talking about management and money


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Thread: talking about management and money

  1. #1
    nickname Guest

    talking about management and money



    Hi all,

    First of all, special thanks to Elena, Matthew Cromer and David K for their
    enlighting comments on how IT industry works, and career management issues.

    I recently found some documents about project pricings in my current company
    intranet and some questions just came up to my head:

    - How does a manager, or whoever makes the decision, know how much to ask
    for a specific project based on dedicated resourcers (consultants) and applied
    technology complexity (is not the same to set up a simple Web than integrating
    existing apps with CORBA tech) ? Is there any table anywhere with "standard
    pricings list" ???

    where is the pricing info ? for example, I found some surveys with Java programmers
    salaries compared to other programmers etc. but for some countries, is not
    that easy to find such surveys.

    - How does a manager estimate the workload and time to spend on a specific
    project when lots of times there's no experience with such kind of projects
    ???

    THANKS ALL !!!
    - nickname
    PD:I apologize for my English.

  2. #2
    Elena Guest

    Re: talking about management and money


    Howdy! If you don't mind, I'll re-arrange the order of your questions . .

  3. #3
    David K. Guest

    Re: talking about management and money


    "nickname" <noemail@no.com> wrote:
    >- How does a manager, or whoever makes the decision, know how much to ask
    >for a specific project based on dedicated resourcers (consultants) and applied
    >technology complexity (is not the same to set up a simple Web than integrating
    >existing apps with CORBA tech) ? Is there any table anywhere with "standard
    >pricings list" ???
    >


    Although I'm not personally involved in consulting, my impression is that
    most consultants charge by the hour. Each consultant has an hourly billable
    rate. For every hour that a consultant works on a contract, the consulting
    company charges the client that rate. Thus, if a a programmer works 50 hours
    on a contract, the client is charged the hourly rate times 50.

    >where is the pricing info ? for example, I found some surveys with Java

    programmers
    >salaries compared to other programmers etc. but for some countries, is not
    >that easy to find such surveys.
    >


    I don't think that there is a "standard" pricing table or anything like that.
    I would imagine that most companies set their rates based upon how much
    they must pay the consultants, plus something extra for overhead costs, with
    adjustments for current market conditions.

    >- How does a manager estimate the workload and time to spend on a specific
    >project when lots of times there's no experience with such kind of projects
    >???


    People have written entire books on project scheduling, and it still seems
    more like an art than a science. First, you need to formulate a list of
    specifications and requirements (not an easy task!). Then, you need to figure
    out all of the tasks that need to be done in order to satisfy the requirements.
    Next, divide each task into smaller, more manageable subtasks. Keep sub-dividing
    until you have reached the lowest level of granularity. Then, for each of
    these lowest level subtasks, estimate how long it will take to complete.
    You should be able to estimate the subtasks more easily than estimating
    the project as a whole. Finally, add up all of these estimates to get a
    total estimate.

    Obviously, this is just a very rough outline. There are other details which
    you need to be aware of, like dependencies between subtasks, changing requirements,
    etc. However, this is the basic idea. The book _Rapid Development_ by Steve
    McConnell has a pretty good discussion of project scheduling, including a
    nice bibliography.

    Good luck!


  4. #4
    nickname Guest

    Re: talking about management and money


    "David K." <davidk@nospam.com> wrote:
    >
    >"nickname" <noemail@no.com> wrote:
    >>- How does a manager, or whoever makes the decision, know how much to ask
    >>for a specific project based on dedicated resourcers (consultants) and

    applied
    >>technology complexity (is not the same to set up a simple Web than integrating
    >>existing apps with CORBA tech) ? Is there any table anywhere with "standard
    >>pricings list" ???
    >>

    >
    >Although I'm not personally involved in consulting, my impression is that
    >most consultants charge by the hour. Each consultant has an hourly billable
    >rate. For every hour that a consultant works on a contract, the consulting
    >company charges the client that rate. Thus, if a a programmer works 50

    hours
    >on a contract, the client is charged the hourly rate times 50.
    >


    u r right. Consultants are charged by hour. What I would like to know is
    where I could get info about current ratings, or how much the clients are
    charged by hour depending on the country, technology the consultant works
    on and consultant experience (junior, senior etc.). The different rates,
    if available. Somehow a manager has to know these rates. The only way seems
    to be, to actually ask for prices to existing competitors. But they'd give
    u that info only if u were asking for it as a client, for a specific project.
    I'd like to get that info as a developer, to know how to negotiate my future
    salaries


    >>where is the pricing info ? for example, I found some surveys with Java

    >programmers
    >>salaries compared to other programmers etc. but for some countries, is

    not
    >>that easy to find such surveys.
    >>

    >
    >I don't think that there is a "standard" pricing table or anything like

    that.
    > I would imagine that most companies set their rates based upon how much
    >they must pay the consultants, plus something extra for overhead costs,

    with
    >adjustments for current market conditions.
    >


    That "...based upon HOW MUCH they pay..." is what I'm interested in

    >>- How does a manager estimate the workload and time to spend on a specific
    >>project when lots of times there's no experience with such kind of projects
    >>???

    >
    >People have written entire books on project scheduling, and it still seems
    >more like an art than a science. First, you need to formulate a list of
    >specifications and requirements (not an easy task!). Then, you need to

    figure
    >out all of the tasks that need to be done in order to satisfy the requirements.
    > Next, divide each task into smaller, more manageable subtasks. Keep sub-dividing
    >until you have reached the lowest level of granularity. Then, for each

    of
    >these lowest level subtasks, estimate how long it will take to complete.
    > You should be able to estimate the subtasks more easily than estimating
    >the project as a whole. Finally, add up all of these estimates to get a
    >total estimate.
    >


    I don't think everyday work is done that way. I mean, it should be done that
    way but as you know this industry estimates always has been...pathetic. In
    my opinion, simply, because MOST of the people who estimate, base their decision
    upon money and revenues. As the competitors do. It seems REALLY hard to find
    a company where things are done as they should.

    >Obviously, this is just a very rough outline. There are other details which
    >you need to be aware of, like dependencies between subtasks, changing requirements,
    >etc. However, this is the basic idea. The book _Rapid Development_ by

    Steve
    >McConnell has a pretty good discussion of project scheduling, including

    a
    >nice bibliography.
    >


    Thanks for the reference

    >Good luck!
    >




  5. #5
    David K. Guest

    Re: talking about management and money


    "nickname" <noemail@no.com> wrote:
    >


    >u r right. Consultants are charged by hour. What I would like to know is
    >where I could get info about current ratings, or how much the clients are
    >charged by hour depending on the country, technology the consultant works
    >on and consultant experience (junior, senior etc.). The different rates,
    >if available. Somehow a manager has to know these rates. The only way seems
    >to be, to actually ask for prices to existing competitors. But they'd give
    >u that info only if u were asking for it as a client, for a specific project.
    >I'd like to get that info as a developer, to know how to negotiate my future
    >salaries
    >


    I can't help you there. Maybe if you search the web something will come
    up.


    >I don't think everyday work is done that way. I mean, it should be done

    that
    >way but as you know this industry estimates always has been...pathetic.

    In
    >my opinion, simply, because MOST of the people who estimate, base their

    decision
    >upon money and revenues. As the competitors do. It seems REALLY hard to

    find
    >a company where things are done as they should.
    >


    There is a lot of truth to what you say. I've worked on projects that whose
    schedules are based on nothing more than "wishful thinking", and I've worked
    on projects where schedules are set based upon a realistic estimation of
    the required work. Not surprisingly, the former projects usually failed,
    while the latter ones usually succeeded. Now that I'm a little older and
    wiser, I try to steer clear of the "we need this done in 3 months because
    I said so" managers!


  6. #6
    Steve Guest

    Re: talking about management and money


    Now that I'm a little older and
    >wiser, I try to steer clear of the "we need this done in 3 months because
    >I said so" managers!
    >


    You mean the ones with pointy hair


  7. #7
    David K. Guest

    Re: talking about management and money


    "Steve" <SBracks@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >
    >Now that I'm a little older and
    >>wiser, I try to steer clear of the "we need this done in 3 months because
    >>I said so" managers!
    >>

    >
    >You mean the ones with pointy hair
    >


    Exactly :-)


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