Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


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Thread: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS

  1. #1
    Metal Maniac Guest

    Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


    Hi ,

    I read somewhere that Microsoft are withdrawing support for Java. What does
    this exactly mean and what are the implications to users who only have Windows
    O/S ?

    I just migrated from VB to Java, so I'm now worried whether I'm making a
    big mistake by developing apps in Java.

    Someone please explain.

    Metal Maniac

  2. #2
    Kyle Gabhart Guest

    Re: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


    "Metal Maniac" <metalliam3@mailcity.com> wrote:
    >
    >Hi ,
    >
    >I read somewhere that Microsoft are withdrawing support for Java. What does
    >this exactly mean and what are the implications to users who only have Windows
    >O/S ?
    >
    >I just migrated from VB to Java, so I'm now worried whether I'm making a
    >big mistake by developing apps in Java.
    >
    >Someone please explain.
    >
    >Metal Maniac


    Hello,

    And may I congratulate you for transitioning to a more powerful, more reliable,
    platform-independent, open-source programming language. You have chosen
    well. Have no fear, Java will continue to be platform-independent, and run
    smoothly on Windows O/S. The rumors you have heard most likely originated
    from the recent lawsuit in which Microsoft paid Sun $ 20 million in settlement
    fees and that Microsoft's Java license is being revoked due to a breach of
    the licensing agreement on Microsoft's part. In fact, rather than be a cause
    for concern, this should reassure you that you made the right choice in switching
    to Java. If you'd like to read more about the settlement, you can read the
    following article from Sun's website:
    http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflas...0010123.1.html

    Welcome to the wonderful world of Java!

    Happy Coding!

    Cordially,

    Kyle Gabhart
    DevX Java Pro


  3. #3
    metal maniac Guest

    Re: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


    "Kyle Gabhart" <gabhart@usa.com> wrote:
    >
    >"Metal Maniac" <metalliam3@mailcity.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>Hi ,
    >>
    >>I read somewhere that Microsoft are withdrawing support for Java. What

    does
    >>this exactly mean and what are the implications to users who only have

    Windows
    >>O/S ?
    >>
    >>I just migrated from VB to Java, so I'm now worried whether I'm making

    a
    >>big mistake by developing apps in Java.
    >>
    >>Someone please explain.
    >>
    >>Metal Maniac

    >
    >Hello,
    >
    >And may I congratulate you for transitioning to a more powerful, more reliable,
    >platform-independent, open-source programming language. You have chosen
    >well. Have no fear, Java will continue to be platform-independent, and

    run
    >smoothly on Windows O/S. The rumors you have heard most likely originated
    >from the recent lawsuit in which Microsoft paid Sun $ 20 million in settlement
    >fees and that Microsoft's Java license is being revoked due to a breach

    of
    >the licensing agreement on Microsoft's part. In fact, rather than be a

    cause
    >for concern, this should reassure you that you made the right choice in

    switching
    >to Java. If you'd like to read more about the settlement, you can read

    the
    >following article from Sun's website:
    >http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflas...0010123.1.html
    >
    >Welcome to the wonderful world of Java!
    >
    >Happy Coding!
    >
    >Cordially,
    >
    >Kyle Gabhart
    >DevX Java Pro
    >


    Hi,

    Once more, thanks Ed.

    Metal Maniac

  4. #4
    andy Guest

    Re: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


    >
    >Hello,
    >
    >And may I congratulate you for transitioning to a more powerful, more reliable,
    >platform-independent, open-source programming language. You have chosen
    >well. Have no fear, Java will continue to be platform-independent, and

    run
    >smoothly on Windows O/S. The rumors you have heard most likely originated
    >from the recent lawsuit in which Microsoft paid Sun $ 20 million in settlement
    >fees and that Microsoft's Java license is being revoked due to a breach

    of
    >the licensing agreement on Microsoft's part. In fact, rather than be a

    cause
    >for concern, this should reassure you that you made the right choice in

    switching
    >to Java. If you'd like to read more about the settlement, you can read

    the
    >following article from Sun's website:
    >http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflas...0010123.1.html
    >
    >Welcome to the wonderful world of Java!
    >
    >Happy Coding!
    >
    >Cordially,
    >
    >Kyle Gabhart
    >DevX Java Pro
    >


    Java is not "more powerful" and it is definitely not "open source". How can
    something that runs in a sandbox with no direct access to system libraries
    be more powerful? And how can it be open source since Sun pulled out from
    ECMA? If you call their community process open source... yea right, what
    a joke. It means that people can request new features, but Sun ultimately
    still makes the decisions. I'd hardly call that open source. More like a
    dictatorship that takes requests.

    "More reliable"... yea right, haven't you ever heard of "write once, debug
    everywhere".

    And yes, Java will continue to run on Windows, but only at the JDK 1.1 level
    (due to the lawsuit). It won't be long before you Java heads get sick of
    writing distributed apps for the lowest common denominator (kinda like web
    developers had to do w/ Netscape). What's even funnier is that Sun really
    shot themselves in the foot with that $20 million lawsuit. How? Because rumor
    has it that IE 6.0 will NOT ship a JVM. And since IE has 90% market share,
    you can kiss your applets bye-bye!

    I feel sorry for you brainwashed Java people. Let's face it, the only place
    where Java is marginally acceptable is on the server. Applets are an artifact
    of the past and Swing/GUI apps are totally pathetic. So now that we've established
    that Java is only useful on the server, let's discuss the cross-platform
    issue. How many times have you ACTUALLY moved your Java code to different
    platforms? Seriously, I'll bet none. Or at the most only between Unix and
    Linux (which are basically the same anyway). That's because no one in their
    right mind would use Java on the server in a Windows environment, so even
    your cross-platform argument is weak.

    Learn a real language, like C++. The language is cross-platform, it's powerful,
    lightweight (ie. no big fat JVMs to lug around), and you don't have to deal
    with the political nonsense between all these companies... it's universally
    accepted. Hmmm, come to think of it, what was Java written in... C/C++.


  5. #5
    Thomas Schaefer Guest

    Re: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


    >>I just migrated from VB to Java, so I'm now worried whether I'm making a
    >>big mistake by developing apps in Java.


    Hello,
    I'm developing software for the Windows platform
    since the early 16 Bit 3.0 version and more and more
    Java modules in the last few years.

    I feel very comfortable in all 3 languages C/C++, VB
    and Java. Which language I'm using heavily
    depends on my customer - he tells me...

    But I'm also writing (client) programs for customers in a "black
    box" - they don't care about the underlying technology -
    all they want is a fast, light, easy to operate and fully
    integrated application for their users - and that always meant they
    want a Win32 frontend running under Win95/98/NT/2000/ME.

    In that case - that means when I have the choice - I would never ever
    use Java - AWT or Swing doesn't matter. The result will always be
    lame compared to a well written native application - and I really know
    what I'm talking about - in the meanwhile I know the swing framework as
    good as the MFC.

    Since you moved from VB to Java I assume your target platform is Win32 and
    you
    have to write frontends. In that case I'm really afraid you made a big mistake.

    (Have you already started to ship your application to hundreds/thousands
    of customers?
    Then I guess your hotline already burst as a result of calls related to JVM
    problems)

    From an academic point of view Java is a better choice than VB (and maybe
    C++ too).
    But hey, I'm not sitting in an univerity lecture, I have to develop real
    world applications
    for real people. If I tried to sale them Java GUIs my name would become a
    synonym for
    memory hungry, slow and only partially integrated applications which would
    push my out of business very soon.

    That having been said, I have to agree with the last section of Andy's posting.
    It's true, you can't have more power, freedom and possiblities to express
    yourself than with C++.
    You won't get lighter and faster executables using another high-level language.
    C++ is harder to learn and understand but if you mastered it, there are no
    limits.

    Thomas.

  6. #6
    Morten Dahl Guest

    Re: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


    "andy" <andy@zr1.com> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>Hello,
    >>
    >>And may I congratulate you for transitioning to a more powerful, more reliable,
    >>platform-independent, open-source programming language. You have chosen
    >>well. Have no fear, Java will continue to be platform-independent, and

    >run
    >>smoothly on Windows O/S. The rumors you have heard most likely originated
    >>from the recent lawsuit in which Microsoft paid Sun $ 20 million in settlement
    >>fees and that Microsoft's Java license is being revoked due to a breach

    >of
    >>the licensing agreement on Microsoft's part. In fact, rather than be a

    >cause
    >>for concern, this should reassure you that you made the right choice in

    >switching
    >>to Java. If you'd like to read more about the settlement, you can read

    >the
    >>following article from Sun's website:
    >>http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflas...0010123.1.html
    >>
    >>Welcome to the wonderful world of Java!
    >>
    >>Happy Coding!
    >>
    >>Cordially,
    >>
    >>Kyle Gabhart
    >>DevX Java Pro
    >>

    >
    >Java is not "more powerful" and it is definitely not "open source". How

    can
    >something that runs in a sandbox with no direct access to system libraries
    >be more powerful? And how can it be open source since Sun pulled out from
    >ECMA? If you call their community process open source... yea right, what
    >a joke. It means that people can request new features, but Sun ultimately
    >still makes the decisions. I'd hardly call that open source. More like a
    >dictatorship that takes requests.
    >
    >"More reliable"... yea right, haven't you ever heard of "write once, debug
    >everywhere".
    >
    >And yes, Java will continue to run on Windows, but only at the JDK 1.1 level
    >(due to the lawsuit). It won't be long before you Java heads get sick of
    >writing distributed apps for the lowest common denominator (kinda like web
    >developers had to do w/ Netscape). What's even funnier is that Sun really
    >shot themselves in the foot with that $20 million lawsuit. How? Because

    rumor
    >has it that IE 6.0 will NOT ship a JVM. And since IE has 90% market share,
    >you can kiss your applets bye-bye!
    >
    >I feel sorry for you brainwashed Java people. Let's face it, the only place
    >where Java is marginally acceptable is on the server. Applets are an artifact
    >of the past and Swing/GUI apps are totally pathetic. So now that we've established
    >that Java is only useful on the server, let's discuss the cross-platform
    >issue. How many times have you ACTUALLY moved your Java code to different
    >platforms? Seriously, I'll bet none. Or at the most only between Unix and
    >Linux (which are basically the same anyway). That's because no one in their
    >right mind would use Java on the server in a Windows environment, so even
    >your cross-platform argument is weak.
    >
    >Learn a real language, like C++. The language is cross-platform, it's powerful,
    >lightweight (ie. no big fat JVMs to lug around), and you don't have to deal
    >with the political nonsense between all these companies... it's universally
    >accepted. Hmmm, come to think of it, what was Java written in... C/C++.
    >


    Hello

    I agree on what you are saying Andy, but I was just wondering how to relate
    Microsoft's new langauge, C#, to Java and VB?
    It is a mixture of VB and C++ and Java, and have some advantages over every
    langauge (I was told). And it provides some sort of cross-platform.

    But, as I have understood, it runs on top of a virtual machine and then suffers
    from the same thing as Java (and VB).

    Could C# replace C++, or is C++ still that more powerfull than C#? If you
    are to write some really powerfull applications, you have to use C++ ?

    Morten

  7. #7
    Paul Clapham Guest

    Re: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


    andy <andy@zr1.com> wrote in message news:3a8e0671$1@news.devx.com...

    > And yes, Java will continue to run on Windows, but only at the JDK 1.1

    level
    > (due to the lawsuit).


    I've been running JDK 1.3 level Java on Windows for several months now.
    True, the JDK didn't come from Microsoft, but it works just as well as if it
    did.

    > So now that we've established
    > that Java is only useful on the server, let's discuss the cross-platform
    > issue. How many times have you ACTUALLY moved your Java code to different
    > platforms? Seriously, I'll bet none. Or at the most only between Unix and
    > Linux (which are basically the same anyway). That's because no one in

    their
    > right mind would use Java on the server in a Windows environment, so even
    > your cross-platform argument is weak.


    Earlier this month, in fact. We piloted our server application in Java
    under IIS (I think I'm in my right mind, but others may disagree), then
    moved part of it to AS/400, where the database resides. And I regularly
    create and debug Java applications on the PC and then implement them on
    AS/400.

    > Learn a real language, like C++.


    Better still, learn several real languages.




  8. #8
    andy Guest

    Re: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


    "Morten Dahl" <mortenjorgensen@esenet.dk> wrote:
    >
    >Hello
    >
    >I agree on what you are saying Andy, but I was just wondering how to relate
    >Microsoft's new langauge, C#, to Java and VB?
    >It is a mixture of VB and C++ and Java, and have some advantages over every
    >langauge (I was told). And it provides some sort of cross-platform.
    >
    >But, as I have understood, it runs on top of a virtual machine and then

    suffers
    >from the same thing as Java (and VB).
    >
    >Could C# replace C++, or is C++ still that more powerfull than C#? If you
    >are to write some really powerfull applications, you have to use C++ ?
    >
    >Morten


    Yes, C# is very Java-like in terms of syntax, and yes it depends on the Common
    Language Runtime (CLR), which right now is only available for Windows (although
    that is rumored to change in the future). Otherwise, I don't know enough
    about the CLR to compare it to the JVM.

    There is a popular misconception, however, that VB runs on a virtual machine.
    This is simply not true. Yes, VB depends on the MSVBVM dll (MS VB Virtual
    Machine), but this dll was misfortunately named (because it's not really
    a "virtual machine"). Think of it as the VB version of the MFC dll. Both
    provide the libraries required by their respective programs to run. But that's
    it, they are NOT interpreters nor JITs (like the JVM), they are just code
    libraries, which hardly makes them "virtual machines". The executables are
    natively compiled. The reason I'm making this point is because VB should
    NEVER be compared to Java in the sense that both use VMs, therefore, both
    suffer similar performance penalties. In fact, I've seen benchmarks where
    most VB apps run only 10% slower that VC++ apps.


  9. #9
    Rob Gamble Guest

    Re: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS



    I think after closer inspection we will all find that C# and VB.NET are the
    new face on the old J++ engine.

    Looks like they put all that new Java code they wrote for J++ 6.0 to good
    use, got out from underneath the license infringement and made JSP-style
    development their new approach.

    Your thoughts?


    "andy" <andy@zr1.com> wrote:
    >
    >"Morten Dahl" <mortenjorgensen@esenet.dk> wrote:
    >>
    >>Hello
    >>
    >>I agree on what you are saying Andy, but I was just wondering how to relate
    >>Microsoft's new langauge, C#, to Java and VB?
    >>It is a mixture of VB and C++ and Java, and have some advantages over every
    >>langauge (I was told). And it provides some sort of cross-platform.
    >>
    >>But, as I have understood, it runs on top of a virtual machine and then

    >suffers
    >>from the same thing as Java (and VB).
    >>
    >>Could C# replace C++, or is C++ still that more powerfull than C#? If you
    >>are to write some really powerfull applications, you have to use C++ ?
    >>
    >>Morten

    >
    >Yes, C# is very Java-like in terms of syntax, and yes it depends on the

    Common
    >Language Runtime (CLR), which right now is only available for Windows (although
    >that is rumored to change in the future). Otherwise, I don't know enough
    >about the CLR to compare it to the JVM.
    >
    >There is a popular misconception, however, that VB runs on a virtual machine.
    >This is simply not true. Yes, VB depends on the MSVBVM dll (MS VB Virtual
    >Machine), but this dll was misfortunately named (because it's not really
    >a "virtual machine"). Think of it as the VB version of the MFC dll. Both
    >provide the libraries required by their respective programs to run. But

    that's
    >it, they are NOT interpreters nor JITs (like the JVM), they are just code
    >libraries, which hardly makes them "virtual machines". The executables are
    >natively compiled. The reason I'm making this point is because VB should
    >NEVER be compared to Java in the sense that both use VMs, therefore, both
    >suffer similar performance penalties. In fact, I've seen benchmarks where
    >most VB apps run only 10% slower that VC++ apps.
    >



  10. #10
    tom wible Guest

    Re: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


    "andy" <andy@zr1.com> wrote:

    >something that runs in a sandbox with no direct access to system libraries


    ur ignorance is showing, andy...only applets run in the sandbox, apps don't

    have those limitations, and those limits only apply to d/l'd applets, applets
    residing on the user's machine have fewer limits...

    >dictatorship that takes requests.


    u r talking about microsoft, right;-)

    >And yes, Java will continue to run on Windows, but only at the JDK 1.1 level


    u really r outta touch w/reality;-)

    >issue. How many times have you ACTUALLY moved your Java code to different
    >platforms? Seriously, I'll bet none. Or at the most only between Unix and


    i helped write an event-driven simulation, ~15k java loc, w/swing gui, and
    it
    runs identically on all platforms, li/unix, solaris, irix, & 'doze/nt/98/95,

    with no problems, completely acceptable gui performance, plug&play...try
    that
    w/c;-)

    >Learn a real language, like C++. The language is cross-platform, it's powerful,


    don't forget: corruption starts with C...cowboy, 2;-)

  11. #11
    ceemar Guest

    Re: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


    BINGO! It (C#) was even (co?)engineered by the same guy who worked J++ (&
    Delphi). I really like J++ 6.0 too, very fast and intuitive... and with the
    mouselistener crapola! C# seems more like a horror mismatch of C++ & J++...
    they even allow pointers and gotos... oh well, at least it's close enough
    to J++ to seem enjoyable. One of Java's (of many) problems was no headers...
    not sure if C# handles that.

    Speaking of Delphi, as a off-topic comment I think Inprise may actually come
    back fighting with Kylix (Delphi ala Linux) if it's everything it could be...
    it certainly may bite into Java on the Linux side of things. Thoughts?



    "Rob Gamble" <robgamble@robgamble.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >I think after closer inspection we will all find that C# and VB.NET are

    the
    >new face on the old J++ engine.
    >
    >Looks like they put all that new Java code they wrote for J++ 6.0 to good
    >use, got out from underneath the license infringement and made JSP-style
    >development their new approach.
    >
    >Your thoughts?
    >
    >
    >"andy" <andy@zr1.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>"Morten Dahl" <mortenjorgensen@esenet.dk> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>Hello
    >>>
    >>>I agree on what you are saying Andy, but I was just wondering how to relate
    >>>Microsoft's new langauge, C#, to Java and VB?
    >>>It is a mixture of VB and C++ and Java, and have some advantages over

    every
    >>>langauge (I was told). And it provides some sort of cross-platform.
    >>>
    >>>But, as I have understood, it runs on top of a virtual machine and then

    >>suffers
    >>>from the same thing as Java (and VB).
    >>>
    >>>Could C# replace C++, or is C++ still that more powerfull than C#? If

    you
    >>>are to write some really powerfull applications, you have to use C++ ?
    >>>
    >>>Morten

    >>
    >>Yes, C# is very Java-like in terms of syntax, and yes it depends on the

    >Common
    >>Language Runtime (CLR), which right now is only available for Windows (although
    >>that is rumored to change in the future). Otherwise, I don't know enough
    >>about the CLR to compare it to the JVM.
    >>
    >>There is a popular misconception, however, that VB runs on a virtual machine.
    >>This is simply not true. Yes, VB depends on the MSVBVM dll (MS VB Virtual
    >>Machine), but this dll was misfortunately named (because it's not really
    >>a "virtual machine"). Think of it as the VB version of the MFC dll. Both
    >>provide the libraries required by their respective programs to run. But

    >that's
    >>it, they are NOT interpreters nor JITs (like the JVM), they are just code
    >>libraries, which hardly makes them "virtual machines". The executables

    are
    >>natively compiled. The reason I'm making this point is because VB should
    >>NEVER be compared to Java in the sense that both use VMs, therefore, both
    >>suffer similar performance penalties. In fact, I've seen benchmarks where
    >>most VB apps run only 10% slower that VC++ apps.
    >>

    >



  12. #12
    Thomas Schaefer Guest

    Re: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


    >i helped write an event-driven simulation, ~15k java loc, w/swing gui, and
    >it
    >runs identically on all platforms, li/unix, solaris, irix, & 'doze/nt/98/95,
    >
    >with no problems, completely acceptable gui performance, plug&play...try
    >that
    >w/c;-)


    sure, you migtht achieve platform independence for toy-size applications
    in a short time.

    * what does the 15K size really say? it's probably less than 5K Java lines
    of code, that's all. how much memory does your tiny app eat at runtime? (tip
    for nt: you will find it faster if you sort the processes in the task manager
    for "Mem Usage" and look in the first lines for java.exe or javaw.exe ;-)
    * it's nice to run an appliation under irix, solaris and my toaster. the
    question is: who actually needs that? do you have enough customers heavily
    working with GUIs on that platforms? only if this is a clear 'yes', than
    it might make sense.
    * your "no problems and plug&play" is simply a nice dream considering bigger
    applications (a few 100,000 lines of code, print/~preview support, multiple
    fonts to use...).

  13. #13
    Mickey Segal Guest

    Re: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


    I had heard the same rumor about IE 6.0 not using the Microsoft Java
    Virtual Machine. I had the opportunity to ask a friend in a senior position
    at Microsoft to check out the rumor. I got back a message, copied to 4 people
    at Microsoft, saying "As with IE5.5, we expect a seamless Microsoft VM experience
    in IE6". So it looks like there is some breathing space here.

    "andy" <andy@zr1.com> wrote:
    >
    > What's even funnier is that Sun really shot themselves in the foot with
    > that $20 million lawsuit. How? Because rumor has it that IE 6.0 will NOT
    > ship a JVM. And since IE has 90% market share, you can kiss your applets
    > bye-bye!



  14. #14
    tom wible Guest

    Re: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


    >sure, you migtht achieve platform independence for toy-size applications


    u betray ur lack of appreciation 4 the power of java: a 15Kloc app is no

    toy...i wasn't counting all the supporting classes we didn't have to write;-)
    what takes 100kloc in c++ can be done much more economically, &
    maintainably, in fewer lines of java...

  15. #15
    tom wible Guest

    Re: Sun vs Microsoft: SOS


    >Learn a real language, like C++. The language is cross-platform, it's powerful,


    xsqueezeme??? x-platform??? sure, if u want 2 maintaina separate version
    4
    every platform:-P as my co-worker shel sez:

    Is this guy arguing that C++ simply runs cross-platform with no code
    changes?!!! I can't even get some basic Linux C++ code to run on Solaris
    and Irix without major edits!!! Why? Because to get anything interesting
    done, I have to interface with the OS and each OS has a different
    interface!!! Java hides almost all this dependence within it's virtual
    machine.

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