Recommending a technology: Results


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Thread: Recommending a technology: Results

  1. #1
    Michael Gautier Guest

    Recommending a technology: Results

    I recommended Java. We met with a Java expert and my boss was sold on Java.
    He decided that function was more important than form. So we saw a demo of
    an application this guy did in Java (Java WebStart is pretty cool). It was
    an app just like ours. Here's what happened:

    After the Java Expert left, my boss and I came to the conclusion that it was
    better to have a robust code platform than a powerful UI technology. My
    boss's boss came in, saw the UI on the Java app (standard UI by the way,
    equivalent to any desktop VB app) and said, "If our customers saw that, they
    would leave the room." My boss changed his tune and Flash became the
    recommendation (he didn't tell his boss that he supported Java). While I
    came to the same conclusions as my boss's boss a few weeks ago, I sided with
    Java (best IT political decision) rather than Flash (best Business political
    decision) since it seemed more practical.

    I even recommended that if they go with Java, that they either replace me or
    bring the Java expert on board. My boss started this rant about funding . .
    .. but that it may be possible for the guy to do limited work with me. Since
    the Flash decision, I have no help (most pure designers don't know how to
    code, yet). Does anyone have any idea how this will affect my career if the
    application succeeds? Will I suffer penalties for not doing (insert your
    technology here) more traditional things for a year? I welcome all opinions
    on this, as it will help give some perspective on coping with this change
    from a pure Microsoft dude to who knows what.

    I guess image is everything.








  2. #2
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology: Results


    I would say that .Net is no less robust than Java. It may not be as proven.
    Also, Java is no less a powerful UI tool than .Net. You probably had a
    bad example of a Java UI. Usually the issue is that the developer uses the
    standard look and feel. There really is some good stuff out there (http://www.compiere.org/looks/demo.html
    http://www.l2fprod.com). Again, Flash is cool but then you have to integrate
    it with a backside. They have worked on that but... . Many people have
    seen the the Eclipse IDE and had no clue it was Java. Most of the time,
    customers don't care that much about the GUI looks - as long as it works.
    Developers usually care more and think the users do. We are using the standard
    Java L and F and not one user has complained - and we have alot (users and
    complainers ). I did another app for another company - they didn't like
    the standard L and F. A couple of lines of code and I popped in the Windows
    one - they loved it.

    Also, I would say the choice was function over feature not form. Most VB
    code and any of the .Net and some Java code too that I have have seen is
    in bad form. (I know that is not what you meant)

    I think it will help your career. Having a wider knowledge base will help.
    It will make you more marketable. There really is no room in this market
    for single focus developers. Plus, it will help you make better decisions
    in the future - if you have a good experience. Do keep up on your .Net and
    expand your knowledge of it. And if you have time, check out a few more
    technologies.

    I do think you will need a mentor if you are going to do the Java. Truthfully,
    I think those using .Net should have one too. It just is a little easier
    to whip stuff out with .Net - not good stuff - but stuff (Yeah, I know it
    will look pretty and will take 2 seconds). Actually I can whip Java stuff
    out too with the right IDE.

    As for funding - it is a pay now or pay later. It you don't get some architectual
    help now (with .Net or Java) - they will be paying alot more later.

    Hopefully things will go well for you. It sounds like the road my be a little
    rough ahead for you all. My recommendation is that they outsource it. It
    doesn't seem like anyone has close to enough knowledge and experience to
    pull off what they want/need to do (Sorry if this offends). Keep us posted.
    I will help where I can with suggestions and answering questions. If you
    want, you can email me. If your email is correct and you want, I can shoot
    you my email address.

    You've had a difficult decision to make and your background made you want
    to choose what you knew as opposed to the best tool for the job. I think
    you choose wisely.


    "Michael Gautier" <gautier_michael@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >I recommended Java. We met with a Java expert and my boss was sold on Java.
    >He decided that function was more important than form. So we saw a demo

    of
    >an application this guy did in Java (Java WebStart is pretty cool). It was
    >an app just like ours. Here's what happened:
    >
    >After the Java Expert left, my boss and I came to the conclusion that it

    was
    >better to have a robust code platform than a powerful UI technology. My
    >boss's boss came in, saw the UI on the Java app (standard UI by the way,
    >equivalent to any desktop VB app) and said, "If our customers saw that,

    they
    >would leave the room." My boss changed his tune and Flash became the
    >recommendation (he didn't tell his boss that he supported Java). While I
    >came to the same conclusions as my boss's boss a few weeks ago, I sided

    with
    >Java (best IT political decision) rather than Flash (best Business political
    >decision) since it seemed more practical.
    >
    >I even recommended that if they go with Java, that they either replace me

    or
    >bring the Java expert on board. My boss started this rant about funding

    . .
    >.. but that it may be possible for the guy to do limited work with me. Since
    >the Flash decision, I have no help (most pure designers don't know how to
    >code, yet). Does anyone have any idea how this will affect my career if

    the
    >application succeeds? Will I suffer penalties for not doing (insert your
    >technology here) more traditional things for a year? I welcome all opinions
    >on this, as it will help give some perspective on coping with this change
    >from a pure Microsoft dude to who knows what.
    >
    >I guess image is everything.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >



  3. #3
    Michael Gautier Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology: Results

    Thanks.

    I agree with all of your assessments (bumpy road ahead, make better
    decisions in future). I will forward the links to my boss. I think the
    skinning technology is very promising. He asked me this morning about Flash
    sites that use forms, I said I didn't know of any. He prompting me for
    prices of Macromedia products, but I think there may still be time for him
    to change his own mind when he realizes how unproven, Flash is in
    applications. I do get a sense that my personal idealism in technology may
    be fading, and perhaps this is just a visible sign that I am really
    beginning to understand the concept of right tool for the job.

    Oddly enough it appears that the right tool concept may not be a purely
    technical consideration but has political influences as well. For example,
    if the application gets developed in Flash, then the expertise created can
    only be applied in a UI context whereas if you go Java, then you can grow
    that into server side stuff as well. Java would seem the best technical
    solution overall because it would encompass a lot more (ROI) whereas Flash
    has more short term value.

    As far as outsourcing, well, I am the outsource. I am this particular
    manager's sole consultant on this project and they say they can't afford
    anymore. My contract comes up in December (I've been renewed twice so far
    and they expect another), so I was considering either trying something else
    so they could get someone more appropriate or staying and embracing the
    challenge. It looks like I will stay, but time will tell.



    "MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d89af71$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > I would say that .Net is no less robust than Java. It may not be as

    proven.
    > Also, Java is no less a powerful UI tool than .Net. You probably had a
    > bad example of a Java UI. Usually the issue is that the developer uses

    the
    > standard look and feel. There really is some good stuff out there

    (http://www.compiere.org/looks/demo.html
    > http://www.l2fprod.com). Again, Flash is cool but then you have to

    integrate
    > it with a backside. They have worked on that but... . Many people have
    > seen the the Eclipse IDE and had no clue it was Java. Most of the time,
    > customers don't care that much about the GUI looks - as long as it works.
    > Developers usually care more and think the users do. We are using the

    standard
    > Java L and F and not one user has complained - and we have alot (users and
    > complainers ). I did another app for another company - they didn't

    like
    > the standard L and F. A couple of lines of code and I popped in the

    Windows
    > one - they loved it.
    >
    > Also, I would say the choice was function over feature not form. Most VB
    > code and any of the .Net and some Java code too that I have have seen is
    > in bad form. (I know that is not what you meant)
    >
    > I think it will help your career. Having a wider knowledge base will

    help.
    > It will make you more marketable. There really is no room in this market
    > for single focus developers. Plus, it will help you make better decisions
    > in the future - if you have a good experience. Do keep up on your .Net

    and
    > expand your knowledge of it. And if you have time, check out a few more
    > technologies.
    >
    > I do think you will need a mentor if you are going to do the Java.

    Truthfully,
    > I think those using .Net should have one too. It just is a little easier
    > to whip stuff out with .Net - not good stuff - but stuff (Yeah, I know it
    > will look pretty and will take 2 seconds). Actually I can whip Java stuff
    > out too with the right IDE.
    >
    > As for funding - it is a pay now or pay later. It you don't get some

    architectual
    > help now (with .Net or Java) - they will be paying alot more later.
    >
    > Hopefully things will go well for you. It sounds like the road my be a

    little
    > rough ahead for you all. My recommendation is that they outsource it. It
    > doesn't seem like anyone has close to enough knowledge and experience to
    > pull off what they want/need to do (Sorry if this offends). Keep us

    posted.
    > I will help where I can with suggestions and answering questions. If you
    > want, you can email me. If your email is correct and you want, I can

    shoot
    > you my email address.
    >
    > You've had a difficult decision to make and your background made you want
    > to choose what you knew as opposed to the best tool for the job. I think
    > you choose wisely.
    >
    >
    > "Michael Gautier" <gautier_michael@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > >I recommended Java. We met with a Java expert and my boss was sold on

    Java.
    > >He decided that function was more important than form. So we saw a demo

    > of
    > >an application this guy did in Java (Java WebStart is pretty cool). It

    was
    > >an app just like ours. Here's what happened:
    > >
    > >After the Java Expert left, my boss and I came to the conclusion that it

    > was
    > >better to have a robust code platform than a powerful UI technology. My
    > >boss's boss came in, saw the UI on the Java app (standard UI by the way,
    > >equivalent to any desktop VB app) and said, "If our customers saw that,

    > they
    > >would leave the room." My boss changed his tune and Flash became the
    > >recommendation (he didn't tell his boss that he supported Java). While I
    > >came to the same conclusions as my boss's boss a few weeks ago, I sided

    > with
    > >Java (best IT political decision) rather than Flash (best Business

    political
    > >decision) since it seemed more practical.
    > >
    > >I even recommended that if they go with Java, that they either replace me

    > or
    > >bring the Java expert on board. My boss started this rant about funding

    > .
    > >.. but that it may be possible for the guy to do limited work with me.

    Since
    > >the Flash decision, I have no help (most pure designers don't know how to
    > >code, yet). Does anyone have any idea how this will affect my career if

    > the
    > >application succeeds? Will I suffer penalties for not doing (insert your
    > >technology here) more traditional things for a year? I welcome all

    opinions
    > >on this, as it will help give some perspective on coping with this change
    > >from a pure Microsoft dude to who knows what.
    > >
    > >I guess image is everything.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >




  4. #4
    Michael Gautier Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology: Results

    Email address is correct. My boss did think the default Java UI was
    acceptable. It was his boss that didn't. His boss doesn't appear to like
    Java so that may be apart of it as well. I played with Eclipse, but I may
    steer toward Forte if Java become the requirement. My boss particularly
    liked the part about some IDEs being free.

    Is there an opinion on Open IDEs versus, commercially sold?


    "MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d89af71$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > I would say that .Net is no less robust than Java. It may not be as

    proven.
    > Also, Java is no less a powerful UI tool than .Net. You probably had a
    > bad example of a Java UI. Usually the issue is that the developer uses

    the
    > standard look and feel. There really is some good stuff out there

    (http://www.compiere.org/looks/demo.html
    > http://www.l2fprod.com). Again, Flash is cool but then you have to

    integrate
    > it with a backside. They have worked on that but... . Many people have
    > seen the the Eclipse IDE and had no clue it was Java. Most of the time,
    > customers don't care that much about the GUI looks - as long as it works.
    > Developers usually care more and think the users do. We are using the

    standard
    > Java L and F and not one user has complained - and we have alot (users and
    > complainers ). I did another app for another company - they didn't

    like
    > the standard L and F. A couple of lines of code and I popped in the

    Windows
    > one - they loved it.
    >
    > Also, I would say the choice was function over feature not form. Most VB
    > code and any of the .Net and some Java code too that I have have seen is
    > in bad form. (I know that is not what you meant)
    >
    > I think it will help your career. Having a wider knowledge base will

    help.
    > It will make you more marketable. There really is no room in this market
    > for single focus developers. Plus, it will help you make better decisions
    > in the future - if you have a good experience. Do keep up on your .Net

    and
    > expand your knowledge of it. And if you have time, check out a few more
    > technologies.
    >
    > I do think you will need a mentor if you are going to do the Java.

    Truthfully,
    > I think those using .Net should have one too. It just is a little easier
    > to whip stuff out with .Net - not good stuff - but stuff (Yeah, I know it
    > will look pretty and will take 2 seconds). Actually I can whip Java stuff
    > out too with the right IDE.
    >
    > As for funding - it is a pay now or pay later. It you don't get some

    architectual
    > help now (with .Net or Java) - they will be paying alot more later.
    >
    > Hopefully things will go well for you. It sounds like the road my be a

    little
    > rough ahead for you all. My recommendation is that they outsource it. It
    > doesn't seem like anyone has close to enough knowledge and experience to
    > pull off what they want/need to do (Sorry if this offends). Keep us

    posted.
    > I will help where I can with suggestions and answering questions. If you
    > want, you can email me. If your email is correct and you want, I can

    shoot
    > you my email address.
    >
    > You've had a difficult decision to make and your background made you want
    > to choose what you knew as opposed to the best tool for the job. I think
    > you choose wisely.
    >
    >
    > "Michael Gautier" <gautier_michael@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > >I recommended Java. We met with a Java expert and my boss was sold on

    Java.
    > >He decided that function was more important than form. So we saw a demo

    > of
    > >an application this guy did in Java (Java WebStart is pretty cool). It

    was
    > >an app just like ours. Here's what happened:
    > >
    > >After the Java Expert left, my boss and I came to the conclusion that it

    > was
    > >better to have a robust code platform than a powerful UI technology. My
    > >boss's boss came in, saw the UI on the Java app (standard UI by the way,
    > >equivalent to any desktop VB app) and said, "If our customers saw that,

    > they
    > >would leave the room." My boss changed his tune and Flash became the
    > >recommendation (he didn't tell his boss that he supported Java). While I
    > >came to the same conclusions as my boss's boss a few weeks ago, I sided

    > with
    > >Java (best IT political decision) rather than Flash (best Business

    political
    > >decision) since it seemed more practical.
    > >
    > >I even recommended that if they go with Java, that they either replace me

    > or
    > >bring the Java expert on board. My boss started this rant about funding

    > .
    > >.. but that it may be possible for the guy to do limited work with me.

    Since
    > >the Flash decision, I have no help (most pure designers don't know how to
    > >code, yet). Does anyone have any idea how this will affect my career if

    > the
    > >application succeeds? Will I suffer penalties for not doing (insert your
    > >technology here) more traditional things for a year? I welcome all

    opinions
    > >on this, as it will help give some perspective on coping with this change
    > >from a pure Microsoft dude to who knows what.
    > >
    > >I guess image is everything.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >




  5. #5
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology: Results


    You can get Netbeans which is an OSS version of Forte (less some functionality).
    Eclipse is an OSS version of WSAD.

    OSS can do it for you. You usually can piece things together. The purchase
    on usually puts it all together for you. I like WSAD very much. 5.0 is
    coming out this month. It is a very powerful tool and is much like VS.Net.
    (4.0.3 doesn't have a GUI builder because it is still a transition from
    VAJ. 5.0 will have one built in).

    If you don't mind hand coding SWT or Swing, Eclipse + plugins is perfectly
    fine. The built in refactoring, unit testing and AOP tools are great. (They
    do come in most other Java tools).

    "Michael Gautier" <gautier_michael@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >Email address is correct. My boss did think the default Java UI was
    >acceptable. It was his boss that didn't. His boss doesn't appear to like
    >Java so that may be apart of it as well. I played with Eclipse, but I may
    >steer toward Forte if Java become the requirement. My boss particularly
    >liked the part about some IDEs being free.
    >
    >Is there an opinion on Open IDEs versus, commercially sold?
    >
    >
    >"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d89af71$1@10.1.10.29...
    >>
    >> I would say that .Net is no less robust than Java. It may not be as

    >proven.
    >> Also, Java is no less a powerful UI tool than .Net. You probably had

    a
    >> bad example of a Java UI. Usually the issue is that the developer uses

    >the
    >> standard look and feel. There really is some good stuff out there

    >(http://www.compiere.org/looks/demo.html
    >> http://www.l2fprod.com). Again, Flash is cool but then you have to

    >integrate
    >> it with a backside. They have worked on that but... . Many people have
    >> seen the the Eclipse IDE and had no clue it was Java. Most of the time,
    >> customers don't care that much about the GUI looks - as long as it works.
    >> Developers usually care more and think the users do. We are using the

    >standard
    >> Java L and F and not one user has complained - and we have alot (users

    and
    >> complainers ). I did another app for another company - they didn't

    >like
    >> the standard L and F. A couple of lines of code and I popped in the

    >Windows
    >> one - they loved it.
    >>
    >> Also, I would say the choice was function over feature not form. Most

    VB
    >> code and any of the .Net and some Java code too that I have have seen

    is
    >> in bad form. (I know that is not what you meant)
    >>
    >> I think it will help your career. Having a wider knowledge base will

    >help.
    >> It will make you more marketable. There really is no room in this market
    >> for single focus developers. Plus, it will help you make better decisions
    >> in the future - if you have a good experience. Do keep up on your .Net

    >and
    >> expand your knowledge of it. And if you have time, check out a few more
    >> technologies.
    >>
    >> I do think you will need a mentor if you are going to do the Java.

    >Truthfully,
    >> I think those using .Net should have one too. It just is a little easier
    >> to whip stuff out with .Net - not good stuff - but stuff (Yeah, I know

    it
    >> will look pretty and will take 2 seconds). Actually I can whip Java stuff
    >> out too with the right IDE.
    >>
    >> As for funding - it is a pay now or pay later. It you don't get some

    >architectual
    >> help now (with .Net or Java) - they will be paying alot more later.
    >>
    >> Hopefully things will go well for you. It sounds like the road my be

    a
    >little
    >> rough ahead for you all. My recommendation is that they outsource it.

    It
    >> doesn't seem like anyone has close to enough knowledge and experience

    to
    >> pull off what they want/need to do (Sorry if this offends). Keep us

    >posted.
    >> I will help where I can with suggestions and answering questions. If

    you
    >> want, you can email me. If your email is correct and you want, I can

    >shoot
    >> you my email address.
    >>
    >> You've had a difficult decision to make and your background made you want
    >> to choose what you knew as opposed to the best tool for the job. I think
    >> you choose wisely.
    >>
    >>
    >> "Michael Gautier" <gautier_michael@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >> >I recommended Java. We met with a Java expert and my boss was sold on

    >Java.
    >> >He decided that function was more important than form. So we saw a demo

    >> of
    >> >an application this guy did in Java (Java WebStart is pretty cool). It

    >was
    >> >an app just like ours. Here's what happened:
    >> >
    >> >After the Java Expert left, my boss and I came to the conclusion that

    it
    >> was
    >> >better to have a robust code platform than a powerful UI technology.

    My
    >> >boss's boss came in, saw the UI on the Java app (standard UI by the way,
    >> >equivalent to any desktop VB app) and said, "If our customers saw that,

    >> they
    >> >would leave the room." My boss changed his tune and Flash became the
    >> >recommendation (he didn't tell his boss that he supported Java). While

    I
    >> >came to the same conclusions as my boss's boss a few weeks ago, I sided

    >> with
    >> >Java (best IT political decision) rather than Flash (best Business

    >political
    >> >decision) since it seemed more practical.
    >> >
    >> >I even recommended that if they go with Java, that they either replace

    me
    >> or
    >> >bring the Java expert on board. My boss started this rant about funding

    >> .
    >> >.. but that it may be possible for the guy to do limited work with me.

    >Since
    >> >the Flash decision, I have no help (most pure designers don't know how

    to
    >> >code, yet). Does anyone have any idea how this will affect my career

    if
    >> the
    >> >application succeeds? Will I suffer penalties for not doing (insert your
    >> >technology here) more traditional things for a year? I welcome all

    >opinions
    >> >on this, as it will help give some perspective on coping with this change
    >> >from a pure Microsoft dude to who knows what.
    >> >
    >> >I guess image is everything.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >

    >>

    >
    >



  6. #6
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology: Results


    Don't totally throw out your idealism. You have to fine the proper mix.
    I like Java but I will use .Net or even VB6/ASP. If someone wants to know
    what I like and I think then I will tell them.

    Being able to build the GUI(s)/Client and Server with the same technology
    will make for a better system.

    Embrace the challenge and stick with this project. There will be more ahead.
    If you don't, you won't grow. But since you are the only 'consultant' and
    your knowledge in this platform(Java) is limited you will need a mentor.
    Keep in touch. I will send an email to you.

    Mark

    "Michael Gautier" <gautier_michael@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >Thanks.
    >
    > I agree with all of your assessments (bumpy road ahead, make better
    >decisions in future). I will forward the links to my boss. I think the
    >skinning technology is very promising. He asked me this morning about Flash
    >sites that use forms, I said I didn't know of any. He prompting me for
    >prices of Macromedia products, but I think there may still be time for him
    >to change his own mind when he realizes how unproven, Flash is in
    >applications. I do get a sense that my personal idealism in technology may
    >be fading, and perhaps this is just a visible sign that I am really
    >beginning to understand the concept of right tool for the job.
    >
    > Oddly enough it appears that the right tool concept may not be a purely
    >technical consideration but has political influences as well. For example,
    >if the application gets developed in Flash, then the expertise created can
    >only be applied in a UI context whereas if you go Java, then you can grow
    >that into server side stuff as well. Java would seem the best technical
    >solution overall because it would encompass a lot more (ROI) whereas Flash
    >has more short term value.
    >
    >As far as outsourcing, well, I am the outsource. I am this particular
    >manager's sole consultant on this project and they say they can't afford
    >anymore. My contract comes up in December (I've been renewed twice so far
    >and they expect another), so I was considering either trying something else
    >so they could get someone more appropriate or staying and embracing the
    >challenge. It looks like I will stay, but time will tell.
    >
    >
    >
    >"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d89af71$1@10.1.10.29...
    >>
    >> I would say that .Net is no less robust than Java. It may not be as

    >proven.
    >> Also, Java is no less a powerful UI tool than .Net. You probably had

    a
    >> bad example of a Java UI. Usually the issue is that the developer uses

    >the
    >> standard look and feel. There really is some good stuff out there

    >(http://www.compiere.org/looks/demo.html
    >> http://www.l2fprod.com). Again, Flash is cool but then you have to

    >integrate
    >> it with a backside. They have worked on that but... . Many people have
    >> seen the the Eclipse IDE and had no clue it was Java. Most of the time,
    >> customers don't care that much about the GUI looks - as long as it works.
    >> Developers usually care more and think the users do. We are using the

    >standard
    >> Java L and F and not one user has complained - and we have alot (users

    and
    >> complainers ). I did another app for another company - they didn't

    >like
    >> the standard L and F. A couple of lines of code and I popped in the

    >Windows
    >> one - they loved it.
    >>
    >> Also, I would say the choice was function over feature not form. Most

    VB
    >> code and any of the .Net and some Java code too that I have have seen

    is
    >> in bad form. (I know that is not what you meant)
    >>
    >> I think it will help your career. Having a wider knowledge base will

    >help.
    >> It will make you more marketable. There really is no room in this market
    >> for single focus developers. Plus, it will help you make better decisions
    >> in the future - if you have a good experience. Do keep up on your .Net

    >and
    >> expand your knowledge of it. And if you have time, check out a few more
    >> technologies.
    >>
    >> I do think you will need a mentor if you are going to do the Java.

    >Truthfully,
    >> I think those using .Net should have one too. It just is a little easier
    >> to whip stuff out with .Net - not good stuff - but stuff (Yeah, I know

    it
    >> will look pretty and will take 2 seconds). Actually I can whip Java stuff
    >> out too with the right IDE.
    >>
    >> As for funding - it is a pay now or pay later. It you don't get some

    >architectual
    >> help now (with .Net or Java) - they will be paying alot more later.
    >>
    >> Hopefully things will go well for you. It sounds like the road my be

    a
    >little
    >> rough ahead for you all. My recommendation is that they outsource it.

    It
    >> doesn't seem like anyone has close to enough knowledge and experience

    to
    >> pull off what they want/need to do (Sorry if this offends). Keep us

    >posted.
    >> I will help where I can with suggestions and answering questions. If

    you
    >> want, you can email me. If your email is correct and you want, I can

    >shoot
    >> you my email address.
    >>
    >> You've had a difficult decision to make and your background made you want
    >> to choose what you knew as opposed to the best tool for the job. I think
    >> you choose wisely.
    >>
    >>
    >> "Michael Gautier" <gautier_michael@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >> >I recommended Java. We met with a Java expert and my boss was sold on

    >Java.
    >> >He decided that function was more important than form. So we saw a demo

    >> of
    >> >an application this guy did in Java (Java WebStart is pretty cool). It

    >was
    >> >an app just like ours. Here's what happened:
    >> >
    >> >After the Java Expert left, my boss and I came to the conclusion that

    it
    >> was
    >> >better to have a robust code platform than a powerful UI technology.

    My
    >> >boss's boss came in, saw the UI on the Java app (standard UI by the way,
    >> >equivalent to any desktop VB app) and said, "If our customers saw that,

    >> they
    >> >would leave the room." My boss changed his tune and Flash became the
    >> >recommendation (he didn't tell his boss that he supported Java). While

    I
    >> >came to the same conclusions as my boss's boss a few weeks ago, I sided

    >> with
    >> >Java (best IT political decision) rather than Flash (best Business

    >political
    >> >decision) since it seemed more practical.
    >> >
    >> >I even recommended that if they go with Java, that they either replace

    me
    >> or
    >> >bring the Java expert on board. My boss started this rant about funding

    >> .
    >> >.. but that it may be possible for the guy to do limited work with me.

    >Since
    >> >the Flash decision, I have no help (most pure designers don't know how

    to
    >> >code, yet). Does anyone have any idea how this will affect my career

    if
    >> the
    >> >application succeeds? Will I suffer penalties for not doing (insert your
    >> >technology here) more traditional things for a year? I welcome all

    >opinions
    >> >on this, as it will help give some perspective on coping with this change
    >> >from a pure Microsoft dude to who knows what.
    >> >
    >> >I guess image is everything.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >

    >>

    >
    >



  7. #7
    Guy Smith Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology: Results


    I'm not sure I understand the last post. You recommened Java but they went
    with Flash or did they follow your recommendation)?

    I have heard that Flash is inherently slow. I friend of mine is doing some
    large scale work with it and says that the app suffers from the speed of
    flash. He I don't know in what regard it is slow, but it may be something
    to look into.

    Another reason I can think to stear away from Flash is it's ability to stick
    around. People talk about the problems of getting locked into a vendor's
    technology, refering to Microsoft. But Microsoft is a multi-billion dollar
    giant. It is going to stick around. Java avoids (to some degree) vendor
    lock in and I can see Java being here 5 maybe 10 years down the road. But
    Flash.. I have my doubts. Are your employers prepared to have a dead technology
    on their hands in five years? Also look at support costs. Will it cost
    $500 every time you need support? I know little about flash however, so
    feel free to slap my hands if need be.

    You will suffer if you do less traditional things for a year. Recruiter
    and employers alike will look at what you've been doing when it comes time
    to be rehired. Put yourself in their shoes. Would you hire someone that
    has been doing X for the last year when the job requires Y, especially when
    there are people that have been working with Y recently? If you are refering
    to "Java" as being less traditional, I don't think you have a lot to worry
    about in that regard. But remember, as a consultant, having a specialty
    is important. Being the expert on a breadth and depth of particular technology
    will get you work. Being a master of nothing, will throw you in the same
    pool as 200 other people applying for a job. The Java surge is leveling
    off, .Net will surge soon and pay really good for a year or two (although
    I'm not seeing the pay I'd expect). Both will be around for a while. There
    are jobs for people that are experts in both areas.

    If you are the sole consultant, offer to take a short-term cut in pay if
    they hire an architect (MAKE SURE YOU CONTRACT STATES THAT YOUR PAY RATE
    WILL RESUME AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE)! A good architectural design will
    pay dividends even if coded a little weaker. If you can work with this person
    for a month after, coding, you'll be well on your way to knowing Java. Taking
    a cut in pay may sound drastic but if it helps you learn a new technology
    WHILE making at least some money, it is a heck of a lot cheaper than paying
    for Certification or training while unemployed.

    Remember, learning Java is not that hard. Honestly. You won't know every
    API and neat trick under the sun, but you can learn the meat material in
    a few weeks and be able to code 90% of a typical application with it. If
    you work with a *good* architect you'll learn a lot about good OO design,
    etc. Might be a win-win situation.

    Guy





  8. #8
    Michael Gautier Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology: Results

    I agree with everything you said, although some of it seems ominous to me.

    I recommended Java because I felt my .NET experience would translate. My
    manager and his bosses want to do Flash because it is cool and it meets
    their requirements. I think I might be screwed.

    I think that it may not be too late to change their minds, but they have
    stuck their necks out and backed Flash. I even told them that Java would be
    better for my career. They didn't care. Unfortunately, since I have been
    with this company, I haven't gotten anything in production for a year. The
    management is bad, but I don't know what choice I got, since I would likely
    have to depend on them for references and so forth. I feel I have to stay in
    order to get applications in production and repair my once sterling
    reputation.

    The only hope I have is that Flash could represent the future of rich web ui
    development and if I pull it off, the end result would be awesome. I still
    think Java or another approach would have been more practical and a better
    guarantor of success. I offered for them to replace me with a more qualified
    consultant (Java), but I guess out of all the people they could get, I was
    the easiest to manipulate. We even tried to get somebody on, someone who
    could show me the ropes with Java, but they decided that they didn't have
    any money.

    "Guy Smith" <asd@sdf.com> wrote in message news:3d8e7165$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > I'm not sure I understand the last post. You recommened Java but they

    went
    > with Flash or did they follow your recommendation)?
    >
    > I have heard that Flash is inherently slow. I friend of mine is doing

    some
    > large scale work with it and says that the app suffers from the speed of
    > flash. He I don't know in what regard it is slow, but it may be something
    > to look into.
    >
    > Another reason I can think to stear away from Flash is it's ability to

    stick
    > around. People talk about the problems of getting locked into a vendor's
    > technology, refering to Microsoft. But Microsoft is a multi-billion dollar
    > giant. It is going to stick around. Java avoids (to some degree) vendor
    > lock in and I can see Java being here 5 maybe 10 years down the road. But
    > Flash.. I have my doubts. Are your employers prepared to have a dead

    technology
    > on their hands in five years? Also look at support costs. Will it cost
    > $500 every time you need support? I know little about flash however, so
    > feel free to slap my hands if need be.
    >
    > You will suffer if you do less traditional things for a year. Recruiter
    > and employers alike will look at what you've been doing when it comes time
    > to be rehired. Put yourself in their shoes. Would you hire someone that
    > has been doing X for the last year when the job requires Y, especially

    when
    > there are people that have been working with Y recently? If you are

    refering
    > to "Java" as being less traditional, I don't think you have a lot to worry
    > about in that regard. But remember, as a consultant, having a specialty
    > is important. Being the expert on a breadth and depth of particular

    technology
    > will get you work. Being a master of nothing, will throw you in the same
    > pool as 200 other people applying for a job. The Java surge is leveling
    > off, .Net will surge soon and pay really good for a year or two (although
    > I'm not seeing the pay I'd expect). Both will be around for a while.

    There
    > are jobs for people that are experts in both areas.
    >
    > If you are the sole consultant, offer to take a short-term cut in pay if
    > they hire an architect (MAKE SURE YOU CONTRACT STATES THAT YOUR PAY RATE
    > WILL RESUME AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE)! A good architectural design

    will
    > pay dividends even if coded a little weaker. If you can work with this

    person
    > for a month after, coding, you'll be well on your way to knowing Java.

    Taking
    > a cut in pay may sound drastic but if it helps you learn a new technology
    > WHILE making at least some money, it is a heck of a lot cheaper than

    paying
    > for Certification or training while unemployed.
    >
    > Remember, learning Java is not that hard. Honestly. You won't know every
    > API and neat trick under the sun, but you can learn the meat material in
    > a few weeks and be able to code 90% of a typical application with it. If
    > you work with a *good* architect you'll learn a lot about good OO design,
    > etc. Might be a win-win situation.
    >
    > Guy
    >
    >
    >
    >




  9. #9
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology: Results


    Now I am confused. They want to use Flash on the client. What will they
    use for the server?



  10. #10
    solex Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology: Results

    Michael,
    It sounds like you are in a situation that I myself have been in and I'm
    sure others have been.

    You need to separate what is right for the company and what is right for
    you. Then you need to see where you can find a compromise. If there is
    no compromise to be found then you have only one choice, leave.

    Here are some facts:
    (a) it appears the management is pretty poor at your company (Based on
    what you have told us)
    (b) No one at your company really knows about the technology you all
    plan to implement
    (c) The requirements for your application are sketchy, what is it that
    you guys are trying to create?
    (d) No one technological platform is the solution to a large project
    (e) The IT job market is not fairing well, most companies are scaling
    back on IT spending particularly web development

    Based on those little facts, how in your corporate environment do you
    achive your goals? I for one do not think that developing a database
    application in flash is the way to go. I am assuming that your proposed
    application is database driven.

    Perhaps you should start with a list one side has what you want to
    achieve and the other side has what the company wants to achieve.
    Remember to keep in mind point (d)


  11. #11
    Michael Gautier Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology: Results

    They basically decided to use Flash on the client and .NET on the server.
    They are heavily invested in Microsoft servers. There was talk about Linux
    and Java, but they since they can't get their existing VB6 developers to
    budge, they are neither going all the way with .NET or Java. They just
    bought "NT", not 2000 servers and are "improving" their "COM" based assets.

    It is weird and confusing to me as well.





    "MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d90409d$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > Now I am confused. They want to use Flash on the client. What will they
    > use for the server?
    >
    >




  12. #12
    Michael Gautier Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology: Results

    The management is good/proven on Mainframe technology issues, there hasn't
    been a good track record with pc based solutions/projects using Microsoft
    technology. I have worked at other places under leaders who had tremendous
    experience in client/server and pc tech and it is like night and day. I get
    a since that due to the Mainframe being the primary platform, that pc
    projects are nothing more than experience builders or fun stuff for these
    dudes.

    No one knows about the technology and they probably never will. I just spent
    the last couple of months developing a solution in .NET and I am still the
    only expert in the technology. I tried to teach my fellow developer the
    stuff, but I guess her mainframe background got in the way. No she is more
    or less by project leader.

    I can't divulge the industry or whatever (I've been warned). The application
    basically will allow data entry of information that will end up on a central
    database. There are workflow, administration and cross platform
    requirements. There was supposed to be 3 phases. The first phase which is
    about done, was the creation of a batch system for processing, validating
    and storing xml. Typical stuff where a file is ftpd in. This was all written
    in C#.NET as a set of windows services. From my manager's point of view,
    this is the main application (They do batch all the time on the mainframe).
    The second phase was supposed to be a web application (I am an expert in
    this area) and the third phase an offline capable version of the
    application. Right when we got here, the manager decided that we would
    consolidate the second and third phases to achieve technical effeciency (1
    UI, etc). Anyway, that is what forced us down the Flash or Java direction
    because the application has offline operation requirements (even though
    nobody goes offline now). It seemed like in recent days, that the manager
    has backed off of the offline soapbox some even though we will still go with
    Flash. Someone had to have talked to him about the practicality of offline
    (who isn't connected?). Anyway, he wanted to build it right the first time
    by having the architecture to support offline. This is all fine, but it will
    come at the expense of timely delivery. He said he didn't care about timely
    delivery, but let me tell you a story . . .

    They did a survey of current and potential customers and greater than 60%
    wanted a web application less than 10 wanted batch and the rest were split
    between paper and existing electronic solutions. They did the survey last
    year, yet the technical guys (my managers) decided to do batch, but there is
    only 1 customer at the door, whereas the business folks and the majority of
    customers are expecting a web application. I don't know about you, but if I
    had a chance to jump my competitors in a area where they are not meeting
    demand, then I would be out there. Now my boss says money is running out for
    the project. Competitors are saying how slow we are, customers seem to be
    losing interest and my personal estimate is that it may take around a year,
    not 4 months to develop the application.

    I think the companies are scaling back on web because they couldn't get any
    significant ROI that was meaningful to the decision makers that matter for
    the cost of development and infrastructure.

    As for me, my .NET experience will continue to go forward, but instead of
    doing ASP.NET and/or Windows Forms as I had expected, it looks like it will
    be maintaining the batch systems, reporting systems, writing web services
    and supporting class libraries (middleware). I do Windows Forms all the
    time, but customer facing, "real" stuff doesn't seem to be in the makings
    for me. It only matters to the extent that "duration in experience" of
    professional, production ASP.NET UI and/or Windows Forms client development
    will matter to employers versus overall capability. I would have taken Java
    client development as well since that could be leverage some. Flash will
    only benefit me to the extent that my manager allow me to do graphics
    authoring and exploiting of Flash's capabilities. There is a future in
    Flash, if not the technology, then the concepts inherent in the results. But
    if I fail with Flash, I have much less available to me in the short term.

    As a consultant, my "pimp" says that there are at least 3 places I could go.
    I happen to be one of the top .NET dudes in my area (experience and
    exposure) and she says I can get top billing (I don't currently). Thing is,
    if she pulls me away from this contract, she will likely loose the other
    contractors there (that's how the employers play it). So either my contract
    ends at a good stopping point, I switch companies (thus opportunities) or
    who knows. The onsite company is a stable job (they hardly ever let people
    go, its like the government), but on the flipside, people end up staying
    there and going with the status quo. Because these things are inherent in
    big companies (and little to a degree), I am understanding. One thing I
    know, the grass isn't greener anywhere so it goes back to what you said,
    what is it, that I am trying to achieve. I know what that is, but I am
    trying not to burn bridges, get okay references, and finish the duration of
    the "project". Afterwards, I was either going to leave or stay if they had
    something good going on. I am a young guy, so this is proving difficult
    despite situations like this in the past (anyone work in a perl shop when
    asp was taking off?).


    "solex" <solex@nowhere.com> wrote in message
    news:3D90A276.1080804@nowhere.com...
    > Michael,
    > It sounds like you are in a situation that I myself have been in and I'm
    > sure others have been.
    >
    > You need to separate what is right for the company and what is right for
    > you. Then you need to see where you can find a compromise. If there is
    > no compromise to be found then you have only one choice, leave.
    >
    > Here are some facts:
    > (a) it appears the management is pretty poor at your company (Based on
    > what you have told us)
    > (b) No one at your company really knows about the technology you all
    > plan to implement
    > (c) The requirements for your application are sketchy, what is it that
    > you guys are trying to create?
    > (d) No one technological platform is the solution to a large project
    > (e) The IT job market is not fairing well, most companies are scaling
    > back on IT spending particularly web development
    >
    > Based on those little facts, how in your corporate environment do you
    > achive your goals? I for one do not think that developing a database
    > application in flash is the way to go. I am assuming that your proposed
    > application is database driven.
    >
    > Perhaps you should start with a list one side has what you want to
    > achieve and the other side has what the company wants to achieve.
    > Remember to keep in mind point (d)
    >




  13. #13
    solex Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology: Results

    Michael,
    I certianly appreciate your current situation, but from what you have
    said it appears that you have some really good experience.

    I cannot determine your architecture based on this and previous posts
    but why would it not be easy to develop an internet solution based on
    the current batch solution?

    Forgive me if I am being persumptious, but if you have abstracted your
    data tier there is no reason why you could not also develop an off-line
    version.

    I have managed mainframe developers (AS/400) and converted them to JAVA
    (from RPG!) using JSP and J2EE and again I apperciate your situtation.
    Learning OOP has been and continues to be a challenge for me, but trying
    to convert mainframe procedural developers had been very difficult.

    Good Luck!
    Dan

    Michael Gautier wrote:
    > The management is good/proven on Mainframe technology issues, there hasn't
    > been a good track record with pc based solutions/projects using Microsoft
    > technology. I have worked at other places under leaders who had tremendous
    > experience in client/server and pc tech and it is like night and day. I get
    > a since that due to the Mainframe being the primary platform, that pc
    > projects are nothing more than experience builders or fun stuff for these
    > dudes.
    >
    > No one knows about the technology and they probably never will. I just spent
    > the last couple of months developing a solution in .NET and I am still the
    > only expert in the technology. I tried to teach my fellow developer the
    > stuff, but I guess her mainframe background got in the way. No she is more
    > or less by project leader.
    >
    > I can't divulge the industry or whatever (I've been warned). The application
    > basically will allow data entry of information that will end up on a central
    > database. There are workflow, administration and cross platform
    > requirements. There was supposed to be 3 phases. The first phase which is
    > about done, was the creation of a batch system for processing, validating
    > and storing xml. Typical stuff where a file is ftpd in. This was all written
    > in C#.NET as a set of windows services. From my manager's point of view,
    > this is the main application (They do batch all the time on the mainframe).
    > The second phase was supposed to be a web application (I am an expert in
    > this area) and the third phase an offline capable version of the
    > application. Right when we got here, the manager decided that we would
    > consolidate the second and third phases to achieve technical effeciency (1
    > UI, etc). Anyway, that is what forced us down the Flash or Java direction
    > because the application has offline operation requirements (even though
    > nobody goes offline now). It seemed like in recent days, that the manager
    > has backed off of the offline soapbox some even though we will still go with
    > Flash. Someone had to have talked to him about the practicality of offline
    > (who isn't connected?). Anyway, he wanted to build it right the first time
    > by having the architecture to support offline. This is all fine, but it will
    > come at the expense of timely delivery. He said he didn't care about timely
    > delivery, but let me tell you a story . . .
    >
    > They did a survey of current and potential customers and greater than 60%
    > wanted a web application less than 10 wanted batch and the rest were split
    > between paper and existing electronic solutions. They did the survey last
    > year, yet the technical guys (my managers) decided to do batch, but there is
    > only 1 customer at the door, whereas the business folks and the majority of
    > customers are expecting a web application. I don't know about you, but if I
    > had a chance to jump my competitors in a area where they are not meeting
    > demand, then I would be out there. Now my boss says money is running out for
    > the project. Competitors are saying how slow we are, customers seem to be
    > losing interest and my personal estimate is that it may take around a year,
    > not 4 months to develop the application.
    >
    > I think the companies are scaling back on web because they couldn't get any
    > significant ROI that was meaningful to the decision makers that matter for
    > the cost of development and infrastructure.
    >
    > As for me, my .NET experience will continue to go forward, but instead of
    > doing ASP.NET and/or Windows Forms as I had expected, it looks like it will
    > be maintaining the batch systems, reporting systems, writing web services
    > and supporting class libraries (middleware). I do Windows Forms all the
    > time, but customer facing, "real" stuff doesn't seem to be in the makings
    > for me. It only matters to the extent that "duration in experience" of
    > professional, production ASP.NET UI and/or Windows Forms client development
    > will matter to employers versus overall capability. I would have taken Java
    > client development as well since that could be leverage some. Flash will
    > only benefit me to the extent that my manager allow me to do graphics
    > authoring and exploiting of Flash's capabilities. There is a future in
    > Flash, if not the technology, then the concepts inherent in the results. But
    > if I fail with Flash, I have much less available to me in the short term.
    >
    > As a consultant, my "pimp" says that there are at least 3 places I could go.
    > I happen to be one of the top .NET dudes in my area (experience and
    > exposure) and she says I can get top billing (I don't currently). Thing is,
    > if she pulls me away from this contract, she will likely loose the other
    > contractors there (that's how the employers play it). So either my contract
    > ends at a good stopping point, I switch companies (thus opportunities) or
    > who knows. The onsite company is a stable job (they hardly ever let people
    > go, its like the government), but on the flipside, people end up staying
    > there and going with the status quo. Because these things are inherent in
    > big companies (and little to a degree), I am understanding. One thing I
    > know, the grass isn't greener anywhere so it goes back to what you said,
    > what is it, that I am trying to achieve. I know what that is, but I am
    > trying not to burn bridges, get okay references, and finish the duration of
    > the "project". Afterwards, I was either going to leave or stay if they had
    > something good going on. I am a young guy, so this is proving difficult
    > despite situations like this in the past (anyone work in a perl shop when
    > asp was taking off?).
    >
    >
    > "solex" <solex@nowhere.com> wrote in message
    > news:3D90A276.1080804@nowhere.com...
    >
    >>Michael,
    >>It sounds like you are in a situation that I myself have been in and I'm
    >>sure others have been.
    >>
    >>You need to separate what is right for the company and what is right for
    >>you. Then you need to see where you can find a compromise. If there is
    >>no compromise to be found then you have only one choice, leave.
    >>
    >>Here are some facts:
    >>(a) it appears the management is pretty poor at your company (Based on
    >>what you have told us)
    >>(b) No one at your company really knows about the technology you all
    >>plan to implement
    >>(c) The requirements for your application are sketchy, what is it that
    >>you guys are trying to create?
    >>(d) No one technological platform is the solution to a large project
    >>(e) The IT job market is not fairing well, most companies are scaling
    >>back on IT spending particularly web development
    >>
    >>Based on those little facts, how in your corporate environment do you
    >>achive your goals? I for one do not think that developing a database
    >>application in flash is the way to go. I am assuming that your proposed
    >>application is database driven.
    >>
    >>Perhaps you should start with a list one side has what you want to
    >>achieve and the other side has what the company wants to achieve.
    >>Remember to keep in mind point (d)
    >>

    >
    >
    >




  14. #14
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology: Results


    Ok. No wonder they have no money for talent. They spent it all on hardware
    and software. Oh well. Good luck.



  15. #15
    Mark Guest

    Re: Recommending a technology: Results


    Sounds like 99.9% of companies.

    >I for one do not think that developing a database
    >application in flash is the way to go. I am assuming that your proposed


    >application is database driven.


    This problem with most apps - They think database and GUI. This is the wrong
    way to go about it. The quickest yes. But also the fastest to a pile of
    single use code.


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