When will people ever learn?--I think this needs to be said

[PHIL]

Hello. I'm a CS student working on my bachelor's degree thru home-study. I'll
be done within 2 years. Before I make my comment, I would like to apologize
in advance for my somewhat lengthy post, but it's the only way I can make
my statement. Saying what I'm about to say, I'm sure I'm gonna catch a lot
a heat, if not downright anger, especially being a student (an older one
at that, I'm 42) so here goes. In an ever-changing economy when companies
are constantly changing the game rules for the benefit of profits and owners,
when are people gonna realize that NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE is a permanent
employee anymore? That the 40 year career jobs with good benefits and retirement
are long, long gone? When are you gonna realize that everyone is a temporary
employee? It seems to me that everybody who's complaining about lack of jobs
are those who are very short-sighted and can't see far ahead into the future.
Haven't you learn your bitter and painful lesson on the treatment you've
gotten from former employers who've given you the shaft as a result of your
hard work, dedication, long and ever-lasting loyalty and just being a good
worker? Apparently not. Understanding what employers are doing, why would
you want to get another job only to have the same thing happen to you ALL
OVER AGAIN? Employers are very picky and stingy and they are not hiring
too many people over 25 years old. A sad fact of life, but true nonetheless.

So what's my point? If you have the set of skills and education needed which
are in demand and employers for whatever reason won't hire you, Wouldn't
it make sense to start your own business or perhaps network with other unemployed
programmers with skills and form partnerships together and start businesses?
Obiviously, I feel this is the only way to go. Employers have already sent
their message to the American worker: We don't want to hire you, but we want
you to spend your money on our products. Then get lost!! Seems like an open
and shut case to me.

Now many of you out there with the negativity that you have will say not
everybody is cut out to be in business for themselves. I think that's a moot
point. I think it's something that should be seriously considered because
employers aren't giving you a **** thing except the shaft, which of course
has already been proven. It also goes to show that the negative and bitter
people here can give a million reasons why not to try this and can't give
one reason why to do it and ACT ON IT!!!! And that one reason would make
the difference between having it all and having nothing.

That being said, I'll finish with this: Those in the CS/IT field should already
know that this business is about innovation and creativity. It is only limited
by your imagination. Therefore, if you can see long into the future being
armed with the 2 qualities I mention, then the world is yours. But if you
seek security in the form a just over broke aka job, then my advice to you
is get out. You have no business in this field. You are better doing something
else. No insult intended, just being honest and direct. My 2 cents worth.
PHIL

[Charles Kiley]

<Q> Are you (or were you ever) an independent computer consultant?
<Q> Have you ever formed a partnership with other programmers and started
a computer consulting business?

If the answer is no to both of my questions then your post holds little water
with me.

While it isn't very difficult to form your own company (in fact as long as
you use your own name you don't need to) getting and keeping clients is a
whole different story. Unless you are writing static web pages for family
and friends, it takes a lot more than the ability to write source code to
survive as an independant consultant.

If you truly have some knowledge or experiences that you wish to share then
I invite you to visit the Real Rates BBS at http://pub2.ezboard.com/bcomputerconsultants
and participate in some of the discussions that take place over there.

[Mark]

Phil,
There is alot of truth to what you have said. But it must be tempered
with reality. I am an independent consultant/contractor/whatever. I don't
think everyone is cut out for it. It takes a lot of effort and skill and
ability. Sometimes the economy lets those without this be one. The good
ones and the long lasting ones must always be learning and flexible. Of
course there are always exceptions to the rules.

The bigger issue is the companies that 'hire' the consultants usually really
want employees. Most contractors/consultants are really psuedo-employees
(i.e. - Work must be done on-site, with provided tools and between certain
hours). Also most companies want to have a vendors list and so it is difficult
for independents to get work with them. By the time the money goes through
all the hands there is little for the actual person doing the work.

I am amazed at the number of clueless/limited skilled people involved in
this industry. (not that I know eveything or even close to it) Unfortunately
many are in someway in charge of the projects and the 'hiring'. Evaluating
talent is difficult.

There are so many factors involved that there are no real absolutes in this
business. Talent, hardwork, constant learning, etc. may get you nothing
more than an ulcer and a broken family. Way too many people with everything
skill wise (who have cramed 15 years experience/knowledge into < 7) are on
the outside looking in at those with 1 years experience 20 times over. I'm
not saying everone needs to be an engineer. I'm not. In fact I would say
that things they are concerned with usually detracts from business application
development (but that is a different issue).

I've said this before (sort of) - but how many of us go to the doctor and
tell him/her what is wrong with us and how to fix it or just perform surgery
on ourselves? How many go to the car manufacturers and tell them how to
make our next car or just build our own? Ok, there are a couple of dorks
who will try and couple of real talented people. So how come everyone can
write applications(? It takes a lot knowledge and skill and ability to do
it right. Having a program that works does not mean it was done right.
Writing code in a certain syntax that makes the computer do something isn't
either. Eventually the engine will fall out or gangrene will occur. But
that doesn't seem to bother anyone with software development.

Mark

[PHIL]

"Charles Kiley" <ckiley@nospam.com> wrote:
>
><Q> Are you (or were you ever) an independent computer consultant?
><Q> Have you ever formed a partnership with other programmers and started
>a computer consulting business?
>
>If the answer is no to both of my questions then your post holds little
water
>with me.
>
>While it isn't very difficult to form your own company (in fact as long
as
>you use your own name you don't need to) getting and keeping clients is
a
>whole different story. Unless you are writing static web pages for family
>and friends, it takes a lot more than the ability to write source code to
>survive as an independant consultant.
>
>If you truly have some knowledge or experiences that you wish to share then
>I invite you to visit the Real Rates BBS at http://pub2.ezboard.com/bcomputerconsultants
> and participate in some of the discussions that take place over there.

Charles, there's an old business saying that I believe in firmly: Don't compete,
CREATE! Find out what everybody else is doing and then DON'T DO IT!! And
I also believe in the saying "God bless the child that has his own. Very
powerful statements indeed. Before I posted my comment, I have been out there
talking to people nonstop about this issue. While the stories I got varied
from one extreme to the next, they basically confirmed what I've been saying.
After all, what do you do when you have employers who brutally abuse the
H1B visa with help from the ITAA and who find every Tom, **** and Harry reason
not to hire you, especially if you are over 25? Yet these same employers
demand years of experience and won't hire them. What's wrong with this picture?
The reality is the software industry is a business where you are here today
and gone tomorrow and realizing that, people do need to wise up. When I mention
starting your own business, what I failed to mention is it should be based
upon need NOT WANT as many failed software companies can attest. Like a previous
poster named Mark stated, there are way too many clueless people in this
business. He's right about that. My 2 cents worth. PHIL

[Cmutt]

Its very difficult to compete with people half way around the world willing
to do HI-Tech work for 500 dollars a month. You have to realize that this
is who your competition is. I'm not in the Technology field, but from afar
I do see opportunities. Furthermore, I would have to agree with Mark, if
you haven't been in the Tech field, you should reserve judgement about those
in it. Its not easy to start a company, or offer a service with MONOPOLIES
in the sector. When you have one company advertising that 96% of fortune
500 companies use their product, and another company punishing manufactors
for entering into deals with their rivals.All I can say is starting a business
is always a good idea, but the question is: "Is your idea good for business".
7/10 of all startups fail, 5/10 fail in the first 3 years. I read somewhere
that the stats were even worse for the DOT.COMS. People with families can't
afford failure, and think you belittle the fact that the rug was pulled out
from under a lot people.

I don't think you take into consideration that many of these people in the
High Tech field were being lead to believe that there was a shortage of workers
in their field. Everyone was touting this shortage Companies, Universities,
the Gov't. So I ask you why wouldn't any reasonable person believe that they
could have a long career in this field. A career is not a job, flipping burgers
is a job. Practicing Law is not having a job, its a career, and many lawyers
before they pass the bar, and after land jobs with small and large law firms
alike. Some go own to start their own firms, and have their on practices,
but most do not.

So, I'll ask you do you think it would sit well with lawyers if after they
spent X amount of thousands of dollars on their degrees, and spent X amount
of hours studying the LAW, that their industry would now be shipped overseas.
The Bar Associations in every state would be up in arms. BTW, I'm thinking
of going to law schools, because as best I can see they are going to make
out like bandits in this country.

--Vernon

"PHIL" <crackermoon@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"Charles Kiley" <ckiley@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>><Q> Are you (or were you ever) an independent computer consultant?
>><Q> Have you ever formed a partnership with other programmers and started
>>a computer consulting business?
>>
>>If the answer is no to both of my questions then your post holds little
>water
>>with me.
>>
>>While it isn't very difficult to form your own company (in fact as long
>as
>>you use your own name you don't need to) getting and keeping clients is
>a
>>whole different story. Unless you are writing static web pages for family
>>and friends, it takes a lot more than the ability to write source code
to
>>survive as an independant consultant.
>>
>>If you truly have some knowledge or experiences that you wish to share
then
>>I invite you to visit the Real Rates BBS at http://pub2.ezboard.com/bcomputerconsultants
>> and participate in some of the discussions that take place over there.
>
>Charles, there's an old business saying that I believe in firmly: Don't
compete,
>CREATE! Find out what everybody else is doing and then DON'T DO IT!! And
>I also believe in the saying "God bless the child that has his own. Very
>powerful statements indeed. Before I posted my comment, I have been out
there
>talking to people nonstop about this issue. While the stories I got varied
>from one extreme to the next, they basically confirmed what I've been saying.
>After all, what do you do when you have employers who brutally abuse the
>H1B visa with help from the ITAA and who find every Tom, **** and Harry
reason
>not to hire you, especially if you are over 25? Yet these same employers
>demand years of experience and won't hire them. What's wrong with this picture?
>The reality is the software industry is a business where you are here today
>and gone tomorrow and realizing that, people do need to wise up. When I
mention
>starting your own business, what I failed to mention is it should be based
>upon need NOT WANT as many failed software companies can attest. Like a
previous
>poster named Mark stated, there are way too many clueless people in this
>business. He's right about that. My 2 cents worth. PHIL
>

[Sam]

I agree with most of the premise. I do think you have to have a degree or
some kind of formal education. Starting a business and networking w/ others
is an excellent idea in this economy. The issue of companies not hiring people
over the age of 25 , I do not think is true at all. People get hired in IT
at different ages depending on their skill set. However, nobody is really
getting hired in the economic environment (that includes any age). I am not
old by any means(27). Lots of people are working at a full time job and doing
contracting on the side to make additional cash. That can even lead up to
your business or getting in w/ someone else in business. That is a great
way to go. Good luck to you.
Sam
"PHIL" <crackermoon@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Hello. I'm a CS student working on my bachelor's degree thru home-study.
I'll
>be done within 2 years. Before I make my comment, I would like to apologize
>in advance for my somewhat lengthy post, but it's the only way I can make
>my statement. Saying what I'm about to say, I'm sure I'm gonna catch a lot
>a heat, if not downright anger, especially being a student (an older one
>at that, I'm 42) so here goes. In an ever-changing economy when companies
>are constantly changing the game rules for the benefit of profits and owners,
>when are people gonna realize that NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE is a permanent
>employee anymore? That the 40 year career jobs with good benefits and retirement
>are long, long gone? When are you gonna realize that everyone is a temporary
>employee? It seems to me that everybody who's complaining about lack of
jobs
>are those who are very short-sighted and can't see far ahead into the future.
>Haven't you learn your bitter and painful lesson on the treatment you've
>gotten from former employers who've given you the shaft as a result of your
>hard work, dedication, long and ever-lasting loyalty and just being a good
>worker? Apparently not. Understanding what employers are doing, why would
>you want to get another job only to have the same thing happen to you ALL
>OVER AGAIN? Employers are very picky and stingy and they are not hiring
>too many people over 25 years old. A sad fact of life, but true nonetheless.
>
>So what's my point? If you have the set of skills and education needed which
>are in demand and employers for whatever reason won't hire you, Wouldn't
>it make sense to start your own business or perhaps network with other unemployed
>programmers with skills and form partnerships together and start businesses?
>Obiviously, I feel this is the only way to go. Employers have already sent
>their message to the American worker: We don't want to hire you, but we
want
>you to spend your money on our products. Then get lost!! Seems like an
open
>and shut case to me.
>
>Now many of you out there with the negativity that you have will say not
>everybody is cut out to be in business for themselves. I think that's a
moot
>point. I think it's something that should be seriously considered because
>employers aren't giving you a **** thing except the shaft, which of course
>has already been proven. It also goes to show that the negative and bitter
>people here can give a million reasons why not to try this and can't give
>one reason why to do it and ACT ON IT!!!! And that one reason would make
>the difference between having it all and having nothing.
>
>That being said, I'll finish with this: Those in the CS/IT field should
already
>know that this business is about innovation and creativity. It is only limited
>by your imagination. Therefore, if you can see long into the future being
>armed with the 2 qualities I mention, then the world is yours. But if you
>seek security in the form a just over broke aka job, then my advice to you
>is get out. You have no business in this field. You are better doing something
>else. No insult intended, just being honest and direct. My 2 cents worth.
> PHIL