what do I do?

I am a VB developer and am convinced I need to move onto Java. Recent
developments in the USA Courts have lead me to think on this. I feel a
little vunerable only knowing VB.
I am not trying to say that VB will not be needed in the near future, but do
feel that in the long run a cross-platform language would be more
appropriate...Anyway enough of my rambling, what I am looking for is some
points of view on Java and where it stands . I.e - is it a developing arena
or a dying one, is it as versitile as VB?
I have played with Java using Microsofts Visual J++6 and also would like to
know what your experiences are of differing development tools.
All in all just tell me what you think and what the future holds for Java.
thanks

--
James Jenkins
www.uniquities.co.uk
Windows 2000 users >>> http://msagent.scripterz.org

I think its important to learn complementary languages. I am very very
familiar with VB and love it, its a great langauge for RAD - far better than
Java, but then Java is a lot younger - and a lot slower in my experience.
But I specialise in web stuff, and have been dragged into the Java arena
because of that. It doesn't matter what tools you choose,

Learn it...learn it slowly if you have to but learn it.

Regards

John Timney (MVP)



Jim <Jim@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:38eb789c@news.devx.com...
> I am a VB developer and am convinced I need to move onto Java. Recent
> developments in the USA Courts have lead me to think on this. I feel a
> little vunerable only knowing VB.
> I am not trying to say that VB will not be needed in the near future, but
do
> feel that in the long run a cross-platform language would be more
> appropriate...Anyway enough of my rambling, what I am looking for is some
> points of view on Java and where it stands . I.e - is it a developing
arena
> or a dying one, is it as versitile as VB?
> I have played with Java using Microsofts Visual J++6 and also would like
to
> know what your experiences are of differing development tools.
> All in all just tell me what you think and what the future holds for Java.
> thanks
>
> --
> James Jenkins
> www.uniquities.co.uk
> Windows 2000 users >>> http://msagent.scripterz.org
>
>
>

I think its important to learn complementary languages. I am very very
familiar with VB and love it, its a great langauge for RAD - far better than
Java, but then Java is a lot younger - and a lot slower in my experience,
for both deployment
and development. VB will be around for a long time yet as Java still is a
bit of a niche market,
I expect Sun will change that if they can, its certainly a lot better than
it was.

I specialise in web stuff, and was dragged into the Java arena
because of that, it certainly has its uses when traditional solutions aren't
suitable.

It doesn't matter what tools you choose, I write all my java in notepad and
that suffices
for me. but there are some useful gui's out there that others prefer. It
really depends on
your level of expertise, VB developers are used to a very rich language and
you only tend to get
low level when your faced with the API, thus its a lazy language...thats
what makes it attractive.
This makes Java a tricky language for VB developers without experience in
C++ and they can struggle
with the syntax.

If I was you I would try to learn it...learn it slowly if you have to but
learn it because when it
comes to languages two is far better than one....its quite good fun too and
you'll soon see where
it can be useful to you.

Regards

John Timney (MVP)



Jim <Jim@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:38eb789c@news.devx.com...
> I am a VB developer and am convinced I need to move onto Java. Recent
> developments in the USA Courts have lead me to think on this. I feel a
> little vunerable only knowing VB.
> I am not trying to say that VB will not be needed in the near future, but
do
> feel that in the long run a cross-platform language would be more
> appropriate...Anyway enough of my rambling, what I am looking for is some
> points of view on Java and where it stands . I.e - is it a developing
arena
> or a dying one, is it as versitile as VB?
> I have played with Java using Microsofts Visual J++6 and also would like
to
> know what your experiences are of differing development tools.
> All in all just tell me what you think and what the future holds for Java.
> thanks
>
> --
> James Jenkins
> www.uniquities.co.uk
> Windows 2000 users >>> http://msagent.scripterz.org
>
>
>

please ignore my mad mail day ....

:)

Hello Jim:

I too was a "VB guy" and moved to Java about 2 years ago. 2 things attracted
me to Java:

1. The ability to embed compiled, full-fledged (albeit limited by security)
programs inside a web page and

2. The ability to deploy to platforms other than Windows with a minimum of
work.

These 2 things are still true but the exciting aspects of Java are now almost
exclusively occuring on the server. So let's add a 3rd attraction:

3. The ability to deliver web applications that can be hosted in a variety
of server implementations without the applet security restrictions.

I use Visual Cafe to write my programs and am very happy with it. I also
teach Java at a local college and use Cafe in the classroom as they provide
a very flexible licensing program (site licenses are free to educational
institutions!). Cafe's IDE is much like VB's in many respects and you might
find it the least painful to switch to.

I've used J++ in the past and was very disappointed. Microsoft doesn't want
anyone to really buy into the write once run anywhere paradigm, for obvious
reasons. Rather, they see J++ as an attractive, object oriented way to use
Java to write Win32 apps. As soon as I saw the Component project in the
Web templates folder I gave up on J++. These components can only be hosted
by IE and what good is that? In addition, a visual designer for applets
isn't even available. Finally, J++ uses the JDK v 1.1.4 as a result of those
pending lawsuits with Sun. That JVM is woefully behind what other, more
current IDEs offer.

If you're looking for some advice, download as many of the free IDEs as you
can and pick out one that you like. Inprise has a free version of JBuilder
and Sun offers the Community edition of Forte for nothing. You can also
try out many other IDEs for a limited time like Kawa, JDeveloper, and, I
think, Cafe. Sure, you can get by by writing all of your apps in Notepad
and compiling and testing with the JDK but why would you? Nobody is writing
their webpages in Notepad anymore simply because of the proliferation of
decent GUI development tools. Soon, IMHO, nobody will be writing Java apps
in Notepad either.

My two cents.

Tom Duffy

"Jim" <Jim@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I am a VB developer and am convinced I need to move onto Java. Recent
>developments in the USA Courts have lead me to think on this. I feel a
>little vunerable only knowing VB.
>I am not trying to say that VB will not be needed in the near future, but
do
>feel that in the long run a cross-platform language would be more
>appropriate...Anyway enough of my rambling, what I am looking for is some
>points of view on Java and where it stands . I.e - is it a developing arena
>or a dying one, is it as versitile as VB?
>I have played with Java using Microsofts Visual J++6 and also would like
to
>know what your experiences are of differing development tools.
>All in all just tell me what you think and what the future holds for Java.
>thanks
>
>--
>James Jenkins
>www.uniquities.co.uk
>Windows 2000 users >>> http://msagent.scripterz.org
>
>
>

Jim,

I'm primarily a C++ programmer, but I've also been using VB for GUI development
since version 3. Initially I was wary of Java because of the massive media
hype surrounding it. Recently though, I've started using Java to develop
Servlets, and I'm really impressed with the language in general. Yes, it
is versatile and highly productive.

I think you should scrap Visual J++ though - IMHO it's the most useless piece
of software Microsoft has ever released (and that's saying a lot). Download
the latest JDK from java.sun.com and get yourself a good text editor (I use
Visual Slick-Edit). If nothing else you'll have broadened your horizons and
learned some new skills in the process.

Steven M. Mathers



"Jim" <Jim@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I am a VB developer and am convinced I need to move onto Java. Recent
>developments in the USA Courts have lead me to think on this. I feel a
>little vunerable only knowing VB.
>I am not trying to say that VB will not be needed in the near future, but
do
>feel that in the long run a cross-platform language would be more
>appropriate...Anyway enough of my rambling, what I am looking for is some
>points of view on Java and where it stands . I.e - is it a developing arena
>or a dying one, is it as versitile as VB?
>I have played with Java using Microsofts Visual J++6 and also would like
to
>know what your experiences are of differing development tools.
>All in all just tell me what you think and what the future holds for Java.
>thanks
>
>--
>James Jenkins
>www.uniquities.co.uk
>Windows 2000 users >>> http://msagent.scripterz.org
>
>
>

Jim, I really don't think, there is any thing to worry about. You are safe
with Java. I am a core VB developer, but one of my mini-projects on "Agents
for distributed Processing" made me go into Java. Since then, the story has
changed.

If you are just working on building User Interfaces, VB is ok, but if you
must do serious development work, then Java is your best tool, not J++ (No,
not J++). I used Inprise Jbuilder as my development environment, rather than
notepad.

My advice:

1. Download the University Edition of Jbuilder for free ASAP.
2. Install it in your system
3. Move into Java ASAP.


Welcome to the club !!!


Tom


"Jim" <Jim@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I am a VB developer and am convinced I need to move onto Java. Recent
>developments in the USA Courts have lead me to think on this. I feel a
>little vunerable only knowing VB.
>I am not trying to say that VB will not be needed in the near future, but
do
>feel that in the long run a cross-platform language would be more
>appropriate...Anyway enough of my rambling, what I am looking for is some
>points of view on Java and where it stands . I.e - is it a developing arena
>or a dying one, is it as versitile as VB?
>I have played with Java using Microsofts Visual J++6 and also would like
to
>know what your experiences are of differing development tools.
>All in all just tell me what you think and what the future holds for Java.
>thanks
>
>--
>James Jenkins
>www.uniquities.co.uk
>Windows 2000 users >>> http://msagent.scripterz.org
>
>
>

Jim:

You can download a trial version of cocktail, a java enviroment for VB programmers.
This software have
a same toolbar that VB. The design is diferent but is a help for VB programmers.
The software is in
jar format, a tool similar to tar in unix. For install you need the SDK,
you download from Sun site.
The site from cocktail is www.applese.com

Atte.
Marcos Hernandez

"Jim" <Jim@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I am a VB developer and am convinced I need to move onto Java. Recent
>developments in the USA Courts have lead me to think on this. I feel a
>little vunerable only knowing VB.
>I am not trying to say that VB will not be needed in the near future, but
do
>feel that in the long run a cross-platform language would be more
>appropriate...Anyway enough of my rambling, what I am looking for is some
>points of view on Java and where it stands . I.e - is it a developing arena
>or a dying one, is it as versitile as VB?
>I have played with Java using Microsofts Visual J++6 and also would like
to
>know what your experiences are of differing development tools.
>All in all just tell me what you think and what the future holds for Java.
>thanks
>
>--
>James Jenkins
>www.uniquities.co.uk
>Windows 2000 users >>> http://msagent.scripterz.org
>
>
>

"Jim" <Jim@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I am a VB developer and am convinced I need to move onto Java. Recent
>developments in the USA Courts have lead me to think on this. I feel a
>little vunerable only knowing VB.
>I am not trying to say that VB will not be needed in the near future, but
do
>feel that in the long run a cross-platform language would be more
>appropriate...Anyway enough of my rambling, what I am looking for is some
>points of view on Java and where it stands . I.e - is it a developing arena
>or a dying one, is it as versitile as VB?
>I have played with Java using Microsofts Visual J++6 and also would like
to
>know what your experiences are of differing development tools.
>All in all just tell me what you think and what the future holds for Java.
>thanks
>
>--
>James Jenkins
>www.uniquities.co.uk
>Windows 2000 users >>> http://msagent.scripterz.org
>
>
>

The more you learn about Java the more you will like it. To me, Java is
a better high level language than, VB, C, C++,
SmallTalk, and others. It allows the precision close to what you would find
in C and C++ but makes it difficult to
make horrible errors such as memory leaks, returning variables that are going
out of scope, etc.

Do your self a favor un-install J++. (J++ is a waste of time and money!)

Learn Java using a text editor. (I use Emacs. Emacs is free and very difficult
to surpass for features etc. It is a little
difficult to learn at frist.)
A WYSIWYG product will help you for GUI. Try Forte for Java. You can get
it free from java.sun.com. It is very easy
to use. I would stick with the AWT classes unless your user pool is up for
installing a swing plug-in to their web
browsers.

Enjoy! :-)

MM

mmynsted@vha.com

I think you'll find that knowing Java pays off very quickly. As a serious
VB/C++ developer (with over 10,000 hours of VB development logged) I was
a bit unsure of making Java my prime development language at first. However,
after the fact, I discovered that the media attention and the future anticipation
(if not the current reality) of 'write once, run anywhere' has had the affect
of making project decision makers choose Java over VB even for projects where
VB might be a better option (i.e. Windows environment, rich GUI, app needs
to talk to other 'native' apps). Having said that, while Java is a more sophisticated
language in some ways and there are definitely things I can do in Java that
really can't be done at all in VB (or only with ugly workarounds), there
a a number of things that make Java GUI development harder work than VB,
including:
o The virtual machines, even on the same platform have differences that
can mean clients get to see errors that you don't
o Swing (Java Foundation Classes) isn't fully mature and compared to the
VB-supplied controls and those from the prime control vendors, it may seem
kind of buggy
o There's a huge number of Java classes and even the best documentation
is kind of incomplete. I recommend the 'Java 2.0: The complete reference'
for general Java information, but don't think that this is close to complete
even at 1100 pages for the 3rd Ed. Advanced topics such as reflection are
barely covered, let alone topics like using the text packages to write parsers.
The best Swing reference I've found is Java Swing by O'Reilly
o Since Java is supposed to run anywhere unchanged, it's hard to have Java
apps communicate with the operating system and unless you want to write JNI
DLLs, Windows features like the registry or the API are out of bounds. This
may mean that you'll end up writing extra code sometimes
o Swing is relatively slow to execute and you have to develop code carefully
to make it thread-safe. If you don't, you'll get things like screens that
paint incorrectly or don't appear to respond to resizing the way you expect
o Java changes more rapidly than VB and you may find code that you wrote
no longer works when you upgrade language versions

On the whole though, Java is a better OO language than VB and is more rewarding
to develop apps with. It has some quirks but is improving rapidly. It can
be use to develop some things that you just can't in VB and you'll probably
find it leads to a broader range of development tasks which is always interesing.

I use Visual Age for Java from IBM. There is a freely downloadable version
of this on their site. It's kind of nice in many ways but the screen builder
is a bit clunky at times. It has a very reliable code database. VJ++ is a
toy for writing Win32 apps in Java but I wouldn't use it for anything serious.

Andy
>
>"Jim" <Jim@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>I am a VB developer and am convinced I need to move onto Java. Recent
>>developments in the USA Courts have lead me to think on this. I feel a
>>little vunerable only knowing VB.
>>I am not trying to say that VB will not be needed in the near future, but
>do
>>feel that in the long run a cross-platform language would be more
>>appropriate...Anyway enough of my rambling, what I am looking for is some
>>points of view on Java and where it stands . I.e - is it a developing arena
>>or a dying one, is it as versitile as VB?
>>I have played with Java using Microsofts Visual J++6 and also would like
>to
>>know what your experiences are of differing development tools.
>>All in all just tell me what you think and what the future holds for Java.
>>thanks
>>
>>--
>>James Jenkins
>>www.uniquities.co.uk
>>Windows 2000 users >>> http://msagent.scripterz.org
>>
>>
>>
>

Jim,

Check out Bruce Eckel's book, "Thinking in Java". IMHO (very humble), it
seems to be the best of the "java books" so far.

http://www.bruceeckel.com/javabook.html

Good luck.

Regards,

Jim

"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Jim:
>
>I too was a "VB guy" and moved to Java about 2 years ago. 2 things attracted
>me to Java:
>
>1. The ability to embed compiled, full-fledged (albeit limited by security)
>programs inside a web page and
>
>2. The ability to deploy to platforms other than Windows with a minimum
of
>work.
>
>These 2 things are still true but the exciting aspects of Java are now almost
>exclusively occuring on the server. So let's add a 3rd attraction:
>
>3. The ability to deliver web applications that can be hosted in a variety
>of server implementations without the applet security restrictions.
>
>I use Visual Cafe to write my programs and am very happy with it. I also
>teach Java at a local college and use Cafe in the classroom as they provide
>a very flexible licensing program (site licenses are free to educational
>institutions!). Cafe's IDE is much like VB's in many respects and you might
>find it the least painful to switch to.
>
>I've used J++ in the past and was very disappointed. Microsoft doesn't
want
>anyone to really buy into the write once run anywhere paradigm, for obvious
>reasons. Rather, they see J++ as an attractive, object oriented way to
use
>Java to write Win32 apps. As soon as I saw the Component project in the
>Web templates folder I gave up on J++. These components can only be hosted
>by IE and what good is that? In addition, a visual designer for applets
>isn't even available. Finally, J++ uses the JDK v 1.1.4 as a result of
those
>pending lawsuits with Sun. That JVM is woefully behind what other, more
>current IDEs offer.
>
>If you're looking for some advice, download as many of the free IDEs as
you
>can and pick out one that you like. Inprise has a free version of JBuilder
>and Sun offers the Community edition of Forte for nothing. You can also
>try out many other IDEs for a limited time like Kawa, JDeveloper, and, I
>think, Cafe. Sure, you can get by by writing all of your apps in Notepad
>and compiling and testing with the JDK but why would you? Nobody is writing
>their webpages in Notepad anymore simply because of the proliferation of
>decent GUI development tools. Soon, IMHO, nobody will be writing Java apps
>in Notepad either.
>
>My two cents.
>
>Tom Duffy
>
>"Jim" <Jim@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>I am a VB developer and am convinced I need to move onto Java. Recent
>>developments in the USA Courts have lead me to think on this. I feel a
>>little vunerable only knowing VB.
>>I am not trying to say that VB will not be needed in the near future, but
>do
>>feel that in the long run a cross-platform language would be more
>>appropriate...Anyway enough of my rambling, what I am looking for is some
>>points of view on Java and where it stands . I.e - is it a developing arena
>>or a dying one, is it as versitile as VB?
>>I have played with Java using Microsofts Visual J++6 and also would like
>to
>>know what your experiences are of differing development tools.
>>All in all just tell me what you think and what the future holds for Java.
>>thanks
>>
>>--
>>James Jenkins
>>www.uniquities.co.uk
>>Windows 2000 users >>> http://msagent.scripterz.org
>>
>>
>>
>

I see that a free version of JBuilder is mentioned. Any idea where to get
it from the Inprise site. I checked but found no reference to it.

Thanks
Bridget Wagenbach


"Tom Oguara" <msc62txo@cs.bham.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>Jim, I really don't think, there is any thing to worry about. You are safe
>with Java. I am a core VB developer, but one of my mini-projects on "Agents
>for distributed Processing" made me go into Java. Since then, the story
has
>changed.
>
>If you are just working on building User Interfaces, VB is ok, but if you
>must do serious development work, then Java is your best tool, not J++ (No,
>not J++). I used Inprise Jbuilder as my development environment, rather
than
>notepad.
>
>My advice:
>
>1. Download the University Edition of Jbuilder for free ASAP.
>2. Install it in your system
>3. Move into Java ASAP.
>
>
>Welcome to the club !!!
>
>
>Tom
>
>
>"Jim" <Jim@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>I am a VB developer and am convinced I need to move onto Java. Recent
>>developments in the USA Courts have lead me to think on this. I feel a
>>little vunerable only knowing VB.
>>I am not trying to say that VB will not be needed in the near future, but
>do
>>feel that in the long run a cross-platform language would be more
>>appropriate...Anyway enough of my rambling, what I am looking for is some
>>points of view on Java and where it stands . I.e - is it a developing arena
>>or a dying one, is it as versitile as VB?
>>I have played with Java using Microsofts Visual J++6 and also would like
>to
>>know what your experiences are of differing development tools.
>>All in all just tell me what you think and what the future holds for Java.
>>thanks
>>
>>--
>>James Jenkins
>>www.uniquities.co.uk
>>Windows 2000 users >>> http://msagent.scripterz.org
>>
>>
>>
>

Jim,

I'm in the same boat as you! I have several years of VB Experience, and although
I am somewhat familiar with C, I won't go so far as to claim I'm a C Developer.

I've been ramping up on Java for the past 2 months now, and I find it a hugely
rewarding language. For the most part, I've found the "Write Once, Run Anywhere"
mantra to be true.. believe it or not!! In addition, I know that market is
heading toward Java, and Java Programmers are in growing demand.

As for VB.. we saw in the recently released specs of VB7, that it's heading
for Java-like syntax, and trying to get fully OO. Don't know if that will
pan out, but even if it doesn't, VB will always be part of my skillset, and
it certainly does have a valid claim on being a prominent language.

If nothing else, Java has given me exposure to a true OO language, and has
allowed me to develop richer Web applications taht I could using ASP or any
other VB/VBA centric tool.

I found out for myself what a worthless piece of junk J++ is! After experiencing
it myself, I see the complete validity of Sun's court battle with Microsoft.
I like Forte for Java, which is a free IDE distributed by Sun.

Regards,
Reuben Cleetus.

You can find the JBuilder Foundation edition at http://www.inprise.com/jbuilder/foundation/

Note that it requires Windows NT, and is 100% pure Java. The IDE can be a
bit kludgy at times, but on the whole, an excellent way to get started with
Java. You can also download a 30 day trial of "regular" JBuilder or a 30
day trial of Symantec's Visual Cafe to try out different IDE's--the choices
are far more vast than they are for VB.

That being said (even though I am a VB/VC++/Java guy myself), I can't suggest
strongly enough that you avoid VJ++ as your compiler choice.

Good Luck!

Lars


"Bridget" <bridget.wagenbach@daytonoh.ncr.com> wrote:
>
>I see that a free version of JBuilder is mentioned. Any idea where to get
>it from the Inprise site. I checked but found no reference to it.
>
>Thanks
>Bridget Wagenbach
>
>
>"Tom Oguara" <msc62txo@cs.bham.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>>Jim, I really don't think, there is any thing to worry about. You are safe
>>with Java. I am a core VB developer, but one of my mini-projects on "Agents
>>for distributed Processing" made me go into Java. Since then, the story
>has
>>changed.
>>
>>If you are just working on building User Interfaces, VB is ok, but if you
>>must do serious development work, then Java is your best tool, not J++
(No,
>>not J++). I used Inprise Jbuilder as my development environment, rather
>than
>>notepad.
>>
>>My advice:
>>
>>1. Download the University Edition of Jbuilder for free ASAP.
>>2. Install it in your system
>>3. Move into Java ASAP.
>>
>>
>>Welcome to the club !!!
>>
>>
>>Tom
>>
>>
>>"Jim" <Jim@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>I am a VB developer and am convinced I need to move onto Java. Recent
>>>developments in the USA Courts have lead me to think on this. I feel a
>>>little vunerable only knowing VB.
>>>I am not trying to say that VB will not be needed in the near future,
but
>>do
>>>feel that in the long run a cross-platform language would be more
>>>appropriate...Anyway enough of my rambling, what I am looking for is some
>>>points of view on Java and where it stands . I.e - is it a developing
arena
>>>or a dying one, is it as versitile as VB?
>>>I have played with Java using Microsofts Visual J++6 and also would like
>>to
>>>know what your experiences are of differing development tools.
>>>All in all just tell me what you think and what the future holds for Java.
>>>thanks
>>>
>>>--
>>>James Jenkins
>>>www.uniquities.co.uk
>>>Windows 2000 users >>> http://msagent.scripterz.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Hi all,