talking about management and money

[nickname]

Hi all,

First of all, special thanks to Elena, Matthew Cromer and David K for their
enlighting comments on how IT industry works, and career management issues.

I recently found some documents about project pricings in my current company
intranet and some questions just came up to my head:

- How does a manager, or whoever makes the decision, know how much to ask
for a specific project based on dedicated resourcers (consultants) and applied
technology complexity (is not the same to set up a simple Web than integrating
existing apps with CORBA tech) ? Is there any table anywhere with "standard
pricings list" ???

where is the pricing info ? for example, I found some surveys with Java programmers
salaries compared to other programmers etc. but for some countries, is not
that easy to find such surveys.

- How does a manager estimate the workload and time to spend on a specific
project when lots of times there's no experience with such kind of projects
???

THANKS ALL !!!
- nickname
PD:I apologize for my English.

[Elena]

Howdy! If you don't mind, I'll re-arrange the order of your questions . .

[David K.]

"nickname" <noemail@no.com> wrote:
>- How does a manager, or whoever makes the decision, know how much to ask
>for a specific project based on dedicated resourcers (consultants) and applied
>technology complexity (is not the same to set up a simple Web than integrating
>existing apps with CORBA tech) ? Is there any table anywhere with "standard
>pricings list" ???
>

Although I'm not personally involved in consulting, my impression is that
most consultants charge by the hour. Each consultant has an hourly billable
rate. For every hour that a consultant works on a contract, the consulting
company charges the client that rate. Thus, if a a programmer works 50 hours
on a contract, the client is charged the hourly rate times 50.

>where is the pricing info ? for example, I found some surveys with Java
programmers
>salaries compared to other programmers etc. but for some countries, is not
>that easy to find such surveys.
>

I don't think that there is a "standard" pricing table or anything like that.
I would imagine that most companies set their rates based upon how much
they must pay the consultants, plus something extra for overhead costs, with
adjustments for current market conditions.

>- How does a manager estimate the workload and time to spend on a specific
>project when lots of times there's no experience with such kind of projects
>???

People have written entire books on project scheduling, and it still seems
more like an art than a science. First, you need to formulate a list of
specifications and requirements (not an easy task!). Then, you need to figure
out all of the tasks that need to be done in order to satisfy the requirements.
Next, divide each task into smaller, more manageable subtasks. Keep sub-dividing
until you have reached the lowest level of granularity. Then, for each of
these lowest level subtasks, estimate how long it will take to complete.
You should be able to estimate the subtasks more easily than estimating
the project as a whole. Finally, add up all of these estimates to get a
total estimate.

Obviously, this is just a very rough outline. There are other details which
you need to be aware of, like dependencies between subtasks, changing requirements,
etc. However, this is the basic idea. The book _Rapid Development_ by Steve
McConnell has a pretty good discussion of project scheduling, including a
nice bibliography.

Good luck!

[nickname]

"David K." <davidk@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>"nickname" <noemail@no.com> wrote:
>>- How does a manager, or whoever makes the decision, know how much to ask
>>for a specific project based on dedicated resourcers (consultants) and
applied
>>technology complexity (is not the same to set up a simple Web than integrating
>>existing apps with CORBA tech) ? Is there any table anywhere with "standard
>>pricings list" ???
>>
>
>Although I'm not personally involved in consulting, my impression is that
>most consultants charge by the hour. Each consultant has an hourly billable
>rate. For every hour that a consultant works on a contract, the consulting
>company charges the client that rate. Thus, if a a programmer works 50
hours
>on a contract, the client is charged the hourly rate times 50.
>

u r right. Consultants are charged by hour. What I would like to know is
where I could get info about current ratings, or how much the clients are
charged by hour depending on the country, technology the consultant works
on and consultant experience (junior, senior etc.). The different rates,
if available. Somehow a manager has to know these rates. The only way seems
to be, to actually ask for prices to existing competitors. But they'd give
u that info only if u were asking for it as a client, for a specific project.
I'd like to get that info as a developer, to know how to negotiate my future
salaries


>>where is the pricing info ? for example, I found some surveys with Java
>programmers
>>salaries compared to other programmers etc. but for some countries, is
not
>>that easy to find such surveys.
>>
>
>I don't think that there is a "standard" pricing table or anything like
that.
> I would imagine that most companies set their rates based upon how much
>they must pay the consultants, plus something extra for overhead costs,
with
>adjustments for current market conditions.
>

That "...based upon HOW MUCH they pay..." is what I'm interested in

>>- How does a manager estimate the workload and time to spend on a specific
>>project when lots of times there's no experience with such kind of projects
>>???
>
>People have written entire books on project scheduling, and it still seems
>more like an art than a science. First, you need to formulate a list of
>specifications and requirements (not an easy task!). Then, you need to
figure
>out all of the tasks that need to be done in order to satisfy the requirements.
> Next, divide each task into smaller, more manageable subtasks. Keep sub-dividing
>until you have reached the lowest level of granularity. Then, for each
of
>these lowest level subtasks, estimate how long it will take to complete.
> You should be able to estimate the subtasks more easily than estimating
>the project as a whole. Finally, add up all of these estimates to get a
>total estimate.
>

I don't think everyday work is done that way. I mean, it should be done that
way but as you know this industry estimates always has been...pathetic. In
my opinion, simply, because MOST of the people who estimate, base their decision
upon money and revenues. As the competitors do. It seems REALLY hard to find
a company where things are done as they should.

>Obviously, this is just a very rough outline. There are other details which
>you need to be aware of, like dependencies between subtasks, changing requirements,
>etc. However, this is the basic idea. The book _Rapid Development_ by
Steve
>McConnell has a pretty good discussion of project scheduling, including
a
>nice bibliography.
>

Thanks for the reference

>Good luck!
>

[David K.]

"nickname" <noemail@no.com> wrote:
>

>u r right. Consultants are charged by hour. What I would like to know is
>where I could get info about current ratings, or how much the clients are
>charged by hour depending on the country, technology the consultant works
>on and consultant experience (junior, senior etc.). The different rates,
>if available. Somehow a manager has to know these rates. The only way seems
>to be, to actually ask for prices to existing competitors. But they'd give
>u that info only if u were asking for it as a client, for a specific project.
>I'd like to get that info as a developer, to know how to negotiate my future
>salaries
>

I can't help you there. Maybe if you search the web something will come
up.


>I don't think everyday work is done that way. I mean, it should be done
that
>way but as you know this industry estimates always has been...pathetic.
In
>my opinion, simply, because MOST of the people who estimate, base their
decision
>upon money and revenues. As the competitors do. It seems REALLY hard to
find
>a company where things are done as they should.
>

There is a lot of truth to what you say. I've worked on projects that whose
schedules are based on nothing more than "wishful thinking", and I've worked
on projects where schedules are set based upon a realistic estimation of
the required work. Not surprisingly, the former projects usually failed,
while the latter ones usually succeeded. Now that I'm a little older and
wiser, I try to steer clear of the "we need this done in 3 months because
I said so" managers!

[Steve]

Now that I'm a little older and
>wiser, I try to steer clear of the "we need this done in 3 months because
>I said so" managers!
>

You mean the ones with pointy hair

[David K.]

"Steve" <SBracks@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Now that I'm a little older and
>>wiser, I try to steer clear of the "we need this done in 3 months because
>>I said so" managers!
>>
>
>You mean the ones with pointy hair
>

Exactly :-)