JSP vs ASP vs Cold Fusion ???

[Phil phil.holbrook]

Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
web apps development
as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5 in
the future? Will JSP catch on
or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
It is my understanding
that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
two technologies but more
difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
a year of self-study into a
technology that's gonna' fizzle.

Any ideas?


Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"

[John Timney (MVP)]

> Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for
widespread
> web apps development
> as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5 in
> the future? Will JSP catch on
> or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold
Fusion?

Yes it will catch on - but its got an awful lot of catching to do...asp is
really mature and so versatile through com, with the onset of SOAP and LDAP
technology it gets even better. You can also use Java classes in ASP if you
wish. As for Cold Fusion - I dont like it, but it has a minority following,
as does PHP.

It is my understanding
> that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
> two technologies but more
> difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
> a year of self-study into a
> technology that's gonna' fizzle.

Its not true to say its more flexible, and ASP will run on almost any
platform via Chilli, its a lot easier to develop in ASP than JSP or
servlets, and I develop in both so I think I know what I'm talking about.
That said, learning java will not do you any harm, its a good language if
you ignore the anti-microsoft idiots and dont mind the ridiculous amount of
deprecation that seem to be going on.

Regards

John Timney (MVP)

[Tom Duffy]

Hello Phil:

My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.
That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.

The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
I'm not.

Tom Duffy

"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>
>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>web apps development
>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5 in
>the future? Will JSP catch on
>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
> It is my understanding
>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>two technologies but more
>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>a year of self-study into a
>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>
>Any ideas?
>
>
>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>

[Phil]

Thanks for the reply, I'm feeling more and more comfortable
about putting in all this time on Java. However, I have another question
about your response ...

<<<ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available through
the View Source command>>> I was under the impression that the 'processed
result' of the VB Script is all that's visible. Is this enough to pull out
the business rules of your application?

Thanks Again,

Phil




"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Phil:
>
>My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.

>That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>
>The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
>methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
>property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
>through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
>it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
> I'm not.
>
>Tom Duffy
>
>"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>>
>>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>>web apps development
>>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
in
>>the future? Will JSP catch on
>>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
>> It is my understanding
>>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>>two technologies but more
>>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>>a year of self-study into a
>>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>>
>

[Strider]

All that is visible is what the asp code sends to the client. it doesn't
show any vbscript only the results, further more if you put your logic in
com objects it is further insulated.
I have mucho experience in VB and have to spend enough time learning the new
dna stuff, therefore I will spend my time learning new ways to do things in
vb or c++. com+, msmq, w2k and iis 5 is stable and microsoft isn't going to
go away anytime soon.

jc
Phil <phil.holbrook@allectis.com> wrote in message
news:38d0ef28$1@news.devx.com...
>
> Thanks for the reply, I'm feeling more and more comfortable
> about putting in all this time on Java. However, I have another question
> about your response ...
>
> <<<ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
through
> the View Source command>>> I was under the impression that the 'processed
> result' of the VB Script is all that's visible. Is this enough to pull
out
> the business rules of your application?
>
> Thanks Again,
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
> "Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Hello Phil:
> >
> >My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.
>
> >That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
> >
> >The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to
call
> >methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business
rules/logic/intellectual
> >property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily
available
> >through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and
yes,
> >it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's
really
> >mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your
code?
> > I'm not.
> >
> >Tom Duffy
> >
> >"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
> >>
> >>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for
widespread
> >>web apps development
> >>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
> in
> >>the future? Will JSP catch on
> >>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold
Fusion?
> >> It is my understanding
> >>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the
other
> >>two technologies but more
> >>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna'
sink
> >>a year of self-study into a
> >>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
> >>
> >>Any ideas?
> >>
> >>
> >>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
> >>
> >
>

[John Timney (MVP)]

I'm afraid your a little incorrect Tom, ASP can easily call methods in
compiled Java code and has the added advantage of COM+, its also totally
platform independent if you run it over products like Chillisofts asp
engine.

ASP code is strictly server side, the only think you will see is the same
output you would see in a JSP page or servlet output. ASP would typically
be developed in vbscript, jscript or javascript so it doesn't only relate to
win32 developers.

I do agree with you that its here to stay, but like Java it still needs to
mature a bit before it makes a more significant impact on the market.

Regards

John Timney (MVP)


> My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.
> That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>
> The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
> methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business
rules/logic/intellectual
> property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily
available
> through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
> it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
> mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
> I'm not.
>
> Tom Duffy

[Sylvain Bujold]

If you are good in JavaScript and HTML and your web apps need strong feature
of database: the BEST solution is West-Wind Web Connection!! Nothing more
to say.

Sylvain Bujold

[lhmartin nitram]

"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Phil:
>
>My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.

>That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>
>The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
>methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
>property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
>through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
>it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
> I'm not.
>
>Tom Duffy
>
>"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>>
>>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>>web apps development
>>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
in
>>the future? Will JSP catch on
>>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
>> It is my understanding
>>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>>two technologies but more
>>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>>a year of self-study into a
>>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>>
>

[StaceBerkland]

Tom,

I'm not sure that you fully understand ASP. with ASP one CAN call methods
in compiled code (VB, C++, or Java).

And, since ASP code is typically server-side, you can NOT view the source
and see that server-side logic. The only thing you see when viewing source
in a browser is that code being generated for the client (typically HTML,
CSS, or client-side JavaScript).

JSP is a very good response to ASP and Allaire's ColdFusion. But, it's still
young. Do I think it's hear to stay? Of course I do! But, the items you
proposed as arguments for using JSP over ASP are not accurate.

Next time, make sure you understand the tool and what it does before you
start tearing it apart.

Stace


"Tom Duffy" <td4729@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hello Phil:
>
>My bank uses JSPs to deliver dynamic content about my checking account.

>That's all the evidence I need to see to know that JSP is here to stay.
>
>The major advantage to JSP vs ASP is that it gives you the ability to call
>methods in compiled Java code thereby hiding your business rules/logic/intellectual
>property. ASP code resides in the client document and is readily available
>through the View Source command. Yes, ASP has been around longer and yes,
>it is easier to learn from the viewpoint of a Win32 developer (it's really
>mostly VBScript after all). But are you ready to show everyone your code?
> I'm not.
>
>Tom Duffy
>
>"Phil" phil.holbrook wrote:
>>
>>Can someone conject as to the viability of Java Server Pages for widespread
>>web apps development
>>as opposed to MS' Active Server Pages or Allaire's Cold Fusion 4.0/4.5
in
>>the future? Will JSP catch on
>>or will it be left behind considering the ease-of-use of ASP and Cold Fusion?
>> It is my understanding
>>that Java Server Pages are much more powerful and flexible than the other
>>two technologies but more
>>difficult to learn. I want to learn and USE Java but I don't wanna' sink
>>a year of self-study into a
>>technology that's gonna' fizzle.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>
>>Phil "The Slowly-Reforming MS Developer"
>>
>

[Andi]

Hi All,

Have anyone have an experience with ColdFusion? I read all your discussion.
I just only ASP vs JSP.

Thank

[John Timney (MVP)]

I have used it but not in anger, its a very good product...but its slipping
back a bit in the market I think. Wouldn't be my first choice, mainly as I
know other things much better, its got some excellent features though.

Regards

John Timney (MVP)


Andi <annops@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:38dbaa8f$1@news.devx.com...
>
> Hi All,
>
> Have anyone have an experience with ColdFusion? I read all your
discussion.
> I just only ASP vs JSP.
>
> Thank

[Sebasten Bouchet]

You have to analyse whch amount of extra service you need. If you want email
capabilities, ldap support, a naming service, platform-independant DB access
and growing XML support, then Java (J2EE)is a good think to look at.

Then keep in mind that ASP runs best on Microsoft platforms (in spite of
Chili software), Java technologies on Unix machines, especially Solaris.

But to me, both ASP and JSP (I don't know about CF) fail to separate business
logic from presentation by allowing web authors to embed far too much code
in their pages.

I'm convinced that the only safe way to use JSP is too use them along with
servlets. The functional paradigm then becomes :
1) Intercept the client request with your servlet, process the data and business
logic (db access, online pricing ...)
2) Forward the results to your JSP which is clearly devoted to presentation
and presentation only, with JSP tags containing little code.

By doing this your Java code is cleaner and can be as complex as you want
it to be (add exception handling to your JSP code and have a look at your
document in Dreamweaver ...)

Hope this helps understanding what your needs are

Sebastien

[mike]

Phil,

The way I see it is that ASP ties you to the Microsoft and hence Intel platforms.
JSP on the other hand does not. I hear arguments that ChiliASP makes ASP
portable but in my eyes this is a weak argument. The most powerful feature
of ASP is it's ability to call COM objects. When using ChiliASP on non Microsoft
platforms you don't have COM. It can be argued that there are tools which
allow you to do some of this on non MS platforms but you start moving into
an environment just as complex as JSP.

JSP on the other hand is more complex and the IDE's are not nearly as friendly
but I believe you will see this changing rapidly. The ability to deploy
JSP on platforms as diverse as Linux, OS/400, OS/390, AIX, Solaris, NT, etc.
let's you pick the best deployment option that fits your needs.

There is no one right answer. Microsoft has a compelling solution if you
are willing to drink the Microsoft Cool-Aide. JSP on the other hand has
a steeper learning curve but offers many more deployment options.

Hope this help.

Mike

[Tristan Blais]

I work for a web design and web consulting firm. We use both ASP & ColdFusion
for data driven websites. I love both these tools/languages. Depending on
the type of client we are designing the site for we use the appropriate tools.

Since most of the time we arent hosting the given client's site, we have
to take into consideration how knowledgeable the person or people that will
be doing the maintenance on the site will be.

I have found that ColdFusion is quite easy to learn and has a small learning
curve. When we use ASP in the design of websites, we make sure the client
has someone that can do updates and maintenance on the given site. This
is quite easy since ASP closely ressembles VB and therefore not too hard
to adapt too.

I couldnt see myself handing a JSP driven website to a client knowing they
would bang their heads on the monitors trying to learn Java. I program in
Java once in a while, and know the language pretty well but it seems that
most people who try to learn it give up after a while due to its complexity
and lack of stable IDE.

And lets face it, with the amount of available ActiveX controls(commercial
and non-commercial), ASP makes web developement that much easier.

Well, thats my rant

T. Blais

[Ross Lambert]

> Microsoft has a compelling solution if you
> are willing to drink the Microsoft Cool-Aide.
> JSP on the other hand has a steeper learning curve but
> offers many more deployment options.

You are quite correct, but I think _everybody_ is missing the point by just
a smidgin: ASP is a Microsoft-specific solution. They're you're only choice
for a vendor on Windows. J2EE is vendor neutral. There are already some great
competing options.

Incidentally, I don't really like JSP (or ASP, for that matter). I prefer
heavy use of servlets in combination with server-side include statments embedded
within HTML. I have a clean separation between GUI (HTML) and back-end (servlet)
tiers and I don't have to embed JSP stuff in my HTML.

== Ross ==

Ross Lambert, Senior Programmer/Analyst
PUD No. 1 of Douglas County, WA