Enter the Java Deconstructionist Period


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Thread: Enter the Java Deconstructionist Period

  1. #1
    Spiker Guest

    Enter the Java Deconstructionist Period


    Let us assume you own a Wall Street firm and I own a Wall Street firm and
    ours is the business of buying and selling stock. We are of the same size
    in all aspects and capabilities (this is a Zedenkind Experiment - if my spelling
    memory serves me right). That is my analysts are as good as yours. They
    are identical in everyway. As a matter of fact they place buy and sell orders
    for the exact same stock at the exact same time. ....Except my orders always
    get executed first and because of this I am a far better performing firm
    than yours.

    Why do you ask? Well I lied we are not exactly alike. You see you chose
    to develop to a Java platform both on the client and server sides both of
    which require a VM and because of this your component parts to your program
    run a quarter as fast as mine...alright...alright...half as fast as mine...alright...alright...three
    quarters as fast. Thats as generous as I'll get. The point is I still beat
    you in placing an order.

    Next let us assume we are both manufacturers of some high precision, computer-aided,
    manufactured widget. And to make a long story short because your JAVA blah
    blah runs slower than my C++ blah blah(and dare I say VB? Nah) you have to
    purchase more computers to do the work equivalent to a lesser number of my
    computers. Thus my maintenance costs are lower, my network bandwidth requirment
    is lower. Yeah great you can have a Sparc Station and a win2k station and
    a Linux box and whatever. But where does that get you? Granted as a developer
    you can sell your products to more saps with less conversion work (note I
    can still convert my software to different platforms) but my customers are
    going to put yours (hopefully) out of business.

    Hey. The day AutoCad is written in Java... Well people can be stupid...
    But it would be a very sad day.

    Pax,
    Spiker
    P.S. Granted there are some flaws in this argument as presented. Its hard
    to be comprehensive and concise at the same time. So feel free to punch
    holes but feel equally free to plug 'em right back up with your thought out
    counterpoint.

  2. #2
    Klaus H. Probst Guest

    Re: Enter the Java Deconstructionist Period


    > Let us assume you own a Wall Street firm and I own a Wall Street firm and
    > ours is the business of buying and selling stock. We are of the same size
    > in all aspects and capabilities (this is a Zedenkind Experiment - if my

    spelling
    > memory serves me right).


    It's Gedankenexperiment. HTH!

    ____________
    Klaus





  3. #3
    Nix mappin Guest

    Re: Enter the Java Deconstructionist Period


    Weel I agree with you, but after all rarely the best technical solution that
    wins. Otherwise 80% of the world would not be using window 9x...

    Standard products come about because people like using them.
    The technical argument is invariably a suffix.

    Nobody (in their right mind) is developing Client side Java

    But Java is the de facto server programming standard becuase developers like
    using it it.

    Lets put that into perspective in terms of a technical argument.
    Java's one true 'winner takes all' concept/promise was/willbe cross platform
    compatibility. Errr... Where is the most likely cross platform variance likely
    to occur on the client (Personal Computers,Laptops, Consoles,PDA's,phones,Ebooks,cars,
    fridges, sunglasses) or Servers (Computers... Um .. and bigger computers.)

    So where is this cross platform Language king. Err.. Servers.
    More specifically Unix servers.
    Why?
    Easy, Go and ask a friendly Unix programmer what his favourite OO RAD tool
    is other than Java. There isnt one that immediatly springs to mind.

    Thats why all the unix server developers love Java. Because its the first
    RAD tool that they got their hands on.

    Ever wondered why VB developers never got excited. Because they already have
    a nice RAD tool thank you very much. OK so VB didnt have true OO , but who
    cares, they evidently dont.

    As for Delphi developers, they just keep laughing. Well, if you see a delphi
    app created side by side with a Java app,Im sorry you just cant help yourself.
    Shooting ducks in a barrel provides fairer sport than that.

    I cant honestly blame the Unix developers for wanting to have an easier way
    of making server Apps, just so long as I'm not forced to eat their dog food.

    Regards.
    Nix

    Windows.Net = Java.NOT









    "Spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote:
    >
    >Let us assume you own a Wall Street firm and I own a Wall Street firm and
    >ours is the business of buying and selling stock. We are of the same size
    >in all aspects and capabilities (this is a Zedenkind Experiment - if my

    spelling
    >memory serves me right). That is my analysts are as good as yours. They
    >are identical in everyway. As a matter of fact they place buy and sell

    orders
    >for the exact same stock at the exact same time. ....Except my orders always
    >get executed first and because of this I am a far better performing firm
    >than yours.
    >
    >Why do you ask? Well I lied we are not exactly alike. You see you chose
    >to develop to a Java platform both on the client and server sides both of
    >which require a VM and because of this your component parts to your program
    >run a quarter as fast as mine...alright...alright...half as fast as mine...alright...alright...three
    >quarters as fast. Thats as generous as I'll get. The point is I still

    beat
    >you in placing an order.
    >
    >Next let us assume we are both manufacturers of some high precision, computer-aided,
    >manufactured widget. And to make a long story short because your JAVA blah
    >blah runs slower than my C++ blah blah(and dare I say VB? Nah) you have

    to
    >purchase more computers to do the work equivalent to a lesser number of

    my
    >computers. Thus my maintenance costs are lower, my network bandwidth requirment
    >is lower. Yeah great you can have a Sparc Station and a win2k station and
    >a Linux box and whatever. But where does that get you? Granted as a developer
    >you can sell your products to more saps with less conversion work (note

    I
    >can still convert my software to different platforms) but my customers are
    >going to put yours (hopefully) out of business.
    >
    >Hey. The day AutoCad is written in Java... Well people can be stupid...
    >But it would be a very sad day.
    >
    >Pax,
    >Spiker
    >P.S. Granted there are some flaws in this argument as presented. Its hard
    >to be comprehensive and concise at the same time. So feel free to punch
    >holes but feel equally free to plug 'em right back up with your thought

    out
    >counterpoint.



  4. #4
    spiker Guest

    Re: Enter the Java Deconstructionist Period


    Nix,
    You hit the hammer right on the nail head. Thanks for the help.

    Take care,
    Spiker

    P.S. Oh yeah! Thanks for the 'little help' on that 'lost basketball' shot/(sp?
    error) - Klaus.

    "Nix" mappin wrote:
    >
    >Weel I agree with you, but after all rarely the best technical solution

    that
    >wins. Otherwise 80% of the world would not be using window 9x...
    >
    >Standard products come about because people like using them.
    >The technical argument is invariably a suffix.
    >
    >Nobody (in their right mind) is developing Client side Java
    >
    >But Java is the de facto server programming standard becuase developers

    like
    >using it it.
    >
    >Lets put that into perspective in terms of a technical argument.
    >Java's one true 'winner takes all' concept/promise was/willbe cross platform
    >compatibility. Errr... Where is the most likely cross platform variance

    likely
    >to occur on the client (Personal Computers,Laptops, Consoles,PDA's,phones,Ebooks,cars,
    >fridges, sunglasses) or Servers (Computers... Um .. and bigger computers.)
    >
    >So where is this cross platform Language king. Err.. Servers.
    >More specifically Unix servers.
    >Why?
    >Easy, Go and ask a friendly Unix programmer what his favourite OO RAD tool
    >is other than Java. There isnt one that immediatly springs to mind.
    >
    >Thats why all the unix server developers love Java. Because its the first
    >RAD tool that they got their hands on.
    >
    >Ever wondered why VB developers never got excited. Because they already

    have
    >a nice RAD tool thank you very much. OK so VB didnt have true OO , but who
    >cares, they evidently dont.
    >
    >As for Delphi developers, they just keep laughing. Well, if you see a delphi
    >app created side by side with a Java app,Im sorry you just cant help yourself.
    >Shooting ducks in a barrel provides fairer sport than that.
    >
    >I cant honestly blame the Unix developers for wanting to have an easier

    way
    >of making server Apps, just so long as I'm not forced to eat their dog food.
    >
    >Regards.
    >Nix
    >
    >Windows.Net = Java.NOT
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >"Spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>Let us assume you own a Wall Street firm and I own a Wall Street firm and
    >>ours is the business of buying and selling stock. We are of the same size
    >>in all aspects and capabilities (this is a Zedenkind Experiment - if my

    >spelling
    >>memory serves me right). That is my analysts are as good as yours. They
    >>are identical in everyway. As a matter of fact they place buy and sell

    >orders
    >>for the exact same stock at the exact same time. ....Except my orders always
    >>get executed first and because of this I am a far better performing firm
    >>than yours.
    >>
    >>Why do you ask? Well I lied we are not exactly alike. You see you chose
    >>to develop to a Java platform both on the client and server sides both

    of
    >>which require a VM and because of this your component parts to your program
    >>run a quarter as fast as mine...alright...alright...half as fast as mine...alright...alright...three
    >>quarters as fast. Thats as generous as I'll get. The point is I still

    >beat
    >>you in placing an order.
    >>
    >>Next let us assume we are both manufacturers of some high precision, computer-aided,
    >>manufactured widget. And to make a long story short because your JAVA

    blah
    >>blah runs slower than my C++ blah blah(and dare I say VB? Nah) you have

    >to
    >>purchase more computers to do the work equivalent to a lesser number of

    >my
    >>computers. Thus my maintenance costs are lower, my network bandwidth requirment
    >>is lower. Yeah great you can have a Sparc Station and a win2k station

    and
    >>a Linux box and whatever. But where does that get you? Granted as a developer
    >>you can sell your products to more saps with less conversion work (note

    >I
    >>can still convert my software to different platforms) but my customers

    are
    >>going to put yours (hopefully) out of business.
    >>
    >>Hey. The day AutoCad is written in Java... Well people can be stupid...
    >>But it would be a very sad day.
    >>
    >>Pax,
    >>Spiker
    >>P.S. Granted there are some flaws in this argument as presented. Its

    hard
    >>to be comprehensive and concise at the same time. So feel free to punch
    >>holes but feel equally free to plug 'em right back up with your thought

    >out
    >>counterpoint.

    >



  5. #5
    Cos Guest

    Re: Enter the Java Deconstructionist Period


    With VB.NET VB programmers now have (or will have...) a true OO language.
    In the .NET world that has been being preached about all week the client
    side won't matter, it's just a browser. Development will be predominantly
    server side. The only thing that will make a difference is the number of
    round trips to the server for non-IE browsers that won't be able to handle
    the client scripts generated by the server (programming will be done in TRUE
    VB,C++, or C#) and the ASP+ page will send the neccessary content to the
    browser. Broadband be damned...notscape will just have to make more round
    trips (and thus be much slower)than IE...

    To add to your original formula:
    Windows.NET == Java.NOT == .NOTscape...

    Regards from the PDC

    Cos

    "spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote:
    >
    >Nix,
    > You hit the hammer right on the nail head. Thanks for the help.
    >
    >Take care,
    >Spiker
    >
    >P.S. Oh yeah! Thanks for the 'little help' on that 'lost basketball' shot/(sp?
    >error) - Klaus.
    >
    >"Nix" mappin wrote:
    >>
    >>Weel I agree with you, but after all rarely the best technical solution

    >that
    >>wins. Otherwise 80% of the world would not be using window 9x...
    >>
    >>Standard products come about because people like using them.
    >>The technical argument is invariably a suffix.
    >>
    >>Nobody (in their right mind) is developing Client side Java
    >>
    >>But Java is the de facto server programming standard becuase developers

    >like
    >>using it it.
    >>
    >>Lets put that into perspective in terms of a technical argument.
    >>Java's one true 'winner takes all' concept/promise was/willbe cross platform
    >>compatibility. Errr... Where is the most likely cross platform variance

    >likely
    >>to occur on the client (Personal Computers,Laptops, Consoles,PDA's,phones,Ebooks,cars,
    >>fridges, sunglasses) or Servers (Computers... Um .. and bigger computers.)
    >>
    >>So where is this cross platform Language king. Err.. Servers.
    >>More specifically Unix servers.
    >>Why?
    >>Easy, Go and ask a friendly Unix programmer what his favourite OO RAD tool
    >>is other than Java. There isnt one that immediatly springs to mind.
    >>
    >>Thats why all the unix server developers love Java. Because its the first
    >>RAD tool that they got their hands on.
    >>
    >>Ever wondered why VB developers never got excited. Because they already

    >have
    >>a nice RAD tool thank you very much. OK so VB didnt have true OO , but

    who
    >>cares, they evidently dont.
    >>
    >>As for Delphi developers, they just keep laughing. Well, if you see a

    delphi
    >>app created side by side with a Java app,Im sorry you just cant help yourself.
    >>Shooting ducks in a barrel provides fairer sport than that.
    >>
    >>I cant honestly blame the Unix developers for wanting to have an easier

    >way
    >>of making server Apps, just so long as I'm not forced to eat their dog

    food.
    >>
    >>Regards.
    >>Nix
    >>
    >>Windows.Net = Java.NOT
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>"Spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>Let us assume you own a Wall Street firm and I own a Wall Street firm

    and
    >>>ours is the business of buying and selling stock. We are of the same

    size
    >>>in all aspects and capabilities (this is a Zedenkind Experiment - if my

    >>spelling
    >>>memory serves me right). That is my analysts are as good as yours. They
    >>>are identical in everyway. As a matter of fact they place buy and sell

    >>orders
    >>>for the exact same stock at the exact same time. ....Except my orders

    always
    >>>get executed first and because of this I am a far better performing firm
    >>>than yours.
    >>>
    >>>Why do you ask? Well I lied we are not exactly alike. You see you chose
    >>>to develop to a Java platform both on the client and server sides both

    >of
    >>>which require a VM and because of this your component parts to your program
    >>>run a quarter as fast as mine...alright...alright...half as fast as mine...alright...alright...three
    >>>quarters as fast. Thats as generous as I'll get. The point is I still

    >>beat
    >>>you in placing an order.
    >>>
    >>>Next let us assume we are both manufacturers of some high precision, computer-aided,
    >>>manufactured widget. And to make a long story short because your JAVA

    >blah
    >>>blah runs slower than my C++ blah blah(and dare I say VB? Nah) you have

    >>to
    >>>purchase more computers to do the work equivalent to a lesser number of

    >>my
    >>>computers. Thus my maintenance costs are lower, my network bandwidth

    requirment
    >>>is lower. Yeah great you can have a Sparc Station and a win2k station

    >and
    >>>a Linux box and whatever. But where does that get you? Granted as a

    developer
    >>>you can sell your products to more saps with less conversion work (note

    >>I
    >>>can still convert my software to different platforms) but my customers

    >are
    >>>going to put yours (hopefully) out of business.
    >>>
    >>>Hey. The day AutoCad is written in Java... Well people can be stupid...
    >>>But it would be a very sad day.
    >>>
    >>>Pax,
    >>>Spiker
    >>>P.S. Granted there are some flaws in this argument as presented. Its

    >hard
    >>>to be comprehensive and concise at the same time. So feel free to punch
    >>>holes but feel equally free to plug 'em right back up with your thought

    >>out
    >>>counterpoint.

    >>

    >



  6. #6
    James Curran Guest

    Re: Enter the Java Deconstructionist Period

    <Nix mappin> wrote in message news:396c72f3$1@news.devx.com...
    > But Java is the de facto server programming standard because developers

    like
    > using it it.


    I have a lot of trouble believe Java is the "de facto server programming
    standard". I'd say #1 is still perl, followed by CGI binaries in C (and
    maybe now C++). And only then (maybe) Java, but ASP/VBS may even be ahead
    of it.

    --
    Truth,
    James Curran
    http://www.NJTheater.com (Professional)
    http://www.NovelTheory.com (Personal)
    http://www.BrandsForLess.com (Day Job)





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