Enter the Java Deconstructionist Period

[Spiker]

Let us assume you own a Wall Street firm and I own a Wall Street firm and
ours is the business of buying and selling stock. We are of the same size
in all aspects and capabilities (this is a Zedenkind Experiment - if my spelling
memory serves me right). That is my analysts are as good as yours. They
are identical in everyway. As a matter of fact they place buy and sell orders
for the exact same stock at the exact same time. ....Except my orders always
get executed first and because of this I am a far better performing firm
than yours.

Why do you ask? Well I lied we are not exactly alike. You see you chose
to develop to a Java platform both on the client and server sides both of
which require a VM and because of this your component parts to your program
run a quarter as fast as mine...alright...alright...half as fast as mine...alright...alright...three
quarters as fast. Thats as generous as I'll get. The point is I still beat
you in placing an order.

Next let us assume we are both manufacturers of some high precision, computer-aided,
manufactured widget. And to make a long story short because your JAVA blah
blah runs slower than my C++ blah blah(and dare I say VB? Nah) you have to
purchase more computers to do the work equivalent to a lesser number of my
computers. Thus my maintenance costs are lower, my network bandwidth requirment
is lower. Yeah great you can have a Sparc Station and a win2k station and
a Linux box and whatever. But where does that get you? Granted as a developer
you can sell your products to more saps with less conversion work (note I
can still convert my software to different platforms) but my customers are
going to put yours (hopefully) out of business.

Hey. The day AutoCad is written in Java... Well people can be stupid...
But it would be a very sad day.

Pax,
Spiker
P.S. Granted there are some flaws in this argument as presented. Its hard
to be comprehensive and concise at the same time. So feel free to punch
holes but feel equally free to plug 'em right back up with your thought out
counterpoint.

[Klaus H. Probst]

> Let us assume you own a Wall Street firm and I own a Wall Street firm and
> ours is the business of buying and selling stock. We are of the same size
> in all aspects and capabilities (this is a Zedenkind Experiment - if my
spelling
> memory serves me right).

It's Gedankenexperiment. HTH!

____________
Klaus

[Nix mappin]

Weel I agree with you, but after all rarely the best technical solution that
wins. Otherwise 80% of the world would not be using window 9x...

Standard products come about because people like using them.
The technical argument is invariably a suffix.

Nobody (in their right mind) is developing Client side Java

But Java is the de facto server programming standard becuase developers like
using it it.

Lets put that into perspective in terms of a technical argument.
Java's one true 'winner takes all' concept/promise was/willbe cross platform
compatibility. Errr... Where is the most likely cross platform variance likely
to occur on the client (Personal Computers,Laptops, Consoles,PDA's,phones,Ebooks,cars,
fridges, sunglasses) or Servers (Computers... Um .. and bigger computers.)

So where is this cross platform Language king. Err.. Servers.
More specifically Unix servers.
Why?
Easy, Go and ask a friendly Unix programmer what his favourite OO RAD tool
is other than Java. There isnt one that immediatly springs to mind.

Thats why all the unix server developers love Java. Because its the first
RAD tool that they got their hands on.

Ever wondered why VB developers never got excited. Because they already have
a nice RAD tool thank you very much. OK so VB didnt have true OO , but who
cares, they evidently dont.

As for Delphi developers, they just keep laughing. Well, if you see a delphi
app created side by side with a Java app,Im sorry you just cant help yourself.
Shooting ducks in a barrel provides fairer sport than that.

I cant honestly blame the Unix developers for wanting to have an easier way
of making server Apps, just so long as I'm not forced to eat their dog food.

Regards.
Nix

Windows.Net = Java.NOT









"Spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote:
>
>Let us assume you own a Wall Street firm and I own a Wall Street firm and
>ours is the business of buying and selling stock. We are of the same size
>in all aspects and capabilities (this is a Zedenkind Experiment - if my
spelling
>memory serves me right). That is my analysts are as good as yours. They
>are identical in everyway. As a matter of fact they place buy and sell
orders
>for the exact same stock at the exact same time. ....Except my orders always
>get executed first and because of this I am a far better performing firm
>than yours.
>
>Why do you ask? Well I lied we are not exactly alike. You see you chose
>to develop to a Java platform both on the client and server sides both of
>which require a VM and because of this your component parts to your program
>run a quarter as fast as mine...alright...alright...half as fast as mine...alright...alright...three
>quarters as fast. Thats as generous as I'll get. The point is I still
beat
>you in placing an order.
>
>Next let us assume we are both manufacturers of some high precision, computer-aided,
>manufactured widget. And to make a long story short because your JAVA blah
>blah runs slower than my C++ blah blah(and dare I say VB? Nah) you have
to
>purchase more computers to do the work equivalent to a lesser number of
my
>computers. Thus my maintenance costs are lower, my network bandwidth requirment
>is lower. Yeah great you can have a Sparc Station and a win2k station and
>a Linux box and whatever. But where does that get you? Granted as a developer
>you can sell your products to more saps with less conversion work (note
I
>can still convert my software to different platforms) but my customers are
>going to put yours (hopefully) out of business.
>
>Hey. The day AutoCad is written in Java... Well people can be stupid...
>But it would be a very sad day.
>
>Pax,
>Spiker
>P.S. Granted there are some flaws in this argument as presented. Its hard
>to be comprehensive and concise at the same time. So feel free to punch
>holes but feel equally free to plug 'em right back up with your thought
out
>counterpoint.

[spiker]

Nix,
You hit the hammer right on the nail head. Thanks for the help.

Take care,
Spiker

P.S. Oh yeah! Thanks for the 'little help' on that 'lost basketball' shot/(sp?
error) - Klaus.

"Nix" mappin wrote:
>
>Weel I agree with you, but after all rarely the best technical solution
that
>wins. Otherwise 80% of the world would not be using window 9x...
>
>Standard products come about because people like using them.
>The technical argument is invariably a suffix.
>
>Nobody (in their right mind) is developing Client side Java
>
>But Java is the de facto server programming standard becuase developers
like
>using it it.
>
>Lets put that into perspective in terms of a technical argument.
>Java's one true 'winner takes all' concept/promise was/willbe cross platform
>compatibility. Errr... Where is the most likely cross platform variance
likely
>to occur on the client (Personal Computers,Laptops, Consoles,PDA's,phones,Ebooks,cars,
>fridges, sunglasses) or Servers (Computers... Um .. and bigger computers.)
>
>So where is this cross platform Language king. Err.. Servers.
>More specifically Unix servers.
>Why?
>Easy, Go and ask a friendly Unix programmer what his favourite OO RAD tool
>is other than Java. There isnt one that immediatly springs to mind.
>
>Thats why all the unix server developers love Java. Because its the first
>RAD tool that they got their hands on.
>
>Ever wondered why VB developers never got excited. Because they already
have
>a nice RAD tool thank you very much. OK so VB didnt have true OO , but who
>cares, they evidently dont.
>
>As for Delphi developers, they just keep laughing. Well, if you see a delphi
>app created side by side with a Java app,Im sorry you just cant help yourself.
>Shooting ducks in a barrel provides fairer sport than that.
>
>I cant honestly blame the Unix developers for wanting to have an easier
way
>of making server Apps, just so long as I'm not forced to eat their dog food.
>
>Regards.
>Nix
>
>Windows.Net = Java.NOT
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"Spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote:
>>
>>Let us assume you own a Wall Street firm and I own a Wall Street firm and
>>ours is the business of buying and selling stock. We are of the same size
>>in all aspects and capabilities (this is a Zedenkind Experiment - if my
>spelling
>>memory serves me right). That is my analysts are as good as yours. They
>>are identical in everyway. As a matter of fact they place buy and sell
>orders
>>for the exact same stock at the exact same time. ....Except my orders always
>>get executed first and because of this I am a far better performing firm
>>than yours.
>>
>>Why do you ask? Well I lied we are not exactly alike. You see you chose
>>to develop to a Java platform both on the client and server sides both
of
>>which require a VM and because of this your component parts to your program
>>run a quarter as fast as mine...alright...alright...half as fast as mine...alright...alright...three
>>quarters as fast. Thats as generous as I'll get. The point is I still
>beat
>>you in placing an order.
>>
>>Next let us assume we are both manufacturers of some high precision, computer-aided,
>>manufactured widget. And to make a long story short because your JAVA
blah
>>blah runs slower than my C++ blah blah(and dare I say VB? Nah) you have
>to
>>purchase more computers to do the work equivalent to a lesser number of
>my
>>computers. Thus my maintenance costs are lower, my network bandwidth requirment
>>is lower. Yeah great you can have a Sparc Station and a win2k station
and
>>a Linux box and whatever. But where does that get you? Granted as a developer
>>you can sell your products to more saps with less conversion work (note
>I
>>can still convert my software to different platforms) but my customers
are
>>going to put yours (hopefully) out of business.
>>
>>Hey. The day AutoCad is written in Java... Well people can be stupid...
>>But it would be a very sad day.
>>
>>Pax,
>>Spiker
>>P.S. Granted there are some flaws in this argument as presented. Its
hard
>>to be comprehensive and concise at the same time. So feel free to punch
>>holes but feel equally free to plug 'em right back up with your thought
>out
>>counterpoint.
>

[Cos]

With VB.NET VB programmers now have (or will have...) a true OO language.
In the .NET world that has been being preached about all week the client
side won't matter, it's just a browser. Development will be predominantly
server side. The only thing that will make a difference is the number of
round trips to the server for non-IE browsers that won't be able to handle
the client scripts generated by the server (programming will be done in TRUE
VB,C++, or C#) and the ASP+ page will send the neccessary content to the
browser. Broadband be damned...notscape will just have to make more round
trips (and thus be much slower)than IE...

To add to your original formula:
Windows.NET == Java.NOT == .NOTscape...

Regards from the PDC

Cos

"spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote:
>
>Nix,
> You hit the hammer right on the nail head. Thanks for the help.
>
>Take care,
>Spiker
>
>P.S. Oh yeah! Thanks for the 'little help' on that 'lost basketball' shot/(sp?
>error) - Klaus.
>
>"Nix" mappin wrote:
>>
>>Weel I agree with you, but after all rarely the best technical solution
>that
>>wins. Otherwise 80% of the world would not be using window 9x...
>>
>>Standard products come about because people like using them.
>>The technical argument is invariably a suffix.
>>
>>Nobody (in their right mind) is developing Client side Java
>>
>>But Java is the de facto server programming standard becuase developers
>like
>>using it it.
>>
>>Lets put that into perspective in terms of a technical argument.
>>Java's one true 'winner takes all' concept/promise was/willbe cross platform
>>compatibility. Errr... Where is the most likely cross platform variance
>likely
>>to occur on the client (Personal Computers,Laptops, Consoles,PDA's,phones,Ebooks,cars,
>>fridges, sunglasses) or Servers (Computers... Um .. and bigger computers.)
>>
>>So where is this cross platform Language king. Err.. Servers.
>>More specifically Unix servers.
>>Why?
>>Easy, Go and ask a friendly Unix programmer what his favourite OO RAD tool
>>is other than Java. There isnt one that immediatly springs to mind.
>>
>>Thats why all the unix server developers love Java. Because its the first
>>RAD tool that they got their hands on.
>>
>>Ever wondered why VB developers never got excited. Because they already
>have
>>a nice RAD tool thank you very much. OK so VB didnt have true OO , but
who
>>cares, they evidently dont.
>>
>>As for Delphi developers, they just keep laughing. Well, if you see a
delphi
>>app created side by side with a Java app,Im sorry you just cant help yourself.
>>Shooting ducks in a barrel provides fairer sport than that.
>>
>>I cant honestly blame the Unix developers for wanting to have an easier
>way
>>of making server Apps, just so long as I'm not forced to eat their dog
food.
>>
>>Regards.
>>Nix
>>
>>Windows.Net = Java.NOT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Let us assume you own a Wall Street firm and I own a Wall Street firm
and
>>>ours is the business of buying and selling stock. We are of the same
size
>>>in all aspects and capabilities (this is a Zedenkind Experiment - if my
>>spelling
>>>memory serves me right). That is my analysts are as good as yours. They
>>>are identical in everyway. As a matter of fact they place buy and sell
>>orders
>>>for the exact same stock at the exact same time. ....Except my orders
always
>>>get executed first and because of this I am a far better performing firm
>>>than yours.
>>>
>>>Why do you ask? Well I lied we are not exactly alike. You see you chose
>>>to develop to a Java platform both on the client and server sides both
>of
>>>which require a VM and because of this your component parts to your program
>>>run a quarter as fast as mine...alright...alright...half as fast as mine...alright...alright...three
>>>quarters as fast. Thats as generous as I'll get. The point is I still
>>beat
>>>you in placing an order.
>>>
>>>Next let us assume we are both manufacturers of some high precision, computer-aided,
>>>manufactured widget. And to make a long story short because your JAVA
>blah
>>>blah runs slower than my C++ blah blah(and dare I say VB? Nah) you have
>>to
>>>purchase more computers to do the work equivalent to a lesser number of
>>my
>>>computers. Thus my maintenance costs are lower, my network bandwidth
requirment
>>>is lower. Yeah great you can have a Sparc Station and a win2k station
>and
>>>a Linux box and whatever. But where does that get you? Granted as a
developer
>>>you can sell your products to more saps with less conversion work (note
>>I
>>>can still convert my software to different platforms) but my customers
>are
>>>going to put yours (hopefully) out of business.
>>>
>>>Hey. The day AutoCad is written in Java... Well people can be stupid...
>>>But it would be a very sad day.
>>>
>>>Pax,
>>>Spiker
>>>P.S. Granted there are some flaws in this argument as presented. Its
>hard
>>>to be comprehensive and concise at the same time. So feel free to punch
>>>holes but feel equally free to plug 'em right back up with your thought
>>out
>>>counterpoint.
>>
>

[James Curran]

<Nix mappin> wrote in message news:396c72f3$1@news.devx.com...
> But Java is the de facto server programming standard because developers
like
> using it it.

I have a lot of trouble believe Java is the "de facto server programming
standard". I'd say #1 is still perl, followed by CGI binaries in C (and
maybe now C++). And only then (maybe) Java, but ASP/VBS may even be ahead
of it.

--
Truth,
James Curran
http://www.NJTheater.com (Professional)
http://www.NovelTheory.com (Personal)
http://www.BrandsForLess.com (Day Job)