Career Change

[Lester Burnham]

I will not be going back to the job and industry I was in. I'm starting over.

Beyound MS Office I know nothing about computer programming, ok
some programming from about 20 years ago which doesn't count.

Where do I start? Does Java, C++, or some other language offer the best
way
to get a paying job with some long term career upward mobility?

Thanks

[Michael]

I was looking at some research that shows that VB, Java, and C++ are the three
largest languages in that order. VB is the easiest to get up and going in,
but Java and C++ take more discipline and work. If you are just looking to
get in on the ground floor, pick up some VB, if you want to get serious,
go with Java.


"Lester Burnham" <choton@swbell.net> wrote:
>
>I will not be going back to the job and industry I was in. I'm starting
over.
>
>Beyound MS Office I know nothing about computer programming, ok
>some programming from about 20 years ago which doesn't count.
>
>Where do I start? Does Java, C++, or some other language offer the best
>way
>to get a paying job with some long term career upward mobility?
>
>Thanks
>
>

[Jim Pragit]

Lester,

C++, Java and Visual Basic are the three "big" languages in use today. There
are literally hundreds of languages around, but these three comprise about
90% of the job market. So, if you learn any of these three, you'll do alright.


Pros and Cons: C++ is the hardest of the three and some experts predict its
use will be dropping off. Java is new and somewhat unproven, but so far
so good. VB is easy to learn and very straight forward, but MS is the only
vendor of VB. With MS's current legal problems, I have my doubts whether
they can deliver the next version of VB on time.

Avoid RPG and Cobol as they're on their way out. Avoid Delphi too. It was
a good language but never really took off. In the midwest (where I live),
there are 40 VB jobs for every Delphi job.

In terms of money, I've seen one report that said Java programmers (on average)
make about $5-$10 thousand a year more than VB programmers. I'm not sure
where C++ programmers fit in.

Where to begin? I would recommend going back to school, even if it's only
for a few night classes at a junior college.

- Jim

"Lester Burnham" <choton@swbell.net> wrote:
>
>I will not be going back to the job and industry I was in. I'm starting
over.
>
>Beyound MS Office I know nothing about computer programming, ok
>some programming from about 20 years ago which doesn't count.
>
>Where do I start? Does Java, C++, or some other language offer the best
>way
>to get a paying job with some long term career upward mobility?
>
>Thanks

[pronster]

Java is WAY WAY hard than VB. If your not already a programmer, (and older
than 15), it might be too hard to start with.

I'd recommend VB. You can always change languages later. My buddy Bri tried
to start with C and then Java as a way to break into programming. 5 years
later he's STILL struggling with those languages at home.

Start small, maybe work the help desk somewhere. If youve time & money -
get a degree in Comp Sci somewhere - thats instant respect.

pr0nster

[Bard dZen]

I own my own consulting company and after sifting through many resumes=20=

and interviews of CIS majors that know absolutely nothing about what the=
y=20
are applying for, even supposed "experienced" developers, having a CIS=20=

degree really means squat unless you want a management role down the=20=

road.

If you want to be a programmer, get some practical experience, actual or=
=20
on the side. Degrees are secondary. Also, this tends to be the opposite=
=20
if you are applying to a larger companies, as they expect you have no=20=

experience and have the resources to wait 6-8 months for you to do OJT. =
=20
Mid to smaller companies simply don't have the time or money to waste=20=

waiting for you to learn your role.

I'd hire someone who knows their stuff than someone who doesn't with a=20=

degree any day of the week.

> Start small, maybe work the help desk somewhere. If youve time & money=
-
> get a degree in Comp Sci somewhere - thats instant respect.

> pr0nster

[Mick Mickelson]

Lester,

I started learning VB at home, while in college. I do not have a degree
in any discipline nor did I attend any CS classes.

My first computer related gig was on a help desk doing hardware/software
support. Within a few months I was programming custom apps for application
integration.

My advice is...

Start with VB. It is much easier to comprehend than Java & C++.
Once you get a grip on VB, Java will be easier to understand. You can assume
that Java is the direction to go in. C++, while being the most versatile
across operating systems, is extremely difficult to become proficient in.
It takes a lot of time and experience.

A degree may not be necessary, however, it is a key to opening many doors.
I have applied for positions where my experience and skills matched perfectly
as described with the exception of that degree, only to receive a letter
indicating that they had no openings for someone with my skills. Yea...right.

To establish some credibility, I am employed now as a senior systems analyst/architect.
All of my education in these areas has been "self-taught". While I do not
have a degree, I am considered by my peers and customers as the "go to guy"
for difficult problems.


Hope this helps.
Mick Mickelson

[Mark]

For those considering Java, I highly recommend taking
one or more of Sun's exams. The most important exam
is the Sun Certified Programmer exam. The other two
important exams are the developer exam and the architect
exam.

Of course, you will need to study diligently for these.
Read James Gosling's 'The Java Programming Language', and
take advantage of some of the free practice exams on the
web.

Getting one of these certifications 'under your belt'
will certainly give you a 'shoe in'.

Mark

"Mick Mickelson" <mickmcklsn@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Lester,
>
>I started learning VB at home, while in college. I do not have a degree
>in any discipline nor did I attend any CS classes.
>
>My first computer related gig was on a help desk doing hardware/software
>support. Within a few months I was programming custom apps for application
>integration.
>
>My advice is...
>
>Start with VB. It is much easier to comprehend than Java & C++.
>Once you get a grip on VB, Java will be easier to understand. You can assume
>that Java is the direction to go in. C++, while being the most versatile
>across operating systems, is extremely difficult to become proficient in.
> It takes a lot of time and experience.
>
>A degree may not be necessary, however, it is a key to opening many doors.
> I have applied for positions where my experience and skills matched perfectly
>as described with the exception of that degree, only to receive a letter
>indicating that they had no openings for someone with my skills. Yea...right.
>
>To establish some credibility, I am employed now as a senior systems analyst/architect.
> All of my education in these areas has been "self-taught". While I do
not
>have a degree, I am considered by my peers and customers as the "go to guy"
>for difficult problems.
>
>
>Hope this helps.
>Mick Mickelson

[Ken Oler]

Hi Lester,

I am an application engineer working at Agilent Technologies - formerly Hewlett
Packard. After reading through the rest of the replies posted - I would
say that your peers are giving you some great advice.

The comment I wanted to add has to do with Programming Methodology rather
than Programming Language. I feel that it is extremely important, especially
for beginners, to have a solid understanding of design principles such as
OOP (Object Oriented Approach). Structuring your code/applications for scalability,
usability, supportability, etc. is more important (to me) than the language
you choose. Once you have mastered your first language you will find that
to code the same algorithm using a different language is just a matter of
syntax – they all support “if” statements, “loops”, etc.. The point is -
no matter which language you choose, if your writing spaghetti code your
applications will suffer and your users will not be happy campers.

Also, before you get started should ask yourself this question: What type
of programming am I most interested in? UNIX, Windows, Internet, etc. Answering
that question will help drive which path to follow.

As with the other respondents, I don’t think you can go wrong starting with
VB – (sorry UNIX users – although I believe there is a UNIX version of VB
out there somewhere). I don’t know what your learning style is but if you
are the self motivated, self teaching, kind of guy – look for a VB starter
book that includes the Learning Edition VB Compiler. If you are not a self-starter
or self-teacher, I would consider a different career path. To keep up with
the rapid change of technology you have to be both self-motivated and able
to learn/grasp new concepts by reading (or in my case be very stubborn).
If you can’t find a book that includes the VB Compiler you can pick it up
for about $100.00 – the Learning Edition lets you compile and run applications
on your desktop, you just can’t distribute your apps.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/pro...se/pricing.asp

Good Luck,
Ken Oler

[John Timney (MVP)]

Got to agree with Kens comments...and the rest too.

I do many of the technical interviews for one of the largest IT companies in
the UK, from graduate to experienced. We look for an ability rather than a
specific langauge, but I have to agree that VB is easier to learn than Java,
VBScript is even easier to learn than VB - and all free, something like that
and a few good books will teach you all about techniques and structure as
well as the language quirks.

Dont be suckered into the Java/jsp / VB/asp argument - it doesn't exist in
the real world because projects are task driven rather than technology
driven. One thing I would say seems to becoming more apparant - the biggest
shortage in the industry without a doubt is for web / server side
developers - if you can aquire some skills in that then upward mobility
follows because of the skills shortages. If you have no experience in
developing, start with something like xhtml, then learn how to script - (asp
or jsp), then learn how to program (vb - java) and learn how to integrate
technologies, (dont forget the databases)...and make lots of use of the
newsgroups and developer sites cos there is a lot of free help out there for
the taking.

Regards

John Timney (MVP)
Co Author Pro JSP


Ken Oler <ken_oler@agilent.com> wrote in message
news:3947a090$1@news.devx.com...
>
> Hi Lester,
>
> I am an application engineer working at Agilent Technologies - formerly
Hewlett
> Packard. After reading through the rest of the replies posted - I would
> say that your peers are giving you some great advice.
>
> The comment I wanted to add has to do with Programming Methodology rather
> than Programming Language. I feel that it is extremely important,
especially
> for beginners, to have a solid understanding of design principles such as
> OOP (Object Oriented Approach). Structuring your code/applications for
scalability,
> usability, supportability, etc. is more important (to me) than the
language
> you choose. Once you have mastered your first language you will find that
> to code the same algorithm using a different language is just a matter of
> syntax - they all support "if" statements, "loops", etc.. The point is -
> no matter which language you choose, if your writing spaghetti code your
> applications will suffer and your users will not be happy campers.
>
> Also, before you get started should ask yourself this question: What type
> of programming am I most interested in? UNIX, Windows, Internet, etc.
Answering
> that question will help drive which path to follow.
>
> As with the other respondents, I don't think you can go wrong starting
with
> VB - (sorry UNIX users - although I believe there is a UNIX version of VB
> out there somewhere). I don't know what your learning style is but if you
> are the self motivated, self teaching, kind of guy - look for a VB starter
> book that includes the Learning Edition VB Compiler. If you are not a
self-starter
> or self-teacher, I would consider a different career path. To keep up
with
> the rapid change of technology you have to be both self-motivated and able
> to learn/grasp new concepts by reading (or in my case be very stubborn).
> If you can't find a book that includes the VB Compiler you can pick it up
> for about $100.00 - the Learning Edition lets you compile and run
applications
> on your desktop, you just can't distribute your apps.
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/pro...se/pricing.asp
>
> Good Luck,
> Ken Oler
>

[Mike Reilly]

C++ will last for performance reasons. VB will for ease of learning and
speed of development. Java will for cross platform capabilities (erm, as
much as anything can be cross platform <g>). And if you really want to
optimize those 3d games, asm comes in handy (though compilers are getting
pretty darned good at optimising, I wouldn't put them up against my buddy
Craig, who speaks asm as his first language, but has worked hard and now
does fairly well talking to people in English).


Jim Pragit wrote in message <394657ce$1@news.devx.com>...
>
>Lester,
>
>C++, Java and Visual Basic are the three "big" languages in use today.
There
>are literally hundreds of languages around, but these three comprise about
>90% of the job market. So, if you learn any of these three, you'll do
alright.
>
>
>Pros and Cons: C++ is the hardest of the three and some experts predict its
>use will be dropping off. Java is new and somewhat unproven, but so far
>so good. VB is easy to learn and very straight forward, but MS is the only
>vendor of VB. With MS's current legal problems, I have my doubts whether
>they can deliver the next version of VB on time.
>
>Avoid RPG and Cobol as they're on their way out. Avoid Delphi too. It was
>a good language but never really took off. In the midwest (where I live),
>there are 40 VB jobs for every Delphi job.
>
>In terms of money, I've seen one report that said Java programmers (on
average)
>make about $5-$10 thousand a year more than VB programmers. I'm not sure
>where C++ programmers fit in.
>
>Where to begin? I would recommend going back to school, even if it's only
>for a few night classes at a junior college.
>
>- Jim
>
>"Lester Burnham" <choton@swbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>I will not be going back to the job and industry I was in. I'm starting
>over.
>>
>>Beyound MS Office I know nothing about computer programming, ok
>>some programming from about 20 years ago which doesn't count.
>>
>>Where do I start? Does Java, C++, or some other language offer the best
>>way
>>to get a paying job with some long term career upward mobility?
>>
>>Thanks
>

[Mike Reilly]

OK, while the topic has been breached, maybe I can ask a quick question. I
live in a place that's fairly isolated from the big cities and high tech
centers (central Vancouver Island). Because of this, there were no real
programmers filling the local needs for developers. I did some programming
in university (for fun!), and have done it for a hobby, and now teach info
tech in the local school district. Word got out that I can do some
programming (been with VB since version 1). This has led to a small
consulting business, where I do standalone VB apps (including databases -
Access, SQL Server, etc. 2 and 3 tier), web development (ASP, a little MTX,
HTML a little DHTML, IIS, Exchange Server/VBScript/Outlook), some MS Office
automation, as well as Access programming. I also have done a little
Apache/PHP work, and am now developing C++ and Java basic skills in case I
need them for a project. Recently, I realized I might be getting reasonably
good at this, and have started to think about a carreer move. Am I correct
in thinking that I might be better off writing code than in a teaching job?
I like both of them fine as far as job satisfaction is concerned. Thing is,
I would probably have to move. Just not enough work around here to keep me
working local, and I'm burning the candle at both ends with this dual life.

Hope nobody minds the OT and fairly self centered nature of the question <g>

Regards,
Mike Reilly

John Timney (MVP) wrote in message <3947f61f@news.devx.com>...
>Got to agree with Kens comments...and the rest too.
>
>I do many of the technical interviews for one of the largest IT companies
in
>the UK, from graduate to experienced. We look for an ability rather than a
>specific langauge, but I have to agree that VB is easier to learn than
Java,
>VBScript is even easier to learn than VB - and all free, something like
that
>and a few good books will teach you all about techniques and structure as
>well as the language quirks.
>
>Dont be suckered into the Java/jsp / VB/asp argument - it doesn't exist in
>the real world because projects are task driven rather than technology
>driven. One thing I would say seems to becoming more apparant - the
biggest
>shortage in the industry without a doubt is for web / server side
>developers - if you can aquire some skills in that then upward mobility
>follows because of the skills shortages. If you have no experience in
>developing, start with something like xhtml, then learn how to script -
(asp
>or jsp), then learn how to program (vb - java) and learn how to integrate
>technologies, (dont forget the databases)...and make lots of use of the
>newsgroups and developer sites cos there is a lot of free help out there
for
>the taking.
>
>Regards
>
>John Timney (MVP)
>Co Author Pro JSP
>
>
>Ken Oler <ken_oler@agilent.com> wrote in message
>news:3947a090$1@news.devx.com...
>>
>> Hi Lester,
>>
>> I am an application engineer working at Agilent Technologies - formerly
>Hewlett
>> Packard. After reading through the rest of the replies posted - I would
>> say that your peers are giving you some great advice.
>>
>> The comment I wanted to add has to do with Programming Methodology rather
>> than Programming Language. I feel that it is extremely important,
>especially
>> for beginners, to have a solid understanding of design principles such as
>> OOP (Object Oriented Approach). Structuring your code/applications for
>scalability,
>> usability, supportability, etc. is more important (to me) than the
>language
>> you choose. Once you have mastered your first language you will find
that
>> to code the same algorithm using a different language is just a matter of
>> syntax - they all support "if" statements, "loops", etc.. The point is -
>> no matter which language you choose, if your writing spaghetti code your
>> applications will suffer and your users will not be happy campers.
>>
>> Also, before you get started should ask yourself this question: What type
>> of programming am I most interested in? UNIX, Windows, Internet, etc.
>Answering
>> that question will help drive which path to follow.
>>
>> As with the other respondents, I don't think you can go wrong starting
>with
>> VB - (sorry UNIX users - although I believe there is a UNIX version of VB
>> out there somewhere). I don't know what your learning style is but if
you
>> are the self motivated, self teaching, kind of guy - look for a VB
starter
>> book that includes the Learning Edition VB Compiler. If you are not a
>self-starter
>> or self-teacher, I would consider a different career path. To keep up
>with
>> the rapid change of technology you have to be both self-motivated and
able
>> to learn/grasp new concepts by reading (or in my case be very stubborn).
>> If you can't find a book that includes the VB Compiler you can pick it
up
>> for about $100.00 - the Learning Edition lets you compile and run
>applications
>> on your desktop, you just can't distribute your apps.
>>
>> http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/pro...se/pricing.asp
>>
>> Good Luck,
>> Ken Oler
>>
>
>

[John Timney (MVP)]

I would move, sounds like you have some useful skills......depends on how
much you love teaching I suppose and how nice it is in CVIsland - because
there are places I wouldn't go if they were going to give me Caprice to make
my day more pleasing (well perhaps Caprice would get me to the States if she
begged). The grass may not be greener on the other side, just a murky hay
colour.

But the IT industry has a few years left in it, you can always come back to
teaching, and probably with a lot more real world IT skills to pass on and
its quite easy to move between jobs.

Regards

John Timney (MVP)

Mike Reilly <mike_reilly_no_spam@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3949c386@news.devx.com...
> OK, while the topic has been breached, maybe I can ask a quick question.
I
> live in a place that's fairly isolated from the big cities and high tech
> centers (central Vancouver Island). Because of this, there were no real
> programmers filling the local needs for developers. I did some
programming
> in university (for fun!), and have done it for a hobby, and now teach info
> tech in the local school district. Word got out that I can do some
> programming (been with VB since version 1). This has led to a small
> consulting business, where I do standalone VB apps (including databases -
> Access, SQL Server, etc. 2 and 3 tier), web development (ASP, a little
MTX,
> HTML a little DHTML, IIS, Exchange Server/VBScript/Outlook), some MS
Office
> automation, as well as Access programming. I also have done a little
> Apache/PHP work, and am now developing C++ and Java basic skills in case I
> need them for a project. Recently, I realized I might be getting
reasonably
> good at this, and have started to think about a carreer move. Am I
correct
> in thinking that I might be better off writing code than in a teaching
job?
> I like both of them fine as far as job satisfaction is concerned. Thing
is,
> I would probably have to move. Just not enough work around here to keep
me
> working local, and I'm burning the candle at both ends with this dual
life.
>
> Hope nobody minds the OT and fairly self centered nature of the question
<g>
>
> Regards,
> Mike Reilly
>
> John Timney (MVP) wrote in message <3947f61f@news.devx.com>...
> >Got to agree with Kens comments...and the rest too.
> >
> >I do many of the technical interviews for one of the largest IT companies
> in
> >the UK, from graduate to experienced. We look for an ability rather than
a
> >specific langauge, but I have to agree that VB is easier to learn than
> Java,
> >VBScript is even easier to learn than VB - and all free, something like
> that
> >and a few good books will teach you all about techniques and structure as
> >well as the language quirks.
> >
> >Dont be suckered into the Java/jsp / VB/asp argument - it doesn't exist
in
> >the real world because projects are task driven rather than technology
> >driven. One thing I would say seems to becoming more apparant - the
> biggest
> >shortage in the industry without a doubt is for web / server side
> >developers - if you can aquire some skills in that then upward mobility
> >follows because of the skills shortages. If you have no experience in
> >developing, start with something like xhtml, then learn how to script -
> (asp
> >or jsp), then learn how to program (vb - java) and learn how to integrate
> >technologies, (dont forget the databases)...and make lots of use of the
> >newsgroups and developer sites cos there is a lot of free help out there
> for
> >the taking.
> >
> >Regards
> >
> >John Timney (MVP)
> >Co Author Pro JSP
> >
> >
> >Ken Oler <ken_oler@agilent.com> wrote in message
> >news:3947a090$1@news.devx.com...
> >>
> >> Hi Lester,
> >>
> >> I am an application engineer working at Agilent Technologies - formerly
> >Hewlett
> >> Packard. After reading through the rest of the replies posted - I
would
> >> say that your peers are giving you some great advice.
> >>
> >> The comment I wanted to add has to do with Programming Methodology
rather
> >> than Programming Language. I feel that it is extremely important,
> >especially
> >> for beginners, to have a solid understanding of design principles such
as
> >> OOP (Object Oriented Approach). Structuring your code/applications for
> >scalability,
> >> usability, supportability, etc. is more important (to me) than the
> >language
> >> you choose. Once you have mastered your first language you will find
> that
> >> to code the same algorithm using a different language is just a matter
of
> >> syntax - they all support "if" statements, "loops", etc.. The point
is -
> >> no matter which language you choose, if your writing spaghetti code
your
> >> applications will suffer and your users will not be happy campers.
> >>
> >> Also, before you get started should ask yourself this question: What
type
> >> of programming am I most interested in? UNIX, Windows, Internet, etc.
> >Answering
> >> that question will help drive which path to follow.
> >>
> >> As with the other respondents, I don't think you can go wrong starting
> >with
> >> VB - (sorry UNIX users - although I believe there is a UNIX version of
VB
> >> out there somewhere). I don't know what your learning style is but if
> you
> >> are the self motivated, self teaching, kind of guy - look for a VB
> starter
> >> book that includes the Learning Edition VB Compiler. If you are not a
> >self-starter
> >> or self-teacher, I would consider a different career path. To keep up
> >with
> >> the rapid change of technology you have to be both self-motivated and
> able
> >> to learn/grasp new concepts by reading (or in my case be very
stubborn).
> >> If you can't find a book that includes the VB Compiler you can pick it
> up
> >> for about $100.00 - the Learning Edition lets you compile and run
> >applications
> >> on your desktop, you just can't distribute your apps.
> >>
> >> http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/pro...se/pricing.asp
> >>
> >> Good Luck,
> >> Ken Oler
> >>
> >
> >
>
>