Recommending a technology


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Thread: Recommending a technology

  1. #1
    Michael Gautier Guest

    Recommending a technology


    Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many years
    of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.

    There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
    application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline requirements,
    I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements, the
    following matrix was proposed:

    WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Cross Platform X X X X
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Offline X X X
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Consistency N/A ? X X X
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Learning Curve Moderate High High
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The predetermined
    delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have been
    slated for development. This would compete against an existing product that
    is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to beat
    out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and was
    to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.


    My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are acceptable
    tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that Java
    or Flash would be the best tool for the job.

    My questions:

    1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
    2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the customer's
    desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The
    decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
    3. Would anyone do anything differently?

    I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
    in advance.





  2. #2
    Guy Smith Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology



    >cross platform, offline capable, data entry application.


    An applet is a cross between Java on the desktop and WebForms. Applets have
    the advantage of providing an user interface with robust functionality and
    are deployed from a central location. Java Applets can be granted system
    priviliges on the client (to get out of the sandbox), so they can potentially
    write files to hard drives, etc, etc. They could be made to work offline.
    Applets have the catch that they will not run natively in the browser above
    version 1.1.3 (?) of the JDK (possibly no native encryption for connection
    (no https)). You will find their behaviour inconsistent between browsers,
    in the form of "it works in this browser and crashes that one". While these
    inconsistencies can be worked out, they are impossible to plan for and will
    be time consuming to resolve. A Dr. Watson, doesn't give a lot of clues as
    to what line of java code is crashing the browser. You can use a "plug-in"
    provided by Sun to allow swing, etc to work in the browsers (i.e. Java 1.2
    + ). The plug-in has a host of problems, such as inconsistent chaching,
    failing to update, etc. Check out the Sun site for a few thousand complaints.
    Some are justified, some are not. There is also problems with browser versions
    if you try to have the applets interact with javascript and html. The applets
    will self update if a newer version is available and the browser has it's
    update setting properly set. I am probably making them sound like a horror
    story. For a simple application they may work fine. I found them troublesome,
    although I don't think that has been everyones experience. Be prepared for
    your mileage to very.

    HTML has very limited user interface functionality and as your chart shows,
    will not work offline. There are also round trip concerns if more than simple
    data validation needs to be done.

    I have no idea where flash fits in as I have never programmed with it. From
    what I've seen on the internet I don't think it has the same functionality
    as Java does.

    Have not worked with .NET yet so I have no idea about Winforms.

    Java has the advantage of building user interfaces with a lot of functionality,
    being cross platform, etc. Being on the desktop it can work outside of the
    java sandbox and you are free to use the latest version. On the desktop it
    has all the disadvantages of any client application: it needs to be re-deployed
    for patches and updates. One work around I would suggest is as follows:
    Use a browser to distribute the application (i.e. download it off of www.mypage.com").
    Build into the application an auto-updater. When the user launches the
    application, the auto-updater is run first. It looks on the network for
    updates and if found, downloads and installs the update files. Once finished,
    it launches the actual, now updated, application. With such an approach
    you'll have all the advantages of applets with none of the fuss. I think
    Sun may make an auto-updater like product already.

    If you are worried about learning Java, don't be. If you understand objects,
    the learning curve is not bad. Java is a LOT like VB6, in that it is type
    safe, has the typical suite of if/then while/do type constructs and is event
    driven. The ADO model is conceptually similar to JDBC. You'll find a lot
    of the concepts and programming models similar enough to get you started.
    I'm sure someone will flame me for drawing the VB/Java comparison but I
    learned Java in a just over a week, coming from a predominately VB6 background
    (and some C++). Get a Teach Yourself in 21 Days book to get your feet wet
    and from there you'll be able to understand more serious books. Could be
    a good reason to have your company send you on a training course on a sunny
    beach somewhere ! Java definitely meets your requirements.



    >Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many

    years
    >of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
    >
    >There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
    >application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline requirements,
    >I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements, the
    >following matrix was proposed:
    >
    > WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >Cross Platform X X X X
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >Offline X X X
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >Consistency N/A ? X X X
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >Learning Curve Moderate High High
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    >Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The predetermined
    >delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have been
    >slated for development. This would compete against an existing product that
    >is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to

    beat
    >out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and was
    >to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
    >
    >
    >My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are acceptable
    >tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that Java
    >or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
    >
    >My questions:
    >
    >1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
    >2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the customer's
    >desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The
    >decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
    >3. Would anyone do anything differently?
    >
    >I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
    >in advance.
    >
    >
    >
    >



  3. #3
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology


    Michael. If client cross platform is the requirement w/ offline then you
    are limited to Java and maybe Flash (I don't know how well Flash works 'offline'
    - depends on what you need to do). .Net on the client (other than serving
    up HTML) is a long way off on any other 'mainstream' platform - and there
    is no assurance to their compatibility level (past experience says it is
    not good).

    I would say is that if you really understand .Net technology then the Java
    curve will not be that great. I would say less than Flash. As for Java
    and Java applets - if you code properly the code can be 99% the same - we
    are doing it. We switched from Applet housed to Application in about an
    hour. As for offline capability - Hope that isn't included in 2-3 months.
    I think you said not.

    If you have any server side requirements, while Flash can create cool UIs,
    Flash may not be the best choice if you want to do good OO coding. This
    may not be an issue for you or is something you are willing to risk.

    At one of my clients - our Java client just runs on XP while VB clients are
    still being tested and bugs worked out.

    You are at a difficult point. It is very difficult to pick technologies
    without a good deal of experience with them. Seems most of your [current]
    technology knowledge is mostly WebForms. And since that is your knowledge
    area, you are leaning towards that and that is not good.

    Mark

    "Michael Gautier" <vb@vb.com> wrote:
    >
    >Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many

    years
    >of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
    >
    >There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
    >application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline requirements,
    >I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements, the
    >following matrix was proposed:
    >
    > WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >Cross Platform X X X X
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >Offline X X X
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >Consistency N/A ? X X X
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >Learning Curve Moderate High High
    >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    >Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The predetermined
    >delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have been
    >slated for development. This would compete against an existing product that
    >is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to

    beat
    >out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and was
    >to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
    >
    >
    >My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are acceptable
    >tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that Java
    >or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
    >
    >My questions:
    >
    >1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
    >2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the customer's
    >desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The
    >decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
    >3. Would anyone do anything differently?
    >
    >I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
    >in advance.
    >
    >
    >
    >



  4. #4
    solex Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology

    Michael,
    I have no idea of your application design but have you looked at Lotus
    Notes, for straight data entry it is really easy to deploy. It will
    statisfy your Offline needs natively and is cross platform. Deployment
    will require a lotus notes client, but client applications are
    automatically updated when changes are made to the server application.

    Dan


    Michael Gautier wrote:
    > Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many years
    > of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
    >
    > There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
    > application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline requirements,
    > I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements, the
    > following matrix was proposed:
    >
    > WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
    > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > Cross Platform X X X X
    > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > Offline X X X
    > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
    > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > Consistency N/A ? X X X
    > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
    > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
    > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > Learning Curve Moderate High High
    > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    > Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The predetermined
    > delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have been
    > slated for development. This would compete against an existing product that
    > is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to beat
    > out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and was
    > to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
    >
    >
    > My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are acceptable
    > tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that Java
    > or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
    >
    > My questions:
    >
    > 1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
    > 2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the customer's
    > desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The
    > decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
    > 3. Would anyone do anything differently?
    >
    > I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
    > in advance.
    >
    >
    >
    >



  5. #5
    Michael Gautier Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology

    With the cross platform concerns and your feedback I am recommending Java.
    The question I have is what would be my fallback position if the offline
    requirement is taken off the table?



    "MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d75e193$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > Michael. If client cross platform is the requirement w/ offline then you
    > are limited to Java and maybe Flash (I don't know how well Flash works

    'offline'
    > - depends on what you need to do). .Net on the client (other than serving
    > up HTML) is a long way off on any other 'mainstream' platform - and there
    > is no assurance to their compatibility level (past experience says it is
    > not good).
    >
    > I would say is that if you really understand .Net technology then the Java
    > curve will not be that great. I would say less than Flash. As for Java
    > and Java applets - if you code properly the code can be 99% the same - we
    > are doing it. We switched from Applet housed to Application in about an
    > hour. As for offline capability - Hope that isn't included in 2-3 months.
    > I think you said not.
    >
    > If you have any server side requirements, while Flash can create cool UIs,
    > Flash may not be the best choice if you want to do good OO coding. This
    > may not be an issue for you or is something you are willing to risk.
    >
    > At one of my clients - our Java client just runs on XP while VB clients

    are
    > still being tested and bugs worked out.
    >
    > You are at a difficult point. It is very difficult to pick technologies
    > without a good deal of experience with them. Seems most of your [current]
    > technology knowledge is mostly WebForms. And since that is your knowledge
    > area, you are leaning towards that and that is not good.
    >
    > Mark
    >
    > "Michael Gautier" <vb@vb.com> wrote:
    > >
    > >Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many

    > years
    > >of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
    > >
    > >There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
    > >application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline

    requirements,
    > >I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,

    the
    > >following matrix was proposed:
    > >
    > > WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >Cross Platform X X X X
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >Offline X X X
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >Consistency N/A ? X X X
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >Learning Curve Moderate High High
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >
    > >Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The

    predetermined
    > >delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have been
    > >slated for development. This would compete against an existing product

    that
    > >is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to

    > beat
    > >out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and

    was
    > >to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
    > >
    > >
    > >My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are

    acceptable
    > >tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that

    Java
    > >or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
    > >
    > >My questions:
    > >
    > >1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
    > >2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the

    customer's
    > >desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The
    > >decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
    > >3. Would anyone do anything differently?
    > >
    > >I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
    > >in advance.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >




  6. #6
    Michael Gautier Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology

    At my shop there are three contingents, Microsoft, Java and Mainframe. The
    Mainframe has upgraded their systems and is capable of running Java so there
    is an interest in bringing the technology expertise in (as cheaply as
    possible). Additionally, you have infrastructure folks that want to move
    everything to Linux, but the Microsoft Application Developers are holding
    them back. So there are political as well as technical aspects that might
    rule out Lotus in the short term. Although, getting rid of Exchange might be
    tempting, but then you have Oracle versus Lotus, versus Novell. However, I
    am intrigued by the native offline capabilities. I guess it may depend on
    how long it would take to develop it in Java versus learning how to take
    advantage of it in Lotus. At present offline considerations are pushing
    things in the direction of a desktop client, but I would have to figure out
    how important offline capabilities are (basic versus advanced
    functionality). Thanks for the head up though. If you are aware of any other
    packages that offer offline capabilities, I would appreciate it.


    "solex" <solex@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:3d761e02$1@10.1.10.29...
    > Michael,
    > I have no idea of your application design but have you looked at Lotus
    > Notes, for straight data entry it is really easy to deploy. It will
    > statisfy your Offline needs natively and is cross platform. Deployment
    > will require a lotus notes client, but client applications are
    > automatically updated when changes are made to the server application.
    >
    > Dan
    >
    >
    > Michael Gautier wrote:
    > > Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many

    years
    > > of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
    > >
    > > There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
    > > application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline

    requirements,
    > > I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,

    the
    > > following matrix was proposed:
    > >
    > > WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > > Cross Platform X X X X
    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > > Offline X X X
    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > > Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > > Consistency N/A ? X X X
    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > > Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > > Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > > Learning Curve Moderate High High
    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >
    > > Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The

    predetermined
    > > delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have

    been
    > > slated for development. This would compete against an existing product

    that
    > > is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to

    beat
    > > out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and

    was
    > > to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
    > >
    > >
    > > My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are

    acceptable
    > > tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that

    Java
    > > or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
    > >
    > > My questions:
    > >
    > > 1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
    > > 2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the

    customer's
    > > desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The


    > > decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
    > > 3. Would anyone do anything differently?
    > >
    > > I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
    > > in advance.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >




  7. #7
    Michael Gautier Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology

    If the applet can be configured to work offline, how would your delivery
    mechanism work?

    I suspect that offlining an application delivered via a browser (Flash or
    Applet) would mean using a static html page and having the user enable the
    page to be viewed offline via browser options. Does anyone know if this is
    the correct assumption (trying to get a heads up before full research
    begins).


    "Guy Smith" <no@email.com> wrote in message news:3d75afcb$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    >
    > >cross platform, offline capable, data entry application.

    >
    > An applet is a cross between Java on the desktop and WebForms. Applets

    have
    > the advantage of providing an user interface with robust functionality and
    > are deployed from a central location. Java Applets can be granted system
    > priviliges on the client (to get out of the sandbox), so they can

    potentially
    > write files to hard drives, etc, etc. They could be made to work offline.
    > Applets have the catch that they will not run natively in the browser

    above
    > version 1.1.3 (?) of the JDK (possibly no native encryption for connection
    > (no https)). You will find their behaviour inconsistent between browsers,
    > in the form of "it works in this browser and crashes that one". While

    these
    > inconsistencies can be worked out, they are impossible to plan for and

    will
    > be time consuming to resolve. A Dr. Watson, doesn't give a lot of clues as
    > to what line of java code is crashing the browser. You can use a

    "plug-in"
    > provided by Sun to allow swing, etc to work in the browsers (i.e. Java 1.2
    > + ). The plug-in has a host of problems, such as inconsistent chaching,
    > failing to update, etc. Check out the Sun site for a few thousand

    complaints.
    > Some are justified, some are not. There is also problems with browser

    versions
    > if you try to have the applets interact with javascript and html. The

    applets
    > will self update if a newer version is available and the browser has it's
    > update setting properly set. I am probably making them sound like a

    horror
    > story. For a simple application they may work fine. I found them

    troublesome,
    > although I don't think that has been everyones experience. Be prepared

    for
    > your mileage to very.
    >
    > HTML has very limited user interface functionality and as your chart

    shows,
    > will not work offline. There are also round trip concerns if more than

    simple
    > data validation needs to be done.
    >
    > I have no idea where flash fits in as I have never programmed with it.

    From
    > what I've seen on the internet I don't think it has the same functionality
    > as Java does.
    >
    > Have not worked with .NET yet so I have no idea about Winforms.
    >
    > Java has the advantage of building user interfaces with a lot of

    functionality,
    > being cross platform, etc. Being on the desktop it can work outside of the
    > java sandbox and you are free to use the latest version. On the desktop it
    > has all the disadvantages of any client application: it needs to be

    re-deployed
    > for patches and updates. One work around I would suggest is as follows:
    > Use a browser to distribute the application (i.e. download it off of

    www.mypage.com").
    > Build into the application an auto-updater. When the user launches the
    > application, the auto-updater is run first. It looks on the network for
    > updates and if found, downloads and installs the update files. Once

    finished,
    > it launches the actual, now updated, application. With such an approach
    > you'll have all the advantages of applets with none of the fuss. I think
    > Sun may make an auto-updater like product already.
    >
    > If you are worried about learning Java, don't be. If you understand

    objects,
    > the learning curve is not bad. Java is a LOT like VB6, in that it is type
    > safe, has the typical suite of if/then while/do type constructs and is

    event
    > driven. The ADO model is conceptually similar to JDBC. You'll find a lot
    > of the concepts and programming models similar enough to get you started.
    > I'm sure someone will flame me for drawing the VB/Java comparison but I
    > learned Java in a just over a week, coming from a predominately VB6

    background
    > (and some C++). Get a Teach Yourself in 21 Days book to get your feet wet
    > and from there you'll be able to understand more serious books. Could be
    > a good reason to have your company send you on a training course on a

    sunny
    > beach somewhere ! Java definitely meets your requirements.
    >
    >
    >
    > >Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many

    > years
    > >of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
    > >
    > >There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
    > >application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline

    requirements,
    > >I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,

    the
    > >following matrix was proposed:
    > >
    > > WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >Cross Platform X X X X
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >Offline X X X
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >Consistency N/A ? X X X
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >Learning Curve Moderate High High
    > >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >
    > >Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The

    predetermined
    > >delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have been
    > >slated for development. This would compete against an existing product

    that
    > >is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to

    > beat
    > >out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and

    was
    > >to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
    > >
    > >
    > >My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are

    acceptable
    > >tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that

    Java
    > >or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
    > >
    > >My questions:
    > >
    > >1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
    > >2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the

    customer's
    > >desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The
    > >decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
    > >3. Would anyone do anything differently?
    > >
    > >I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
    > >in advance.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >




  8. #8
    solex Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology

    Michael,

    I don't mean to push Lotus Notes but it is on just about all the major
    platforms including but not limited to: Windows, Linux, AS400, Solaris.

    In terms of offline capabilities Lotus Notes is the only software that I
    know of that supports replication effectively. Although Oracle has/had
    Mobile Objects with Oracle Lite as does Microsoft Access, they have not
    been doing replication nearly as long a Lotus, although they might be
    something to look into. A downside to Lotus is that it is next to
    impossible to do complex relational type operations, for instance
    complex reports.

    Lotus Notes supports JAVA as a development language and is J2EE so if
    JAVA is a consideration you might want to consider Lotus Notes as an
    application server, I cannot comment on the scaleability.

    Also you probably should not compare Lotus to Oracle or Novell as they
    are completely different animials in this sense.

    It has been my experience that no matter what your requirements are for
    a development environment, choosing just one tool is next to impossible.
    You will need to choose the tools that are appropriate to do the job
    and integrate.

    Also keep in mind that JAVA on the desktop has virtually failed (in my
    opinion only!) with the exception of some tools and IDE's. It appears
    that the server is where JAVA shines.

    Good Luck!
    Dan

    Michael Gautier wrote:
    > At my shop there are three contingents, Microsoft, Java and Mainframe. The
    > Mainframe has upgraded their systems and is capable of running Java so there
    > is an interest in bringing the technology expertise in (as cheaply as
    > possible). Additionally, you have infrastructure folks that want to move
    > everything to Linux, but the Microsoft Application Developers are holding
    > them back. So there are political as well as technical aspects that might
    > rule out Lotus in the short term. Although, getting rid of Exchange might be
    > tempting, but then you have Oracle versus Lotus, versus Novell. However, I
    > am intrigued by the native offline capabilities. I guess it may depend on
    > how long it would take to develop it in Java versus learning how to take
    > advantage of it in Lotus. At present offline considerations are pushing
    > things in the direction of a desktop client, but I would have to figure out
    > how important offline capabilities are (basic versus advanced
    > functionality). Thanks for the head up though. If you are aware of any other
    > packages that offer offline capabilities, I would appreciate it.
    >
    >
    > "solex" <solex@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:3d761e02$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    >>Michael,
    >>I have no idea of your application design but have you looked at Lotus
    >>Notes, for straight data entry it is really easy to deploy. It will
    >>statisfy your Offline needs natively and is cross platform. Deployment
    >>will require a lotus notes client, but client applications are
    >>automatically updated when changes are made to the server application.
    >>
    >>Dan
    >>
    >>
    >>Michael Gautier wrote:
    >>
    >>>Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many

    >>

    > years
    >
    >>>of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
    >>>
    >>>There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
    >>>application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline

    >>

    > requirements,
    >
    >>>I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,

    >>

    > the
    >
    >>>following matrix was proposed:
    >>>
    >>> WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
    >>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>Cross Platform X X X X
    >>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>Offline X X X
    >>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
    >>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>Consistency N/A ? X X X
    >>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
    >>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
    >>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>Learning Curve Moderate High High
    >>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>
    >>>Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The

    >>

    > predetermined
    >
    >>>delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have

    >>

    > been
    >
    >>>slated for development. This would compete against an existing product

    >>

    > that
    >
    >>>is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want to

    >>

    > beat
    >
    >>>out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and

    >>

    > was
    >
    >>>to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are

    >>

    > acceptable
    >
    >>>tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that

    >>

    > Java
    >
    >>>or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
    >>>
    >>>My questions:
    >>>
    >>>1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
    >>>2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the

    >>

    > customer's
    >
    >>>desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case. The

    >>

    >
    >>>decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
    >>>3. Would anyone do anything differently?
    >>>
    >>>I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank you
    >>>in advance.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >>

    >
    >



  9. #9
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology


    You could fall back to your current knowledge area. That still limits the
    serverside to one platform. But if this is not a concern for you or the
    client (read: they've got lots of $) then go ahead. I wouldn't but that
    is the way I feel.

    The thing is even if they take it off the table and you go back to a browser
    only implementation then you are stuck or will end up with 2 interfaces if
    they change their minds. But clients never change their minds. With the
    current technology available there is little reason to implement a GUI interface
    (of any complexity) in HMTL/Browser. It can still be used what it was originally
    intended and it does that well.

    "Michael Gautier" <gautier_michael@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >With the cross platform concerns and your feedback I am recommending Java.
    >The question I have is what would be my fallback position if the offline
    >requirement is taken off the table?
    >
    >
    >
    >"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d75e193$1@10.1.10.29...
    >>
    >> Michael. If client cross platform is the requirement w/ offline then

    you
    >> are limited to Java and maybe Flash (I don't know how well Flash works

    >'offline'
    >> - depends on what you need to do). .Net on the client (other than serving
    >> up HTML) is a long way off on any other 'mainstream' platform - and there
    >> is no assurance to their compatibility level (past experience says it

    is
    >> not good).
    >>
    >> I would say is that if you really understand .Net technology then the

    Java
    >> curve will not be that great. I would say less than Flash. As for Java
    >> and Java applets - if you code properly the code can be 99% the same -

    we
    >> are doing it. We switched from Applet housed to Application in about

    an
    >> hour. As for offline capability - Hope that isn't included in 2-3 months.
    >> I think you said not.
    >>
    >> If you have any server side requirements, while Flash can create cool

    UIs,
    >> Flash may not be the best choice if you want to do good OO coding. This
    >> may not be an issue for you or is something you are willing to risk.
    >>
    >> At one of my clients - our Java client just runs on XP while VB clients

    >are
    >> still being tested and bugs worked out.
    >>
    >> You are at a difficult point. It is very difficult to pick technologies
    >> without a good deal of experience with them. Seems most of your [current]
    >> technology knowledge is mostly WebForms. And since that is your knowledge
    >> area, you are leaning towards that and that is not good.
    >>
    >> Mark
    >>
    >> "Michael Gautier" <vb@vb.com> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many

    >> years
    >> >of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
    >> >
    >> >There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
    >> >application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline

    >requirements,
    >> >I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,

    >the
    >> >following matrix was proposed:
    >> >
    >> > WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
    >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >> >Cross Platform X X X X
    >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >> >Offline X X X
    >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >> >Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
    >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >> >Consistency N/A ? X X X
    >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >> >Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
    >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >> >Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
    >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >> >Learning Curve Moderate High High
    >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    >> >
    >> >Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The

    >predetermined
    >> >delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have

    been
    >> >slated for development. This would compete against an existing product

    >that
    >> >is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want

    to
    >> beat
    >> >out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and

    >was
    >> >to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are

    >acceptable
    >> >tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that

    >Java
    >> >or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
    >> >
    >> >My questions:
    >> >
    >> >1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
    >> >2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the

    >customer's
    >> >desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case.

    The
    >> >decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
    >> >3. Would anyone do anything differently?
    >> >
    >> >I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank

    you
    >> >in advance.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >

    >>

    >
    >



  10. #10
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology


    Java on the client has 'failed' only due to FUD, misuse and misunderstanding.
    Many places are using Java successfully on the client. We are. And in
    doing so we have not limited ourselves or our clients to Windows on the desktop
    or the server. I don't think it has failed on the client. I think it is
    underused. I see this as an opportunity. Especially since the Linux use
    is on the rise. As the IT departments begin to use it more and more on the
    server then they will see how easy it is and be able to implement it on the
    desktop. Lastly, I see no reason to learn 2 major development platforms
    (ie Java and .Net) when one will do very well for both and is not limited
    by hardware. Java has only 'shined' on the server because it will run on
    any platform, isn't as difficult as C/C++ and the servers-side is still very
    diverse.

    Lotus Notes is a very good tool. But typically it is misused (In the same
    way VB has been). I am glad to see IBM finally intergrate it with its other
    products (DB2/Websphere). Replication is a major plus for LN. But then,
    as Dan said, you will have to deal with other major issues.

    What really do you need to do 'offline'?



    solex <solex@nowhere.com> wrote:
    >Michael,
    >
    >I don't mean to push Lotus Notes but it is on just about all the major
    >platforms including but not limited to: Windows, Linux, AS400, Solaris.
    >
    >In terms of offline capabilities Lotus Notes is the only software that I


    >know of that supports replication effectively. Although Oracle has/had


    >Mobile Objects with Oracle Lite as does Microsoft Access, they have not


    >been doing replication nearly as long a Lotus, although they might be
    >something to look into. A downside to Lotus is that it is next to
    >impossible to do complex relational type operations, for instance
    >complex reports.
    >
    >Lotus Notes supports JAVA as a development language and is J2EE so if
    >JAVA is a consideration you might want to consider Lotus Notes as an
    >application server, I cannot comment on the scaleability.
    >
    >Also you probably should not compare Lotus to Oracle or Novell as they
    >are completely different animials in this sense.
    >
    >It has been my experience that no matter what your requirements are for


    >a development environment, choosing just one tool is next to impossible.


    > You will need to choose the tools that are appropriate to do the job


    >and integrate.
    >
    >Also keep in mind that JAVA on the desktop has virtually failed (in my
    >opinion only!) with the exception of some tools and IDE's. It appears
    >that the server is where JAVA shines.
    >
    >Good Luck!
    >Dan
    >
    >Michael Gautier wrote:
    >> At my shop there are three contingents, Microsoft, Java and Mainframe.

    The
    >> Mainframe has upgraded their systems and is capable of running Java so

    there
    >> is an interest in bringing the technology expertise in (as cheaply as
    >> possible). Additionally, you have infrastructure folks that want to move
    >> everything to Linux, but the Microsoft Application Developers are holding
    >> them back. So there are political as well as technical aspects that might
    >> rule out Lotus in the short term. Although, getting rid of Exchange might

    be
    >> tempting, but then you have Oracle versus Lotus, versus Novell. However,

    I
    >> am intrigued by the native offline capabilities. I guess it may depend

    on
    >> how long it would take to develop it in Java versus learning how to take
    >> advantage of it in Lotus. At present offline considerations are pushing
    >> things in the direction of a desktop client, but I would have to figure

    out
    >> how important offline capabilities are (basic versus advanced
    >> functionality). Thanks for the head up though. If you are aware of any

    other
    >> packages that offer offline capabilities, I would appreciate it.
    >>
    >>
    >> "solex" <solex@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:3d761e02$1@10.1.10.29...
    >>
    >>>Michael,
    >>>I have no idea of your application design but have you looked at Lotus
    >>>Notes, for straight data entry it is really easy to deploy. It will
    >>>statisfy your Offline needs natively and is cross platform. Deployment
    >>>will require a lotus notes client, but client applications are
    >>>automatically updated when changes are made to the server application.
    >>>
    >>>Dan
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Michael Gautier wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many
    >>>

    >> years
    >>
    >>>>of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
    >>>>
    >>>>There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
    >>>>application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline
    >>>

    >> requirements,
    >>
    >>>>I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,
    >>>

    >> the
    >>
    >>>>following matrix was proposed:
    >>>>
    >>>> WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
    >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>Cross Platform X X X X
    >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>Offline X X X
    >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
    >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>Consistency N/A ? X X X
    >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
    >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
    >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>Learning Curve Moderate High High
    >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>
    >>>>Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The
    >>>

    >> predetermined
    >>
    >>>>delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have
    >>>

    >> been
    >>
    >>>>slated for development. This would compete against an existing product
    >>>

    >> that
    >>
    >>>>is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want

    to
    >>>

    >> beat
    >>
    >>>>out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and
    >>>

    >> was
    >>
    >>>>to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are
    >>>

    >> acceptable
    >>
    >>>>tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that
    >>>

    >> Java
    >>
    >>>>or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
    >>>>
    >>>>My questions:
    >>>>
    >>>>1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
    >>>>2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the
    >>>

    >> customer's
    >>
    >>>>desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case.

    The
    >>>

    >>
    >>>>decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
    >>>>3. Would anyone do anything differently?
    >>>>
    >>>>I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank

    you
    >>>>in advance.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >



  11. #11
    solex Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology


    We must clarify to Michael that everything we say here is our opinion.
    While I do not necessarily agree with your opinion re: Java on the
    client, (based on some personal experience and alot of reading others
    opinions) it is great the you are able to implement it successfully.

    Here is an article I found on the comp.lang.java.advocacy news group
    that might be of interest:

    http://linux.sarang.net/ftp/mirror/d...whitepaper.pdf

    Regards,
    Dan

    MarkN wrote:
    > Java on the client has 'failed' only due to FUD, misuse and misunderstanding.
    > Many places are using Java successfully on the client. We are. And in
    > doing so we have not limited ourselves or our clients to Windows on the desktop
    > or the server. I don't think it has failed on the client. I think it is
    > underused. I see this as an opportunity. Especially since the Linux use
    > is on the rise. As the IT departments begin to use it more and more on the
    > server then they will see how easy it is and be able to implement it on the
    > desktop. Lastly, I see no reason to learn 2 major development platforms
    > (ie Java and .Net) when one will do very well for both and is not limited
    > by hardware. Java has only 'shined' on the server because it will run on
    > any platform, isn't as difficult as C/C++ and the servers-side is still very
    > diverse.
    >
    > Lotus Notes is a very good tool. But typically it is misused (In the same
    > way VB has been). I am glad to see IBM finally intergrate it with its other
    > products (DB2/Websphere). Replication is a major plus for LN. But then,
    > as Dan said, you will have to deal with other major issues.
    >
    > What really do you need to do 'offline'?
    >
    >
    >
    > solex <solex@nowhere.com> wrote:
    >
    >>Michael,
    >>
    >>I don't mean to push Lotus Notes but it is on just about all the major
    >>platforms including but not limited to: Windows, Linux, AS400, Solaris.
    >>
    >>In terms of offline capabilities Lotus Notes is the only software that I

    >
    >
    >>know of that supports replication effectively. Although Oracle has/had

    >
    >
    >>Mobile Objects with Oracle Lite as does Microsoft Access, they have not

    >
    >
    >>been doing replication nearly as long a Lotus, although they might be
    >>something to look into. A downside to Lotus is that it is next to
    >>impossible to do complex relational type operations, for instance
    >>complex reports.
    >>
    >>Lotus Notes supports JAVA as a development language and is J2EE so if
    >>JAVA is a consideration you might want to consider Lotus Notes as an
    >>application server, I cannot comment on the scaleability.
    >>
    >>Also you probably should not compare Lotus to Oracle or Novell as they
    >>are completely different animials in this sense.
    >>
    >>It has been my experience that no matter what your requirements are for

    >
    >
    >>a development environment, choosing just one tool is next to impossible.

    >
    >
    >> You will need to choose the tools that are appropriate to do the job

    >
    >
    >>and integrate.
    >>
    >>Also keep in mind that JAVA on the desktop has virtually failed (in my
    >>opinion only!) with the exception of some tools and IDE's. It appears
    >>that the server is where JAVA shines.
    >>
    >>Good Luck!
    >>Dan
    >>
    >>Michael Gautier wrote:
    >>
    >>>At my shop there are three contingents, Microsoft, Java and Mainframe.

    >>

    > The
    >
    >>>Mainframe has upgraded their systems and is capable of running Java so

    >>

    > there
    >
    >>>is an interest in bringing the technology expertise in (as cheaply as
    >>>possible). Additionally, you have infrastructure folks that want to move
    >>>everything to Linux, but the Microsoft Application Developers are holding
    >>>them back. So there are political as well as technical aspects that might
    >>>rule out Lotus in the short term. Although, getting rid of Exchange might

    >>

    > be
    >
    >>>tempting, but then you have Oracle versus Lotus, versus Novell. However,

    >>

    > I
    >
    >>>am intrigued by the native offline capabilities. I guess it may depend

    >>

    > on
    >
    >>>how long it would take to develop it in Java versus learning how to take
    >>>advantage of it in Lotus. At present offline considerations are pushing
    >>>things in the direction of a desktop client, but I would have to figure

    >>

    > out
    >
    >>>how important offline capabilities are (basic versus advanced
    >>>functionality). Thanks for the head up though. If you are aware of any

    >>

    > other
    >
    >>>packages that offer offline capabilities, I would appreciate it.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>"solex" <solex@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:3d761e02$1@10.1.10.29...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Michael,
    >>>>I have no idea of your application design but have you looked at Lotus
    >>>>Notes, for straight data entry it is really easy to deploy. It will
    >>>>statisfy your Offline needs natively and is cross platform. Deployment
    >>>>will require a lotus notes client, but client applications are
    >>>>automatically updated when changes are made to the server application.
    >>>>
    >>>>Dan
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>Michael Gautier wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your many
    >>>>
    >>>years
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data entry
    >>>>>application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline
    >>>>
    >>>requirements,
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,
    >>>>
    >>>the
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>following matrix was proposed:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
    >>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>Cross Platform X X X X
    >>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>Offline X X X
    >>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
    >>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>Consistency N/A ? X X X
    >>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
    >>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
    >>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>Learning Curve Moderate High High
    >>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The
    >>>>
    >>>predetermined
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have
    >>>>
    >>>been
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>slated for development. This would compete against an existing product
    >>>>
    >>>that
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want
    >>>>

    > to
    >
    >>>beat
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and
    >>>>
    >>>was
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more UIs.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are
    >>>>
    >>>acceptable
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that
    >>>>
    >>>Java
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>My questions:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
    >>>>>2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the
    >>>>
    >>>customer's
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case.
    >>>>

    > The
    >
    >>>>>decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
    >>>>>3. Would anyone do anything differently?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank
    >>>>

    > you
    >
    >>>>>in advance.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>

    >



  12. #12
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology


    Swing is not perfect. But most people have problems because they don't know
    what they are doing or try to code the same old way.

    There is an additional Java GUI API called SWT which is used in the Eclipse
    IDE. It is as quick as native and is cross platform.

    My point is that no matter what you use, do your best to use it on the client
    and server. Otherwise duplicate coding will occur or work arounds to deal
    with development platform differences. Sometimes this is necessary but why
    if it isn't necessary.


    solex <solex@nowhere.com> wrote:
    >
    >We must clarify to Michael that everything we say here is our opinion.
    >While I do not necessarily agree with your opinion re: Java on the
    >client, (based on some personal experience and alot of reading others
    >opinions) it is great the you are able to implement it successfully.
    >
    >Here is an article I found on the comp.lang.java.advocacy news group
    >that might be of interest:
    >
    >http://linux.sarang.net/ftp/mirror/d...whitepaper.pdf
    >
    >Regards,
    >Dan
    >
    >MarkN wrote:
    >> Java on the client has 'failed' only due to FUD, misuse and misunderstanding.
    >> Many places are using Java successfully on the client. We are. And

    in
    >> doing so we have not limited ourselves or our clients to Windows on the

    desktop
    >> or the server. I don't think it has failed on the client. I think it

    is
    >> underused. I see this as an opportunity. Especially since the Linux

    use
    >> is on the rise. As the IT departments begin to use it more and more on

    the
    >> server then they will see how easy it is and be able to implement it on

    the
    >> desktop. Lastly, I see no reason to learn 2 major development platforms
    >> (ie Java and .Net) when one will do very well for both and is not limited
    >> by hardware. Java has only 'shined' on the server because it will run

    on
    >> any platform, isn't as difficult as C/C++ and the servers-side is still

    very
    >> diverse.
    >>
    >> Lotus Notes is a very good tool. But typically it is misused (In the

    same
    >> way VB has been). I am glad to see IBM finally intergrate it with its

    other
    >> products (DB2/Websphere). Replication is a major plus for LN. But then,
    >> as Dan said, you will have to deal with other major issues.
    >>
    >> What really do you need to do 'offline'?
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> solex <solex@nowhere.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Michael,
    >>>
    >>>I don't mean to push Lotus Notes but it is on just about all the major


    >>>platforms including but not limited to: Windows, Linux, AS400, Solaris.
    >>>
    >>>In terms of offline capabilities Lotus Notes is the only software that

    I
    >>
    >>
    >>>know of that supports replication effectively. Although Oracle has/had

    >>
    >>
    >>>Mobile Objects with Oracle Lite as does Microsoft Access, they have not

    >>
    >>
    >>>been doing replication nearly as long a Lotus, although they might be


    >>>something to look into. A downside to Lotus is that it is next to
    >>>impossible to do complex relational type operations, for instance
    >>>complex reports.
    >>>
    >>>Lotus Notes supports JAVA as a development language and is J2EE so if


    >>>JAVA is a consideration you might want to consider Lotus Notes as an
    >>>application server, I cannot comment on the scaleability.
    >>>
    >>>Also you probably should not compare Lotus to Oracle or Novell as they


    >>>are completely different animials in this sense.
    >>>
    >>>It has been my experience that no matter what your requirements are for

    >>
    >>
    >>>a development environment, choosing just one tool is next to impossible.

    >>
    >>
    >>> You will need to choose the tools that are appropriate to do the job

    >>
    >>
    >>>and integrate.
    >>>
    >>>Also keep in mind that JAVA on the desktop has virtually failed (in my


    >>>opinion only!) with the exception of some tools and IDE's. It appears


    >>>that the server is where JAVA shines.
    >>>
    >>>Good Luck!
    >>>Dan
    >>>
    >>>Michael Gautier wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>At my shop there are three contingents, Microsoft, Java and Mainframe.
    >>>

    >> The
    >>
    >>>>Mainframe has upgraded their systems and is capable of running Java so
    >>>

    >> there
    >>
    >>>>is an interest in bringing the technology expertise in (as cheaply as
    >>>>possible). Additionally, you have infrastructure folks that want to move
    >>>>everything to Linux, but the Microsoft Application Developers are holding
    >>>>them back. So there are political as well as technical aspects that might
    >>>>rule out Lotus in the short term. Although, getting rid of Exchange might
    >>>

    >> be
    >>
    >>>>tempting, but then you have Oracle versus Lotus, versus Novell. However,
    >>>

    >> I
    >>
    >>>>am intrigued by the native offline capabilities. I guess it may depend
    >>>

    >> on
    >>
    >>>>how long it would take to develop it in Java versus learning how to take
    >>>>advantage of it in Lotus. At present offline considerations are pushing
    >>>>things in the direction of a desktop client, but I would have to figure
    >>>

    >> out
    >>
    >>>>how important offline capabilities are (basic versus advanced
    >>>>functionality). Thanks for the head up though. If you are aware of any
    >>>

    >> other
    >>
    >>>>packages that offer offline capabilities, I would appreciate it.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>"solex" <solex@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:3d761e02$1@10.1.10.29...
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>Michael,
    >>>>>I have no idea of your application design but have you looked at Lotus
    >>>>>Notes, for straight data entry it is really easy to deploy. It will
    >>>>>statisfy your Offline needs natively and is cross platform. Deployment
    >>>>>will require a lotus notes client, but client applications are
    >>>>>automatically updated when changes are made to the server application.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Dan
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Michael Gautier wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your

    many
    >>>>>
    >>>>years
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>>of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data

    entry
    >>>>>>application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline
    >>>>>
    >>>>requirements,
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>>I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,
    >>>>>
    >>>>the
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>>following matrix was proposed:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
    >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>>Cross Platform X X X X
    >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>>Offline X X X
    >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>>Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
    >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>>Consistency N/A ? X X X
    >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>>Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
    >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>>Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
    >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>>Learning Curve Moderate High High
    >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The
    >>>>>
    >>>>predetermined
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>>delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have
    >>>>>
    >>>>been
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>>slated for development. This would compete against an existing product
    >>>>>
    >>>>that
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>>is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want
    >>>>>

    >> to
    >>
    >>>>beat
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>>out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable

    and
    >>>>>
    >>>>was
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>>to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more

    UIs.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are
    >>>>>
    >>>>acceptable
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>>tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that
    >>>>>
    >>>>Java
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>>or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>My questions:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
    >>>>>>2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the
    >>>>>
    >>>>customer's
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>>desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case.
    >>>>>

    >> The
    >>
    >>>>>>decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
    >>>>>>3. Would anyone do anything differently?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank
    >>>>>

    >> you
    >>
    >>>>>>in advance.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>

    >>

    >



  13. #13
    Steve Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology


    Flash MX is developing into a very powerful tool.

    One problem with using Java applets/plugins is that they can tend to be a
    bit sluggish, and in a nutshell, they don't have much "flash". ;]

    Flash has much closer ties to XML now for handling data access. This is an
    arena that I am just getting started with, but you can do just about anything
    you'd ever want from a data-meets-user application in Flash as you can in
    other platforms. It is fully object oriented, but be prepared for a *completely*
    different programming experience. For a starter, Flash does *no* syntax checking,
    so if you're a relatively undisciplined coder you could be in for a pretty
    rough ride. Flash won't give you compiler errors, or even run-time errors,
    it just skips whatever it doesn't understand. Your first project should be
    an in-movie debugger window.

    Basically everything you'll need to know about developing "applications"
    in Flash is covered very well in two books published by Macromedia. Beginner
    and Advanced Flash.

    Benefits: *Very* rich user interface. Completely portable with a ridiculously
    small runtime plug-in that installs in seconds. Can be hosted on a local
    machine using a couple different techniques.

    Risks: Often times obtuse & unforgiving development environment.

    Steve.


  14. #14
    Michael Gautier Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology

    What is the typical development tactic for Swing (or SWT)? Do you open a
    Java Editor and start drag and drop or are the Swing forms and element
    composed non visually?

    What are the best tools for Java Client development and what are the
    tradeoffs?


    "MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d7776e0$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > Swing is not perfect. But most people have problems because they don't

    know
    > what they are doing or try to code the same old way.
    >
    > There is an additional Java GUI API called SWT which is used in the

    Eclipse
    > IDE. It is as quick as native and is cross platform.
    >
    > My point is that no matter what you use, do your best to use it on the

    client
    > and server. Otherwise duplicate coding will occur or work arounds to deal
    > with development platform differences. Sometimes this is necessary but

    why
    > if it isn't necessary.
    >
    >
    > solex <solex@nowhere.com> wrote:
    > >
    > >We must clarify to Michael that everything we say here is our opinion.
    > >While I do not necessarily agree with your opinion re: Java on the
    > >client, (based on some personal experience and alot of reading others
    > >opinions) it is great the you are able to implement it successfully.
    > >
    > >Here is an article I found on the comp.lang.java.advocacy news group
    > >that might be of interest:
    > >

    >
    >http://linux.sarang.net/ftp/mirror/d...qt-vs-java-whi

    tepaper.pdf
    > >
    > >Regards,
    > >Dan
    > >
    > >MarkN wrote:
    > >> Java on the client has 'failed' only due to FUD, misuse and

    misunderstanding.
    > >> Many places are using Java successfully on the client. We are. And

    > in
    > >> doing so we have not limited ourselves or our clients to Windows on the

    > desktop
    > >> or the server. I don't think it has failed on the client. I think it

    > is
    > >> underused. I see this as an opportunity. Especially since the Linux

    > use
    > >> is on the rise. As the IT departments begin to use it more and more on

    > the
    > >> server then they will see how easy it is and be able to implement it on

    > the
    > >> desktop. Lastly, I see no reason to learn 2 major development

    platforms
    > >> (ie Java and .Net) when one will do very well for both and is not

    limited
    > >> by hardware. Java has only 'shined' on the server because it will run

    > on
    > >> any platform, isn't as difficult as C/C++ and the servers-side is still

    > very
    > >> diverse.
    > >>
    > >> Lotus Notes is a very good tool. But typically it is misused (In the

    > same
    > >> way VB has been). I am glad to see IBM finally intergrate it with its

    > other
    > >> products (DB2/Websphere). Replication is a major plus for LN. But

    then,
    > >> as Dan said, you will have to deal with other major issues.
    > >>
    > >> What really do you need to do 'offline'?
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> solex <solex@nowhere.com> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>>Michael,
    > >>>
    > >>>I don't mean to push Lotus Notes but it is on just about all the major

    >
    > >>>platforms including but not limited to: Windows, Linux, AS400, Solaris.
    > >>>
    > >>>In terms of offline capabilities Lotus Notes is the only software that

    > I
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>>know of that supports replication effectively. Although Oracle has/had
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>>Mobile Objects with Oracle Lite as does Microsoft Access, they have not
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>>been doing replication nearly as long a Lotus, although they might be

    >
    > >>>something to look into. A downside to Lotus is that it is next to
    > >>>impossible to do complex relational type operations, for instance
    > >>>complex reports.
    > >>>
    > >>>Lotus Notes supports JAVA as a development language and is J2EE so if

    >
    > >>>JAVA is a consideration you might want to consider Lotus Notes as an
    > >>>application server, I cannot comment on the scaleability.
    > >>>
    > >>>Also you probably should not compare Lotus to Oracle or Novell as they

    >
    > >>>are completely different animials in this sense.
    > >>>
    > >>>It has been my experience that no matter what your requirements are for
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>>a development environment, choosing just one tool is next to

    impossible.
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>> You will need to choose the tools that are appropriate to do the job
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>>and integrate.
    > >>>
    > >>>Also keep in mind that JAVA on the desktop has virtually failed (in my

    >
    > >>>opinion only!) with the exception of some tools and IDE's. It appears

    >
    > >>>that the server is where JAVA shines.
    > >>>
    > >>>Good Luck!
    > >>>Dan
    > >>>
    > >>>Michael Gautier wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>>>At my shop there are three contingents, Microsoft, Java and Mainframe.
    > >>>
    > >> The
    > >>
    > >>>>Mainframe has upgraded their systems and is capable of running Java so
    > >>>
    > >> there
    > >>
    > >>>>is an interest in bringing the technology expertise in (as cheaply as
    > >>>>possible). Additionally, you have infrastructure folks that want to

    move
    > >>>>everything to Linux, but the Microsoft Application Developers are

    holding
    > >>>>them back. So there are political as well as technical aspects that

    might
    > >>>>rule out Lotus in the short term. Although, getting rid of Exchange

    might
    > >>>
    > >> be
    > >>
    > >>>>tempting, but then you have Oracle versus Lotus, versus Novell.

    However,
    > >>>
    > >> I
    > >>
    > >>>>am intrigued by the native offline capabilities. I guess it may depend
    > >>>
    > >> on
    > >>
    > >>>>how long it would take to develop it in Java versus learning how to

    take
    > >>>>advantage of it in Lotus. At present offline considerations are

    pushing
    > >>>>things in the direction of a desktop client, but I would have to

    figure
    > >>>
    > >> out
    > >>
    > >>>>how important offline capabilities are (basic versus advanced
    > >>>>functionality). Thanks for the head up though. If you are aware of any
    > >>>
    > >> other
    > >>
    > >>>>packages that offer offline capabilities, I would appreciate it.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>"solex" <solex@nowhere.com> wrote in message

    news:3d761e02$1@10.1.10.29...
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>Michael,
    > >>>>>I have no idea of your application design but have you looked at

    Lotus
    > >>>>>Notes, for straight data entry it is really easy to deploy. It will
    > >>>>>statisfy your Offline needs natively and is cross platform.

    Deployment
    > >>>>>will require a lotus notes client, but client applications are
    > >>>>>automatically updated when changes are made to the server

    application.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>>Dan
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>>Michael Gautier wrote:
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>>>Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your

    > many
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>years
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>>of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data

    > entry
    > >>>>>>application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>requirements,
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>>I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new

    requirements,
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>the
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>>following matrix was proposed:
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
    > >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >>>>>>Cross Platform X X X X
    > >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >>>>>>Offline X X X
    > >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >>>>>>Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
    > >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >>>>>>Consistency N/A ? X X X
    > >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >>>>>>Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
    > >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >>>>>>Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
    > >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >>>>>>Learning Curve Moderate High High
    > >>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>predetermined
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>>delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>been
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>>slated for development. This would compete against an existing

    product
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>that
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>>is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want
    > >>>>>
    > >> to
    > >>
    > >>>>beat
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>>out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable

    > and
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>was
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>>to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more

    > UIs.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>acceptable
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>>tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense

    that
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>Java
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>>or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>My questions:
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the

    technologies?
    > >>>>>>2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>customer's
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>>desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case.
    > >>>>>
    > >> The
    > >>
    > >>>>>>decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
    > >>>>>>3. Would anyone do anything differently?
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank
    > >>>>>
    > >> you
    > >>
    > >>>>>>in advance.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>

    > >

    >




  15. #15
    Michael Gautier Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology

    Problem is that they (and I) have already invested in .NET and we have
    existing code we wanted to reuse on the project going forward. The main PC
    development language there is VB6 on NT 4. It was easier to move into .NET
    than it was to do anything else. Also, when the project was first
    communicated to me I was told there would be three phases, 1). Batch System
    2) Web System 3) Offline Capable System. The people supervising me only know
    mainframe and so this was their first major foray into PC based technology
    solutions on the Web and Backend. They were more interested in the
    technology for the backend than the web (but thier customers wanted the
    web). So here we are, on the cusp of web development (1 - 2 months away) and
    the boss is thinking of developing 1 UI that is offline capable and cross
    platform rather than having a cross platform web system and a windows
    specific offline system. Change of strategy just happened (all of this
    change is subject to executive approval though).

    The thing is, there were no indications that things would develop this way
    because until now, the mindset was browser based and since the shop was
    invested in asp, vb6 and now .NET, the thoughts weren't there.

    I guess I am looking for a fallback position that would be mutually
    advantageous to the client and myself. The client needs something developed
    rather quickly, we have all this .NET stuff developed (cost money in hourly
    wages) and most of my experience is with Windows/Web based technologies. I
    have skills and techniques in picking up new technologies (fast), but I
    guess I am trying to figure out the best direction, dump .NET after doing
    for such a while or do Java regardless of the decisions? Personally, my
    manager is leaning towards Flash (he's hooked).

    So MarkN, anyone, what do you think. I am asking you because I have biases
    that cloud my thinking as of the moment.


    "MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d773ef6$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > You could fall back to your current knowledge area. That still limits the
    > serverside to one platform. But if this is not a concern for you or the
    > client (read: they've got lots of $) then go ahead. I wouldn't but that
    > is the way I feel.
    >
    > The thing is even if they take it off the table and you go back to a

    browser
    > only implementation then you are stuck or will end up with 2 interfaces if
    > they change their minds. But clients never change their minds. With the
    > current technology available there is little reason to implement a GUI

    interface
    > (of any complexity) in HMTL/Browser. It can still be used what it was

    originally
    > intended and it does that well.
    >
    > "Michael Gautier" <gautier_michael@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > >With the cross platform concerns and your feedback I am recommending

    Java.
    > >The question I have is what would be my fallback position if the offline
    > >requirement is taken off the table?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d75e193$1@10.1.10.29...
    > >>
    > >> Michael. If client cross platform is the requirement w/ offline then

    > you
    > >> are limited to Java and maybe Flash (I don't know how well Flash works

    > >'offline'
    > >> - depends on what you need to do). .Net on the client (other than

    serving
    > >> up HTML) is a long way off on any other 'mainstream' platform - and

    there
    > >> is no assurance to their compatibility level (past experience says it

    > is
    > >> not good).
    > >>
    > >> I would say is that if you really understand .Net technology then the

    > Java
    > >> curve will not be that great. I would say less than Flash. As for

    Java
    > >> and Java applets - if you code properly the code can be 99% the same -

    > we
    > >> are doing it. We switched from Applet housed to Application in about

    > an
    > >> hour. As for offline capability - Hope that isn't included in 2-3

    months.
    > >> I think you said not.
    > >>
    > >> If you have any server side requirements, while Flash can create cool

    > UIs,
    > >> Flash may not be the best choice if you want to do good OO coding.

    This
    > >> may not be an issue for you or is something you are willing to risk.
    > >>
    > >> At one of my clients - our Java client just runs on XP while VB clients

    > >are
    > >> still being tested and bugs worked out.
    > >>
    > >> You are at a difficult point. It is very difficult to pick

    technologies
    > >> without a good deal of experience with them. Seems most of your

    [current]
    > >> technology knowledge is mostly WebForms. And since that is your

    knowledge
    > >> area, you are leaning towards that and that is not good.
    > >>
    > >> Mark
    > >>
    > >> "Michael Gautier" <vb@vb.com> wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> >Fellow programmer's, I would appreciate your opinions based on your

    many
    > >> years
    > >> >of experience about client technologies and technical strategy.
    > >> >
    > >> >There is a requirement for a cross platform, offline capable, data

    entry
    > >> >application. Before I knew of the cross platform and offline

    > >requirements,
    > >> >I was pushing Windows Forms or Web Forms. Due to the new requirements,

    > >the
    > >> >following matrix was proposed:
    > >> >
    > >> > WinForms | WebForms | Flash | Java | Java Applet
    > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >> >Cross Platform X X X X
    > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >> >Offline X X X
    > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >> >Robust Data Entry X ? X X X
    > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >> >Consistency N/A ? X X X
    > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >> >Deployment .Net Client N/A Plugin JRE Plugin
    > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >> >Experience High Highest Low Lowest Lowest
    > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >> >Learning Curve Moderate High High
    > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------
    > >> >
    > >> >Basically, he is leaning towards Flash first and Java Second. The

    > >predetermined
    > >> >delivery date is March 2003 (They wanted January). 2 - 3 months have

    > been
    > >> >slated for development. This would compete against an existing product

    > >that
    > >> >is a pre-.NET Win32 desktop application from a competitor. They want

    > to
    > >> beat
    > >> >out the competition by getting in Mac users. Offline is debateable and

    > >was
    > >> >to be put off until the next phase but they didn't want two or more

    UIs.
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >My recommendation is ASP.NET if rich data entry and offline are

    > >acceptable
    > >> >tradeoffs. Flash would come next. However, I am getting the sense that

    > >Java
    > >> >or Flash would be the best tool for the job.
    > >> >
    > >> >My questions:
    > >> >
    > >> >1. Am I missing anything related to the breakdown of the technologies?
    > >> >2. Is there a way to maintain the .NET technologies and achieve the

    > >customer's
    > >> >desires? I am thinking, no, but I have to double check just in case.

    > The
    > >> >decision will be based off of all relevant parameters.
    > >> >3. Would anyone do anything differently?
    > >> >
    > >> >I will post this in a few areas to get different perspectives. Thank

    > you
    > >> >in advance.
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >>

    > >
    > >

    >




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