VB?? Visually BAD??

I am amased that people who use VB think they have a real programming language.
Compared to C, C++, Java, and Delphi, VB is a joke..

It's RAD, they say, but so is Java with Visual Cafe, JBuilder, Visual Age
for Java, and Forte on the Java side and C++ Builder on the C++ side... It's
easy to learn, guess that's why they call it Beginners All purpose....It's
powerful, if all you need it for is simple GUI interfaces and scripting code.
It's truly compiled, as long as you have the run time libraries. It's powerful,
as long as you do not have to do any low level or WIN API calls .. It's Object
Oriented, as long as you do not need inheritance, polymorphism, etc. It's
X-platform, as long as you work on Windows platforms.

The biggest complaint of VB people concerning Java is that Java is slow..
Compared to what?? Want to compare my C++ or Delphi app's speed to VB?? Then
VB is slow.. And VB isn't X-platform!! What's it's excuse?

Actually there are native compilers for Java. I can compile it natively for
many platforms and still do not have to rewrite the code when I want it to
run on another platform. I can make native calls if I wish to C++, and I
can even take my Java code and create a C++ header with the JDK.. I can tie
it to Corba for integration with legacy Cobol code, C and C++ Code, or, if
needs be, Delphi. VB will do none of the above.

Java is taking over.. C++ is the power tool... That's reality. Get use to
it and better yet, LEARN IT..

"pnichols" <pwnichols@home.com> wrote in message
news:38ffb4d5$1@news.devx.com...
>
> I am amased that people who use VB think they have a real programming
language.

You mean it's fake? ;). BTW, VB is not a programming language; it's an IDE
that uses BASIC as the programming language.

> It's RAD, they say, but so is Java with Visual Cafe, JBuilder, Visual Age
> for Java, and Forte on the Java side and C++ Builder on the C++ side...
It's
> easy to learn, guess that's why they call it Beginners All purpose....It's
> powerful, if all you need it for is simple GUI interfaces and scripting
code.

Have you ever used VB at all? VB can do far more than this.

> It's truly compiled, as long as you have the run time libraries.

And Java has the VM. Care to explain the difference? A VM or run-time
library is nothing new - the idea has been around far longer than either
Java or VB.

> It's powerful,
> as long as you do not have to do any low level or WIN API calls

Actually, it's the other way around. You sometimes have to dive into Win32
API calls to get the power of a Windows app in VB.

> .. It's Object Oriented, as long as you do not need inheritance,
polymorphism, etc.

On this I agree - VB is woefully short on the OO side of things. VB is
COM-based - therefore implementation inheritance is not supported. But
making VB's objects COM-based is even the biggest problem; VB's
implementation of COM is pretty twisted, which causes headaches in COM
component development. VB7, if MS delivers on its' claims, will be fully
OO.

> It's X-platform, as long as you work on Windows platforms.

And later on you say...

> And VB isn't X-platform!! What's it's excuse?

That clears it up ;). BTW, check out http://softworksltd.com/. VB on
Linux. It's beta and the implementation is limited, but someone's giving it
a shot.

> Java is taking over.. C++ is the power tool... That's reality. Get use to
> it and better yet, LEARN IT..

Java is a fine language. So is Python. So is Eiffel. So is C++. And more
to the point, XML-based protocols like SOAP will make the language and OS
wars completely and utterly obsolete. ~That's~ reality. No language will
ever become the uber-language of all developers. To be honest, I hope we
eventually move on from Java and create even better programming languages.
Programming is evolutionary and revolutionary. Saying that one language is
taking over (w/o any proof) is pretty short-sighted.

Regards,

Jason

"pnichols" <pwnichols@home.com> wrote:
>
>I am amased that people who use VB think they have a real programming language.
>Compared to C, C++, Java, and Delphi, VB is a joke..

You mean VB isn't real!?!? Wow, I guess all my paychecks and six-digit salary
must not be real either. And that brand new Porche sitting in my driveway
must be a product of my imagination, too. Get a life, loser. No, I take
that back. Get a clue, then get a life.

Cheers!

"pnichols" <pwnichols@home.com> wrote:
>I am amased that people who use VB think they have a real >programming language.
Compared to C, C++, Java, and Delphi, VB >is a joke..
>Java is taking over.. C++ is the power tool... That's reality. >Get use
to it and better yet, LEARN IT..

I'm trying, pnichols. I'm trying.

See, the trouble is this--to get a simple applet to work, I have to take
the following into account:
--Which browser is being used
--Which version of the browser is being used
--Are all of the methods or classes I'm using supported by the browser?
Even if the class has been around since Java 1.0, new methods are added with
each release. I have to visit the documentation quite frequently.
--I need disk access--oops! I'm going to have to sign my applet, and twice--Netscape
and IE have different signing mechanisms.
--If I really need Java 2 functionality, my users will have to download the
JRE and Java Plugin, then configure it. Oh, and then I have to reformat
my HTML to use the plugin.

To paraphrase Charlie Brown, good grief!

Add to this some more quirks:
--To access my IBM AS/400 data, I must download a 2MB JAR file everytime
the applet is accessed. Or I could install it manually and update the CLASSPATH.
Good luck doing that for the 350 users I need to serve at my work site.
This isn't a Java problem, it's an IBM problem. But it does show the immaturity
of the language.
--None of the IDEs are anywhere as advanced as VB's IDE. And a decent debugger
is nowhere to be found.

A decision is to be made soon as to the platform, DB, and language for the
next version of our court case management application. Though my head tells
me to go with Java, how can I in good conscience make that decision with
all of the idiosyncracies the language has?

Curt King <curtking@net1.net> wrote in message
news:3904e928$1@news.devx.com...
>
> "pnichols" <pwnichols@home.com> wrote:
> To paraphrase Charlie Brown, good grief!
>
> --To access my IBM AS/400 data, I must download a 2MB JAR file everytime
> the applet is accessed. Or I could install it manually and update the
CLASSPATH.
> Good luck doing that for the 350 users I need to serve at my work site.
> This isn't a Java problem, it's an IBM problem. But it does show the
immaturity
> of the language.
>
> A decision is to be made soon as to the platform, DB, and language for the
> next version of our court case management application. Though my head
tells
> me to go with Java, how can I in good conscience make that decision with
> all of the idiosyncracies the language has?

I don't want anything to do with all of the "My language is better than your
language, nyah nyah" stuff. But for your AS/400 connection, why don't you
run the data access portion as servlets on the AS/400 and call those
servlets from a greatly reduced applet? Or you could even have the applets
call CGI programs on the AS/400 that are written in RPG (not as scalable as
servlets).

"pnichols" <pwnichols@home.com> wrote:
>
>I am amased that people who use VB think they have a real programming language.
Two words. Short Sighted. This view of VB has been around since VB was
created, and frankly up until VB 5, VB was on the verge of not being a "real
programming language". However, with VB 6, it is as much of a programming
language as anything else on the market.
>Compared to C, C++, Java, and Delphi, VB is a joke..
>
>It's RAD, they say, but so is Java with Visual Cafe, JBuilder, Visual Age
>for Java, and Forte on the Java side and C++ Builder on the C++ side...
It's
>easy to learn, guess that's why they call it Beginners All purpose....It's
>powerful, if all you need it for is simple GUI interfaces and scripting
code.
>It's truly compiled, as long as you have the run time libraries. It's powerful,
>as long as you do not have to do any low level or WIN API
calls
This is just completely wrong. Even VB 3 could make calls to the Win API.
However, you have to do a lot more work to make direct Win API calls, but
you can write a VB application that is almost exclusively Win API calls.
This takes about 3 times as long to create an application, which then you
are starting to get into the amount of time it takes to develop a C++ application,
so use C++.
> .. It's Object
>Oriented, as long as you do not need inheritance, polymorphism, etc.
I cannot say that I have ever heard anyone who knows about OO and VB say
the VB is OO. But, VB can do polymorphism, it is just that it can only do
polymorphism. If you think I am wrong about this check out your books on
OO and then check out VB's COM implementation.
>It's
>X-platform, as long as you work on Windows platforms.
It is interesting that you point this out, because I don't believe I have
ever seen anyone state that VB is for other platforms. However, even Java,
with it's VM, can be coded to be platform dependent, just like C++.
>
>The biggest complaint of VB people concerning Java is that Java is slow..
>Compared to what?? Want to compare my C++ or Delphi app's speed to VB??
Then
>VB is slow.. And VB isn't X-platform!! What's it's excuse?
>
Again, I must point out how interesting your comparisions are, since the
difference in the speed of a VB application as compared to a C++ is insignificant
when comparing Java to VB.
>Actually there are native compilers for Java. I can compile it natively
for
>many platforms and still do not have to rewrite the code when I want it
to
>run on another platform.
Again, once the Java is compiled it is platform dependent unless you recompile
it for another platform.
>I can make native calls if I wish to C++, and I
>can even take my Java code and create a C++ header with the JDK.. I can
tie
>it to Corba for integration with legacy Cobol code, C and C++ Code, or,
if
>needs be, Delphi. VB will do none of the above.
As soon as you do these things with Java you run the risk of loosing your
precious platform independence. As soon as you loose platform independence,
Java cannot compare to VB.
>
>Java is taking over.. C++ is the power tool... That's reality. Get use to
>it and better yet, LEARN IT..
Actually, in a way I agree with you. I feel that everyone should have to
learn programming logic. And the reason I feel this way is that then it
does not matter which language you use, you still have the base logic to
work from. Also, I would like to add that I currently program in Java, using
JBuilder, C++, using VC++, and VB. I have also programmed in Pascal, Assymbly,
COBOL, C, and various other off the wall languages. This is my final point,
each language has benefits, and drawbacks, because of this each language
has it place, VB for Windows GUIs, C++ for backend systems, and Java for
those times with platform independence is a benefit.
>
>
>