An Open Source VB?


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Thread: An Open Source VB?

  1. #1
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw Guest

    An Open Source VB?


    G'day -

    I have a background in VB, but have recently been looking at Java. This has
    led me to read about the concept of Open Source, copyleft et al. I hadn't
    realised how much work had been done by some of these guys - it's quite incredible.
    Unfortunately, it is being done by such a minority group. And a lot of these
    people seem to have an unfortunate tendency to look down on certain groups.
    For instance, in the otherwise enlightening "How To Become A Hacker" (http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html),
    Eric S. Raymond has this to say:

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Are Visual Basic or Delphi good languages to start with?

    No, because they're not portable. There are no open-source implementations
    of these languages, so you'd be locked into only those platforms the vendor
    chooses to support. Accepting that kind of monopoly situation is not the
    hacker way.
    Visual Basic is especially awful. The fact that it's a proprietary Microsoft
    language is enough to disqualify it, and like other Basics it's a poorly-designed
    language that will teach you bad programming habits.

    One of those bad habits is becoming dependent on a single vendor's libraries,
    widgets, and development tools. In general, any language that isn't supported
    under at least three different vendors' operating systems is a poor one to
    learn to hack in.
    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Well, when I first read this, I thought "typical C headed bigot". I must
    assume that as Mr. Raymond is some sort of leader in the "Open Source community"
    that this must be a generally held view. A lot of the other in the document
    made a lot of sense to me and I can see a lot of what Mr. Raymond describes,
    such as freedom of ideas and helping your fellow hacker in what must be a
    terrible place, the devx.vb hierarchy of newsgroups. It also occurs to me
    that these people are never going to "win" unless they get the hearts and
    minds of us who work with these "evil" languages. Think about the number
    of VB programmers there must be! And then I got thinking about his statement:

    "There are no open-source implementations of these languages, so you'd be
    locked into only those platforms the vendor chooses to support."

    And I thought, wouldn't it be cool if there <was> a kind of open source implementation
    of VB - call it VeeBee Basic or something. That way, I and 000's of other
    developers could write code that worked on any platform. It would also make
    the moaning about the next version of VB redundant - we could add the new
    features ourselves! It would be hard (you would have to write implementations
    of Win32 and COM to be complete), but this undertaking IMHO would be far
    more important than any other Open Source project. But I suspect the tragedy
    would be that the thought of touching a "Microsoft Language" would be anathema
    to too many "real" programmers.

    -------------------------
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    Programmer/Analyst
    Prime Response
    Brentford
    UK


  2. #2
    Bill Davis Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?

    mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net (Mark Alexander Bertenshaw) wrote in
    <394e1c2b$1@news.devx.com>:
    ..
    ..
    ..
    >And I thought, wouldn't it be cool if there <was> a kind of open source
    >implementation of VB - call it VeeBee Basic or something. That way, I
    >and 000's of other developers could write code that worked on any
    >platform. It would also make the moaning about the next version of VB
    >redundant - we could add the new features ourselves! It would be hard
    >(you would have to write implementations of Win32 and COM to be
    >complete), but this undertaking IMHO would be far more important than
    >any other Open Source project. But I suspect the tragedy would be that
    >the thought of touching a "Microsoft Language" would be anathema to too
    >many "real" programmers.
    >
    >-------------------------
    >Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    >Programmer/Analyst
    >Prime Response
    >Brentford
    >UK
    >
    >


    Mark,

    Check out www.python.org and www.oreilly.com's Python information.

    Not quite VB (yet), but getting there... Open source, portable. There is a
    version of Python based on the Java Virtual Machine, which means it can run
    just about anywhere Java does. At least one of the Windows versions can do
    COM (which makes it unportable, but allows it to work with MTS, MSMQ,
    etc...). It also has more object oriented features than VB.

    --
    Bill Davis, MCSD, Sun Certified Programmer

  3. #3
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?


    Bill -

    Sounds interesting (and I think that this is the language that Raymond was
    favouring), but unfortunately this is not very like VB. The Open Source guys
    ought to be working on getting people like me involved in their work, regardless
    of whether the actual language I work with meets their concept of a "real
    language".

    >Check out www.python.org and www.oreilly.com's Python
    >information.
    >
    >Not quite VB (yet), but getting there... Open source, portable. There is

    a
    >version of Python based on the Java Virtual Machine, which means it can

    run
    >just about anywhere Java does. At least one of the Windows versions can

    do
    >COM (which makes it unportable, but allows it to work with MTS, MSMQ,
    >etc...). It also has more object oriented features than VB.
    >
    >--
    >Bill Davis, MCSD, Sun Certified Programmer


    -------------------------
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    Programmer/Analyst
    Prime Response
    Brentford
    UK


  4. #4
    Chris Sibert Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?


    I'm in agreement. I would like to see a language that has the syntactical
    practicality of VB, with the universality of a language like Java. Coding
    in the 40 year old arcane syntax of C-like languages is too difficult for
    most VB programmers to consider.
    I would like to see a Basic++ with full object orientation, and open source,
    cross platform capability. It doesn't seem that the language designers can
    figure out that confusing syntax is not good. Basic is far superior in this
    regard.


    "Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote:
    >
    >Bill -
    >
    >Sounds interesting (and I think that this is the language that Raymond was
    >favouring), but unfortunately this is not very like VB. The Open Source

    guys
    >ought to be working on getting people like me involved in their work, regardless
    >of whether the actual language I work with meets their concept of a "real
    >language".
    >
    >>Check out www.python.org and www.oreilly.com's Python
    >>information.
    >>
    >>Not quite VB (yet), but getting there... Open source, portable. There is

    >a
    >>version of Python based on the Java Virtual Machine, which means it can

    >run
    >>just about anywhere Java does. At least one of the Windows versions can

    >do
    >>COM (which makes it unportable, but allows it to work with MTS, MSMQ,
    >>etc...). It also has more object oriented features than VB.
    >>
    >>--
    >>Bill Davis, MCSD, Sun Certified Programmer

    >
    >-------------------------
    >Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    >Programmer/Analyst
    >Prime Response
    >Brentford
    >UK
    >



  5. #5
    MK Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?


    I'm sorry, guys, but I'm tired to hear again and again that C++ is difficult.
    Nave you tried? Spend a weekend, read "Annotated Reference Manual" by Stroustrup
    and Ellis just once - you'll see that VB is not *that* different and C++
    is not that *difficult*. May be you'll switch to C++ then.

    "Chris Sibert" <sibertc@nationwidemoney.com> wrote:
    >
    >I'm in agreement. I would like to see a language that has the syntactical
    >practicality of VB, with the universality of a language like Java. Coding
    >in the 40 year old arcane syntax of C-like languages is too difficult for
    >most VB programmers to consider.
    >I would like to see a Basic++ with full object orientation, and open source,
    >cross platform capability. It doesn't seem that the language designers can
    >figure out that confusing syntax is not good. Basic is far superior in this
    >regard.
    >
    >
    >"Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote:
    >>
    >>Bill -
    >>
    >>Sounds interesting (and I think that this is the language that Raymond

    was
    >>favouring), but unfortunately this is not very like VB. The Open Source

    >guys
    >>ought to be working on getting people like me involved in their work, regardless
    >>of whether the actual language I work with meets their concept of a "real
    >>language".
    >>
    >>>Check out www.python.org and www.oreilly.com's Python
    >>>information.
    >>>
    >>>Not quite VB (yet), but getting there... Open source, portable. There

    is
    >>a
    >>>version of Python based on the Java Virtual Machine, which means it can

    >>run
    >>>just about anywhere Java does. At least one of the Windows versions can

    >>do
    >>>COM (which makes it unportable, but allows it to work with MTS, MSMQ,


    >>>etc...). It also has more object oriented features than VB.
    >>>
    >>>--
    >>>Bill Davis, MCSD, Sun Certified Programmer

    >>
    >>-------------------------
    >>Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    >>Programmer/Analyst
    >>Prime Response
    >>Brentford
    >>UK
    >>

    >



  6. #6
    DevTeam Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?

    I agree, I purchased "C++ Programming Language 3rd ed." from BJarne
    Stroustrup and conclude that C++ don't differ so much from Vb, or in the way
    that I program and design. The biggest trouble is the inavailability of a
    good framwork, C++ is portable, creating a good framework for each OS that
    you want. We are currently porting applications from Win32 to BeOS, thanks
    that we choose to design a proprietary framework, for me, better and more
    faster and clean than MFC, mimmick in part of the APi of BeOS.

    Just my 2 cents.

    DevTeam
    MMedia Systems

    Download BeOS free!!!
    http://free.be.com

    "MK" <mikeklim@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:39517f46$1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > I'm sorry, guys, but I'm tired to hear again and again that C++ is

    difficult.
    > Nave you tried? Spend a weekend, read "Annotated Reference Manual" by

    Stroustrup
    > and Ellis just once - you'll see that VB is not *that* different and C++
    > is not that *difficult*. May be you'll switch to C++ then.
    >
    > "Chris Sibert" <sibertc@nationwidemoney.com> wrote:
    > >
    > >I'm in agreement. I would like to see a language that has the syntactical
    > >practicality of VB, with the universality of a language like Java. Coding
    > >in the 40 year old arcane syntax of C-like languages is too difficult for
    > >most VB programmers to consider.
    > >I would like to see a Basic++ with full object orientation, and open

    source,
    > >cross platform capability. It doesn't seem that the language designers

    can
    > >figure out that confusing syntax is not good. Basic is far superior in

    this
    > >regard.
    > >
    > >
    > >"Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>Bill -
    > >>
    > >>Sounds interesting (and I think that this is the language that Raymond

    > was
    > >>favouring), but unfortunately this is not very like VB. The Open Source

    > >guys
    > >>ought to be working on getting people like me involved in their work,

    regardless
    > >>of whether the actual language I work with meets their concept of a

    "real
    > >>language".
    > >>
    > >>>Check out www.python.org and www.oreilly.com's Python
    > >>>information.
    > >>>
    > >>>Not quite VB (yet), but getting there... Open source, portable. There

    > is
    > >>a
    > >>>version of Python based on the Java Virtual Machine, which means it can
    > >>run
    > >>>just about anywhere Java does. At least one of the Windows versions can
    > >>do
    > >>>COM (which makes it unportable, but allows it to work with MTS, MSMQ,

    >
    > >>>etc...). It also has more object oriented features than VB.
    > >>>
    > >>>--
    > >>>Bill Davis, MCSD, Sun Certified Programmer
    > >>
    > >>-------------------------
    > >>Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    > >>Programmer/Analyst
    > >>Prime Response
    > >>Brentford
    > >>UK
    > >>

    > >

    >




  7. #7
    Mark Geisler Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?


    Some VB programmers, like me (I actually develop in Java as well), see no
    real value in open-source development communities. Microsoft gives us the
    plumbing, and all we have to do is concentrate on writing the business logic.
    Low-level languages and open source languages do not address this need.
    In fact, most of the open-source zealots (snobs) don't even have a concept
    of bringing a product to market or RAD. Even though I could squeeze a few
    ounces of performance and scalability out of C++ server-components, it still
    wouldn't be worth it to me. With VB I can write a web app that performs
    well, and do it very quickly. If I design it right, I then can reuse the
    VB server components in any other COM application. Dealing with Java's evolution
    will expotentially increases our project development cycle. With VB, ASP,
    Windows NT, Windows 2000 and SQL Server 7 I can build very sophisticated
    and powerful web-apps that will work on any platform that supports HTTP,
    HTML, and Javascript. With this capability, the value of open-source and
    other socialist progamming communities is reduced to zero. I look at it
    this way, do whatever you want to do on your Linux server and I will do what
    I want on my NT server. Just keep your opinions about server to yourself,
    because I don't want to languish in open-source, low-level ****. What I
    do in 40 hours a week in VB is equivalent to what Java programmers do in
    two weeks as far as production is concerned. That it just my biased, pointed,
    and experienced opinion though. If a person has no experience with COM and
    VB their opinion about them is worthless, period.

    Mark G.
    Web Application Developer

  8. #8
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?


    MK -

    If C++ is so easy, why are they bringing out "C#" ? <g>
    If you have spent time programming VB, C++ is not a language you would want
    to spend too much time with. I personally would like to learn C++, but I
    keep on finding it heavy going. Now Java - that <is> a nice language.

    -------------------------
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    Programmer/Analyst
    Prime Response
    Brentford
    UK


    "MK" <mikeklim@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >I'm sorry, guys, but I'm tired to hear again and again that C++ is difficult.
    >Nave you tried? Spend a weekend, read "Annotated Reference Manual" by Stroustrup
    >and Ellis just once - you'll see that VB is not *that* different and C++
    >is not that *difficult*. May be you'll switch to C++ then.
    >
    >"Chris Sibert" <sibertc@nationwidemoney.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>I'm in agreement. I would like to see a language that has the syntactical
    >>practicality of VB, with the universality of a language like Java. Coding
    >>in the 40 year old arcane syntax of C-like languages is too difficult for
    >>most VB programmers to consider.
    >>I would like to see a Basic++ with full object orientation, and open source,
    >>cross platform capability. It doesn't seem that the language designers

    can
    >>figure out that confusing syntax is not good. Basic is far superior in

    this
    >>regard.
    >>
    >>
    >>"Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>Bill -
    >>>
    >>>Sounds interesting (and I think that this is the language that Raymond

    >was
    >>>favouring), but unfortunately this is not very like VB. The Open Source

    >>guys
    >>>ought to be working on getting people like me involved in their work,

    regardless
    >>>of whether the actual language I work with meets their concept of a "real
    >>>language".
    >>>
    >>>>Check out www.python.org and www.oreilly.com's Python
    >>>>information.
    >>>>
    >>>>Not quite VB (yet), but getting there... Open source, portable. There

    >is
    >>>a
    >>>>version of Python based on the Java Virtual Machine, which means it can
    >>>run
    >>>>just about anywhere Java does. At least one of the Windows versions can
    >>>do
    >>>>COM (which makes it unportable, but allows it to work with MTS, MSMQ,

    >
    >>>>etc...). It also has more object oriented features than VB.
    >>>>
    >>>>--
    >>>>Bill Davis, MCSD, Sun Certified Programmer
    >>>
    >>>-------------------------
    >>>Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    >>>Programmer/Analyst
    >>>Prime Response
    >>>Brentford
    >>>UK
    >>>

    >>

    >



  9. #9
    JasonL Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?

    Mark,

    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote
    >I personally would like to learn C++, but I
    > keep on finding it heavy going. Now Java - that <is> a nice language.

    So far it looks that way. I've been playing with Java, and am considering
    going heavy duty into it's use. It looks great.
    Then ... I hear about this C# thing. Hmmm.... looks like Java, smells like
    VB, sounds like C++... what is this thing?! If it is intended to keep VB/C++
    guys from looking for greener Java pastures, it almost got my attention.
    Any thoughts?
    -JasonL




  10. #10
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?

    > Then I hear about this C# thing...what is this thing?!

    Jason: Sounds like the next version of Visual J++ to me.
    ---
    Phil Weber



  11. #11
    DevTeam Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?

    Mark, I'm not a "open-source" freak, I develop commercial Apps in the
    multimedia field, don't like Linux, because it don't provide the functions
    and hardware support that we need, period. I said that C++ don't differ from
    VB too much, and C++ allow you make things portable, like develop
    cross-plataform solutions, will not be excelent see your App running
    everywhere? Mac, BeOS, NT, 95/98, etc.??? I do, with a good framework and a
    little bit of effort to create the compilated version of that framework. I
    use VB6 to design and create small things, fast and easy, but in the
    multimedia field, we need more accurate tools, we will love Microsoft if
    they provide a RTNT (RealTime NT) but they will not do. The market have
    choosed Microsoft because it provide a wide range of tools, easiest ways to
    program, etc., For that I love microsoft, but just for that, hate when found
    a bug in version of VB and the cold ms only sent to me a "we have received
    your post"... just that? so cold, to a user who purchase Universal MSDN? all
    the VS enterprise editions, and active promote their products (developing
    using Windows implies promoting them, or not?)

    Just my two cents. any comments, just e.mail me, remove the .nospam from the
    e.mail

    DevTeam
    MMedia Systems

    "Mark Geisler" <mgeisler@teach.com> wrote in message
    news:395527a6$1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > Some VB programmers, like me (I actually develop in Java as well), see no
    > real value in open-source development communities. Microsoft gives us the
    > plumbing, and all we have to do is concentrate on writing the business

    logic.
    > Low-level languages and open source languages do not address this need.
    > In fact, most of the open-source zealots (snobs) don't even have a

    concept
    > of bringing a product to market or RAD. Even though I could squeeze a few
    > ounces of performance and scalability out of C++ server-components, it

    still
    > wouldn't be worth it to me. With VB I can write a web app that performs
    > well, and do it very quickly. If I design it right, I then can reuse the
    > VB server components in any other COM application. Dealing with Java's

    evolution
    > will expotentially increases our project development cycle. With VB, ASP,
    > Windows NT, Windows 2000 and SQL Server 7 I can build very sophisticated
    > and powerful web-apps that will work on any platform that supports HTTP,
    > HTML, and Javascript. With this capability, the value of open-source and
    > other socialist progamming communities is reduced to zero. I look at it
    > this way, do whatever you want to do on your Linux server and I will do

    what
    > I want on my NT server. Just keep your opinions about server to yourself,
    > because I don't want to languish in open-source, low-level ****. What I
    > do in 40 hours a week in VB is equivalent to what Java programmers do in
    > two weeks as far as production is concerned. That it just my biased,

    pointed,
    > and experienced opinion though. If a person has no experience with COM

    and
    > VB their opinion about them is worthless, period.
    >
    > Mark G.
    > Web Application Developer




  12. #12
    Tomas Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?


    >>C++ allow you make things portable, like develop

    cross-platform solutions, will not be excellent see your App running everywhere?
    Mac, BeOS, NT, 95/98, etc.???

    Remember C++, for the most part, is "cross platform" if it is a console app
    using carefully selected C++ library functions.
    At this point, many of the popular frameworks, like MFC, lock you totally
    into Windows.

    There are other C++ compiler vendors that have their own GUI building tools
    that are cross platform capable. However, these do not seem to widely used.

    When building a cross platform app, one must be very careful in how it is
    implemented. Just because it is built in C++ does not mean it can run anywhere.


    There are other tools, such as the soon to be released Delphi & C++ Builder
    (Borland's Kylix). They will allow you to build Windows and Linux apps. However,
    Borland must port the libraries to other operating systems.

    My two cents...

    Kylix Info:

    http://www.gartner.com/webletter/inprise/index1.html


  13. #13
    Todd B Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?

    Mark, Like you I have been reading quite a bit about open source but to
    this day one question still nags at me. How the heck does anyone make
    money so they can pay the bills and buy food?

    Take Linux. There are a number of companies that now 'sell' it or at least
    they package it and sell the box which happens to include Linux. They seem
    to also have some type of support contract they offer to companies and
    people that want to use Linux. Ok that is fine.. but you can only have so
    many of those type companies.

    Thus, what happens to every other programmer? Let's say every programmer
    moves to Linux development whether it be C, C++ or whatever. Everything is
    open source. Company A create programming tools, company B creates
    programming tools and so on in every category. Obviously since it is open
    source, they release it free and open to the world. What I want to know
    is who pays for the time and other expenses for the 2 or 3 years of
    development? After releasing the 'product' for free, where do they garner
    revenue to stay in business?

    There can only be so many 'companies' that offer 'support' for open source
    and that make enough money from that to survive.

    Your thread just made me think of this issue again so I figured I would put
    the question out there. Can anyone reasonably explain how open source can
    be beneficial in the type of economic world we have today? If we lived in
    a world where money did not exist and everyone had what they needed without
    the need for income, then sure. But for the life of me, I cannot see at all
    why there is such a big push to go open source.

    --

    Sincerely,

    Todd B

    Confusion say * What goes around, Keeps going!*


    "Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote in message
    news:394e1c2b$1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > G'day -
    >
    > I have a background in VB, but have recently been looking at Java. This

    has
    > led me to read about the concept of Open Source, copyleft et al. I hadn't
    > realised how much work had been done by some of these guys - it's quite

    incredible.
    > Unfortunately, it is being done by such a minority group. And a lot of

    these
    > people seem to have an unfortunate tendency to look down on certain

    groups.
    > For instance, in the otherwise enlightening "How To Become A Hacker"

    (http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html),
    > Eric S. Raymond has this to say:
    >
    > ----------------------------------------------------------





  14. #14
    spiker Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?


    Todd,

    Mark's idea is bad only in one respect.....VB.... the language is proprietary
    to *Microsoft*....duh! He seemed to imply he was going to duplicate the
    language and not pay for it or get MS to agree. Try that with JAVA and see
    what McNeally does to your sorry *ss when you change a spec. I can't believe
    Mark got quoted by DEVX. The truth is I wrote to the GNU site's FAQs guy
    many moons ago and asked if you could have an 'open source community' around
    VB and from a licensing point of view he saw no problem. That is if I posted
    a fully developed app's source code (including activex controls etc...) on
    a website and defined it on the GNU License that would be okay given MS'
    license agreement with VB developers. Imagine tying in XML. Now thats a
    powerful thought. Imagine open source code for law enforcement officers
    laptops, vacations booking,...... The list goes on. Just again in order
    to keep your bill down to 5 bucks I'll quit now.

    Almost forgot whats important to you. How do you get paid? Developing features
    and support and trainning and scaling the program and updating to VB7 and
    rewritting to accomodate new/specific business practices and .... As your
    own man. Based on a powerful paradigm <-there goes that ugly word again>
    the 'open source' pppp...never mind. Get it?

    Just Kiddin'
    Spiker ;- )>
    -Lets burn the DEVX Java editor in effigy for not responding powerfully to
    valid Java criticism.- Hey eddy-tor whose your boss man? Your letting
    us down here. We may need to ask for a replacement player.

    "Todd B" <ToddB@NoSpam.AgendumSoftware.com> wrote:
    >Mark, Like you I have been reading quite a bit about open source but to
    >this day one question still nags at me. How the heck does anyone make
    >money so they can pay the bills and buy food?
    >
    >Take Linux. There are a number of companies that now 'sell' it or at least
    >they package it and sell the box which happens to include Linux. They

    seem
    >to also have some type of support contract they offer to companies and
    >people that want to use Linux. Ok that is fine.. but you can only have

    so
    >many of those type companies.
    >
    >Thus, what happens to every other programmer? Let's say every programmer
    >moves to Linux development whether it be C, C++ or whatever. Everything

    is
    >open source. Company A create programming tools, company B creates
    >programming tools and so on in every category. Obviously since it is open
    >source, they release it free and open to the world. What I want to know
    >is who pays for the time and other expenses for the 2 or 3 years of
    >development? After releasing the 'product' for free, where do they garner
    >revenue to stay in business?
    >
    >There can only be so many 'companies' that offer 'support' for open source
    >and that make enough money from that to survive.
    >
    >Your thread just made me think of this issue again so I figured I would

    put
    >the question out there. Can anyone reasonably explain how open source can
    >be beneficial in the type of economic world we have today? If we lived

    in
    >a world where money did not exist and everyone had what they needed without
    >the need for income, then sure. But for the life of me, I cannot see at

    all
    >why there is such a big push to go open source.
    >
    >--
    >
    >Sincerely,
    >
    >Todd B
    >
    >Confusion say * What goes around, Keeps going!*
    >
    >
    >"Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote in message
    >news:394e1c2b$1@news.devx.com...
    >>
    >> G'day -
    >>
    >> I have a background in VB, but have recently been looking at Java. This

    >has
    >> led me to read about the concept of Open Source, copyleft et al. I hadn't
    >> realised how much work had been done by some of these guys - it's quite

    >incredible.
    >> Unfortunately, it is being done by such a minority group. And a lot of

    >these
    >> people seem to have an unfortunate tendency to look down on certain

    >groups.
    >> For instance, in the otherwise enlightening "How To Become A Hacker"

    >(http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html),
    >> Eric S. Raymond has this to say:
    >>
    >> ----------------------------------------------------------

    >
    >
    >



  15. #15
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?


    Spiker -

    >Mark's idea is bad only in one respect.....VB.... the language is proprietary
    >to *Microsoft*....duh! He seemed to imply he was going to duplicate the
    >language and not pay for it or get MS to agree.


    Yeah, I know, I know. This was a "wouldn't it be nice if" type notion. Having
    said that - at what point would a RAD Basic-type language with virtually
    identical syntax become VB? What is the dividing line - the "uniqueness"?
    I seem to remember that someone did a version of VB which ran on OS/2 about
    5 years ago (whatever happened to that?).

    >Try that with JAVA and see
    >what McNeally does to your sorry *ss when you change a spec. I can't believe
    >Mark got quoted by DEVX.


    I did? My agent will be in contact with them ... <g>

    >The truth is I wrote to the GNU site's FAQs guy
    >many moons ago and asked if you could have an 'open source community' around
    >VB and from a licensing point of view he saw no problem. That is if I posted
    >a fully developed app's source code (including activex controls etc...)

    on
    >a website and defined it on the GNU License that would be okay given MS'
    >license agreement with VB developers. Imagine tying in XML. Now thats

    a
    >powerful thought. Imagine open source code for law enforcement officers
    >laptops, vacations booking,...... The list goes on. Just again in order
    >to keep your bill down to 5 bucks I'll quit now.


    I always have wondered who would enforce the GNU license. Has anyone ever
    been prosecuted, or is it because programmers who would be motivated to do
    Open Source wouldn't break the license on principle (there was something
    about this in "Homesteading the Noosphere", I think).

    >Almost forgot whats important to you. How do you get paid? Developing

    features
    >and support and trainning and scaling the program and updating to VB7 and
    >rewritting to accomodate new/specific business practices and ....


    With VStudio 7, it looks as if Microsoft wants to control the whole programming
    operation from start to finish. However, hackers are notoriously anti-big,
    and I can imagine that there would be principle who might not use VStudio7
    on principle. And maybe they might want to use an independent VB clone <g>.

    > As your
    >own man. Based on a powerful paradigm <-there goes that ugly word again>
    >the 'open source' pppp...never mind. Get it?
    >
    >Just Kiddin'
    >Spiker ;- )>
    >


    >"Todd B" <ToddB@NoSpam.AgendumSoftware.com> wrote:
    >>Mark, Like you I have been reading quite a bit about open source but

    to
    >>this day one question still nags at me. How the heck does anyone make
    >>money so they can pay the bills and buy food?


    Todd -

    I always got the impression that this was meant to be a part-time thing -
    a project for "fun" and personal fulfillment, rather than for immediate gain.
    Also, remember that most of the people who work on the software will actually
    be using it, thus making them more productive. I can see that this is a <big>
    incentive. Imagine that instead of cursing Microsoft and wishing their firstborn
    drowned when VB6.exe crashes for the nth time, you could actually go into
    the source code and fix the **** bug yourself. This seems to be a brilliant
    incentive. If I could do this, I would go out and learn C++ !!
    The few people who actually make money out of Open Source are usually those
    in distribution (such as RedHat and Caldera), people who write books, and
    those who set themselves up as consultants. These are in the minority, and
    would have to be people "recognised" as being one of the OS "Godz".

    -------------------------
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    Programmer/Analyst
    Prime Response
    Brentford
    UK


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