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Thread: C# & .NET

  1. #16
    MarkN Guest

    Re: .Net


    "Elena" <egermano@comcast.net> wrote:
    >
    >"simon" <substring0NOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >>I still don't understand why people are so hung up on a programming tool?
    >>You shouldn't be if you are a true professional developer. IMHO, all
    >>programming tools are based on pretty much the same logics, and if you

    truly
    >>understand programming, the learning curve should not be steep.

    >
    >
    >I totally agree with you on this point but the job market does not. The
    >tool you work with translates directly to the job opportunities available
    >to you. I understand why some of the other posters complain that the MS/Java
    >discussion doesn't belong on a career board, but the way the hiring process
    >works - - you are defined by the programming tool you last worked with.


    >I've had very little luck convincing employers that "REAL" programmers are
    >not tied to tools. I could wave my Mensa membership card at them but I'm
    >sure it would have no effect. It's burned into their brains that people
    >come in technology flavors and to hire the wrong-flavored person would results
    >in months of non-productive wasted expense.
    >
    >Elena
    >


    I think we should discuss MS and Java here. Just not the technical merits
    or details(which ends up being mostly opinions and FUD).

    The problem with convincing managers is that out of the majority of those
    'programming' (use whatever term you desire) not that many of them really
    are 'REAL' programmers. Picking up a hammer and being able to nail boards
    together doesn't make one a carpenter. Doesn't not make one not a carpenter.
    And nailing boards together for 20 years doesn't change a thing. It seems
    management has lumped everyone together and taken the easy road. I have
    seen plenty of developers who are really good at one tool. But as soon as
    any change is introduced they turn into a puddle of mush. On the other hand
    there are those who can learn new tools, technologies and platforms at the
    drop of a hat.

    I think our industry has way too many people doing this job who shouldn't
    be. It is only because no one has died (that I know of) that we can get
    away with it. Try this in the medical field. How many companies have their
    own doctors? "Hey, my cousin Joe knows how to disect a frog. Let's not
    outsource our medical care. He can do it good enough."





  2. #17
    MarkN Guest

    Re: .Net


    >As with java, i do wonder how it *really* applies to
    >stand-alone, applications. not everything is a distributed multi-tier
    >solution.


    Java isn't just for this and originally wasn't.

    http://java.sun.com/docs/white/lange....doc1.html#943

    So don't use what you don't need. I design/develop with good OO principles.
    The the multi-tiered issue is a deployment issue and can be easily solved
    with tools like AspectJ.

  3. #18
    simon Guest

    Re: .Net

    Exactly. Companies should look at the developers as "master builders" who
    have great craftmanship skill, and can build anything using anything.
    Therefore, instead of asking how many years you program C++ or Java, or
    whatever languages, the hiring managers should ask what have you built?
    Have you been building little huts for the past 10 years or symphony halls
    and skyscrappers?

    I am fortunate that our boss, the VP of Research and Development, doesn't
    "label" us as C++ developers, or Java developers, or VB developers. We have
    a lot of leeway as of what tools to use to get the job done. And this is
    what it should be.

    Unfortunately, it is very difficult to change the mindset of the management.
    Well, maybe we have to move into management ourselves and start the
    revolution, haha.

    simon.


    "MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d2d887f$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > "Elena" <egermano@comcast.net> wrote:
    > >
    > >"simon" <substring0NOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > >>I still don't understand why people are so hung up on a programming

    tool?
    > >>You shouldn't be if you are a true professional developer. IMHO, all
    > >>programming tools are based on pretty much the same logics, and if you

    > truly
    > >>understand programming, the learning curve should not be steep.

    > >
    > >
    > >I totally agree with you on this point but the job market does not. The
    > >tool you work with translates directly to the job opportunities available
    > >to you. I understand why some of the other posters complain that the

    MS/Java
    > >discussion doesn't belong on a career board, but the way the hiring

    process
    > >works - - you are defined by the programming tool you last worked with.

    >
    > >I've had very little luck convincing employers that "REAL" programmers

    are
    > >not tied to tools. I could wave my Mensa membership card at them but I'm
    > >sure it would have no effect. It's burned into their brains that people
    > >come in technology flavors and to hire the wrong-flavored person would

    results
    > >in months of non-productive wasted expense.
    > >
    > >Elena
    > >

    >
    > I think we should discuss MS and Java here. Just not the technical merits
    > or details(which ends up being mostly opinions and FUD).
    >
    > The problem with convincing managers is that out of the majority of those
    > 'programming' (use whatever term you desire) not that many of them really
    > are 'REAL' programmers. Picking up a hammer and being able to nail boards
    > together doesn't make one a carpenter. Doesn't not make one not a

    carpenter.
    > And nailing boards together for 20 years doesn't change a thing. It

    seems
    > management has lumped everyone together and taken the easy road. I have
    > seen plenty of developers who are really good at one tool. But as soon as
    > any change is introduced they turn into a puddle of mush. On the other

    hand
    > there are those who can learn new tools, technologies and platforms at the
    > drop of a hat.
    >
    > I think our industry has way too many people doing this job who shouldn't
    > be. It is only because no one has died (that I know of) that we can get
    > away with it. Try this in the medical field. How many companies have

    their
    > own doctors? "Hey, my cousin Joe knows how to disect a frog. Let's not
    > outsource our medical care. He can do it good enough."
    >
    >
    >
    >




  4. #19
    MarkN Guest

    Re: .Net


    They should. Unfortunately there are so many that aren't, mangagement lumps
    us all together. There are those good few that don't.

    One reason I have my own company. But when one is treaded as a psuedo-employee
    (time and materials) the same thing happens.



    "simon" <substring0NOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >Exactly. Companies should look at the developers as "master builders" who
    >have great craftmanship skill, and can build anything using anything.
    >Therefore, instead of asking how many years you program C++ or Java, or
    >whatever languages, the hiring managers should ask what have you built?
    >Have you been building little huts for the past 10 years or symphony halls
    >and skyscrappers?
    >
    >I am fortunate that our boss, the VP of Research and Development, doesn't
    >"label" us as C++ developers, or Java developers, or VB developers. We

    have
    >a lot of leeway as of what tools to use to get the job done. And this is
    >what it should be.
    >
    >Unfortunately, it is very difficult to change the mindset of the management.
    >Well, maybe we have to move into management ourselves and start the
    >revolution, haha.
    >
    >simon.
    >
    >
    >"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d2d887f$1@10.1.10.29...
    >>
    >> "Elena" <egermano@comcast.net> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >"simon" <substring0NOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >> >>I still don't understand why people are so hung up on a programming

    >tool?
    >> >>You shouldn't be if you are a true professional developer. IMHO, all
    >> >>programming tools are based on pretty much the same logics, and if you

    >> truly
    >> >>understand programming, the learning curve should not be steep.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >I totally agree with you on this point but the job market does not.

    The
    >> >tool you work with translates directly to the job opportunities available
    >> >to you. I understand why some of the other posters complain that the

    >MS/Java
    >> >discussion doesn't belong on a career board, but the way the hiring

    >process
    >> >works - - you are defined by the programming tool you last worked with.

    >>
    >> >I've had very little luck convincing employers that "REAL" programmers

    >are
    >> >not tied to tools. I could wave my Mensa membership card at them but

    I'm
    >> >sure it would have no effect. It's burned into their brains that people
    >> >come in technology flavors and to hire the wrong-flavored person would

    >results
    >> >in months of non-productive wasted expense.
    >> >
    >> >Elena
    >> >

    >>
    >> I think we should discuss MS and Java here. Just not the technical merits
    >> or details(which ends up being mostly opinions and FUD).
    >>
    >> The problem with convincing managers is that out of the majority of those
    >> 'programming' (use whatever term you desire) not that many of them really
    >> are 'REAL' programmers. Picking up a hammer and being able to nail boards
    >> together doesn't make one a carpenter. Doesn't not make one not a

    >carpenter.
    >> And nailing boards together for 20 years doesn't change a thing. It

    >seems
    >> management has lumped everyone together and taken the easy road. I have
    >> seen plenty of developers who are really good at one tool. But as soon

    as
    >> any change is introduced they turn into a puddle of mush. On the other

    >hand
    >> there are those who can learn new tools, technologies and platforms at

    the
    >> drop of a hat.
    >>
    >> I think our industry has way too many people doing this job who shouldn't
    >> be. It is only because no one has died (that I know of) that we can get
    >> away with it. Try this in the medical field. How many companies have

    >their
    >> own doctors? "Hey, my cousin Joe knows how to disect a frog. Let's not
    >> outsource our medical care. He can do it good enough."
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>

    >
    >



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