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Thread: An Open Source VB?

  1. #16
    Ben Matterson Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?



    Todd B wrote:
    >
    > Mark, Like you I have been reading quite a bit about open source
    > but to this day one question still nags at me. How the heck does
    > anyone make money so they can pay the bills and buy food?


    It depends on what one is open sourcing. For example, video card drivers
    would be great for open sourcing, because the companies involved sell
    the video cards, not the drivers.

    Ben

  2. #17
    Craig Clearman Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?

    Hi Ben,

    >It depends on what one is open sourcing. For example, video card drivers
    >would be great for open sourcing, because the companies involved sell
    >the video cards, not the drivers.


    But could you publish enough information about the interfaces and
    optimization techniques for your cards without giving too much
    information to your competitors?

    Ciao, Craig


  3. #18
    Todd B Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?

    Hi,

    > Almost forgot whats important to you. How do you get paid? Developing

    features
    > and support and trainning and scaling the program and updating to VB7 and
    > rewritting to accomodate new/specific business practices and .... As

    your
    > own man. Based on a powerful paradigm <-there goes that ugly word again>
    > the 'open source' pppp...never mind. Get it?



    I still do not get it - but from this point of view. VB has become a very
    popular language. Much of that is due to the third party developers who
    supported the language with COM objects, .dll's, ActiveX controls and
    programming addins. So, let's take those same vendors, set VB up as a
    open source market and put those same vendors in that market where they all
    now have to release open source else no one buys their products.

    All of them (or at least most of them) would go out of business. I will
    use ActiveX for this example. ActiveX can range from very small in size to
    medium or even large in size. Either way, many of them perform functions
    that require some very elaborate, detailed and impressive code to do what
    they do. But once you open the source up so the whole world can see it,
    there is no longer a competitive market for other ActiveX products to be
    released in that same category. Everyone can now see how it is done and can
    either make their own control or just copy the code and add it directly to
    their applications code.

    So what happens to all of those other companies? One wins and the others
    loose. Currently programmers can find at least 3 or 4 types of ActiveX in
    the market that work in the same area. Let's use Email ActiveX controls.
    Right now there is good competition and vendors have to work their butts off
    to be the best and convince programmers that their product is the email
    ActiveX control they should buy. You open all of this to open source, and
    there will not be competition because once a company releases a 'new'
    product, others, as I already mentioned, will just use that source (modified
    to their needs) or write their own now that they see how it is done.

    Sure, there are variations in each of the companies that create these
    controls now... some of more features, others have better features, some
    work and some don't. What is to stop that company that has an email control
    from not adding the same functionality that their competitor has?

    I guess I am missing something. I just do not see how open source promotes
    good, solid competition nor do I see how it drives companies to create
    better and more capable products in order to remain competitive in the
    market. To me open source, kills at least 80% of the competitive drive
    companies now have to create more and more good products. Out of the
    example I used, maybe two of those companies would still make enough to pay
    the bills. But an open source market would not allow for any more companies
    to survive.

    Keep in mind this is in regard to small/medium sized companies. Large
    companies like IBM and Microsoft that make monster apps will survive because
    the user base cannot operate and maintain systems that big without support.
    But maintaining smaller apps, ActiveX and other programs of the small nature
    do not require that type of 'support' base for everyone that buys it.

    I know this because I am part of Agendum Software. We have become known
    for the capability, power and ease of use of our products. 95% of our
    customers never need to contact us for support help on how to use our
    products - yes I am braggin a bit! ;-) - with that being the case, where
    would we make any money which is needed to pay the bills?? Do we start
    making shoddy products just to insure people and companies have to pay us
    for support?? I don't think so.

    You also mentioned that we could make money upgrading to VB7. Our customers
    all know that we do not charge for updates or upgrades of our products. We
    will also not charge for the support of those products (with exception to
    commercial contracts). We feel that if a customer purchases one of our
    products, then they also are entitled to and have purchased our full
    technical and Q&A support with that product - and they should NOT have to
    pay us for something that we feel they should get when they paid money for
    our product. When a customer puts their faith in us and our products, then
    we need to make sure that faith is not misguided. They get free support as
    long as they are the registered user of our products. Do we screw up
    sometimes? You bet. But we do not charge because we screwed up, we learn
    from it and make sure that any future customers get the best support (and
    product) we can deliver.

    I just do not see open source as a good solution for the entire software
    industry. Some areas, perhaps. But those areas I consider nitch areas.

    Your thoughts?
    --

    Sincerely,

    Todd B

    Confusion say * What goes around, Keeps going!*


    "spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote in message
    news:396bc4d5$1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > Todd,
    >
    > Mark's idea is bad only in one respect.....VB.... the language is

    proprietary
    > to *Microsoft*....duh! He seemed to imply he was going to duplicate the
    > language and not pay for it or get MS to agree. Try that with JAVA and

    see
    > what McNeally does to your sorry *ss when you change a spec. I can't

    believe
    > Mark got quoted by DEVX. The truth is I wrote to the GNU site's FAQs guy
    > many moons ago and asked if you could have an 'open source community'

    around
    > VB and from a licensing point of view he saw no problem. That is if I

    posted
    > a fully developed app's source code (including activex controls etc...) on
    > a website and defined it on the GNU License that would be okay given MS'
    > license agreement with VB developers. Imagine tying in XML. Now thats a
    > powerful thought. Imagine open source code for law enforcement officers
    > laptops, vacations booking,...... The list goes on. Just again in order
    > to keep your bill down to 5 bucks I'll quit now.
    >
    > Almost forgot whats important to you. How do you get paid? Developing

    features
    > and support and trainning and scaling the program and updating to VB7 and
    > rewritting to accomodate new/specific business practices and .... As

    your
    > own man. Based on a powerful paradigm <-there goes that ugly word again>
    > the 'open source' pppp...never mind. Get it?
    >
    > Just Kiddin'
    > Spiker ;- )>
    > -Lets burn the DEVX Java editor in effigy for not responding powerfully to
    > valid Java criticism.- Hey eddy-tor whose your boss man? Your letting
    > us down here. We may need to ask for a replacement player.
    >
    > "Todd B" <ToddB@NoSpam.AgendumSoftware.com> wrote:
    > >Mark, Like you I have been reading quite a bit about open source but to
    > >this day one question still nags at me. How the heck does anyone make
    > >money so they can pay the bills and buy food?
    > >
    > >Take Linux. There are a number of companies that now 'sell' it or at

    least
    > >they package it and sell the box which happens to include Linux. They

    > seem
    > >to also have some type of support contract they offer to companies and
    > >people that want to use Linux. Ok that is fine.. but you can only have

    > so
    > >many of those type companies.
    > >
    > >Thus, what happens to every other programmer? Let's say every

    programmer
    > >moves to Linux development whether it be C, C++ or whatever. Everything

    > is
    > >open source. Company A create programming tools, company B creates
    > >programming tools and so on in every category. Obviously since it is

    open
    > >source, they release it free and open to the world. What I want to

    know
    > >is who pays for the time and other expenses for the 2 or 3 years of
    > >development? After releasing the 'product' for free, where do they

    garner
    > >revenue to stay in business?
    > >
    > >There can only be so many 'companies' that offer 'support' for open

    source
    > >and that make enough money from that to survive.
    > >
    > >Your thread just made me think of this issue again so I figured I would

    > put
    > >the question out there. Can anyone reasonably explain how open source

    can
    > >be beneficial in the type of economic world we have today? If we lived

    > in
    > >a world where money did not exist and everyone had what they needed

    without
    > >the need for income, then sure. But for the life of me, I cannot see at

    > all
    > >why there is such a big push to go open source.
    > >
    > >--
    > >
    > >Sincerely,
    > >
    > >Todd B
    > >
    > >Confusion say * What goes around, Keeps going!*
    > >
    > >
    > >"Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote in message
    > >news:394e1c2b$1@news.devx.com...
    > >>
    > >> G'day -
    > >>
    > >> I have a background in VB, but have recently been looking at Java. This

    > >has
    > >> led me to read about the concept of Open Source, copyleft et al. I

    hadn't
    > >> realised how much work had been done by some of these guys - it's quite

    > >incredible.
    > >> Unfortunately, it is being done by such a minority group. And a lot of

    > >these
    > >> people seem to have an unfortunate tendency to look down on certain

    > >groups.
    > >> For instance, in the otherwise enlightening "How To Become A Hacker"

    > >(http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html),
    > >> Eric S. Raymond has this to say:
    > >>
    > >> ----------------------------------------------------------

    > >
    > >
    > >

    >




  4. #19
    Todd B Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?

    Ben, Now that is an area that can work in open source. I agree with you.

    --

    Sincerely,

    Todd B

    Confusion say * What goes around, Keeps going!*


    "Ben Matterson" <boam@got.net> wrote in message
    news:396DF6C7.E75BFD78@got.net...
    >
    >
    > Todd B wrote:
    > >
    > > Mark, Like you I have been reading quite a bit about open source
    > > but to this day one question still nags at me. How the heck does
    > > anyone make money so they can pay the bills and buy food?

    >
    > It depends on what one is open sourcing. For example, video card drivers
    > would be great for open sourcing, because the companies involved sell
    > the video cards, not the drivers.
    >
    > Ben




  5. #20
    James Curran Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?

    Eric Raymond was a speech (which I haven't heard) which supposed to
    explain all this. Basically, it assumes that everyone will be consultants
    writing custom (non-OSS) apps for individual companies or a consulting Linux
    SysAdmin (apparently, once we all switch over to this perfectly-stable,
    all-around-great OS, there will be a great need for top-quality SysAdmins --
    makes you wonder....)

    --
    Truth,
    James Curran
    http://www.NJTheater.com (Professional)
    http://www.NovelTheory.com (Personal)
    http://www.BrandsForLess.com (Day Job)


    "Todd B" <ToddB@NoSpam.AgendumSoftware.com> wrote in message
    news:396b012e$1@news.devx.com...
    > Mark, Like you I have been reading quite a bit about open source but to
    > this day one question still nags at me. How the heck does anyone make
    > money so they can pay the bills and buy food?





  6. #21
    James Curran Guest

    Re: An Open Source VB?

    "spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote in message
    news:396bc4d5$1@news.devx.com...
    > Mark's idea is bad only in one respect.....VB.... the language is

    proprietary
    > to *Microsoft*....duh! He seemed to imply he was going to duplicate the
    > language and not pay for it or get MS to agree. Try that with JAVA and

    see
    > what McNeally does to your sorry *ss when you change a spec.


    The Basic language existed before Microsoft & VB, and MS's alterations
    aren't significant and it would be hard for them to claim proprietary
    ownership of them. Also, MS has *never* initiated a lawsuit over a
    technical matter (they have countersuit when someone else sued them first;
    and they have sued over trademark matters). And McNeally may rant & rage
    (Really, is he good for anything else?) But unless you call your clone
    "Java (TM)" or license Sun's source code, he wouldn't have much to stand on
    either. So, I doubt he has matter to fear from copying the *language.*

    Now, copying the IDE gets a bit trickier, as Lotus has legally proven
    that the "Look 'n' Feel" of a program is copyrightable. Still, I don't
    think Microsoft will be concerned enough to take legal action. The clone
    will almost always be one version behind (They can't start working on the
    version 7 clone until v7 has been released; if a VBv7 beta tester were to
    work on the clone, that would clearly be a violation of his NDA, and would
    easily get him kicked out of the beta at the very least)

    --
    Truth,
    James Curran
    http://www.NJTheater.com (Professional)
    http://www.NovelTheory.com (Personal)
    http://www.BrandsForLess.com (Day Job)





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