Sun vs Microsoft: SOS

[Metal Maniac]

Hi ,

I read somewhere that Microsoft are withdrawing support for Java. What does
this exactly mean and what are the implications to users who only have Windows
O/S ?

I just migrated from VB to Java, so I'm now worried whether I'm making a
big mistake by developing apps in Java.

Someone please explain.

Metal Maniac

[Kyle Gabhart]

"Metal Maniac" <metalliam3@mailcity.com> wrote:
>
>Hi ,
>
>I read somewhere that Microsoft are withdrawing support for Java. What does
>this exactly mean and what are the implications to users who only have Windows
>O/S ?
>
>I just migrated from VB to Java, so I'm now worried whether I'm making a
>big mistake by developing apps in Java.
>
>Someone please explain.
>
>Metal Maniac

Hello,

And may I congratulate you for transitioning to a more powerful, more reliable,
platform-independent, open-source programming language. You have chosen
well. Have no fear, Java will continue to be platform-independent, and run
smoothly on Windows O/S. The rumors you have heard most likely originated
from the recent lawsuit in which Microsoft paid Sun $ 20 million in settlement
fees and that Microsoft's Java license is being revoked due to a breach of
the licensing agreement on Microsoft's part. In fact, rather than be a cause
for concern, this should reassure you that you made the right choice in switching
to Java. If you'd like to read more about the settlement, you can read the
following article from Sun's website:
http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflas...0010123.1.html

Welcome to the wonderful world of Java!

Happy Coding!

Cordially,

Kyle Gabhart
DevX Java Pro

[metal maniac]

"Kyle Gabhart" <gabhart@usa.com> wrote:
>
>"Metal Maniac" <metalliam3@mailcity.com> wrote:
>>
>>Hi ,
>>
>>I read somewhere that Microsoft are withdrawing support for Java. What
does
>>this exactly mean and what are the implications to users who only have
Windows
>>O/S ?
>>
>>I just migrated from VB to Java, so I'm now worried whether I'm making
a
>>big mistake by developing apps in Java.
>>
>>Someone please explain.
>>
>>Metal Maniac
>
>Hello,
>
>And may I congratulate you for transitioning to a more powerful, more reliable,
>platform-independent, open-source programming language. You have chosen
>well. Have no fear, Java will continue to be platform-independent, and
run
>smoothly on Windows O/S. The rumors you have heard most likely originated
>from the recent lawsuit in which Microsoft paid Sun $ 20 million in settlement
>fees and that Microsoft's Java license is being revoked due to a breach
of
>the licensing agreement on Microsoft's part. In fact, rather than be a
cause
>for concern, this should reassure you that you made the right choice in
switching
>to Java. If you'd like to read more about the settlement, you can read
the
>following article from Sun's website:
>http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflas...0010123.1.html
>
>Welcome to the wonderful world of Java!
>
>Happy Coding!
>
>Cordially,
>
>Kyle Gabhart
>DevX Java Pro
>

Hi,

Once more, thanks Ed.

Metal Maniac

[andy]

>
>Hello,
>
>And may I congratulate you for transitioning to a more powerful, more reliable,
>platform-independent, open-source programming language. You have chosen
>well. Have no fear, Java will continue to be platform-independent, and
run
>smoothly on Windows O/S. The rumors you have heard most likely originated
>from the recent lawsuit in which Microsoft paid Sun $ 20 million in settlement
>fees and that Microsoft's Java license is being revoked due to a breach
of
>the licensing agreement on Microsoft's part. In fact, rather than be a
cause
>for concern, this should reassure you that you made the right choice in
switching
>to Java. If you'd like to read more about the settlement, you can read
the
>following article from Sun's website:
>http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflas...0010123.1.html
>
>Welcome to the wonderful world of Java!
>
>Happy Coding!
>
>Cordially,
>
>Kyle Gabhart
>DevX Java Pro
>

Java is not "more powerful" and it is definitely not "open source". How can
something that runs in a sandbox with no direct access to system libraries
be more powerful? And how can it be open source since Sun pulled out from
ECMA? If you call their community process open source... yea right, what
a joke. It means that people can request new features, but Sun ultimately
still makes the decisions. I'd hardly call that open source. More like a
dictatorship that takes requests.

"More reliable"... yea right, haven't you ever heard of "write once, debug
everywhere".

And yes, Java will continue to run on Windows, but only at the JDK 1.1 level
(due to the lawsuit). It won't be long before you Java heads get sick of
writing distributed apps for the lowest common denominator (kinda like web
developers had to do w/ Netscape). What's even funnier is that Sun really
shot themselves in the foot with that $20 million lawsuit. How? Because rumor
has it that IE 6.0 will NOT ship a JVM. And since IE has 90% market share,
you can kiss your applets bye-bye!

I feel sorry for you brainwashed Java people. Let's face it, the only place
where Java is marginally acceptable is on the server. Applets are an artifact
of the past and Swing/GUI apps are totally pathetic. So now that we've established
that Java is only useful on the server, let's discuss the cross-platform
issue. How many times have you ACTUALLY moved your Java code to different
platforms? Seriously, I'll bet none. Or at the most only between Unix and
Linux (which are basically the same anyway). That's because no one in their
right mind would use Java on the server in a Windows environment, so even
your cross-platform argument is weak.

Learn a real language, like C++. The language is cross-platform, it's powerful,
lightweight (ie. no big fat JVMs to lug around), and you don't have to deal
with the political nonsense between all these companies... it's universally
accepted. Hmmm, come to think of it, what was Java written in... C/C++.

[Thomas Schaefer]

>>I just migrated from VB to Java, so I'm now worried whether I'm making a
>>big mistake by developing apps in Java.

Hello,
I'm developing software for the Windows platform
since the early 16 Bit 3.0 version and more and more
Java modules in the last few years.

I feel very comfortable in all 3 languages C/C++, VB
and Java. Which language I'm using heavily
depends on my customer - he tells me...

But I'm also writing (client) programs for customers in a "black
box" - they don't care about the underlying technology -
all they want is a fast, light, easy to operate and fully
integrated application for their users - and that always meant they
want a Win32 frontend running under Win95/98/NT/2000/ME.

In that case - that means when I have the choice - I would never ever
use Java - AWT or Swing doesn't matter. The result will always be
lame compared to a well written native application - and I really know
what I'm talking about - in the meanwhile I know the swing framework as
good as the MFC.

Since you moved from VB to Java I assume your target platform is Win32 and
you
have to write frontends. In that case I'm really afraid you made a big mistake.

(Have you already started to ship your application to hundreds/thousands
of customers?
Then I guess your hotline already burst as a result of calls related to JVM
problems)

From an academic point of view Java is a better choice than VB (and maybe
C++ too).
But hey, I'm not sitting in an univerity lecture, I have to develop real
world applications
for real people. If I tried to sale them Java GUIs my name would become a
synonym for
memory hungry, slow and only partially integrated applications which would
push my out of business very soon.

That having been said, I have to agree with the last section of Andy's posting.
It's true, you can't have more power, freedom and possiblities to express
yourself than with C++.
You won't get lighter and faster executables using another high-level language.
C++ is harder to learn and understand but if you mastered it, there are no
limits.

Thomas.

[Morten Dahl]

"andy" <andy@zr1.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Hello,
>>
>>And may I congratulate you for transitioning to a more powerful, more reliable,
>>platform-independent, open-source programming language. You have chosen
>>well. Have no fear, Java will continue to be platform-independent, and
>run
>>smoothly on Windows O/S. The rumors you have heard most likely originated
>>from the recent lawsuit in which Microsoft paid Sun $ 20 million in settlement
>>fees and that Microsoft's Java license is being revoked due to a breach
>of
>>the licensing agreement on Microsoft's part. In fact, rather than be a
>cause
>>for concern, this should reassure you that you made the right choice in
>switching
>>to Java. If you'd like to read more about the settlement, you can read
>the
>>following article from Sun's website:
>>http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflas...0010123.1.html
>>
>>Welcome to the wonderful world of Java!
>>
>>Happy Coding!
>>
>>Cordially,
>>
>>Kyle Gabhart
>>DevX Java Pro
>>
>
>Java is not "more powerful" and it is definitely not "open source". How
can
>something that runs in a sandbox with no direct access to system libraries
>be more powerful? And how can it be open source since Sun pulled out from
>ECMA? If you call their community process open source... yea right, what
>a joke. It means that people can request new features, but Sun ultimately
>still makes the decisions. I'd hardly call that open source. More like a
>dictatorship that takes requests.
>
>"More reliable"... yea right, haven't you ever heard of "write once, debug
>everywhere".
>
>And yes, Java will continue to run on Windows, but only at the JDK 1.1 level
>(due to the lawsuit). It won't be long before you Java heads get sick of
>writing distributed apps for the lowest common denominator (kinda like web
>developers had to do w/ Netscape). What's even funnier is that Sun really
>shot themselves in the foot with that $20 million lawsuit. How? Because
rumor
>has it that IE 6.0 will NOT ship a JVM. And since IE has 90% market share,
>you can kiss your applets bye-bye!
>
>I feel sorry for you brainwashed Java people. Let's face it, the only place
>where Java is marginally acceptable is on the server. Applets are an artifact
>of the past and Swing/GUI apps are totally pathetic. So now that we've established
>that Java is only useful on the server, let's discuss the cross-platform
>issue. How many times have you ACTUALLY moved your Java code to different
>platforms? Seriously, I'll bet none. Or at the most only between Unix and
>Linux (which are basically the same anyway). That's because no one in their
>right mind would use Java on the server in a Windows environment, so even
>your cross-platform argument is weak.
>
>Learn a real language, like C++. The language is cross-platform, it's powerful,
>lightweight (ie. no big fat JVMs to lug around), and you don't have to deal
>with the political nonsense between all these companies... it's universally
>accepted. Hmmm, come to think of it, what was Java written in... C/C++.
>

Hello

I agree on what you are saying Andy, but I was just wondering how to relate
Microsoft's new langauge, C#, to Java and VB?
It is a mixture of VB and C++ and Java, and have some advantages over every
langauge (I was told). And it provides some sort of cross-platform.

But, as I have understood, it runs on top of a virtual machine and then suffers
from the same thing as Java (and VB).

Could C# replace C++, or is C++ still that more powerfull than C#? If you
are to write some really powerfull applications, you have to use C++ ?

Morten

[Paul Clapham]

andy <andy@zr1.com> wrote in message news:3a8e0671$1@news.devx.com...

> And yes, Java will continue to run on Windows, but only at the JDK 1.1
level
> (due to the lawsuit).

I've been running JDK 1.3 level Java on Windows for several months now.
True, the JDK didn't come from Microsoft, but it works just as well as if it
did.

> So now that we've established
> that Java is only useful on the server, let's discuss the cross-platform
> issue. How many times have you ACTUALLY moved your Java code to different
> platforms? Seriously, I'll bet none. Or at the most only between Unix and
> Linux (which are basically the same anyway). That's because no one in
their
> right mind would use Java on the server in a Windows environment, so even
> your cross-platform argument is weak.

Earlier this month, in fact. We piloted our server application in Java
under IIS (I think I'm in my right mind, but others may disagree), then
moved part of it to AS/400, where the database resides. And I regularly
create and debug Java applications on the PC and then implement them on
AS/400.

> Learn a real language, like C++.

Better still, learn several real languages.

[andy]

"Morten Dahl" <mortenjorgensen@esenet.dk> wrote:
>
>Hello
>
>I agree on what you are saying Andy, but I was just wondering how to relate
>Microsoft's new langauge, C#, to Java and VB?
>It is a mixture of VB and C++ and Java, and have some advantages over every
>langauge (I was told). And it provides some sort of cross-platform.
>
>But, as I have understood, it runs on top of a virtual machine and then
suffers
>from the same thing as Java (and VB).
>
>Could C# replace C++, or is C++ still that more powerfull than C#? If you
>are to write some really powerfull applications, you have to use C++ ?
>
>Morten

Yes, C# is very Java-like in terms of syntax, and yes it depends on the Common
Language Runtime (CLR), which right now is only available for Windows (although
that is rumored to change in the future). Otherwise, I don't know enough
about the CLR to compare it to the JVM.

There is a popular misconception, however, that VB runs on a virtual machine.
This is simply not true. Yes, VB depends on the MSVBVM dll (MS VB Virtual
Machine), but this dll was misfortunately named (because it's not really
a "virtual machine"). Think of it as the VB version of the MFC dll. Both
provide the libraries required by their respective programs to run. But that's
it, they are NOT interpreters nor JITs (like the JVM), they are just code
libraries, which hardly makes them "virtual machines". The executables are
natively compiled. The reason I'm making this point is because VB should
NEVER be compared to Java in the sense that both use VMs, therefore, both
suffer similar performance penalties. In fact, I've seen benchmarks where
most VB apps run only 10% slower that VC++ apps.

[Rob Gamble]

I think after closer inspection we will all find that C# and VB.NET are the
new face on the old J++ engine.

Looks like they put all that new Java code they wrote for J++ 6.0 to good
use, got out from underneath the license infringement and made JSP-style
development their new approach.

Your thoughts?


"andy" <andy@zr1.com> wrote:
>
>"Morten Dahl" <mortenjorgensen@esenet.dk> wrote:
>>
>>Hello
>>
>>I agree on what you are saying Andy, but I was just wondering how to relate
>>Microsoft's new langauge, C#, to Java and VB?
>>It is a mixture of VB and C++ and Java, and have some advantages over every
>>langauge (I was told). And it provides some sort of cross-platform.
>>
>>But, as I have understood, it runs on top of a virtual machine and then
>suffers
>>from the same thing as Java (and VB).
>>
>>Could C# replace C++, or is C++ still that more powerfull than C#? If you
>>are to write some really powerfull applications, you have to use C++ ?
>>
>>Morten
>
>Yes, C# is very Java-like in terms of syntax, and yes it depends on the
Common
>Language Runtime (CLR), which right now is only available for Windows (although
>that is rumored to change in the future). Otherwise, I don't know enough
>about the CLR to compare it to the JVM.
>
>There is a popular misconception, however, that VB runs on a virtual machine.
>This is simply not true. Yes, VB depends on the MSVBVM dll (MS VB Virtual
>Machine), but this dll was misfortunately named (because it's not really
>a "virtual machine"). Think of it as the VB version of the MFC dll. Both
>provide the libraries required by their respective programs to run. But
that's
>it, they are NOT interpreters nor JITs (like the JVM), they are just code
>libraries, which hardly makes them "virtual machines". The executables are
>natively compiled. The reason I'm making this point is because VB should
>NEVER be compared to Java in the sense that both use VMs, therefore, both
>suffer similar performance penalties. In fact, I've seen benchmarks where
>most VB apps run only 10% slower that VC++ apps.
>

[tom wible]

"andy" <andy@zr1.com> wrote:

>something that runs in a sandbox with no direct access to system libraries

ur ignorance is showing, andy...only applets run in the sandbox, apps don't

have those limitations, and those limits only apply to d/l'd applets, applets
residing on the user's machine have fewer limits...

>dictatorship that takes requests.

u r talking about microsoft, right;-)

>And yes, Java will continue to run on Windows, but only at the JDK 1.1 level

u really r outta touch w/reality;-)

>issue. How many times have you ACTUALLY moved your Java code to different
>platforms? Seriously, I'll bet none. Or at the most only between Unix and

i helped write an event-driven simulation, ~15k java loc, w/swing gui, and
it
runs identically on all platforms, li/unix, solaris, irix, & 'doze/nt/98/95,

with no problems, completely acceptable gui performance, plug&play...try
that
w/c;-)

>Learn a real language, like C++. The language is cross-platform, it's powerful,

don't forget: corruption starts with C...cowboy, 2;-)

[ceemar]

BINGO! It (C#) was even (co?)engineered by the same guy who worked J++ (&
Delphi). I really like J++ 6.0 too, very fast and intuitive... and with the
mouselistener crapola! C# seems more like a horror mismatch of C++ & J++...
they even allow pointers and gotos... oh well, at least it's close enough
to J++ to seem enjoyable. One of Java's (of many) problems was no headers...
not sure if C# handles that.

Speaking of Delphi, as a off-topic comment I think Inprise may actually come
back fighting with Kylix (Delphi ala Linux) if it's everything it could be...
it certainly may bite into Java on the Linux side of things. Thoughts?



"Rob Gamble" <robgamble@robgamble.com> wrote:
>
>
>I think after closer inspection we will all find that C# and VB.NET are
the
>new face on the old J++ engine.
>
>Looks like they put all that new Java code they wrote for J++ 6.0 to good
>use, got out from underneath the license infringement and made JSP-style
>development their new approach.
>
>Your thoughts?
>
>
>"andy" <andy@zr1.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Morten Dahl" <mortenjorgensen@esenet.dk> wrote:
>>>
>>>Hello
>>>
>>>I agree on what you are saying Andy, but I was just wondering how to relate
>>>Microsoft's new langauge, C#, to Java and VB?
>>>It is a mixture of VB and C++ and Java, and have some advantages over
every
>>>langauge (I was told). And it provides some sort of cross-platform.
>>>
>>>But, as I have understood, it runs on top of a virtual machine and then
>>suffers
>>>from the same thing as Java (and VB).
>>>
>>>Could C# replace C++, or is C++ still that more powerfull than C#? If
you
>>>are to write some really powerfull applications, you have to use C++ ?
>>>
>>>Morten
>>
>>Yes, C# is very Java-like in terms of syntax, and yes it depends on the
>Common
>>Language Runtime (CLR), which right now is only available for Windows (although
>>that is rumored to change in the future). Otherwise, I don't know enough
>>about the CLR to compare it to the JVM.
>>
>>There is a popular misconception, however, that VB runs on a virtual machine.
>>This is simply not true. Yes, VB depends on the MSVBVM dll (MS VB Virtual
>>Machine), but this dll was misfortunately named (because it's not really
>>a "virtual machine"). Think of it as the VB version of the MFC dll. Both
>>provide the libraries required by their respective programs to run. But
>that's
>>it, they are NOT interpreters nor JITs (like the JVM), they are just code
>>libraries, which hardly makes them "virtual machines". The executables
are
>>natively compiled. The reason I'm making this point is because VB should
>>NEVER be compared to Java in the sense that both use VMs, therefore, both
>>suffer similar performance penalties. In fact, I've seen benchmarks where
>>most VB apps run only 10% slower that VC++ apps.
>>
>

[Thomas Schaefer]

>i helped write an event-driven simulation, ~15k java loc, w/swing gui, and
>it
>runs identically on all platforms, li/unix, solaris, irix, & 'doze/nt/98/95,
>
>with no problems, completely acceptable gui performance, plug&play...try
>that
>w/c;-)

sure, you migtht achieve platform independence for toy-size applications
in a short time.

* what does the 15K size really say? it's probably less than 5K Java lines
of code, that's all. how much memory does your tiny app eat at runtime? (tip
for nt: you will find it faster if you sort the processes in the task manager
for "Mem Usage" and look in the first lines for java.exe or javaw.exe ;-)
* it's nice to run an appliation under irix, solaris and my toaster. the
question is: who actually needs that? do you have enough customers heavily
working with GUIs on that platforms? only if this is a clear 'yes', than
it might make sense.
* your "no problems and plug&play" is simply a nice dream considering bigger
applications (a few 100,000 lines of code, print/~preview support, multiple
fonts to use...).

[Mickey Segal]

I had heard the same rumor about IE 6.0 not using the Microsoft Java
Virtual Machine. I had the opportunity to ask a friend in a senior position
at Microsoft to check out the rumor. I got back a message, copied to 4 people
at Microsoft, saying "As with IE5.5, we expect a seamless Microsoft VM experience
in IE6". So it looks like there is some breathing space here.

"andy" <andy@zr1.com> wrote:
>
> What's even funnier is that Sun really shot themselves in the foot with
> that $20 million lawsuit. How? Because rumor has it that IE 6.0 will NOT
> ship a JVM. And since IE has 90% market share, you can kiss your applets
> bye-bye!

[tom wible]

>sure, you migtht achieve platform independence for toy-size applications

u betray ur lack of appreciation 4 the power of java: a 15Kloc app is no

toy...i wasn't counting all the supporting classes we didn't have to write;-)
what takes 100kloc in c++ can be done much more economically, &
maintainably, in fewer lines of java...

[tom wible]

>Learn a real language, like C++. The language is cross-platform, it's powerful,

xsqueezeme??? x-platform??? sure, if u want 2 maintaina separate version
4
every platform:-P as my co-worker shel sez:

Is this guy arguing that C++ simply runs cross-platform with no code
changes?!!! I can't even get some basic Linux C++ code to run on Solaris
and Irix without major edits!!! Why? Because to get anything interesting
done, I have to interface with the OS and each OS has a different
interface!!! Java hides almost all this dependence within it's virtual
machine.