Future of Java....


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  1. #1
    JW Guest

    Future of Java....


    I'm quite new to the IT field having experience in VB but thinking of moving
    into Java, but what I heard from more senior people in the industry is not
    very encouraging.They say that the future of Java is not that bright as it
    is now.I wish to know what you think about this ...

    Thank you,

    JW

  2. #2
    David K. Guest

    Re: Future of Java....


    JW:

    In the IT field, there is always change. No matter what language or technology
    you decide to concentrate in, you'll find that there comes a point when it's
    obsolete. If you want to stay in this field, you have to be confortable
    with learning new things.

    That being said, I think that Java will be still be around for awhile. There
    are a lot of big companies that are firmly committed to Java. If you become
    a Java expert, you'll probably be able to make a nice living in the near
    term. Meanwhile, keep up to date on the industry so when it looks like Java
    is faltering, you can move on to something else.

    In particular, keep an eye on Microsoft's .NET technologies. Microsoft is
    introducing a new language called C# which is very similar to Java. The
    good thing, though, is that if you are a Java expert, the move from Java
    to C# should be fairly painless. So if it looks like C# is becoming the
    dominant language in say, 3-5 years, you'll be able to adapt.

    "JW" <janekw77@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >
    >I'm quite new to the IT field having experience in VB but thinking of moving
    >into Java, but what I heard from more senior people in the industry is not
    >very encouraging.They say that the future of Java is not that bright as

    it
    >is now.I wish to know what you think about this ...
    >
    >Thank you,
    >
    >JW



  3. #3
    Ian Hossie Guest

    Re: Future of Java....


    "JW" <janekw77@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >
    >I'm quite new to the IT field having experience in VB but thinking of moving
    >into Java, but what I heard from more senior people in the industry is not
    >very encouraging.They say that the future of Java is not that bright as

    it
    >is now.I wish to know what you think about this ...
    >
    >Thank you,
    >
    >JW


    Just from personal observation...

    I have no work experience with Java, but I have taken some courses in it.
    And from what I can see, VB and C++ still have some advantages over it.
    C++ because it's, well, C++ and VB because you can develop application with
    it in a much shorter period of time.

    I found that it took a lot of code to develop a GUI app with Java, and that
    it took much longer then it would with VB. Now, I wasn't using Swing(tm),
    but from what I've heard it slows down your application considerably.

    However...

    Microsoft is coming out with C# and VB.Net for a reason: Java can handle
    inheritance, and VB can't. Whether or not Java succeeds as a language or
    not depends on whether or not C# and VB.Net end up having all of Java's functionality
    and VB's lower development time.

    Ian





  4. #4
    Matthew Cromer Guest

    Re: Future of Java....



    >
    >I have no work experience with Java, but I have taken some courses in it.
    >And from what I can see, VB and C++ still have some advantages over it.


    >C++ because it's, well, C++ and VB because you can develop application with
    >it in a much shorter period of time.


    C++ is really putrid stuff for developing business applications, unless you
    enjoy spending all your time debugging memory management and love to master
    arcane syntaxes.

    >
    >I found that it took a lot of code to develop a GUI app with Java, and that
    >it took much longer then it would with VB. Now, I wasn't using Swing(tm),
    >but from what I've heard it slows down your application considerably.


    So you haven't used the technology.

    Did you do your GUI in notepad or with a Java IDE?

    I can't see why clicking textboxes from a palette in VB6 would be any easier
    than clicking textboxes from a palette in Forte. I've done both, both are
    equivalent.

    >
    >However...
    >
    >Microsoft is coming out with C# and VB.Net for a reason: Java can handle
    >inheritance, and VB can't. Whether or not Java succeeds as a language or
    >not depends on whether or not C# and VB.Net end up having all of Java's

    functionality
    >and VB's lower development time.


    I don't see where this "lower development time" comes in. I've done both
    and the visual editors for Java are comparable to the VB6 GUI IDE.

    Matthew Cromer

  5. #5
    Matthew Cromer Guest

    Re: Future of Java....


    else.
    >
    >In particular, keep an eye on Microsoft's .NET technologies. Microsoft

    is
    >introducing a new language called C# which is very similar to Java. The
    >good thing, though, is that if you are a Java expert, the move from Java
    >to C# should be fairly painless. So if it looks like C# is becoming the
    >dominant language in say, 3-5 years, you'll be able to adapt.


    Why should C# and the CLR become dominant? Java has been here a while and
    .NET isn't slated for release for many moons. .NET will only run on Windows
    and Java runs on just about everything. Only one vendor will give you a
    .NET IDE, there are dozens of Java IDEs, several compilers and runtimes.

    The world is bigger than just MS only, particularly on the server side.
    Dotnet locks you into a Windows-only universe on the server, so you can kiss
    goodbye investments in non-MS hardware. I hope DotNet doesn't kill Java
    or we can kiss innovation on the server goodbye.

    Matthew Cromer

  6. #6
    Matthew Cromer Guest

    Re: Future of Java....


    "JW" <janekw77@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >
    >I'm quite new to the IT field having experience in VB but thinking of moving
    >into Java, but what I heard from more senior people in the industry is not
    >very encouraging.They say that the future of Java is not that bright as

    it
    >is now.I wish to know what you think about this ...
    >
    >Thank you,
    >
    >JW


    JW, you should know that 90% of the readers here use MS development tools,
    so that may color the responses.

    Matthew Cromer


  7. #7
    David K. Guest

    Re: Future of Java....


    "Matthew Cromer" <matthew@sdaconsulting.com> wrote:
    >Why should C# and the CLR become dominant? Java has been here a while and
    >.NET isn't slated for release for many moons. .NET will only run on Windows
    >and Java runs on just about everything. Only one vendor will give you a
    >.NET IDE, there are dozens of Java IDEs, several compilers and runtimes.
    >
    >The world is bigger than just MS only, particularly on the server side.


    >Dotnet locks you into a Windows-only universe on the server, so you can

    kiss
    >goodbye investments in non-MS hardware. I hope DotNet doesn't kill Java
    >or we can kiss innovation on the server goodbye.
    >
    >Matthew Cromer


    Matthew:

    I think you misread my original post. I did NOT claim that C# and CLR would
    become the dominant platform. In fact, I think that concentrating on Java
    is a good idea. However, whether you like it or not, Microsoft is a very
    influential company. Because of this, if you are a developer in this field,
    it is a good idea to keep an eye on what they are doing.

    IF (and that is a big if) C# does catch on, and IF (again, I said if) C#
    takes away market share from Java, it would be wise from a career standpoint
    to keep up to date in C#. However, as you pointed out, C# is still in the
    beta phase so, in the near term, it isn't a serious threat to Java in the
    near term. In 3-5 years, it be wise to re-evaluate the situation.

    All languages go through a life cycle: they are born, they evolve, they
    die out. That is why you always need to keep your pulse on the marketplace
    to see what tools are being used and what skills are in demand. That was
    the point I was trying to make



  8. #8
    robert Guest

    Re: Future of Java....


    What is your reason for moving to Java? Money? Then go sell cars or stocks.
    Programming doesn't make that much money anyhow. You do it because you love
    it.

    If you ENJOY programming in Java, that should be reason alone, given that
    there are something like 3 million Java programmers out there. Oh, maybe
    there are 6M VB programmers, but still 3M is a lot. I don't think this is
    a make-or-break decision.

    I've spent my entire life looking for security and safety, and I ended up
    doing nothing at all compared to what I could have done with my life if I
    had embraced risk. Take a chance if something turns you on. How often do
    you get a chance to, anyhow? I suggest you get in touch with your feelings,
    Luke. (Sorry -- a quote from Star Wars).

    Go look at the following resources and see what Java programmers are saying
    about their futures.

    javapro.com
    javasoft.com
    devx (this site)
    IBM's java site
    gamelan.com
    magelang.com
    etc. -- I can't think of them all, there must be 30 sites easy.

    By the looks of it, Java could become the "internet VB" of the 2000's. So
    it's slow. OK. And it has a limited market. OK. And it isn't as bug-free
    as it looks. OK. It's still a multi-billion dollar industry and a profession
    that pays good money for satisfying work. Just listening to all the Ex-VB
    and Ex-C++ programmers swear how nice it is makes me happy! :-)
    (an old Pascal hack, myself)


    "JW" <janekw77@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >
    >I'm quite new to the IT field having experience in VB but thinking of moving
    >into Java, but what I heard from more senior people in the industry is not
    >very encouraging.They say that the future of Java is not that bright as

    it
    >is now.I wish to know what you think about this ...
    >
    >Thank you,
    >
    >JW



  9. #9
    Ian Hossie Guest

    Re: Future of Java....


    "Matthew Cromer" <matthew@sdaconsulting.com> wrote:

    >
    >C++ is really putrid stuff for developing business applications, unless
    >you enjoy spending all your time debugging memory management and love to
    >master arcane syntaxes.
    >


    True, but it does give you a lot of control. Perhaps too much control, but
    that's another story.

    >>
    >>I found that it took a lot of code to develop a GUI app with Java, and

    that
    >>it took much longer then it would with VB. Now, I wasn't using Swing(tm),
    >>but from what I've heard it slows down your application considerably.

    >
    >So you haven't used the technology (Swing(tm).


    No, I haven't. I've still heard it slows things down considerably. If this
    isn't true, then so be it. But I have heard some people complain about it.


    >
    >Did you do your GUI in notepad or with a Java IDE? I can't see why >clicking

    textboxes from a palette in VB6 would be any easier
    >than clicking textboxes from a palette in Forte. I've done both, both are
    >equivalent.


    I started out with Notepad and the Sun compiler, and then moved to J++.
    I liked J++ a **** of a lot more then I liked Notepad, but I still found
    that it generally took longer to write the same generic code in Java then
    in VB.

    As for the palettes, part of the problem I've found with Java is that you
    really do need to have a good IDE to work with. Some are good, others aren't.
    If you choose the wrong one to start with, it'll cost you time down the road.

    >
    >I don't see where this "lower development time" comes in. I've done both
    >and the visual editors for Java are comparable to the VB6 GUI IDE.
    >


    The fact that I've worked more heavily with VB then with Java probably colours
    my judgement to some extent. But just based on the code in general, I don't
    think that as I get more familiar with Java that things are going to improve
    much. The bottom line is : it doesn't get any simpler then VB.

    My opinion only, put as much weight on it as you'd like.

    Ian




  10. #10
    andy Guest

    Re: Future of Java....


    "Matthew Cromer" <matthew@sdaconsulting.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >C++ is really putrid stuff for developing business applications, unless

    you
    >enjoy spending all your time debugging memory management and love to master
    >arcane syntaxes.
    >


    I strongly disagree that your assessment that C++ is "putrid". If it was
    not fit for business apps, then why is COM so popular? (Of course C++ is
    at the heart of COM). There are numerous benchmarks that prove that a C++
    app will run circles around an equivalant Java app anyday.

    C/C++ will outlive all of the languages in this discussion (Java, VB, etc).
    Why? Because as long as the OS's that we use are written in C/C++ (Windows,
    Unix, Linux), it will never die. Try to write an OS in Java.

  11. #11
    Matthew Cromer Guest

    Re: Future of Java....


    "andy" <andy@zr1.com> wrote:
    >
    >"Matthew Cromer" <matthew@sdaconsulting.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>C++ is really putrid stuff for developing business applications, unless

    >you
    >>enjoy spending all your time debugging memory management and love to master
    >>arcane syntaxes.
    >>

    >
    >I strongly disagree that your assessment that C++ is "putrid".


    It is putrid for developing business apps.

    If it was
    >not fit for business apps, then why is COM so popular? (Of course C++ is
    >at the heart of COM).


    This is a non-sequitor.

    First off, COM is not very popular with most developers who use it. Most
    everyone I know who has used COM for a while is ready for it to go away.
    Do you know what REGCLEAN is? Ever have to deal with Binary Compatibility?
    Do you know what an OCA file is? Dealing with Java's component issues is
    a dream in comparison.

    Second of all, while COM was initially defined in terms of C++, most COM
    business component development these days is done with VB. While it is true
    that most COMMERCIAL COM components are written in C++, the actual business
    rules objects are generally not. Why? Because C++ forces the programmer
    to spend a lot of time and effort managing memory instead of writing useful
    features in the program. There are a lot of other problems with C++, for
    example the fact that it is a remarkably unproductive language due to excessive
    complex syntax, non-orthogonal language constructs, and large number of housekeeping
    tasks required when writing C++ code.




    There are numerous benchmarks that prove that a C++
    >app will run circles around an equivalant Java app anyday.


    And benchmarks showing Java apps running just as fast. One can prove anyting
    with selective benchmarks.

    In any event, DB and network code spends 99% of its time waiting for the
    next piece of data from the wire, so the difference is immaterial for most
    business tasks.


    >
    >C/C++ will outlive all of the languages in this discussion (Java, VB, etc).
    >Why? Because as long as the OS's that we use are written in C/C++ (Windows,
    >Unix, Linux), it will never die. Try to write an OS in Java.



    Try to write business software in C++. It has been tried over and over and
    inevitably fails or costs way too much and takes way too long. Use the right
    tool for the job. . .

    Matthew Cromer


  12. #12
    andy Guest

    Re: Future of Java....


    >
    > If it was
    >>not fit for business apps, then why is COM so popular? (Of course C++ is
    >>at the heart of COM).

    >
    >This is a non-sequitor.
    >
    >First off, COM is not very popular with most developers who use it. Most
    >everyone I know who has used COM for a while is ready for it to go away.
    > Do you know what REGCLEAN is? Ever have to deal with Binary Compatibility?
    > Do you know what an OCA file is? Dealing with Java's component issues

    is
    >a dream in comparison.
    >
    >Second of all, while COM was initially defined in terms of C++, most COM
    >business component development these days is done with VB. While it is

    true
    >that most COMMERCIAL COM components are written in C++, the actual business
    >rules objects are generally not. Why? Because C++ forces the programmer
    >to spend a lot of time and effort managing memory instead of writing useful
    >features in the program. There are a lot of other problems with C++, for
    >example the fact that it is a remarkably unproductive language due to excessive
    >complex syntax, non-orthogonal language constructs, and large number of

    housekeeping
    >tasks required when writing C++ code.
    >


    I agree the VB COM has it's drawbacks (ie. binary compatibility), but I don't
    consider VB to be "real" COM anyway... it's just a high-level wrapper. BUT,
    there are no other component technologies in existence that can beat the
    power of a C++ COM component.

    > There are numerous benchmarks that prove that a C++
    >>app will run circles around an equivalant Java app anyday.

    >
    >And benchmarks showing Java apps running just as fast. One can prove anyting
    >with selective benchmarks.
    >
    >In any event, DB and network code spends 99% of its time waiting for the
    >next piece of data from the wire, so the difference is immaterial for most
    >business tasks.
    >


    Why do all you Java people think that Java apps can run as fast as C++ apps?
    Must be Sun's brainwashing techniques. Because all instructions must first
    go through the VM, it's IMPOSSIBLE for it to run as fast as natively compiled
    code. Ever seen a Java GUI app? They are pathetic performance-wise. Even
    VB apps are faster.

    >
    >>
    >>C/C++ will outlive all of the languages in this discussion (Java, VB, etc).
    >>Why? Because as long as the OS's that we use are written in C/C++ (Windows,
    >>Unix, Linux), it will never die. Try to write an OS in Java.

    >
    >
    >Try to write business software in C++. It has been tried over and over

    and
    >inevitably fails or costs way too much and takes way too long. Use the

    right
    >tool for the job. . .
    >
    >Matthew Cromer
    >


    That's what I do for a living, thank you... write business components in
    C++. Just because you are not capable of writing memory-efficient code, doesn't
    mean that the entire C++ language is not suitable for business apps. I have
    chosen the right tool for the job.

    Java was and is a fad language. Now that the hype is dying down, you don't
    see as high demand anymore. As more companies (like Borland) continue to
    write cross-compilers for multiple platforms like Windows and Linux (ie.
    Kylix), people will start to dump Java in favor of native compilers. I've
    always said that Java would be much better if they would have shipped native
    compilers as an alternative to the VM. The VM is fine if you NEED to move
    your .class files between platforms, but seriously, how much trouble is it
    to simply recompile the same code on another platform? So why didn't Sun
    do that? Because they are scared that people will get in the habit of compiling
    only for Windows. And now everyone [using Java] has to pay the price.


  13. #13
    Matthew Cromer Guest

    Re: Future of Java....


    "andy" <andy@zr1.com> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> If it was
    >>>not fit for business apps, then why is COM so popular? (Of course C++

    is
    >>>at the heart of COM).

    >>
    >>This is a non-sequitor.
    >>
    >>First off, COM is not very popular with most developers who use it. Most
    >>everyone I know who has used COM for a while is ready for it to go away.
    >> Do you know what REGCLEAN is? Ever have to deal with Binary Compatibility?
    >> Do you know what an OCA file is? Dealing with Java's component issues

    >is
    >>a dream in comparison.
    >>
    >>Second of all, while COM was initially defined in terms of C++, most COM
    >>business component development these days is done with VB. While it is

    >true
    >>that most COMMERCIAL COM components are written in C++, the actual business
    >>rules objects are generally not. Why? Because C++ forces the programmer
    >>to spend a lot of time and effort managing memory instead of writing useful
    >>features in the program. There are a lot of other problems with C++, for
    >>example the fact that it is a remarkably unproductive language due to excessive
    >>complex syntax, non-orthogonal language constructs, and large number of

    >housekeeping
    >>tasks required when writing C++ code.
    >>

    >
    >I agree the VB COM has it's drawbacks (ie. binary compatibility), but I

    don't
    >consider VB to be "real" COM anyway... it's just a high-level wrapper. BUT,
    >there are no other component technologies in existence that can beat the
    >power of a C++ COM component.
    >
    >> There are numerous benchmarks that prove that a C++
    >>>app will run circles around an equivalant Java app anyday.

    >>
    >>And benchmarks showing Java apps running just as fast. One can prove anyting
    >>with selective benchmarks.
    >>
    >>In any event, DB and network code spends 99% of its time waiting for the
    >>next piece of data from the wire, so the difference is immaterial for most
    >>business tasks.
    >>

    >
    >Why do all you Java people think that Java apps can run as fast as C++ apps?


    Because in many cases they can. In others they cannot.

    >Must be Sun's brainwashing techniques. Because all instructions must first
    >go through the VM, it's IMPOSSIBLE for it to run as fast as natively compiled
    >code.


    Wrong. With JIT and dynamic compilation technologies, a java program can
    get natively compiled by the class loading mechanism. I'd advise you to
    refrain from commenting on areas you don't know much about.

    >Ever seen a Java GUI app? They are pathetic performance-wise.


    Swing apps running on Suns JDK 1.3 are more than adequate, snappy even, on
    decent hardware (200MHz and up). It's true that the GUI was sluggish, but
    it is now more than sufficient. There are issues in developing a cross-platform
    GUI and it has takes Sun a while to get performance up to par, particularly
    given the excellent object-oriented design of swing that makes the non-orthogonal
    hodgepodge of C++ models like MFC unbearably poor.

    Even
    >VB apps are faster.


    Faster at what? Our java apps using the JDBC are WAY faster than our VB
    apps using ADO, sometimes by an order of magnitude.

    >>Try to write business software in C++. It has been tried over and over

    >and
    >>inevitably fails or costs way too much and takes way too long. Use the

    >right
    >>tool for the job. . .
    >>
    >>Matthew Cromer
    >>

    >
    >That's what I do for a living, thank you... write business components in
    >C++. Just because you are not capable of writing memory-efficient code,

    doesn't
    >mean that the entire C++ language is not suitable for business apps.


    Memory efficiency isn't the issue. Memory leaks are.


    I have
    >chosen the right tool for the job.


    C++ is a very poor choice for most businesses because it requires the programmer
    to spend a lot of time dealing with memory management and memory leak prevention
    / detection / correction instead of writing business-relevant code. Additionally,
    most developers are not able to write C++ code without creating memory bugs.
    The pool of developer talent able to modify and maintain this code over
    time is very small, much more likely is that modification over time by new
    developers will damage and degrade working code because the memory management
    issues are so complex.

    BTW, what are you planning to do now that MS has itself said C++ and COM
    is not suitable for writing business apps, and introduced Dotnet (read MSJava)
    to replace it?

    >
    >Java was and is a fad language. Now that the hype is dying down, you don't
    >see as high demand anymore.


    I see Java demand greatly increasing every year, not "dying down" at all.

    As more companies (like Borland) continue to
    >write cross-compilers for multiple platforms like Windows and Linux (ie.
    >Kylix), people will start to dump Java in favor of native compilers.


    Except Microsoft and Sun and Oracle are all moving to Java and Java-clone
    technologies. I'd say the whole industry was moving away from native compilation
    and towards virtual machines / dynamic compilation. What companies, other
    than Borland, can you cite for evidence of a renaissance in native compilation?


    I've
    >always said that Java would be much better if they would have shipped native
    >compilers as an alternative to the VM.


    You can, of course, get native compilers for Java, if you want to go to that
    trouble. Heck, Oracle even throws in a Java to C compiler with their database.

    The VM is fine if you NEED to move
    >your .class files between platforms, but seriously, how much trouble is

    it
    >to simply recompile the same code on another platform?


    It's nicer to just deal with jar files (containing class files), but anyone
    who wants to can get native compilation. When the files are in the java
    binary format, you can treat them as self-describing components, which enables
    mixed deployment strategies instead of monolithic deployments.

    So why didn't Sun
    >do that? Because they are scared that people will get in the habit of compiling
    >only for Windows. And now everyone [using Java] has to pay the price.


    People prefer the packaged class files because they are smaller less trouble
    and usually just as fast as the native binaries. And the cross-platform
    and code-safe binaries are a huge win--heck you can even run them in an Oracle
    database, not just on an OS platform.

    Matthew Cromer

    >



  14. #14
    simon Guest

    Re: Future of Java....

    When I first saw this thread, I knew it is a troll. And here we go again,
    down to this familiar road.... arguing about which programming tool is
    better.

    Bear in mind that, whether it is Java, or VB, or C++, it is just a TOOL!
    You use different tool for different job!!!! For example, if you are a
    carpenter, it is not important as of what tool you use, or whether it is a
    Craftsman or a Black & Decker. What is important is your craftsmanship!!!!
    Therefore, as a professional developer, it will be your logic, your
    algorithm, your problem-solving skill, and your knowledge in software design
    that are important.

    And last but not least, a good developer should ALWAYS know more than one
    language; just like a good carpenter should know how to use more than one
    tool.

    Enough said.

    simon.



    "JW" <janekw77@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3a7fb76d$1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > I'm quite new to the IT field having experience in VB but thinking of

    moving
    > into Java, but what I heard from more senior people in the industry is not
    > very encouraging.They say that the future of Java is not that bright as it
    > is now.I wish to know what you think about this ...
    >
    > Thank you,
    >
    > JW



  15. #15
    Ian Hossie Guest

    Re: Future of Java....


    "simon" <substring0@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >When I first saw this thread, I knew it is a troll. And here we go again,
    >down to this familiar road.... arguing about which programming tool is
    >better.
    >


    Besides, we all know that the Latin 6.0 (TM) is the one and only true language
    of our Holy Father.



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