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  1. #1
    Miguel Angel Gonzalez Guest

    IMHO


    I felt a little bit confused abt what this article claims. As far as I know
    even with all this disadvantages pointed here the IT industry is one of the
    most wanted professions that the americans like to do. Isn't that a little
    bit contradictory? I mean... in this and others forums is VERY common read
    messages from people stating that they DO want to make a shift in their careers
    to the IT industry, looking for entry positions or even students preparing
    themselves to make the best jump into the real world just after leaving the
    academia.

    Despite all the terrible future that is waiting for us (kidding) I think
    that one of the primary motivations to pursue a career in IT is precisely
    the constant challenge and learning proccess that make us feel happy!, that
    make us dont get bored and love our daily activity with enthusiasm and hope,
    not with fear and doom.

    Even more, a lot fo people is looking for a job in IT because the average
    salaries are much better than in other industries, so, far from feel unfortunate
    or pressed by the nature of this industry I think that we should feel happy
    to be part of a constant move and innovation.

    I dont want to sound rude or agressive but, come on! this industry can wait
    for the slow adopters either for the sedentary people, think about it, this
    industry is what it is today precisely for people that are always thinking
    in new stuff, new technologies, new languages and IT is taking precedence
    over almost any other industry all over the world.

    I'm not saying that re-training or 'recycling programmers' are bad ideas
    and I know that some day maybe I'll be less competitive and fast than young
    people to learn new things but what I'm trying to say is let's face it this
    is not gonna change, in fact, I think this gonna be 'worst' everytime.


    Miguel Angel

  2. #2
    Frustrated IT Worker Guest

    Re: IMHO


    Miguel,

    Are you referring to the URL I posted? If so, you need to understand that
    the article is pointing out what many people (including IT workers) don't
    know about the IT industry. For example, I constantly read articles with
    topics such as "we need to get more young people interested in computer science".
    The problem is that there are bunch of recent computer graduates who have
    even have earned a certification in Java programming from SUN, yet they still
    can't find an entry-level job after searching for months! If you don't believe
    me then just say so and I will post the URLs to a few Java forums and let
    you decide for yourself whether what I am telling is correct or not.

    I think that you may need to re-read the article since it has a lot to say
    about how much of the IT industry really works. Re-training experienced IT
    workers is only a small aspect of what that particular article was talking
    about.

    There are a lot of barriers and catch-22's in the IT industry. The bottom
    line is that the IT industry is still a young and very dysfunctional field.


    Btw, working in IT is much more than just knowing the latest and greatest
    technologies. If you require further clarification on something that the
    article discussed just ask a specific question and I am sure somebody here
    will answer your question in greater detail.


    "Miguel Angel Gonzalez" <miguelangelglz@hotmail.com> wrote:



  3. #3
    Elena Guest

    Re: IMHO


    "Miguel Angel Gonzalez" <miguelangelglz@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >>As far as I know even with all this disadvantages pointed here the IT industry

    is one of the most wanted professions that the americans like to do. Isn't
    that a little bit contradictory? I mean... in this and others forums is VERY
    common read messages from people stating that they DO want to make a shift
    in their careers to the IT industry, looking for entry positions or even
    students preparing themselves to make the best jump into the real world just
    after leaving the academia.<<

    Just because people WANT to get in doesn't mean they will. I cannot tell
    you how many posts I have read from people who have spent THOUSANDS of dollars
    on certifications or YEARS acquiring bachelor's degrees and have not been
    able to find a job even a year later. The article pointed out the hypocrisy
    of companies forever whining they can't get people when there are eager,
    willing people all around.


    I try not to discourage people when they say they want to get into IT because,
    of course, some people do get in thru luck or perseverance. But a lot of
    the people diligently acquiring certifications now will never get into the
    IT field or will not progress past the help desk.



  4. #4
    David K. Guest

    Re: IMHO


    Miguel:

    "Miguel Angel Gonzalez" <miguelangelglz@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >I felt a little bit confused abt what this article claims. As far as I know
    >even with all this disadvantages pointed here the IT industry is one of

    the
    >most wanted professions that the americans like to do.


    Well, I don't know about that! When they make a successful prime-time T.V.
    drama about programmers, then we can talk! I would say that doctors and
    lawyers are still the big "prestige" professions here in the U.S.

    Isn't that a little
    >bit contradictory? I mean... in this and others forums is VERY common read
    >messages from people stating that they DO want to make a shift in their

    careers
    >to the IT industry, looking for entry positions or even students preparing
    >themselves to make the best jump into the real world just after leaving

    the
    >academia.
    >


    Well, I think there is a big difference between what people's perception
    about the IT industry is, and what the reality is. If you believe the media,
    a job in IT is a sure ticket to wealth with all of the supposed ".com millionaires"
    and their pre-IPO stock options. Plus, with the much hyped shortage of workers,
    there are supposedly plenty of these "get rich quick" jobs just waiting for
    you out there. I think some people who want to get into the field only do
    so because of all this hype.

    >Despite all the terrible future that is waiting for us (kidding) I think
    >that one of the primary motivations to pursue a career in IT is precisely
    >the constant challenge and learning proccess that make us feel happy!, that
    >make us dont get bored and love our daily activity with enthusiasm and hope,
    >not with fear and doom.
    >
    >Even more, a lot fo people is looking for a job in IT because the average
    >salaries are much better than in other industries, so, far from feel unfortunate
    >or pressed by the nature of this industry I think that we should feel happy
    >to be part of a constant move and innovation.
    >


    I don't like to discourage people from going into the field, but in my opinion,
    if you want to work in this field, or in any field, you have to "love your
    daily activity with enthusiasm and hope." I will go a step further and say
    that you not only have to love what you do, but you have to have an aptitude
    for it. Money is also a nice thing, but there are lots of ways in this world
    to make money. You shouldn't base your career choice on money alone. I
    love baseball, and I'd love to be able to make a living playing it, but the
    reality is that I am not good enough at it to make that possible.

    I think some people really underestimate the type of skill and aptitude it
    takes to be a software developer. It's just not something that everyone
    is going to be good at. It's just a fact of life.

    >I dont want to sound rude or agressive but, come on! this industry can wait
    >for the slow adopters either for the sedentary people, think about it, this
    >industry is what it is today precisely for people that are always thinking
    >in new stuff, new technologies, new languages and IT is taking precedence
    >over almost any other industry all over the world.
    >


    You don't sound rude. I agree with you to a certain extent. In IT (or in
    any field for that matter), you need to keep up with the latest developments.
    That's just common sense. However, I think some employers put too much
    emphasis on specific tools, rather than broad knowledge and experience.
    Take the mainframe programmer who wants to transition to client-server or
    web technolgies. Probably that mainframe progammer has X years of experience
    developing software for mission-critical production systems. That's great
    experience to have on any project. However, some people for some reason
    think that the X year veteran of the trenches is somebody LESS valuable than
    a newly-minted college graduate with a few classes in the latest language
    and exactly ZERO years of real-world seasoning. Personally, I think that's
    terribly insulting to the X year veteran, and it's idiotic from a business
    standpoint. If I were a CEO, and my H.R. V.P. told me that somehow somebody
    with ZERO years experience was a more valuable employee than an X year veteran,
    I'd ask them what they were smoking!

    >I'm not saying that re-training or 'recycling programmers' are bad ideas
    >and I know that some day maybe I'll be less competitive and fast than young
    >people to learn new things but what I'm trying to say is let's face it this
    >is not gonna change, in fact, I think this gonna be 'worst' everytime.
    >
    >
    >Miguel Angel


    Well, I think that the "smart" companies will realize that "recycling" programmers
    can make good business sense, and the "not-so-smart" companies will probably
    be out of business. So, just based upon pure capitalistic survival of the
    fittest, it will change.




  5. #5
    Klaus H. Probst Guest

    Re: IMHO


    > Just because people WANT to get in doesn't mean they will. I cannot tell
    > you how many posts I have read from people who have spent THOUSANDS of

    dollars
    > on certifications or YEARS acquiring bachelor's degrees and have not been
    > able to find a job even a year later. The article pointed out the

    hypocrisy
    > of companies forever whining they can't get people when there are eager,
    > willing people all around.


    Hate to break the news, but a CS degree, a doctorate and 57 certifications
    do not automagically turn you into a capable developer. All that means is
    you can read and write. Companies *today* I believe are strengthening their
    filters, so they are of course finding less people. That's because there's a
    shortage of capable, professional developers. Not a shortage of "IT
    personnel".

    Posts like this (and from a few other people in this forum) reflect the sad
    fact that so many people thought they could get a 75K+ salary straight out
    of school if they were able to spell "HTML". The reality --thank heavens--
    is very different. The media and IT industry both have a lot of blame in
    this. But now all those companies that hired "programmers" and "web
    designers" and "content managers" are getting rid of the fluff and keeping
    the quality, and rightly so. All this can only benefit you if you are in a
    position of strength in your career or chosen area of professional
    development. That is, if you know what you're doing.

    It's called "natural selection".

    ____________
    Klaus






  6. #6
    Elena Guest

    Re: IMHO


    You pretty much missed my point entirely. The other post by "David K" has
    already clarified the point. I'm not suggesting anyone who wants in should
    get in, and I have come across many highly intelligent people that just did
    not have the right "thought process" to do well in programming.

    However, the original post by Mr. Gonzalez indicated that there can't be
    anything wrong with the IT industry because so many people want to get in.
    (a non sequiter in my opinion.) He then goes on to characterize experienced
    programmers who are getting blocked in their careers as "slow adopters",
    "sedentary", "less competitive" and generally implied we're hypocrites for
    suggesting the current approach to hiring is ill-advised. I don't think
    he intended to be rude but, yes, I consider those comments insulting as he
    has NO IDEA what many of us have gone thru to try and get onto new projects
    and new technologies.


  7. #7
    David K. Guest

    Re: IMHO


    "Klaus H. Probst" <kprobst@vbbox.com> wrote:
    >Hate to break the news, but a CS degree, a doctorate and 57 certifications
    >do not automagically turn you into a capable developer. All that means is
    >you can read and write.


    Klaus,

    While I agree that those things don't "automagically" make you a good developer,
    they do mean that you CAN do more than read and write. To suggest otherwise
    is just plain crazy.

    Companies *today* I believe are strengthening their
    >filters, so they are of course finding less people. That's because there's

    a
    >shortage of capable, professional developers. Not a shortage of "IT
    >personnel".
    >


    I think you are missing the point. Posters aren't complaining that companies
    are strengthing their standards to weed out weak candidates. I don't have
    a problem with that. What I have a problem with is that these "standards"
    are also weeding out a lot of "capable, professional developers."

    >Posts like this (and from a few other people in this forum) reflect the

    sad
    >fact that so many people thought they could get a 75K+ salary straight out
    >of school if they were able to spell "HTML". The reality --thank heavens--
    >is very different. The media and IT industry both have a lot of blame in
    >this. But now all those companies that hired "programmers" and "web
    >designers" and "content managers" are getting rid of the fluff and keeping
    >the quality, and rightly so. All this can only benefit you if you are in

    a
    >position of strength in your career or chosen area of professional
    >development. That is, if you know what you're doing.
    >


    I think the problem that posters like myself, Elena, etc are complaining
    about is that the people doing the hiring in I.T. don't understand what it
    takes to be a "good" programmer. When you want to hire somebody, first you
    need to ask yourself what qualities does a candidate need to possess in order
    to succeed in this position and at this company. Once you have identified
    these qualities, you need to gear the selection process so you identify candidates
    who possess those qualities. It's really not rocket science.

    The reality is that the qualities that make one sucessful in software development
    are not the qualities that are being used to select candidates. Many times
    this results in what you just described. Companies hire somebody just because
    they have the letters "HTML" or "VB" or "XML" or <insert-the-technology-flavor-of-the-week-here>
    on their resume. Meanwhile, candidates who would make much better developers
    are passed over because they don't have the "magic letters" on their resume.
    That sort of hiring practice doesn't produce the best candidates.

    The thing which concerns me the most is the effect that this has on the software
    industry as a whole. Because employers reward work experience in specific
    tools, workers are encouraged to always try to apply the latest tools to
    problems, even if the tools aren't the best ones for the job, because they
    need the "work experience" on their resume. Workers are discouraged from
    maintaining working systems for fear of becoming obsolete supporting "legacy
    code". Workers are encouraged to "hop" from one job to another in order
    to keep their resumes current. Workers are discouraged from sticking with
    projects long term. All these things have an effect on business and the
    bottom line. It costs a lot of time and money to hire somebody and bring
    them up to speed on a project. It costs a lot of time and money to scrap
    working systems and replace them just because the developers want to keep
    their skills current. Unfortunately, it seems like this is exactly the atmosphere
    that employers are cultivating through their hiring "filters".

    >It's called "natural selection".
    >


    I agree. Companies which engage in "sub-optimal" hiring practices are probably
    the same ones that are closing their doors.



  8. #8
    Miguel Angel Gonzalez Guest

    Re: IMHO


    I think that all we have different ways to see or approaches abt this issue.
    Everything depends on the side of the coin you are. But I'd like to point
    some facts.

    195,000 H1B holders SHOULD not be blamed abt this problem with the IT industry
    in USA, i mean, assuming that all the H1B holders get a job in USA (what
    is not true or real), I DO NOT believe this gonna be take out the american
    programmers or IT pro's their positions as the article states.

    The solution (or part of it) IS NOT reducing the H1B quota as this article
    claims, personally I found a litte bit of racism underneath and fear to free
    competence. (Strange if you take in account that the author is married with
    an assian immigrant!)

    We must understand that this industry (IT), like many others, is here to
    DO BUSINESS AND MONEY, like it or not to us, so they're finding their ways
    to do it.

    This 'voracity' affects americans and H1B holders, SOME H1B holders can be
    considered 'victims' of low wages at the point of slavery... well it depends
    again on which side of the coin you are.

    Take in account that for MANY immigrants (specially from the third world)
    even a 'low' wage (30-40k?) could represent the opportunity of his/her life!!!
    think abt it, for them getting an H1B EVEN with that salaries is a win-win
    situation, isnt that the ideal in a business environment???. (Of course I
    know this affect more to the americans IT workers, but again, going against
    H1B will not eliminate the problem and I'm not for affecting nobody)

    For some of us (i should include myself) going to USA is kind of ... 'let
    me show my stuff, let me prove that I can do it, either same or better than
    an american or another H1B, and if I can have a better life doing what I
    know and like to do...what else can I ask for? This is another win-win situation.

    Protectionism is one of the most hated and attacked practices from USA to
    all over the world!, H1B program is a way that allow to compete, to encourage
    the IT workers to push their own limits. As I said previously this is IMHO,
    I'm not saying that I own the absolut truth (in case such thing exist, all
    we know that it doesnt anyway!)

    Now I DO KNOW that there are some companies that cheat H1B holders, US Government
    and corporations at same level. Paying less than they promises to the H1B,
    lying and showing false documentation to the INS and charging high rates
    to the customers. Well let's go for them!!! Maybe that can solve PART of
    the problem.

    OK, so we're, let's imagine that there's no cheaters, the IT industry find
    equally qualified workers outside USA and willing to do the job for a 'fair'
    (maybe low for the american standards) salary (american company wins-immigrant
    wins), so... what's this scenario? doesnt sound familiar? the offer-demand
    law! (not in strict sense! dont start attacking me with formal economic models
    and definitions, you all know what I'm trying to say here!)


    But now let me show another scenario, there are no H1B program, all the open
    IT positions are there to be taken just for the americans... do you think
    that's the paradise??? NO WAY!!! the problem is the SAME, all the companies
    will be looking for the hottest and MAYBE brilliant people outside, and the
    industry will be pushing faster and faster for more, let's face it, it won't
    stop, even without H1B holders, even with retraining, even with more intelligent
    HR managers or recruiters, IT won't stop, we cant do anything abt it, these
    are the rules of this game called evolution, no matters how much we complain,
    no matters how many H1B holders exist.

    All the games have rules and you have just 2 options, play or no play, what
    side do you want to be?


    Finally, I share your worries abt how the IT industry work, abt its voracity,
    etc. What irritate me more in the article was pointing H1B program and unrealistic
    proposals abt how to solve the problem, and as I said in my previous post,
    certainly in some point of my life I'll have to resign like everybody but
    meanwhile I'd like to keep fighting, competing and contributing instead of
    blaming and complaining about the way this industry works. AND REMEMBER,
    THIS IS JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION, I'm not trying to convince or align anyone
    with me, I'm just expressing my perspective abt this issue and sharing with
    all of you.


    "I dont argue to convince, but I argue 'cause I'm convinced"


    PS

    I must apologise for my not-so-good written english, I've used the 'you'
    in a generic form, is not personal Frustrated IT Worker, is just that I'm
    not so fluent writting in impersonal form (if that exist in english, forgive
    my ignorance in this and many others gramatic topics).

  9. #9
    Elena Guest

    Re: IMHO


    Very nicely said, David. I sometimes think these people won't be able to
    really understand this phenomenon until they themselves get shoved aside
    in the same fashion. Or maybe the industry will mend its ways and they won't
    have to deal with it.

    The good news is that it's not IMPOSSIBLE for the experienced programmer
    to stay current, it's just a lot harder. And yes, I have concluded that job-hopping
    is the only way and I won't stick around and help a company with their ongoing
    system maintenance for just the reasons you cited. I'm back in consulting
    now (for a consulting firm that doesn't insist I remain at a client if new
    opportunities are absent) and I don't really see myself going back to a permanent-hire
    situation. It seems to be career-suicidal.

  10. #10
    Frustrated IT Worker Guest

    Re: IMHO


    Uh, Miguel I suppose you could interpret parts of what Matloff's article has
    to say as anti H-1B. However, that was not the reason this person wrote that
    article and it wasn't the reason I posted it! If you want, I can supply you
    with several links that are very anti H-1B.

    Your message is quite long and I don't have the time right now to provide
    you with a proper response that I think you deserve (maybe this weekend?).
    Even so, from the little bit that I have read so far, it appears that you
    are unfamiliar with how the H-1B program is suppose to work. Miguel, most
    Americans have nothing against foreign workers, if I gave you that impression
    of myself than I wish to say that was not my intention. My concern is what
    is happening to the IT industry in general. I made IT my chosen field and
    I don't want to see what happened to the steel industry (and several other
    US industries) happen to this one.

    I just read an article over at Software Developer titled "A Software Superpower?"
    http://www.sdmagazine.com/articles/2...103o/0103o.htm

    Basically, I agree with the author's premise that India has a good chance
    to be the next software superpower. The India government with all its problems
    is doing some things right and it seems that India is poised to be a big
    player (not just a supplier of labor) in the software market.

    "Miguel Angel Gonzalez" <miguelangelglz@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >I think that all we have different ways to see or approaches abt this issue.
    >Everything depends on the side of the coin you are. But I'd like to point
    >some facts.
    >
    >195,000 H1B holders SHOULD not be blamed abt this problem with the IT industry
    >in USA, i mean, assuming that all the H1B holders get a job in USA (what
    >is not true or real), I DO NOT believe this gonna be take out the american
    >programmers or IT pro's their positions as the article states.
    >
    >The solution (or part of it) IS NOT reducing the H1B quota as this article
    >claims, personally I found a litte bit of racism underneath and fear to

    free
    >competence. (Strange if you take in account that the author is married with
    >an assian immigrant!)
    >
    >We must understand that this industry (IT), like many others, is here to
    >DO BUSINESS AND MONEY, like it or not to us, so they're finding their ways
    >to do it.
    >
    >This 'voracity' affects americans and H1B holders, SOME H1B holders can

    be
    >considered 'victims' of low wages at the point of slavery... well it depends
    >again on which side of the coin you are.
    >
    >Take in account that for MANY immigrants (specially from the third world)
    >even a 'low' wage (30-40k?) could represent the opportunity of his/her life!!!
    >think abt it, for them getting an H1B EVEN with that salaries is a win-win
    >situation, isnt that the ideal in a business environment???. (Of course

    I
    >know this affect more to the americans IT workers, but again, going against
    >H1B will not eliminate the problem and I'm not for affecting nobody)
    >
    >For some of us (i should include myself) going to USA is kind of ... 'let
    >me show my stuff, let me prove that I can do it, either same or better than
    >an american or another H1B, and if I can have a better life doing what I
    >know and like to do...what else can I ask for? This is another win-win situation.
    >
    >Protectionism is one of the most hated and attacked practices from USA to
    >all over the world!, H1B program is a way that allow to compete, to encourage
    >the IT workers to push their own limits. As I said previously this is IMHO,
    >I'm not saying that I own the absolut truth (in case such thing exist, all
    >we know that it doesnt anyway!)
    >
    >Now I DO KNOW that there are some companies that cheat H1B holders, US Government
    >and corporations at same level. Paying less than they promises to the H1B,
    >lying and showing false documentation to the INS and charging high rates
    >to the customers. Well let's go for them!!! Maybe that can solve PART of
    >the problem.
    >
    >OK, so we're, let's imagine that there's no cheaters, the IT industry find
    >equally qualified workers outside USA and willing to do the job for a 'fair'
    >(maybe low for the american standards) salary (american company wins-immigrant
    >wins), so... what's this scenario? doesnt sound familiar? the offer-demand
    >law! (not in strict sense! dont start attacking me with formal economic

    models
    >and definitions, you all know what I'm trying to say here!)
    >
    >
    >But now let me show another scenario, there are no H1B program, all the

    open
    >IT positions are there to be taken just for the americans... do you think
    >that's the paradise??? NO WAY!!! the problem is the SAME, all the companies
    >will be looking for the hottest and MAYBE brilliant people outside, and

    the
    >industry will be pushing faster and faster for more, let's face it, it won't
    >stop, even without H1B holders, even with retraining, even with more intelligent
    >HR managers or recruiters, IT won't stop, we cant do anything abt it, these
    >are the rules of this game called evolution, no matters how much we complain,
    >no matters how many H1B holders exist.
    >
    >All the games have rules and you have just 2 options, play or no play, what
    >side do you want to be?
    >
    >
    >Finally, I share your worries abt how the IT industry work, abt its voracity,
    >etc. What irritate me more in the article was pointing H1B program and unrealistic
    >proposals abt how to solve the problem, and as I said in my previous post,
    >certainly in some point of my life I'll have to resign like everybody but
    >meanwhile I'd like to keep fighting, competing and contributing instead

    of
    >blaming and complaining about the way this industry works. AND REMEMBER,
    >THIS IS JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION, I'm not trying to convince or align anyone
    >with me, I'm just expressing my perspective abt this issue and sharing with
    >all of you.
    >
    >
    >"I dont argue to convince, but I argue 'cause I'm convinced"
    >
    >
    >PS
    >
    >I must apologise for my not-so-good written english, I've used the 'you'
    >in a generic form, is not personal Frustrated IT Worker, is just that I'm
    >not so fluent writting in impersonal form (if that exist in english, forgive
    >my ignorance in this and many others gramatic topics).



  11. #11
    Miguel Angel Gonzalez Guest

    Re: IMHO


    "Frustrated IT Worker" <frustrated@nospam.com> wrote:
    >
    >Uh, Miguel I suppose you could interpret parts of what Matloff's article

    has
    >to say as anti H-1B. However, that was not the reason this person wrote

    that
    >article and it wasn't the reason I posted it! If you want, I can supply

    you
    >with several links that are very anti H-1B.



    I DONT 'could interpret' that way, the article says textually things like...


    "The solution which I believe would be best for society, the economy and
    the industry itself would be:

    The yearly quota for the H-1B program should be drastically reduced, say
    to 15,000 per year. It should be geared mainly to hiring ``the best and the
    brightest,'' as was the case for the original H-1 program which preceded
    H-1B. Standards should be high, similar in stringency to those currently
    in place for the EB-1 National Interest Waiver (NIW) greencard program, which
    provides those of truly outstanding talents a fast track to permanent residency
    which does not depend on sponsorship by an employer. (NIW standards are high;
    mere possession of a graduate degree or publication of jointly-authored research
    papers is not treated as sufficient evidence of outstanding talent.)"

    (taken from the article http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.r...ml#tth_sEc11.1)


    BTW I'm not questioning you, I'm talking abt what the articles says! or have
    u ever seen that I attack you or complain abt you? or the reasons you had
    to post this? no, right?

    I dont need those links and I dont know from where you might be thinking
    that I'm interested in such annoying links anyway.


    >Even so, from the little bit that I have read so far, it appears that you
    >are unfamiliar with how the H-1B program is suppose to work. Miguel, most


    I perfectly know that H1B visa program was originated with some fair and
    good principles that lately are not respected anymore, and I know that H1B
    program could be improved to benefit immigrants and industry by the same,
    but I think that 'solutions' like the quoted before are not well intentioned
    at all, it denotes kind of racism and protectionism. And I'm against such
    things.


    And as I've stated previously I think that ALL we share the same worries
    abt how this industry works, what I'm trying to say over and over is that
    this article, and its 'solutions' and conclusions are VERY VERY unrealistic.

    I'm not ignoring the problem I'm saying that we MUST or SHOULD adapt if we
    want to continue on this, like it or not, and I'm not a defensor of how IT
    works or its voracity I'm just for a change in the way we see these 'problems'
    (I insist that it's the IT industry's nature) 'cause I dont think they(problems)
    will disappear never, instead of, we can adapt our vision of it and align
    with it, be players not spectators or complainers.

  12. #12
    David K. Guest

    Re: IMHO


    Miguel:

    First, don't worry about your English! You're written English is A LOT better
    than my Spanish (I assume, from your name that your native language is Spanish.
    I apologize I'm wrong).

    I have a different view of the article. I don't think the author is trying
    to blame the H1-B visa program for anything, like you suggest. I think the
    author is making two points:

    1. The "shortage" of programmers isn't as bad as employers believe it is.
    The problem is that the hiring practices that companies use is flawed.

    2. The "solution" that has been put forward to fix the "problem", the H1-B
    visa program, has flaws in it.

    In other posts in this thread, I've addressed my feelings about 1. so I won't
    repeat them again.

    As far as 2. goes, I think the H1-B program, at the very least, needs to
    be overhauled. Let me just say that I don't have a problem with letting
    people immigrate to this country. After all, myself and 99.9% of Americans
    are descendants of immigrants. However, the H1-B program isn't about immigration.
    It's about bringing workers into this country for a temporary period of
    time, working them at below market wages, and then sending them back to their
    home country when their visa expires.

    You made the point that the sub-market wage that many visa workers receive
    is still a lot higher than what they would make in their home country. That
    may be true, but it doesn't make it right. If I'm working for a company
    making X, and the person sitting in the cubicle next to me is making 2X for
    doing the same job, I'm not going to say, "That's okay. Even though I'm
    not getting paid fairly, I'm still better off." I'm going to want to get
    paid the fair wage that other people in my position are getting. The word
    "exploitation" comes to mind.

    Another problem with the H1-B program is that visa workers can't easily move
    to a new job. It can take weeks or months to find a new visa sponsor and
    get the visa transferred. In the meantime, the worker must accept whatever
    work and whatever rate the employer wants to pay.

    A third problem is that the H1-B visa is a temporary visa. After X number
    of years (I can't remember the exact time period - 4 or 6 years?), the worker
    must return to their home country if they haven't gotten a "green card".
    And getting a green card isn't a guarantee. Even though the number H1-B
    visas are increasing, the number of green cards isn't increasing proportionately.
    The program has nothing to do with the "high-minded" idea that we, as a
    nation of immigrants, should allow people to come to our country. If we
    really wanted to be idealistic about it, we'd give these people permanent
    residency. Instead, we use them for their skills for a few years, send them
    back, and bring in a new crop of workers.

    A fourth problem is that the rules of the program aren't being enforced.
    The law sets down certain rules in the program to prevent companies from
    exploiting visa workers, and to protect domestic workers. Companies have
    to demonstrate that there is no American worker who can do the job. Then,
    if they hire a visa worker, they need to pay them the market wage. Neither
    one of these rules is being enforced very well. It's crazy for a country
    to pass laws if they can't set aside the resources to enforce them.

    Next, I wanted to address your point about that wanting to reform the program
    is somehow "racist" or "protectionist". It may be a language or cultural
    differenct, but the word "racist" is so overused in this country to the point
    that the word has almost lost its meaning. It's a shame because there is
    still a lot of "real" racism that goes on; however, because people use the
    word so indiscriminantly, it's hard to know what's real and what's not.


    As far as "protectionist" goes, while I don't want to go so far as to shut
    down all of America's borders, from a practical standpoint, America just
    can't open its borders up to everybody who shows up on our shores. We need
    to have some practical limits on the number of visas we give out. Many parts
    of the United States are struggling with providing the infrastructure to
    our growing population. Where I live now, questions of growth and development
    are very hot, political topics.

    Lastly, you say something to the effect that this is the way the I.T . industry
    is, so you either have to "play" or "not play". I prefer a third option.
    I will "play" but while I'm playing I'm going to try to change some of the
    rules so that the game is better for everyone, both for U.S. citizens and
    for foreign guest workers.



  13. #13
    Klaus H. Probst Guest

    Re: IMHO


    David,

    > "Klaus H. Probst" <kprobst@vbbox.com> wrote:
    > >Hate to break the news, but a CS degree, a doctorate and 57

    certifications
    > >do not automagically turn you into a capable developer. All that means is
    > >you can read and write.

    >
    > Klaus,
    >
    > While I agree that those things don't "automagically" make you a good

    developer,
    > they do mean that you CAN do more than read and write. To suggest

    otherwise
    > is just plain crazy.


    I'm sorry David, it does. You are nothing but a guy in a suit with a bunch
    of papers until I sit down and try to gauge how good a developer you are.
    Period.

    > Companies *today* I believe are strengthening their
    > >filters, so they are of course finding less people. That's because

    there's
    > a
    > >shortage of capable, professional developers. Not a shortage of "IT
    > >personnel".
    > >

    >
    > I think you are missing the point. Posters aren't complaining that

    companies
    > are strengthing their standards to weed out weak candidates. I don't have
    > a problem with that. What I have a problem with is that these "standards"
    > are also weeding out a lot of "capable, professional developers."


    Not in my experience, no. But I can't speak for the whole of the IT
    industry, for sure.

    > >Posts like this (and from a few other people in this forum) reflect the

    > sad
    > >fact that so many people thought they could get a 75K+ salary straight

    out
    > >of school if they were able to spell "HTML". The reality --thank

    heavens--
    > >is very different. The media and IT industry both have a lot of blame in
    > >this. But now all those companies that hired "programmers" and "web
    > >designers" and "content managers" are getting rid of the fluff and

    keeping
    > >the quality, and rightly so. All this can only benefit you if you are in

    > a
    > >position of strength in your career or chosen area of professional
    > >development. That is, if you know what you're doing.
    > >

    >
    > I think the problem that posters like myself, Elena, etc are complaining
    > about is that the people doing the hiring in I.T. don't understand what it
    > takes to be a "good" programmer. When you want to hire somebody, first

    you
    > need to ask yourself what qualities does a candidate need to possess in

    order
    > to succeed in this position and at this company. Once you have identified
    > these qualities, you need to gear the selection process so you identify

    candidates
    > who possess those qualities. It's really not rocket science.


    You'd be surprised how many organizations botch this process. You can take a
    measure of how good a company is by simply going through the hiring process.
    You are right that it's not rocket science, but that doesn't mean it can't
    be done badly.

    Now if this was the original point then I agree =)

    > The reality is that the qualities that make one sucessful in software

    development
    > are not the qualities that are being used to select candidates. Many

    times
    > this results in what you just described. Companies hire somebody just

    because
    > they have the letters "HTML" or "VB" or "XML" or

    <insert-the-technology-flavor-of-the-week-here>
    > on their resume. Meanwhile, candidates who would make much better

    developers
    > are passed over because they don't have the "magic letters" on their

    resume.
    > That sort of hiring practice doesn't produce the best candidates.


    Of course it doesn't. But then again, that's where a good filter system
    comes in. But it depends on how the the company manages the process, hands
    down. All of them are different.

    > The thing which concerns me the most is the effect that this has on the

    software
    > industry as a whole. Because employers reward work experience in specific
    > tools, workers are encouraged to always try to apply the latest tools to
    > problems, even if the tools aren't the best ones for the job, because they
    > need the "work experience" on their resume. Workers are discouraged from
    > maintaining working systems for fear of becoming obsolete supporting

    "legacy
    > code". Workers are encouraged to "hop" from one job to another in order
    > to keep their resumes current. Workers are discouraged from sticking with
    > projects long term.


    Again, it comes down to the company. A good shop will simply fight to keep
    you and give you the chance (or at least try like ****) to move in whatever
    different directions you want to go. It doesn't always work, but it's always
    good to work for someone who understands this necessity. Also, it depends a
    lot of the environment you work in. For corporate IT shops, you're usually
    tied to whatever the last MIS manager decided was going to be the wave of
    the future (wrong or right). There's not a lot of variety and it can get
    boring after a while. Consulting firms fare better in this regard because
    they can arrange for you to spend six months on one project using one set of
    technologies and another six months in another. Of course, not all of them
    do that, but it's far easier than the corporate IT departments.

    > All these things have an effect on business and the
    > bottom line. It costs a lot of time and money to hire somebody and bring
    > them up to speed on a project. It costs a lot of time and money to scrap
    > working systems and replace them just because the developers want to keep
    > their skills current. Unfortunately, it seems like this is exactly the

    atmosphere
    > that employers are cultivating through their hiring "filters".


    Companies *know* that it takes a lot of money to hire, train and maintain
    someone on the job. They're not stupid in that regard. But they are stupid
    when they have a high attrition rate and they blame it on some vague factor,
    like "the state of the industry" or some such. So they keep going through
    the motions until they find enough people that are willing to take <insert
    crappy situation here, like low salary or whatever> and keep going, or they
    simply manage to cross train enough of their mainframe programmers in VB to
    sorta kinda make a difference. Needless to say, there's not a lot of quality
    there. So they have crappy systems. So in the end they have to bring in a
    consulting firm to straighten things up. And then they realize how much it's
    costing them (stupidly of course) to have the consultants, so they get rid
    of them cold turkey (well some do). Then it's back to the merry go round
    again. I've seen large companies repeat this over and over and over. It's
    sad.


    > >It's called "natural selection".
    > >

    >
    > I agree. Companies which engage in "sub-optimal" hiring practices are

    probably
    > the same ones that are closing their doors.


    So true :-)


    ____________
    Klaus







  14. #14
    David K. Guest

    Re: IMHO


    Klaus:

    I think we basically agree that companies need to have smarter filters in
    order to get the best candidates. It's unfortunate that sometimes these
    bad filters also weed out good candidates.



  15. #15
    Dee Guest

    Re: IMHO


    "Frustrated IT Worker" <frustrated@nospam.com> wrote:
    >
    >Miguel,
    >
    >Are you referring to the URL I posted? If so, you need to understand that
    >the article is pointing out what many people (including IT workers) don't
    >know about the IT industry. For example, I constantly read articles with
    >topics such as "we need to get more young people interested in computer

    science".
    >The problem is that there are bunch of recent computer graduates who have
    >even have earned a certification in Java programming from SUN, yet they

    still
    >can't find an entry-level job after searching for months! If you don't believe
    >me then just say so and I will post the URLs to a few Java forums and let
    >you decide for yourself whether what I am telling is correct or not.
    >
    >I think that you may need to re-read the article since it has a lot to say
    >about how much of the IT industry really works. Re-training experienced

    IT
    >workers is only a small aspect of what that particular article was talking
    >about.
    >
    >There are a lot of barriers and catch-22's in the IT industry. The bottom
    >line is that the IT industry is still a young and very dysfunctional field.
    >
    >
    >Btw, working in IT is much more than just knowing the latest and greatest
    >technologies. If you require further clarification on something that the
    >article discussed just ask a specific question and I am sure somebody here
    >will answer your question in greater detail.
    >
    >
    >"Miguel Angel Gonzalez" <miguelangelglz@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >

    I recently graduated with a BSCS and was offered 48k. If there is not a shortage
    of programmers, then why are fortune 500 companies offering high salaries
    for people with no experience.

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