demand for programmers

[Mr. Canada]

I'm a programmer in Canada with a background in SQLServer, VB COM, ASP,HTML,
etc.,(about 3 years experience with a couple of degrees in CompSci and Chemistry).
I'm anxious to move south to the U.S. since I'm from a small city and I need
more opportunity. I was wondering if current I.T. layoffs have in anyway
dampened the demand for programmers in the U.S. especial for those of us
wanting to move in on a work visa. I've tried a couple of recruiters who
were very productive for me before Christmas but since then its been dead.
Are my skills not in demand? (that is the microsoft path to web development)
Do I need to re-align myself into another group of technologies?

I appreciate the input.

[John Cantley]

No things are not at all dead. At least here in Chicago. The people
getting laid off are getting sucked up before they get out the door. You can
keep going with MS stuff, it is going to get even more interesting with .NET
coming out and the Sun - MS java suit over.

John

"Mr. Canada" <dbehl@accesscomm.ca> wrote in message
news:3a75b4e7$1@news.devx.com...
>
> I'm a programmer in Canada with a background in SQLServer, VB COM,
ASP,HTML,
> etc.,(about 3 years experience with a couple of degrees in CompSci and
Chemistry).
> I'm anxious to move south to the U.S. since I'm from a small city and I
need
> more opportunity. I was wondering if current I.T. layoffs have in anyway
> dampened the demand for programmers in the U.S. especial for those of us
> wanting to move in on a work visa. I've tried a couple of recruiters who
> were very productive for me before Christmas but since then its been dead.
> Are my skills not in demand? (that is the microsoft path to web
development)
> Do I need to re-align myself into another group of technologies?
>
> I appreciate the input.

[simon]

The current IT layoff was imminent not because the demand is less but
because of the mis-management and poor corporate strategy (Lucent is a good
example). Many companies are still hiring and the market for *experienced*
developers is still tight.

However, it might be a little harder with the work visa. I know Texas
Instrument just hired some foreign programmers with H1 visa solely because
they cannot find anyone in the domestic market. But then, it is for R&D
work and not web development, which seems to be what everyone wants to get
into, and therefore, make it harder for you to compete with domestic
programmers.

And yes, many companies are still using Microsoft technologies for their web
development, despite how hot Java is recently. But to broaden your skill,
there is no down side to pick up some C++ and Java experience.

Hope this helps.

simon.



"Mr. Canada" <dbehl@accesscomm.ca> wrote in message
news:3a75b4e7$1@news.devx.com...
>
> I'm a programmer in Canada with a background in SQLServer, VB COM,
ASP,HTML,
> etc.,(about 3 years experience with a couple of degrees in CompSci and
Chemistry).
> I'm anxious to move south to the U.S. since I'm from a small city and I
need
> more opportunity. I was wondering if current I.T. layoffs have in anyway
> dampened the demand for programmers in the U.S. especial for those of us
> wanting to move in on a work visa. I've tried a couple of recruiters who
> were very productive for me before Christmas but since then its been dead.
> Are my skills not in demand? (that is the microsoft path to web
development)
> Do I need to re-align myself into another group of technologies?
>
> I appreciate the input.

[Scott McWilliams]

"simon" <substring0@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
>
I know Texas
>Instrument just hired some foreign programmers with H1 visa solely because
>they cannot find anyone in the domestic market,
<Snip>

Simon,

I don't know where you're located, but this is definitely _not_ the case,
at least as far as the Dallas area is concerned. There are plenty of 'domestic'
software engineers to be found in the Metroplex, many of whom have little
or no interest in just doing web development.

I was a TI'er for seven years before our division was sold and would still
be there had I been given the choice. I would gladly return under the right
circumstances, but TI doesn't seem to be too interested at the moment (I
submitted a resume in December - we were barred from re-applying to TI for
25 months after leaving the new company, or it would've been _much_ sooner).
During my tenure at TI, I was recognized numerous times for outstanding
performance, so someone must've thought I was doing something right. I know
for a fact I'm not the only one, either, so please don't tell me TI has to
go far to find good candidates.

Whatever the reason behind TI's hiring of H1-B visa holders may be, it certainly
isn't the lack of qualified and available 'domestic' candidates.

Just my $0.02.

Scott

[simon]

Scott,

I got the info from the hiring manager and that's the reason the manager
gave me. Of course I cannot drill into the mind to find out if it is the
real reason or not. Nevertheless, TI is *famous* for laying off people on
one hand and hiring people on the other hand. So who knows?

If you read my previous postings, you know I am an advocate for hiring
domestic workers first before hiring from outside the country. And I
practice that religiously. However, companies do a lot of things for
business reasons or for political reasons, and we may not be able to
understand why.

By the way, correct me if I am wrong, I thought the hiring company has to
prove that after the job was posted for a certain period of time and nobody
qualifies for the position in order to sponsor a foreign worker. Am I
right?

And of course, I can't give you the name and location to protect the
innocence. Hope you understand.

simon.



"Scott McWilliams" <scottmcwilliams@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a7872d8$1@news.devx.com...
>
> "simon" <substring0@hotmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> I know Texas
> >Instrument just hired some foreign programmers with H1 visa solely
because
> >they cannot find anyone in the domestic market,
> <Snip>
>
> Simon,
>
> I don't know where you're located, but this is definitely _not_ the case,
> at least as far as the Dallas area is concerned. There are plenty of
'domestic'
> software engineers to be found in the Metroplex, many of whom have little
> or no interest in just doing web development.
>
> I was a TI'er for seven years before our division was sold and would still
> be there had I been given the choice. I would gladly return under the
right
> circumstances, but TI doesn't seem to be too interested at the moment (I
> submitted a resume in December - we were barred from re-applying to TI for
> 25 months after leaving the new company, or it would've been _much_
sooner).
> During my tenure at TI, I was recognized numerous times for outstanding
> performance, so someone must've thought I was doing something right. I
know
> for a fact I'm not the only one, either, so please don't tell me TI has to
> go far to find good candidates.
>
> Whatever the reason behind TI's hiring of H1-B visa holders may be, it
certainly
> isn't the lack of qualified and available 'domestic' candidates.
>
> Just my $0.02.
>
> Scott

[Scott McWilliams]

Simon,

No offense intended.

My main point was this: the 'no qualified domestic candidates' statement
seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy for many companies. Perhaps, as you
suggested, this is in order to mask other reasons or promote other agendas.
I don't know, but I do care.

Glad to hear of your stance regarding hiring. Personally, I just want the
best person for the position, regardless of who they are or their country
of origin. Sounds as if you feel the same.

I believe you are correct with respect to the steps necessary to hire a foreign
worker. I know I had to certain procedures to follow in order to hire someone
while I was at TI, no matter who.

Of course I understand you can't give me any names or locations. Wouldn't
want 'em, anyway.

Fundamentally, I think we're on the same page here. The TI reference just
hit a nerve.

Have a good one.

Scott

"simon" <substring0@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Scott,
>
>I got the info from the hiring manager and that's the reason the manager
>gave me. Of course I cannot drill into the mind to find out if it is the
>real reason or not. Nevertheless, TI is *famous* for laying off people
on
>one hand and hiring people on the other hand. So who knows?
>
>If you read my previous postings, you know I am an advocate for hiring
>domestic workers first before hiring from outside the country. And I
>practice that religiously. However, companies do a lot of things for
>business reasons or for political reasons, and we may not be able to
>understand why.
>
>By the way, correct me if I am wrong, I thought the hiring company has to
>prove that after the job was posted for a certain period of time and nobody
>qualifies for the position in order to sponsor a foreign worker. Am I
>right?
>
>And of course, I can't give you the name and location to protect the
>innocence. Hope you understand.
>
>simon.
>
>

<big snip>

[Elena]

"simon" <substring0@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Scott,
>
>By the way, correct me if I am wrong, I thought the hiring company has to
>prove that after the job was posted for a certain period of time and nobody
>qualifies for the position in order to sponsor a foreign worker. Am I
>right?

Nominally, yes. But there are a lot of ways around this. Post a bogus newspaper
ad and "disqualify" everyone that applies. Bring the people in thru a contract
company (and thus they are not "hired"). Insist on some odd combination
of skills and then hire an H1B that doesn't match the criteria you "had to
have" for the domestic worker. I don't think there's any sort of "audit"
on an individual basis - - only if the company is abusing the system on a
large scale.

[simon]

Scott,

None taken. And I do understand your frustration. Anyway, I was just
trying to tell the original poster that if he wants to work in the US, he
might have to find a niche market to get in and not the "popular" area of
work.

But then of course, if he can find those unscrupulous employers as Eleanor
has mentioned, that's another story and IMHO, that is out of the scope of
this newsgroup discussion.

simon.


"Scott McWilliams" <scottmcwilliams@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a79a565$1@news.devx.com...
>
> Simon,
>
> No offense intended.
>
> My main point was this: the 'no qualified domestic candidates' statement
> seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy for many companies. Perhaps, as you
> suggested, this is in order to mask other reasons or promote other
agendas.
> I don't know, but I do care.
>
> Glad to hear of your stance regarding hiring. Personally, I just want the
> best person for the position, regardless of who they are or their country
> of origin. Sounds as if you feel the same.
>
> I believe you are correct with respect to the steps necessary to hire a
foreign
> worker. I know I had to certain procedures to follow in order to hire
someone
> while I was at TI, no matter who.
>
> Of course I understand you can't give me any names or locations. Wouldn't
> want 'em, anyway.
>
> Fundamentally, I think we're on the same page here. The TI reference just
> hit a nerve.
>
> Have a good one.
>
> Scott
>
> "simon" <substring0@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Scott,
> >
> >I got the info from the hiring manager and that's the reason the manager
> >gave me. Of course I cannot drill into the mind to find out if it is the
> >real reason or not. Nevertheless, TI is *famous* for laying off people
> on
> >one hand and hiring people on the other hand. So who knows?
> >
> >If you read my previous postings, you know I am an advocate for hiring
> >domestic workers first before hiring from outside the country. And I
> >practice that religiously. However, companies do a lot of things for
> >business reasons or for political reasons, and we may not be able to
> >understand why.
> >
> >By the way, correct me if I am wrong, I thought the hiring company has to
> >prove that after the job was posted for a certain period of time and
nobody
> >qualifies for the position in order to sponsor a foreign worker. Am I
> >right?
> >
> >And of course, I can't give you the name and location to protect the
> >innocence. Hope you understand.
> >
> >simon.
> >
> >
>
> <big snip>

[simon]

Elena,

So sorry that I mis-spelled your name. It's been a long day..... and I am
only half way thru. My goodness!

simon.

[Elena]

"simon" <substring0@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Elena,
>
>So sorry that I mis-spelled your name. It's been a long day..... and I
am
>only half way thru. My goodness!
>
>simon.
>

No problem - - lots of people find my name difficult to spell.

Regarding the H1Bs, I visit several IT "career advice" boards around the
web and questions from foreign nationals wanting to come to the US to work
are by far the most common. I usually don't respond because I just don't
know what to tell them. On the one hand, there is a lengthy legal procedure
and yearly quotas and laws that, on the surface, seem to indicate one would
need much more than a undergraduate degree in some IT-related field to come
here and work. On the other hand, in my daily experience I run across so
many young people with no more (and sometimes not even) a 4-year degree who
ARE working here and are on their way to getting the green card. I know there
are some contract companies who systematically flaunt the laws but they aren't
responsible for ALL these young people. So for any of you wanting to come
to the US to work - - I guess the answer is "give it your best shot" and
see what happens!

[Mr. Mexico]

Hi Mr. Ca

Well, let me expose my case, currently I'm applying for an H1B Visa through
a branch's american company dedicated to outsourcing in several business
fields, IT among them. I'm from Mexico, currently I'm MCSE, MCSD, MCDBA,
MCP + Internet and MCT (if u know microsoft u know what all this letters
mean), they extend me an offer last november and they find me 'cause I posted
a message in a kind of this message boards complaining exaclty abt the same
ur doing in this! =).

A good guy see my message and contact me saying that the company for which
he was working for constantly hire people, specially foreigners to fill their
positions, in fact this company has hired people from places like Kenia!
(gee!)

I must recognize that I was very lucky to find someone willing to help, BUT
I cant leave aside the fact that my certifications were a very strong point
to notice and consider by them. This branch, where I'm applying to get the
job is in Phoenix, I think that maybe u r looking USA's south states due
the shiny and warm wheater, if that's the reason Phoenix would be perfect
for u! believe me.

BUT, think abt it, the whole process to get the visa is long, for me has
taken 2 loooong months until now, and probably I'd have to wait for 2 more,
anyway, I hope this bring u back the hope that u will find a job in USA and
microsoft is still a good option when u r thinking abt what skills give u
a great value in the american job market nowadays.


Good luck

[Frustrated IT Worker]

Congrats on your new job!

Just don't let this company take advantage of you! Try to find out what the
salary rate is in the Phoenix area and don't fall into the trap that by taking
a low rate you are doing yourself any favors. Consulting firms like to hire
foreigners because they can make a lot of money from people such as yourself.
Make sure that it is a win/win situation.

"Mr. Mexico" <trabajo@miguel-angel.com> wrote:
>
>Hi Mr. Ca
>
>Well, let me expose my case, currently I'm applying for an H1B Visa through
>a branch's american company dedicated to outsourcing in several business
>fields, IT among them. I'm from Mexico, currently I'm MCSE, MCSD, MCDBA,
>MCP + Internet and MCT (if u know microsoft u know what all this letters
>mean), they extend me an offer last november and they find me 'cause I posted
>a message in a kind of this message boards complaining exaclty abt the same
>ur doing in this! =).
>
>A good guy see my message and contact me saying that the company for which
>he was working for constantly hire people, specially foreigners to fill
their
>positions, in fact this company has hired people from places like Kenia!
>(gee!)
>
>I must recognize that I was very lucky to find someone willing to help,
BUT
>I cant leave aside the fact that my certifications were a very strong point
>to notice and consider by them. This branch, where I'm applying to get the
>job is in Phoenix, I think that maybe u r looking USA's south states due
>the shiny and warm wheater, if that's the reason Phoenix would be perfect
>for u! believe me.
>
>BUT, think abt it, the whole process to get the visa is long, for me has
>taken 2 loooong months until now, and probably I'd have to wait for 2 more,
>anyway, I hope this bring u back the hope that u will find a job in USA
and
>microsoft is still a good option when u r thinking abt what skills give
u
>a great value in the american job market nowadays.
>
>
>Good luck

[simon]

Well said. Many consulting firms are in fact using foreign labors solely
because they can pay them at a lower rate while charging their clients at
the premium price.... in another word, maximizing their profits.
Furthermore, if you are on a H1B visa, your are pretty much "stucked" with
that firm, because if you quit, you have to go home. That means, shall I
say, they can do almost anything to you.

One more thing, they pay you only based on "billable hours". You could be
sitting in the office all day and then work at the client site all night,
but they are not going to pay you for the time you sit in the office. It
could be very frustrating. I personally know an MCSE who quitted the
consulting firm because of that (well, he is American, so he can quit).

So, make sure you know how deep the water is before you dive in!

simon.



"Frustrated IT Worker" <frustrated@frustrated.com> wrote in message
news:3a865799$1@news.devx.com...
>
> Congrats on your new job!
>
> Just don't let this company take advantage of you! Try to find out what
the
> salary rate is in the Phoenix area and don't fall into the trap that by
taking
> a low rate you are doing yourself any favors. Consulting firms like to
hire
> foreigners because they can make a lot of money from people such as
yourself.
> Make sure that it is a win/win situation.
>
> "Mr. Mexico" <trabajo@miguel-angel.com> wrote:
> >
> >Hi Mr. Ca
> >
> >Well, let me expose my case, currently I'm applying for an H1B Visa
through
> >a branch's american company dedicated to outsourcing in several business
> >fields, IT among them. I'm from Mexico, currently I'm MCSE, MCSD, MCDBA,
> >MCP + Internet and MCT (if u know microsoft u know what all this letters
> >mean), they extend me an offer last november and they find me 'cause I
posted
> >a message in a kind of this message boards complaining exaclty abt the
same
> >ur doing in this! =).
> >
> >A good guy see my message and contact me saying that the company for
which
> >he was working for constantly hire people, specially foreigners to fill
> their
> >positions, in fact this company has hired people from places like Kenia!
> >(gee!)
> >
> >I must recognize that I was very lucky to find someone willing to help,
> BUT
> >I cant leave aside the fact that my certifications were a very strong
point
> >to notice and consider by them. This branch, where I'm applying to get
the
> >job is in Phoenix, I think that maybe u r looking USA's south states due
> >the shiny and warm wheater, if that's the reason Phoenix would be perfect
> >for u! believe me.
> >
> >BUT, think abt it, the whole process to get the visa is long, for me has
> >taken 2 loooong months until now, and probably I'd have to wait for 2
more,
> >anyway, I hope this bring u back the hope that u will find a job in USA
> and
> >microsoft is still a good option when u r thinking abt what skills give
> u
> >a great value in the american job market nowadays.
> >
> >
> >Good luck
>

[Elena]

Simon is exactly right with one minor change. There is supposed to have been
a very recent change in the H1B regulations that DO allow the person to quit
and move to another employer - - but the foreign national must start the
whole H1B process over again with the new company. Of course, you must find
another employer willing to sponsor your visa. Not great, but a slight improvement
over the old process. The change was made in response to exactly these kinds
of situations where the foreign national was being taken advantage of.

Elena


"simon" <substring0@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Well said. Many consulting firms are in fact using foreign labors solely
>because they can pay them at a lower rate while charging their clients at
>the premium price.... in another word, maximizing their profits.
>Furthermore, if you are on a H1B visa, your are pretty much "stucked" with
>that firm, because if you quit, you have to go home. That means, shall
I
>say, they can do almost anything to you.
>
>One more thing, they pay you only based on "billable hours". You could
be
>sitting in the office all day and then work at the client site all night,
>but they are not going to pay you for the time you sit in the office. It
>could be very frustrating. I personally know an MCSE who quitted the
>consulting firm because of that (well, he is American, so he can quit).
>
>So, make sure you know how deep the water is before you dive in!
>
>simon.
>
>

[simon]

Thanks for the update, Elena. Well, since we are talking about money here,
I am sure that those consulting companies are "highly motivated" to find
another loop hole or work-around on the new law.

simon.



"Elena" <egermano@home.com> wrote in message
news:3a8825ad$1@news.devx.com...
>
> Simon is exactly right with one minor change. There is supposed to have
been
> a very recent change in the H1B regulations that DO allow the person to
quit
> and move to another employer - - but the foreign national must start the
> whole H1B process over again with the new company. Of course, you must
find
> another employer willing to sponsor your visa. Not great, but a slight
improvement
> over the old process. The change was made in response to exactly these
kinds
> of situations where the foreign national was being taken advantage of.
>
> Elena
>
>
> "simon" <substring0@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Well said. Many consulting firms are in fact using foreign labors solely
> >because they can pay them at a lower rate while charging their clients at
> >the premium price.... in another word, maximizing their profits.
> >Furthermore, if you are on a H1B visa, your are pretty much "stucked"
with
> >that firm, because if you quit, you have to go home. That means, shall
> I
> >say, they can do almost anything to you.
> >
> >One more thing, they pay you only based on "billable hours". You could
> be
> >sitting in the office all day and then work at the client site all night,
> >but they are not going to pay you for the time you sit in the office. It
> >could be very frustrating. I personally know an MCSE who quitted the
> >consulting firm because of that (well, he is American, so he can quit).
> >
> >So, make sure you know how deep the water is before you dive in!
> >
> >simon.
> >
> >
>