Any ideas about smart career networking in IT?

[ML]

Hello everyone,

I've been told that the best way in any field to find a job is by
networking, or in other words, meeting IT decision makers by setting up
"informational interviews" and then have those people refer you to other
people.

However, from my experience in IT, instead of referrals to more decision
making people, I continually get referred to recruiters, which is what a
job candidate is trying to avoid in the process of career networking.

Some fanatical career networking advisers I know insist that it does'nt
matter what you know, but what you do need to show is passion for the
position that you are pursuing. However, the IT decision makers that
I've dealt with already assume that you are looking for a job, and that
the business of conducting "informational interviews" doesn't seem to
register with them. Is there some nuance or step that I'm missing in
the process? Or is my sneaking suspicion, that what you know in IT
really does count more than who you do know correct?

Do any of you have any luck penetrating small business using these kinds
of techniques?

I've had a few years of experience COBOL programming during Y2K and have
partially engineered a switch to Java. What I mean by partially is that
I've taken a class and have it working on a website I'm hosting at home
for a non-profit (www.ocachicago.org). However, I am looking for a
means to getting more meatier experience.

[Steve]

Don't be surprised with the response. IT people are more than happy to discuss
their needs, but aren't about to invest in keeping track of, or conducting
informal discussions using their company's time for other company's potential
needs. That *is* what recruiters are there for, so I certainly wouldn't avoid
them.

If you're looking for a Java development position and don't have very much
Java experience, expect this to take a while if the market remains sluggish.
Recruiters can be expensive for companies, and generally aren't used for
entry level positions. Your best bet is a lot of canvassing, and looking
at "foot in the door" style positions such as Testers for companies that
use Java. Indicate your interest & experience in development, and ask them
about whether migrating to development is an option at a later time.

What I'd recommend is using a short & sweet letter inquiring about possible
positions, indicating a brief skill-set & experience, and express your inquiry
based on your interest. I.e. "I'm currently focussing on developing a career
in Java development..." I probably wouldn't even include a resume. If they're
interested in considering you, or assisting you by passing info along, they'll
ask to see your resume.

Steve.


ML <mlo888@usa.net> wrote:
>Hello everyone,
>
>I've been told that the best way in any field to find a job is by
>networking, or in other words, meeting IT decision makers by setting up

>"informational interviews" and then have those people refer you to other

>people.
>
>However, from my experience in IT, instead of referrals to more decision

>making people, I continually get referred to recruiters, which is what a

>job candidate is trying to avoid in the process of career networking.
>
>Some fanatical career networking advisers I know insist that it does'nt

>matter what you know, but what you do need to show is passion for the
>position that you are pursuing. However, the IT decision makers that
>I've dealt with already assume that you are looking for a job, and that

>the business of conducting "informational interviews" doesn't seem to
>register with them. Is there some nuance or step that I'm missing in
>the process? Or is my sneaking suspicion, that what you know in IT
>really does count more than who you do know correct?
>
>Do any of you have any luck penetrating small business using these kinds

>of techniques?
>
>I've had a few years of experience COBOL programming during Y2K and have

>partially engineered a switch to Java. What I mean by partially is that

>I've taken a class and have it working on a website I'm hosting at home

>for a non-profit (www.ocachicago.org). However, I am looking for a
>means to getting more meatier experience.
>

[Elena]

The "informational interview" is an idea that was in vogue a few years back
but is basically worthless now. I'm not sure it ever yielded a lot of results
but it certainly sold books for whoever came up with the idea.

Basically, business people aren't keen on spending a lot of time on what
is often a thinly-disguised job pitch which is why you're getting referred
to recruiters. I'm not drawing any conclusions about you personally, I'm
just saying you're not the first one to try this idea.

In brief, if you want to network with business people, it needs to be in
what they perceive as a productive context - - not one where you are asking
for something but one where you are helping them reach their goals. I'm
thinking of things like various business professional groups, charity, or
chamber-of-commerce-type things. You offer to help plan the luncheon, be
secretary for the meetings, serve on a committee, whatever. It takes a lot
of sustained contact over time - - this won't happen over night and requires
a substantial investment in time. I personally don't know of any shortcuts.


Elena

[simon]

I don't know about the others, but in my "dictionary", "networking" <> "informational
interviews". Networking, IMHO, is to have/make friends in different companies/industries,
to attend professional meetings and special interest group/user meetings.

Most companies like to hire people referred by current employees than a total
stranger. Saving money (i.e. fees to recruiters which could be as high as
30% of your annual salary) is one factor. But more important is to have
someone who knows you well and knows that you can work with the team. These
"referers" DO NOT have to be the decision-makers. They just need to know
who to submit the referral and must have good relationship with the management,
of course.

DO NOT keep the recuiters out of your job-search equation. They should be
an important part. You just have to screen out the bad ones, and yes, there
are a lot of them out there.

Hate to tell you that, but legacy system experience do not count in job search
nowadays. It is wrong, but it is also reality (and that's another discussion).

Since your Java experience is very limited, it is very difficult to find
a job that can give you "meatier experience". They are going to demand more
from you.... things like J2EE and JavaBean.

As the other poster suggested, you might have to find a different job that
can ease you into the Java programming in the near future. It is tough and
there is no guarantee. Sometimes you just have to be at the right place
on the right time. But at this economic slowdown, nobody is hiring an entry-level
Java programmer.... there are too many out there.

Just hang in there, position yourself, wait for the economic turn-around,
and your luck might change.

Hope this helps.

simon.


ML <mlo888@usa.net> wrote:
>Hello everyone,
>
>I've been told that the best way in any field to find a job is by
>networking, or in other words, meeting IT decision makers by setting up

>"informational interviews" and then have those people refer you to other

>people.
>
>However, from my experience in IT, instead of referrals to more decision

>making people, I continually get referred to recruiters, which is what a

>job candidate is trying to avoid in the process of career networking.
>
>Some fanatical career networking advisers I know insist that it does'nt

>matter what you know, but what you do need to show is passion for the
>position that you are pursuing. However, the IT decision makers that
>I've dealt with already assume that you are looking for a job, and that

>the business of conducting "informational interviews" doesn't seem to
>register with them. Is there some nuance or step that I'm missing in
>the process? Or is my sneaking suspicion, that what you know in IT
>really does count more than who you do know correct?
>
>Do any of you have any luck penetrating small business using these kinds

>of techniques?
>
>I've had a few years of experience COBOL programming during Y2K and have

>partially engineered a switch to Java. What I mean by partially is that

>I've taken a class and have it working on a website I'm hosting at home

>for a non-profit (www.ocachicago.org). However, I am looking for a
>means to getting more meatier experience.
>

[MarkN]

ML,
Don't count out your Legacy skills just yet. There is a lot of COBOL (etc.)
code out there and many of those who know it are beginning to retire. This
is especially true in the Government sector. So going forward, these companies/organizations
will have choice: stay with what they have, convert or hook old systems to
new. Those with both old and news skills will have the best chance at these
jobs (you will find exceptions). Some companies (would like to say many)
are continuing to develop in legacy languages because their people know them,
they are 'easy to learn' and 'take less time to get into production'. I'm
not saying I agree with these things but perception is more important than
reality sometimes.

A question. What Java have you done on your website? Are you doing applets?
Servlets? The reason I ask is because way too many people confuse Java
with Javascript. They have some syntax and some concepts in common but they
really are different.

Mark

"simon" <substring0NOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I don't know about the others, but in my "dictionary", "networking" <> "informational
>interviews". Networking, IMHO, is to have/make friends in different companies/industries,
>to attend professional meetings and special interest group/user meetings.
>
>Most companies like to hire people referred by current employees than a
total
>stranger. Saving money (i.e. fees to recruiters which could be as high
as
>30% of your annual salary) is one factor. But more important is to have
>someone who knows you well and knows that you can work with the team. These
>"referers" DO NOT have to be the decision-makers. They just need to know
>who to submit the referral and must have good relationship with the management,
>of course.
>
>DO NOT keep the recuiters out of your job-search equation. They should
be
>an important part. You just have to screen out the bad ones, and yes, there
>are a lot of them out there.
>
>Hate to tell you that, but legacy system experience do not count in job
search
>nowadays. It is wrong, but it is also reality (and that's another discussion).
>
>Since your Java experience is very limited, it is very difficult to find
>a job that can give you "meatier experience". They are going to demand
more
>from you.... things like J2EE and JavaBean.
>
>As the other poster suggested, you might have to find a different job that
>can ease you into the Java programming in the near future. It is tough
and
>there is no guarantee. Sometimes you just have to be at the right place
>on the right time. But at this economic slowdown, nobody is hiring an entry-level
>Java programmer.... there are too many out there.
>
>Just hang in there, position yourself, wait for the economic turn-around,
>and your luck might change.
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>simon.
>
>
>ML <mlo888@usa.net> wrote:
>>Hello everyone,
>>
>>I've been told that the best way in any field to find a job is by
>>networking, or in other words, meeting IT decision makers by setting up
>
>>"informational interviews" and then have those people refer you to other
>
>>people.
>>
>>However, from my experience in IT, instead of referrals to more decision
>
>>making people, I continually get referred to recruiters, which is what
a
>
>>job candidate is trying to avoid in the process of career networking.
>>
>>Some fanatical career networking advisers I know insist that it does'nt
>
>>matter what you know, but what you do need to show is passion for the

>>position that you are pursuing. However, the IT decision makers that
>>I've dealt with already assume that you are looking for a job, and that
>
>>the business of conducting "informational interviews" doesn't seem to
>>register with them. Is there some nuance or step that I'm missing in
>>the process? Or is my sneaking suspicion, that what you know in IT
>>really does count more than who you do know correct?
>>
>>Do any of you have any luck penetrating small business using these kinds
>
>>of techniques?
>>
>>I've had a few years of experience COBOL programming during Y2K and have
>
>>partially engineered a switch to Java. What I mean by partially is that
>
>>I've taken a class and have it working on a website I'm hosting at home
>
>>for a non-profit (www.ocachicago.org). However, I am looking for a
>>means to getting more meatier experience.
>>
>

[ML]

MarkN wrote:
> ML,
> Don't count out your Legacy skills just yet. There is a lot of COBOL (etc.)
> code out there and many of those who know it are beginning to retire. This
> is especially true in the Government sector. So going forward, these companies/organizations
> will have choice: stay with what they have, convert or hook old systems to
> new. Those with both old and news skills will have the best chance at these
> jobs (you will find exceptions). Some companies (would like to say many)
> are continuing to develop in legacy languages because their people know them,
> they are 'easy to learn' and 'take less time to get into production'. I'm
> not saying I agree with these things but perception is more important than
> reality sometimes.
>
> A question. What Java have you done on your website? Are you doing applets?
> Servlets? The reason I ask is because way too many people confuse Java
> with Javascript. They have some syntax and some concepts in common but they
> really are different.
>
> Mark
>
> "simon" <substring0NOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I don't know about the others, but in my "dictionary", "networking" <> "informational
>>interviews". Networking, IMHO, is to have/make friends in different companies/industries,
>>to attend professional meetings and special interest group/user meetings.
>>
>>Most companies like to hire people referred by current employees than a
>>
> total
>
>>stranger. Saving money (i.e. fees to recruiters which could be as high
>>
> as
>
>>30% of your annual salary) is one factor. But more important is to have
>>someone who knows you well and knows that you can work with the team. These
>>"referers" DO NOT have to be the decision-makers. They just need to know
>>who to submit the referral and must have good relationship with the management,
>>of course.
>>
>>DO NOT keep the recuiters out of your job-search equation. They should
>>
> be
>
>>an important part. You just have to screen out the bad ones, and yes, there
>>are a lot of them out there.
>>
>>Hate to tell you that, but legacy system experience do not count in job
>>
> search
>
>>nowadays. It is wrong, but it is also reality (and that's another discussion).
>>
>>Since your Java experience is very limited, it is very difficult to find
>>a job that can give you "meatier experience". They are going to demand
>>
> more
>>from you.... things like J2EE and JavaBean.
>
>>As the other poster suggested, you might have to find a different job that
>>can ease you into the Java programming in the near future. It is tough
>>
> and
>
>>there is no guarantee. Sometimes you just have to be at the right place
>>on the right time. But at this economic slowdown, nobody is hiring an entry-level
>>Java programmer.... there are too many out there.
>>
>>Just hang in there, position yourself, wait for the economic turn-around,
>>and your luck might change.
>>
>>Hope this helps.
>>
>>simon.
>>
>>
>>ML <mlo888@usa.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Hello everyone,
>>>
>>>I've been told that the best way in any field to find a job is by
>>>networking, or in other words, meeting IT decision makers by setting up
>>>
>>>"informational interviews" and then have those people refer you to other
>>>
>>>people.
>>>
>>>However, from my experience in IT, instead of referrals to more decision
>>>
>>>making people, I continually get referred to recruiters, which is what
>>>
> a
>
>>>job candidate is trying to avoid in the process of career networking.
>>>
>>>Some fanatical career networking advisers I know insist that it does'nt
>>>
>>>matter what you know, but what you do need to show is passion for the
>>>
>
>>>position that you are pursuing. However, the IT decision makers that
>>>I've dealt with already assume that you are looking for a job, and that
>>>
>>>the business of conducting "informational interviews" doesn't seem to
>>>register with them. Is there some nuance or step that I'm missing in
>>>the process? Or is my sneaking suspicion, that what you know in IT
>>>really does count more than who you do know correct?
>>>
>>>Do any of you have any luck penetrating small business using these kinds
>>>
>>>of techniques?
>>>
>>>I've had a few years of experience COBOL programming during Y2K and have
>>>
>>>partially engineered a switch to Java. What I mean by partially is that
>>>
>>>I've taken a class and have it working on a website I'm hosting at home
>>>
>>>for a non-profit (www.ocachicago.org). However, I am looking for a
>>>means to getting more meatier experience.
>>>
>>>
>

First of all... A great thanks to all of you who have posted.... To
answer your question about what Java I have on the site, First of all, I
have an applet running to create the banner. Secondly, I have a servlet
running to create the login box which leads to a servlet-JDBC
application. If some prospective employers want to check it out, I
provide them with a log in.

[ML]

simon wrote:
> I don't know about the others, but in my "dictionary", "networking" <> "informational
> interviews". Networking, IMHO, is to have/make friends in different companies/industries,
> to attend professional meetings and special interest group/user meetings.
>
> Most companies like to hire people referred by current employees than a total
> stranger. Saving money (i.e. fees to recruiters which could be as high as
> 30% of your annual salary) is one factor. But more important is to have
> someone who knows you well and knows that you can work with the team. These
> "referers" DO NOT have to be the decision-makers. They just need to know
> who to submit the referral and must have good relationship with the management,
> of course.
>
> DO NOT keep the recuiters out of your job-search equation. They should be
> an important part. You just have to screen out the bad ones, and yes, there
> are a lot of them out there.
>
> Hate to tell you that, but legacy system experience do not count in job search
> nowadays. It is wrong, but it is also reality (and that's another discussion).
>
> Since your Java experience is very limited, it is very difficult to find
> a job that can give you "meatier experience". They are going to demand more
> from you.... things like J2EE and JavaBean.
>
> As the other poster suggested, you might have to find a different job that
> can ease you into the Java programming in the near future. It is tough and
> there is no guarantee. Sometimes you just have to be at the right place
> on the right time. But at this economic slowdown, nobody is hiring an entry-level
> Java programmer.... there are too many out there.
>
> Just hang in there, position yourself, wait for the economic turn-around,
> and your luck might change.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> simon.
>
>
> ML <mlo888@usa.net> wrote:
>
>>Hello everyone,
>>
>>I've been told that the best way in any field to find a job is by
>>networking, or in other words, meeting IT decision makers by setting up
>>
>
>>"informational interviews" and then have those people refer you to other
>>
>
>>people.
>>
>>However, from my experience in IT, instead of referrals to more decision
>>
>
>>making people, I continually get referred to recruiters, which is what a
>>
>
>>job candidate is trying to avoid in the process of career networking.
>>
>>Some fanatical career networking advisers I know insist that it does'nt
>>
>
>>matter what you know, but what you do need to show is passion for the
>>position that you are pursuing. However, the IT decision makers that
>>I've dealt with already assume that you are looking for a job, and that
>>
>
>>the business of conducting "informational interviews" doesn't seem to
>>register with them. Is there some nuance or step that I'm missing in
>>the process? Or is my sneaking suspicion, that what you know in IT
>>really does count more than who you do know correct?
>>
>>Do any of you have any luck penetrating small business using these kinds
>>
>
>>of techniques?
>>
>>I've had a few years of experience COBOL programming during Y2K and have
>>
>
>>partially engineered a switch to Java. What I mean by partially is that
>>
>
>>I've taken a class and have it working on a website I'm hosting at home
>>
>
>>for a non-profit (www.ocachicago.org). However, I am looking for a
>>means to getting more meatier experience.
>>
>>
>

Thanks for the advice.... Since you mention beans and J2EE, can you
recommend any good websites/books dealing with these topics?

I have also been attending the local Java users group meetings in my
area and by a some stroke of luck, I managed to win IBM Websphere Studio
in a lottery. Can any of you recommend websites/books about learning this?

[MarkN]

>
>Thanks for the advice.... Since you mention beans and J2EE, can you
>recommend any good websites/books dealing with these topics?
>
>I have also been attending the local Java users group meetings in my
>area and by a some stroke of luck, I managed to win IBM Websphere Studio

>in a lottery. Can any of you recommend websites/books about learning this?
>

I wouldn't bother much with 'Javabeans'. Spend more time with core Java
and J2EE technologies. And don't get caught up in the EJB and Web services
hype(s)

www.theserverside.com
www.ibm.com/developerworks
www.javaworld.com
www.java.orielly.com
java.sun.com
www.apache.org
www.sys-con.com/java
www.javalobby.org

As for books - anything from O'Reilly or WROX.


By Websphere Studio do you mean 'Websphere Studio' or 'Websphere Studio Application
Developer'?

[simon]

Best practices for writing EJBs and architecting J2EE based solutions
are available at http://java.sun.com/j2ee/blueprints/index.html. I found

the design patterns section in there to be very useful.

And the following links have some interesting articles on Java development
and its future...

Java's Future:
http://www.fawcette.com/reports/java...02/roundtable/

Java App Development Trends:
http://www.fawcette.com/reports/java...apro_presents/

Sun's Java Plans:
http://www.fawcette.com/reports/javaone/032702/keynote/

As of IBM Websphere, I am not familiar with it. As a matter of fact, all
the IBM I have ever worked with are AS400 and Lotus Notes, and that's enough
IBM for me, ha.

Hope this helps.

simon.


ML <mlo888@usa.net> wrote:
>simon wrote:
>> I don't know about the others, but in my "dictionary", "networking" <>
"informational
>> interviews". Networking, IMHO, is to have/make friends in different companies/industries,
>> to attend professional meetings and special interest group/user meetings.
>>
>> Most companies like to hire people referred by current employees than
a total
>> stranger. Saving money (i.e. fees to recruiters which could be as high
as
>> 30% of your annual salary) is one factor. But more important is to have
>> someone who knows you well and knows that you can work with the team.
These
>> "referers" DO NOT have to be the decision-makers. They just need to know
>> who to submit the referral and must have good relationship with the management,
>> of course.
>>
>> DO NOT keep the recuiters out of your job-search equation. They should
be
>> an important part. You just have to screen out the bad ones, and yes,
there
>> are a lot of them out there.
>>
>> Hate to tell you that, but legacy system experience do not count in job
search
>> nowadays. It is wrong, but it is also reality (and that's another discussion).
>>
>> Since your Java experience is very limited, it is very difficult to find
>> a job that can give you "meatier experience". They are going to demand
more
>> from you.... things like J2EE and JavaBean.
>>
>> As the other poster suggested, you might have to find a different job
that
>> can ease you into the Java programming in the near future. It is tough
and
>> there is no guarantee. Sometimes you just have to be at the right place
>> on the right time. But at this economic slowdown, nobody is hiring an
entry-level
>> Java programmer.... there are too many out there.
>>
>> Just hang in there, position yourself, wait for the economic turn-around,
>> and your luck might change.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> simon.
>>
>>
>> ML <mlo888@usa.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Hello everyone,
>>>
>>>I've been told that the best way in any field to find a job is by
>>>networking, or in other words, meeting IT decision makers by setting up
>>>
>>
>>>"informational interviews" and then have those people refer you to other
>>>
>>
>>>people.
>>>
>>>However, from my experience in IT, instead of referrals to more decision
>>>
>>
>>>making people, I continually get referred to recruiters, which is what
a
>>>
>>
>>>job candidate is trying to avoid in the process of career networking.
>>>
>>>Some fanatical career networking advisers I know insist that it does'nt
>>>
>>
>>>matter what you know, but what you do need to show is passion for the

>>>position that you are pursuing. However, the IT decision makers that

>>>I've dealt with already assume that you are looking for a job, and that
>>>
>>
>>>the business of conducting "informational interviews" doesn't seem to

>>>register with them. Is there some nuance or step that I'm missing in

>>>the process? Or is my sneaking suspicion, that what you know in IT
>>>really does count more than who you do know correct?
>>>
>>>Do any of you have any luck penetrating small business using these kinds
>>>
>>
>>>of techniques?
>>>
>>>I've had a few years of experience COBOL programming during Y2K and have
>>>
>>
>>>partially engineered a switch to Java. What I mean by partially is that
>>>
>>
>>>I've taken a class and have it working on a website I'm hosting at home
>>>
>>
>>>for a non-profit (www.ocachicago.org). However, I am looking for a
>>>means to getting more meatier experience.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>Thanks for the advice.... Since you mention beans and J2EE, can you
>recommend any good websites/books dealing with these topics?
>
>I have also been attending the local Java users group meetings in my
>area and by a some stroke of luck, I managed to win IBM Websphere Studio

>in a lottery. Can any of you recommend websites/books about learning this?
>

[MarkN]

">As of IBM Websphere, I am not familiar with it. As a matter of fact, all
>the IBM I have ever worked with are AS400 and Lotus Notes, and that's enough
>IBM for me, ha.

Sorry your experience was not the best. I understand you feelings. Some
things on the AS400 are not the best and Lotus Notes can be a pain if not
used properly - which is usually the case.

As for 'IBM Websphere' - well I use IBM products daily so here it goes.

IBM is rebranding many of its products under the Websphere name. It use
to mean the application server.

Before Now
Websphere Websphere Application Server
VisualAge for Java and Websphere Studio Application Developer (and
Websphere Studio variations)
MQSeries Websphere MQ

DB2 is also being incorporated in such away that it is 'disappearing'. Lotus
Notes is beginning to use DB2 and Websphere. Who knows if it won't become
Websphere Messaging and Collaberation.

Mark

[simon]

Thanks for the interesting info, Mark. IBM has always given me the
impression of a huge corporate bureaucratic dinosaur that is very very slow
to changes. They might be good at innovation, but terrible at marketing and
terrible at customers support (this is based on my personal experience with
their AS400 support team). I can almost see their senior management,
sitting behind their mahogany desks, playing gods and lost touch with the
customers/market needs.

Anyway, I sure hope this "rebranding" works, for the sakes of those hard
working developers in that company. =)

simon.


"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d473b6f@10.1.10.29...
>
> ">As of IBM Websphere, I am not familiar with it. As a matter of fact,
all
> >the IBM I have ever worked with are AS400 and Lotus Notes, and that's
enough
> >IBM for me, ha.
>
> Sorry your experience was not the best. I understand you feelings. Some
> things on the AS400 are not the best and Lotus Notes can be a pain if not
> used properly - which is usually the case.
>
> As for 'IBM Websphere' - well I use IBM products daily so here it goes.
>
> IBM is rebranding many of its products under the Websphere name. It use
> to mean the application server.
>
> Before Now
> Websphere Websphere Application Server
> VisualAge for Java and Websphere Studio Application Developer (and
> Websphere Studio variations)
> MQSeries Websphere MQ
>
> DB2 is also being incorporated in such away that it is 'disappearing'.
Lotus
> Notes is beginning to use DB2 and Websphere. Who knows if it won't become
> Websphere Messaging and Collaberation.
>
> Mark
>

[patch]

MarkN wrote in message <3d473b6f@10.1.10.29>...
[..]
>As for 'IBM Websphere' - well I use IBM products daily so here it goes.
>
>IBM is rebranding many of its products under the Websphere name. It use
>to mean the application server.
>
>Before Now
>Websphere Websphere Application Server
>VisualAge for Java and Websphere Studio Application Developer (and
>Websphere Studio variations)
>MQSeries Websphere MQ
>
>DB2 is also being incorporated in such away that it is 'disappearing'.
Lotus
>Notes is beginning to use DB2 and Websphere. Who knows if it won't become
>Websphere Messaging and Collaberation.


Hey Mark/group... is it save to assume

MS .net == IBM Websphere?

and maybe not litarly but as in idea/design/strategy?

patch

[MarkN]

I would say you have the right Idea. Sun is doing the same thing. MS is
creating .Net servers, etc.

I guess it is so people will get the idea that these things work together
and are not just a database and a webserver and an ....
The difference being that MS stuff pretty much only works with MS's stuff
or on it. There are a few exceptions (i.e. .Net is supposed to work with
Apache webserver - with an extra 'pay for' product) but then it is MS's stuff
works better than anyone else's with their stuff.


>Hey Mark/group... is it save to assume
>
>MS .net == IBM Websphere?
>
>and maybe not litarly but as in idea/design/strategy?
>
>patch
>
>
>

[MarkN]

Any large organization is like that (I do believe it is not a good thing).
IBM is very large and is made up of many different parts and purchased companies.
So that is why (sometimes) certain parts of their tools don't work well
with others. But many of those have improved. For all the platforms and
tools they support - things aren't so bad. And sometimes different divisions
work better than others. I've had a pretty good experience with them. Part
of the reason things seem to be bad is that they still seem to be skitish
because of their own past legal issues. Also, as for Lotus Notes, they really
were purchased by IBM 'recently'. It is a large product and does much more
out of the box than any other product including Exchange. They seemed to
have wanted to keep it separate until recently and the next version will
incorporate some of the things I mentioned.

They are trying to regain touch (as much as possible) and are trying to help
out AS400 customers - they are offering them free upgrades to the new OS
- and bring them into the new/current world. Although AS400 has been a good
platform for Java.

IBM isn't going away. Linux has been good for them and has breathed new
life (or has seem to) into old products and given life to new.

Mark


"simon" <substring0NOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Thanks for the interesting info, Mark. IBM has always given me the
>impression of a huge corporate bureaucratic dinosaur that is very very slow
>to changes. They might be good at innovation, but terrible at marketing
and
>terrible at customers support (this is based on my personal experience with
>their AS400 support team). I can almost see their senior management,
>sitting behind their mahogany desks, playing gods and lost touch with the
>customers/market needs.
>
>Anyway, I sure hope this "rebranding" works, for the sakes of those hard
>working developers in that company. =)
>
>simon.
>
>
>"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d473b6f@10.1.10.29...
>>
>> ">As of IBM Websphere, I am not familiar with it. As a matter of fact,
>all
>> >the IBM I have ever worked with are AS400 and Lotus Notes, and that's
>enough
>> >IBM for me, ha.
>>
>> Sorry your experience was not the best. I understand you feelings. Some
>> things on the AS400 are not the best and Lotus Notes can be a pain if
not
>> used properly - which is usually the case.
>>
>> As for 'IBM Websphere' - well I use IBM products daily so here it goes.
>>
>> IBM is rebranding many of its products under the Websphere name. It use
>> to mean the application server.
>>
>> Before Now
>> Websphere Websphere Application Server
>> VisualAge for Java and Websphere Studio Application Developer (and
>> Websphere Studio variations)
>> MQSeries Websphere MQ
>>
>> DB2 is also being incorporated in such away that it is 'disappearing'.
>Lotus
>> Notes is beginning to use DB2 and Websphere. Who knows if it won't become
>> Websphere Messaging and Collaberation.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>
>

[ML]

MarkN wrote:
>>Thanks for the advice.... Since you mention beans and J2EE, can you
>>recommend any good websites/books dealing with these topics?
>>
>>I have also been attending the local Java users group meetings in my
>>area and by a some stroke of luck, I managed to win IBM Websphere Studio
>>
>
>>in a lottery. Can any of you recommend websites/books about learning this?
>>
>>
>
> I wouldn't bother much with 'Javabeans'. Spend more time with core Java
> and J2EE technologies. And don't get caught up in the EJB and Web services
> hype(s)
>
> www.theserverside.com
> www.ibm.com/developerworks
> www.javaworld.com
> www.java.orielly.com
> java.sun.com
> www.apache.org
> www.sys-con.com/java
> www.javalobby.org
>
> As for books - anything from O'Reilly or WROX.
>
>
> By Websphere Studio do you mean 'Websphere Studio' or 'Websphere Studio Application
> Developer'?
>
>
>

I have IBM WebSphere Studio Application Developer for Windows, although
I believe that there are some apps in the package that will work with
Linux or Unix.

J2EE eh? What makes EJB and Javabeans overrated?