that
>> >is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want
to
>> beat
>> >out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and
>was
>> >to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
>> >
>> >
>> >My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are
>acceptable
>> >tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that
>Java
>> >or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
>> >
>> >My questions:
>> >
>> >1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
>> >2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the
>customer's
>> >desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case.
The
>> >decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
>> >3. Would anyone do anything differently?
>> >
>> >I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank
you
>> >in advance.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>

Java on the client has 'failed' only due to FUD, misuse and misunderstanding.
Many places are using Java successfully on the client. We are. And in
doing so we have not limited ourselves or our clients to Windows on the desktop
or the server. I don't think it has failed on the client. I think it is
underused. I see this as an opportunity. Especially since the Linux use
is on the rise. As the IT departments begin to use it more and more on the
server then they will see how easy it is and be able to implement it on the
desktop. Lastly, I see no reason to learn 2 major development platforms
(ie Java and .Net) when one will do very well for both and is not limited
by hardware. Java has only 'shined' on the server because it will run on
any platform, isn't as difficult as C/C++ and the servers-side is still very
diverse.

Lotus Notes is a very good tool. But typically it is misused (In the same
way VB has been). I am glad to see IBM finally intergrate it with its other
products (DB2/Websphere). Replication is a major plus for LN. But then,
as Dan said, you will have to deal with other major issues.

What really do you need to do 'offline'?



solex <solex@nowhere.com> wrote:
>Michael,
>
>I don't mean to push Lotus Notes but it is on just about all the major
>platforms including but not limited to: Windows, Linux, AS400, Solaris.
>
>In terms of offline capabilities Lotus Notes is the only software that I

>know of that supports replication effectively. Although Oracle has/had

>Mobile Objects with Oracle Lite as does Microsoft Access, they have not

>been doing replication nearly as long a Lotus, although they might be
>something to look into. A downside to Lotus is that it is next to
>impossible to do complex relational type operations, for instance
>complex reports.
>
>Lotus Notes supports JAVA as a development language and is J2EE so if
>JAVA is a consideration you might want to consider Lotus Notes as an
>application server, I cannot comment on the scaleability.
>
>Also you probably should not compare Lotus to Oracle or Novell as they
>are completely different animials in this sense.
>
>It has been my experience that no matter what your requirements are for

>a development environment, choosing just one tool is next to impossible.

> You will need to choose the tools that are appropriate to do the job

>and integrate.
>
>Also keep in mind that JAVA on the desktop has virtually failed (in my
>opinion only!) with the exception of some tools and IDE's. It appears
>that the server is where JAVA shines.
>
>Good Luck!
>Dan
>
>Michael Gautier wrote:
>> At my shop there are three contingents, Microsoft, Java and Mainframe.
The
>> Mainframe has upgraded their systems and is capable of running Java so
there
>> is an interest in bringing the technology expertise in (as cheaply as
>> possible). Additionally, you have infrastructure folks that want to move
>> everything to Linux, but the Microsoft Application Developers are holding
>> them back. So there are political as well as technical aspects that might
>> rule out Lotus in the short term. Although, getting rid of Exchange might
be
>> tempting, but then you have Oracle versus Lotus, versus Novell. However,
I
>> am intrigued by the native offline capabilities. I guess it may depend
on
>> how long it would take to develop it in Java versus learning how to take
>> advantage of it in Lotus. At present offline considerations are pushing
>> things in the direction of a desktop client, but I would have to figure
out
>> how important offline capabilities are (basic versus advanced
>> functionality). Thanks for the head up though. If you are aware of any
other
>> packages that offer offline capabilities, I would appreciate it.
>>
>>
>> "solex" <solex@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:3d761e02$1@10.1.10.29...
>>
>>>Michael,
>>>I have no idea of your application design but have you looked at Lotus
>>>Notes, for straight data entry it is really easy to deploy. It will
>>>statisfy your Offline needs natively and is cross platform. Deployment
>>>will require a lotus notes client, but client applications are
>>>automatically updated when changes are made to the server application.
>>>
>>>Dan
>>>
>>>
>>>Michael Gautier wrote:
>>>
>>>>Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many
>>>
>> years
>>
>>>>of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
>>>>
>>>>There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
>>>>application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline
>>>
>> requirements,
>>
>>>>I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,
>>>
>> the
>>
>>>>following matrix was proposed:
>>>>
>>>> WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Cross Platform X X X X
>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Offline X X X
>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Consistency N/A ? X X X
>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Learning Curve Moderate High High
>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The
>>>
>> predetermined
>>
>>>>delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have
>>>
>> been
>>
>>>>slated for development. This would compete against an existing product
>>>
>> that
>>
>>>>is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want
to
>>>
>> beat
>>
>>>>out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and
>>>
>> was
>>
>>>>to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are
>>>
>> acceptable
>>
>>>>tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that
>>>
>> Java
>>
>>>>or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
>>>>
>>>>My questions:
>>>>
>>>>1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
>>>>2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the
>>>
>> customer's
>>
>>>>desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case.
The
>>>
>>
>>>>decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
>>>>3. Would anyone do anything differently?
>>>>
>>>>I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank
you
>>>>in advance.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

We must clarify to Michael that everything we say here is our opinion.
While I do not necessarily agree with your opinion re: Java on the
client, (based on some personal experience and alot of reading others
opinions) it is great the you are able to implement it successfully.

Here is an article I found on the comp.lang.java.advocacy news group
that might be of interest:

http://linux.sarang.net/ftp/mirror/d...whitepaper.pdf

Regards,
Dan

MarkN wrote:
> Java on the client has 'failed' only due to FUD, misuse and misunderstanding.
> Many places are using Java successfully on the client. We are. And in
> doing so we have not limited ourselves or our clients to Windows on the desktop
> or the server. I don't think it has failed on the client. I think it is
> underused. I see this as an opportunity. Especially since the Linux use
> is on the rise. As the IT departments begin to use it more and more on the
> server then they will see how easy it is and be able to implement it on the
> desktop. Lastly, I see no reason to learn 2 major development platforms
> (ie Java and .Net) when one will do very well for both and is not limited
> by hardware. Java has only 'shined' on the server because it will run on
> any platform, isn't as difficult as C/C++ and the servers-side is still very
> diverse.
>
> Lotus Notes is a very good tool. But typically it is misused (In the same
> way VB has been). I am glad to see IBM finally intergrate it with its other
> products (DB2/Websphere). Replication is a major plus for LN. But then,
> as Dan said, you will have to deal with other major issues.
>
> What really do you need to do 'offline'?
>
>
>
> solex <solex@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>>Michael,
>>
>>I don't mean to push Lotus Notes but it is on just about all the major
>>platforms including but not limited to: Windows, Linux, AS400, Solaris.
>>
>>In terms of offline capabilities Lotus Notes is the only software that I
>
>
>>know of that supports replication effectively. Although Oracle has/had
>
>
>>Mobile Objects with Oracle Lite as does Microsoft Access, they have not
>
>
>>been doing replication nearly as long a Lotus, although they might be
>>something to look into. A downside to Lotus is that it is next to
>>impossible to do complex relational type operations, for instance
>>complex reports.
>>
>>Lotus Notes supports JAVA as a development language and is J2EE so if
>>JAVA is a consideration you might want to consider Lotus Notes as an
>>application server, I cannot comment on the scaleability.
>>
>>Also you probably should not compare Lotus to Oracle or Novell as they
>>are completely different animials in this sense.
>>
>>It has been my experience that no matter what your requirements are for
>
>
>>a development environment, choosing just one tool is next to impossible.
>
>
>> You will need to choose the tools that are appropriate to do the job
>
>
>>and integrate.
>>
>>Also keep in mind that JAVA on the desktop has virtually failed (in my
>>opinion only!) with the exception of some tools and IDE's. It appears
>>that the server is where JAVA shines.
>>
>>Good Luck!
>>Dan
>>
>>Michael Gautier wrote:
>>
>>>At my shop there are three contingents, Microsoft, Java and Mainframe.
>>
> The
>
>>>Mainframe has upgraded their systems and is capable of running Java so
>>
> there
>
>>>is an interest in bringing the technology expertise in (as cheaply as
>>>possible). Additionally, you have infrastructure folks that want to move
>>>everything to Linux, but the Microsoft Application Developers are holding
>>>them back. So there are political as well as technical aspects that might
>>>rule out Lotus in the short term. Although, getting rid of Exchange might
>>
> be
>
>>>tempting, but then you have Oracle versus Lotus, versus Novell. However,
>>
> I
>
>>>am intrigued by the native offline capabilities. I guess it may depend
>>
> on
>
>>>how long it would take to develop it in Java versus learning how to take
>>>advantage of it in Lotus. At present offline considerations are pushing
>>>things in the direction of a desktop client, but I would have to figure
>>
> out
>
>>>how important offline capabilities are (basic versus advanced
>>>functionality). Thanks for the head up though. If you are aware of any
>>
> other
>
>>>packages that offer offline capabilities, I would appreciate it.
>>>
>>>
>>>"solex" <solex@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:3d761e02$1@10.1.10.29...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Michael,
>>>>I have no idea of your application design but have you looked at Lotus
>>>>Notes, for straight data entry it is really easy to deploy. It will
>>>>statisfy your Offline needs natively and is cross platform. Deployment
>>>>will require a lotus notes client, but client applications are
>>>>automatically updated when changes are made to the server application.
>>>>
>>>>Dan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Michael Gautier wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many
>>>>
>>>years
>>>
>>>
>>>>>of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
>>>>>
>>>>>There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
>>>>>application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline
>>>>
>>>requirements,
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,
>>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>
>>>>>following matrix was proposed:
>>>>>
>>>>> WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>Cross Platform X X X X
>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>Offline X X X
>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>Consistency N/A ? X X X
>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>Learning Curve Moderate High High
>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The
>>>>
>>>predetermined
>>>
>>>
>>>>>delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have
>>>>
>>>been
>>>
>>>
>>>>>slated for development. This would compete against an existing product
>>>>
>>>that
>>>
>>>
>>>>>is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want
>>>>
> to
>
>>>beat
>>>
>>>
>>>>>out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and
>>>>
>>>was
>>>
>>>
>>>>>to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are
>>>>
>>>acceptable
>>>
>>>
>>>>>tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that
>>>>
>>>Java
>>>
>>>
>>>>>or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
>>>>>
>>>>>My questions:
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
>>>>>2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the
>>>>
>>>customer's
>>>
>>>
>>>>>desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case.
>>>>
> The
>
>>>>>decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
>>>>>3. Would anyone do anything differently?
>>>>>
>>>>>I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank
>>>>
> you
>
>>>>>in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>

Swing is not perfect. But most people have problems because they don't know
what they are doing or try to code the same old way.

There is an additional Java GUI API called SWT which is used in the Eclipse
IDE. It is as quick as native and is cross platform.

My point is that no matter what you use, do your best to use it on the client
and server. Otherwise duplicate coding will occur or work arounds to deal
with development platform differences. Sometimes this is necessary but why
if it isn't necessary.


solex <solex@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>We must clarify to Michael that everything we say here is our opinion.
>While I do not necessarily agree with your opinion re: Java on the
>client, (based on some personal experience and alot of reading others
>opinions) it is great the you are able to implement it successfully.
>
>Here is an article I found on the comp.lang.java.advocacy news group
>that might be of interest:
>
>http://linux.sarang.net/ftp/mirror/d...whitepaper.pdf
>
>Regards,
>Dan
>
>MarkN wrote:
>> Java on the client has 'failed' only due to FUD, misuse and misunderstanding.
>> Many places are using Java successfully on the client. We are. And
in
>> doing so we have not limited ourselves or our clients to Windows on the
desktop
>> or the server. I don't think it has failed on the client. I think it
is
>> underused. I see this as an opportunity. Especially since the Linux
use
>> is on the rise. As the IT departments begin to use it more and more on
the
>> server then they will see how easy it is and be able to implement it on
the
>> desktop. Lastly, I see no reason to learn 2 major development platforms
>> (ie Java and .Net) when one will do very well for both and is not limited
>> by hardware. Java has only 'shined' on the server because it will run
on
>> any platform, isn't as difficult as C/C++ and the servers-side is still
very
>> diverse.
>>
>> Lotus Notes is a very good tool. But typically it is misused (In the
same
>> way VB has been). I am glad to see IBM finally intergrate it with its
other
>> products (DB2/Websphere). Replication is a major plus for LN. But then,
>> as Dan said, you will have to deal with other major issues.
>>
>> What really do you need to do 'offline'?
>>
>>
>>
>> solex <solex@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Michael,
>>>
>>>I don't mean to push Lotus Notes but it is on just about all the major

>>>platforms including but not limited to: Windows, Linux, AS400, Solaris.
>>>
>>>In terms of offline capabilities Lotus Notes is the only software that
I
>>
>>
>>>know of that supports replication effectively. Although Oracle has/had
>>
>>
>>>Mobile Objects with Oracle Lite as does Microsoft Access, they have not
>>
>>
>>>been doing replication nearly as long a Lotus, although they might be

>>>something to look into. A downside to Lotus is that it is next to
>>>impossible to do complex relational type operations, for instance
>>>complex reports.
>>>
>>>Lotus Notes supports JAVA as a development language and is J2EE so if

>>>JAVA is a consideration you might want to consider Lotus Notes as an
>>>application server, I cannot comment on the scaleability.
>>>
>>>Also you probably should not compare Lotus to Oracle or Novell as they

>>>are completely different animials in this sense.
>>>
>>>It has been my experience that no matter what your requirements are for
>>
>>
>>>a development environment, choosing just one tool is next to impossible.
>>
>>
>>> You will need to choose the tools that are appropriate to do the job
>>
>>
>>>and integrate.
>>>
>>>Also keep in mind that JAVA on the desktop has virtually failed (in my

>>>opinion only!) with the exception of some tools and IDE's. It appears

>>>that the server is where JAVA shines.
>>>
>>>Good Luck!
>>>Dan
>>>
>>>Michael Gautier wrote:
>>>
>>>>At my shop there are three contingents, Microsoft, Java and Mainframe.
>>>
>> The
>>
>>>>Mainframe has upgraded their systems and is capable of running Java so
>>>
>> there
>>
>>>>is an interest in bringing the technology expertise in (as cheaply as
>>>>possible). Additionally, you have infrastructure folks that want to move
>>>>everything to Linux, but the Microsoft Application Developers are holding
>>>>them back. So there are political as well as technical aspects that might
>>>>rule out Lotus in the short term. Although, getting rid of Exchange might
>>>
>> be
>>
>>>>tempting, but then you have Oracle versus Lotus, versus Novell. However,
>>>
>> I
>>
>>>>am intrigued by the native offline capabilities. I guess it may depend
>>>
>> on
>>
>>>>how long it would take to develop it in Java versus learning how to take
>>>>advantage of it in Lotus. At present offline considerations are pushing
>>>>things in the direction of a desktop client, but I would have to figure
>>>
>> out
>>
>>>>how important offline capabilities are (basic versus advanced
>>>>functionality). Thanks for the head up though. If you are aware of any
>>>
>> other
>>
>>>>packages that offer offline capabilities, I would appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"solex" <solex@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:3d761e02$1@10.1.10.29...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Michael,
>>>>>I have no idea of your application design but have you looked at Lotus
>>>>>Notes, for straight data entry it is really easy to deploy. It will
>>>>>statisfy your Offline needs natively and is cross platform. Deployment
>>>>>will require a lotus notes client, but client applications are
>>>>>automatically updated when changes are made to the server application.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Michael Gautier wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your
many
>>>>>
>>>>years
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data
entry
>>>>>>application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline
>>>>>
>>>>requirements,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,
>>>>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>following matrix was proposed:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>Cross Platform X X X X
>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>Offline X X X
>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>Consistency N/A ? X X X
>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>Learning Curve Moderate High High
>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The
>>>>>
>>>>predetermined
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have
>>>>>
>>>>been
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>slated for development. This would compete against an existing product
>>>>>
>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want
>>>>>
>> to
>>
>>>>beat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable
and
>>>>>
>>>>was
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more
UIs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are
>>>>>
>>>>acceptable
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that
>>>>>
>>>>Java
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
>>>>>>2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the
>>>>>
>>>>customer's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case.
>>>>>
>> The
>>
>>>>>>decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
>>>>>>3. Would anyone do anything differently?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank
>>>>>
>> you
>>
>>>>>>in advance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>

Flash MX is developing into a very powerful tool.

One problem with using Java applets/plugins is that they can tend to be a
bit sluggish, and in a nutshell, they don't have much "flash". ;]

Flash has much closer ties to XML now for handling data access. This is an
arena that I am just getting started with, but you can do just about anything
you'd ever want from a data-meets-user application in Flash as you can in
other platforms. It is fully object oriented, but be prepared for a *completely*
different programming experience. For a starter, Flash does *no* syntax checking,
so if you're a relatively undisciplined coder you could be in for a pretty
rough ride. Flash won't give you compiler errors, or even run-time errors,
it just skips whatever it doesn't understand. Your first project should be
an in-movie debugger window.

Basically everything you'll need to know about developing "applications"
in Flash is covered very well in two books published by Macromedia. Beginner
and Advanced Flash.

Benefits: *Very* rich user interface. Completely portable with a ridiculously
small runtime plug-in that installs in seconds. Can be hosted on a local
machine using a couple different techniques.

Risks: Often times obtuse & unforgiving development environment.

Steve.

What is the typical development tactic for Swing (or SWT)? Do you open a
Java Editor and start drag and drop or are the Swing forms and element
composed non visually?

What are the best tools for Java Client development and what are the
tradeoffs?


"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d7776e0$1@10.1.10.29...
>
> Swing is not perfect. But most people have problems because they don't
know
> what they are doing or try to code the same old way.
>
> There is an additional Java GUI API called SWT which is used in the
Eclipse
> IDE. It is as quick as native and is cross platform.
>
> My point is that no matter what you use, do your best to use it on the
client
> and server. Otherwise duplicate coding will occur or work arounds to deal
> with development platform differences. Sometimes this is necessary but
why
> if it isn't necessary.
>
>
> solex <solex@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >
> >We must clarify to Michael that everything we say here is our opinion.
> >While I do not necessarily agree with your opinion re: Java on the
> >client, (based on some personal experience and alot of reading others
> >opinions) it is great the you are able to implement it successfully.
> >
> >Here is an article I found on the comp.lang.java.advocacy news group
> >that might be of interest:
> >
>
>http://linux.sarang.net/ftp/mirror/d...qt-vs-java-whi
tepaper.pdf
> >
> >Regards,
> >Dan
> >
> >MarkN wrote:
> >> Java on the client has 'failed' only due to FUD, misuse and
misunderstanding.
> >> Many places are using Java successfully on the client. We are. And
> in
> >> doing so we have not limited ourselves or our clients to Windows on the
> desktop
> >> or the server. I don't think it has failed on the client. I think it
> is
> >> underused. I see this as an opportunity. Especially since the Linux
> use
> >> is on the rise. As the IT departments begin to use it more and more on
> the
> >> server then they will see how easy it is and be able to implement it on
> the
> >> desktop. Lastly, I see no reason to learn 2 major development
platforms
> >> (ie Java and .Net) when one will do very well for both and is not
limited
> >> by hardware. Java has only 'shined' on the server because it will run
> on
> >> any platform, isn't as difficult as C/C++ and the servers-side is still
> very
> >> diverse.
> >>
> >> Lotus Notes is a very good tool. But typically it is misused (In the
> same
> >> way VB has been). I am glad to see IBM finally intergrate it with its
> other
> >> products (DB2/Websphere). Replication is a major plus for LN. But
then,
> >> as Dan said, you will have to deal with other major issues.
> >>
> >> What really do you need to do 'offline'?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> solex <solex@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Michael,
> >>>
> >>>I don't mean to push Lotus Notes but it is on just about all the major
>
> >>>platforms including but not limited to: Windows, Linux, AS400, Solaris.
> >>>
> >>>In terms of offline capabilities Lotus Notes is the only software that
> I
> >>
> >>
> >>>know of that supports replication effectively. Although Oracle has/had
> >>
> >>
> >>>Mobile Objects with Oracle Lite as does Microsoft Access, they have not
> >>
> >>
> >>>been doing replication nearly as long a Lotus, although they might be
>
> >>>something to look into. A downside to Lotus is that it is next to
> >>>impossible to do complex relational type operations, for instance
> >>>complex reports.
> >>>
> >>>Lotus Notes supports JAVA as a development language and is J2EE so if
>
> >>>JAVA is a consideration you might want to consider Lotus Notes as an
> >>>application server, I cannot comment on the scaleability.
> >>>
> >>>Also you probably should not compare Lotus to Oracle or Novell as they
>
> >>>are completely different animials in this sense.
> >>>
> >>>It has been my experience that no matter what your requirements are for
> >>
> >>
> >>>a development environment, choosing just one tool is next to
impossible.
> >>
> >>
> >>> You will need to choose the tools that are appropriate to do the job
> >>
> >>
> >>>and integrate.
> >>>
> >>>Also keep in mind that JAVA on the desktop has virtually failed (in my
>
> >>>opinion only!) with the exception of some tools and IDE's. It appears
>
> >>>that the server is where JAVA shines.
> >>>
> >>>Good Luck!
> >>>Dan
> >>>
> >>>Michael Gautier wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>At my shop there are three contingents, Microsoft, Java and Mainframe.
> >>>
> >> The
> >>
> >>>>Mainframe has upgraded their systems and is capable of running Java so
> >>>
> >> there
> >>
> >>>>is an interest in bringing the technology expertise in (as cheaply as
> >>>>possible). Additionally, you have infrastructure folks that want to
move
> >>>>everything to Linux, but the Microsoft Application Developers are
holding
> >>>>them back. So there are political as well as technical aspects that
might
> >>>>rule out Lotus in the short term. Although, getting rid of Exchange
might
> >>>
> >> be
> >>
> >>>>tempting, but then you have Oracle versus Lotus, versus Novell.
However,
> >>>
> >> I
> >>
> >>>>am intrigued by the native offline capabilities. I guess it may depend
> >>>
> >> on
> >>
> >>>>how long it would take to develop it in Java versus learning how to
take
> >>>>advantage of it in Lotus. At present offline considerations are
pushing
> >>>>things in the direction of a desktop client, but I would have to
figure
> >>>
> >> out
> >>
> >>>>how important offline capabilities are (basic versus advanced
> >>>>functionality). Thanks for the head up though. If you are aware of any
> >>>
> >> other
> >>
> >>>>packages that offer offline capabilities, I would appreciate it.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>"solex" <solex@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3d761e02$1@10.1.10.29...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Michael,
> >>>>>I have no idea of your application design but have you looked at
Lotus
> >>>>>Notes, for straight data entry it is really easy to deploy. It will
> >>>>>statisfy your Offline needs natively and is cross platform.
Deployment
> >>>>>will require a lotus notes client, but client applications are
> >>>>>automatically updated when changes are made to the server
application.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Dan
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Michael Gautier wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your
> many
> >>>>>
> >>>>years
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data
> entry
> >>>>>>application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline
> >>>>>
> >>>>requirements,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new
requirements,
> >>>>>
> >>>>the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>following matrix was proposed:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
> >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>Cross Platform X X X X
> >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>Offline X X X
> >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
> >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>Consistency N/A ? X X X
> >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
> >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
> >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>Learning Curve Moderate High High
> >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The
> >>>>>
> >>>>predetermined
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have
> >>>>>
> >>>>been
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>slated for development. This would compete against an existing
product
> >>>>>
> >>>>that
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want
> >>>>>
> >> to
> >>
> >>>>beat
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable
> and
> >>>>>
> >>>>was
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more
> UIs.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are
> >>>>>
> >>>>acceptable
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense
that
> >>>>>
> >>>>Java
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>My questions:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the
technologies?
> >>>>>>2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the
> >>>>>
> >>>>customer's
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case.
> >>>>>
> >> The
> >>
> >>>>>>decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
> >>>>>>3. Would anyone do anything differently?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank
> >>>>>
> >> you
> >>
> >>>>>>in advance.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >
>

Problem is that they (and I) have already invested in .NET and we have
existing code we wanted to reuse on the project going forward. The main PC
development language there is VB6 on NT 4. It was easier to move into .NET
than it was to do anything else. Also, when the project was first
communicated to me I was told there would be three phases, 1). Batch System
2) Web System 3) Offline Capable System. The people supervising me only know
mainframe and so this was their first major foray into PC based technology
solutions on the Web and Backend. They were more interested in the
technology for the backend than the web (but thier customers wanted the
web). So here we are, on the cusp of web development (1 - 2 months away) and
the boss is thinking of developing 1 UI that is offline capable and cross
platform rather than having a cross platform web system and a windows
specific offline system. Change of strategy just happened (all of this
change is subject to executive approval though).

The thing is, there were no indications that things would develop this way
because until now, the mindset was browser based and since the shop was
invested in asp, vb6 and now .NET, the thoughts weren't there.

I guess I am looking for a fallback position that would be mutually
advantageous to the client and myself. The client needs something developed
rather quickly, we have all this .NET stuff developed (cost money in hourly
wages) and most of my experience is with Windows/Web based technologies. I
have skills and techniques in picking up new technologies (fast), but I
guess I am trying to figure out the best direction, dump .NET after doing
for such a while or do Java regardless of the decisions? Personally, my
manager is leaning towards Flash (he's hooked).

So MarkN, anyone, what do you think. I am asking you because I have biases
that cloud my thinking as of the moment.


"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d773ef6$1@10.1.10.29...
>
> You could fall back to your current knowledge area. That still limits the
> serverside to one platform. But if this is not a concern for you or the
> client (read: they've got lots of $) then go ahead. I wouldn't but that
> is the way I feel.
>
> The thing is even if they take it off the table and you go back to a
browser
> only implementation then you are stuck or will end up with 2 interfaces if
> they change their minds. But clients never change their minds. With the
> current technology available there is little reason to implement a GUI
interface
> (of any complexity) in HMTL/Browser. It can still be used what it was
originally
> intended and it does that well.
>
> "Michael Gautier" <gautier_michael@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >With the cross platform concerns and your feedback I am recommending
Java.
> >The question I have is what would be my fallback position if the offline
> >requirement is taken off the table?
> >
> >
> >
> >"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d75e193$1@10.1.10.29...
> >>
> >> Michael. If client cross platform is the requirement w/ offline then
> you
> >> are limited to Java and maybe Flash (I don't know how well Flash works
> >'offline'
> >> - depends on what you need to do). .Net on the client (other than
serving
> >> up HTML) is a long way off on any other 'mainstream' platform - and
there
> >> is no assurance to their compatibility level (past experience says it
> is
> >> not good).
> >>
> >> I would say is that if you really understand .Net technology then the
> Java
> >> curve will not be that great. I would say less than Flash. As for
Java
> >> and Java applets - if you code properly the code can be 99% the same -
> we
> >> are doing it. We switched from Applet housed to Application in about
> an
> >> hour. As for offline capability - Hope that isn't included in 2-3
months.
> >> I think you said not.
> >>
> >> If you have any server side requirements, while Flash can create cool
> UIs,
> >> Flash may not be the best choice if you want to do good OO coding.
This
> >> may not be an issue for you or is something you are willing to risk.
> >>
> >> At one of my clients - our Java client just runs on XP while VB clients
> >are
> >> still being tested and bugs worked out.
> >>
> >> You are at a difficult point. It is very difficult to pick
technologies
> >> without a good deal of experience with them. Seems most of your
[current]
> >> technology knowledge is mostly WebForms. And since that is your
knowledge
> >> area, you are leaning towards that and that is not good.
> >>
> >> Mark
> >>
> >> "Michael Gautier" <vb@vb.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your
many
> >> years
> >> >of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
> >> >
> >> >There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data
entry
> >> >application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline
> >requirements,
> >> >I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,
> >the
> >> >following matrix was proposed:
> >> >
> >> > WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >Cross Platform X X X X
> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >Offline X X X
> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >Consistency N/A ? X X X
> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >Learning Curve Moderate High High
> >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> >Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The
> >predetermined
> >> >delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have
> been
> >> >slated for development. This would compete against an existing product
> >that
> >> >is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want
> to
> >> beat
> >> >out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and
> >was
> >> >to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more
UIs.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are
> >acceptable
> >> >tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that
> >Java
> >> >or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
> >> >
> >> >My questions:
> >> >
> >> >1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
> >> >2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the
> >customer's
> >> >desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case.
> The
> >> >decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
> >> >3. Would anyone do anything differently?
> >> >
> >> >I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank
> you
> >> >in advance.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>