c# = Class(CLanguage, IDelphi, IJava)


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Thread: c# = Class(CLanguage, IDelphi, IJava)

  1. #1
    Nix Guest

    c# = Class(CLanguage, IDelphi, IJava)


    What a surprise. Anders Hejlsberg has evidently been busy. I left VB for Delphi
    back at VB4/5. By the first looks of c# it may well be time to come back
    to the fold.
    Does anybody have any idea in what form (sic) the windows.net runtime will
    be delivered, I suspect it may become part of ie and allow web developers
    to write well organised, structured, rich gui apps straight into the browser,
    which IMHO is a capability that HTML still lacks and DHTML is a shameless
    work around. I cant say Im overly bothered about true cross platform support
    although support for the Mac would be an easy bonus.
    Provided MS pays careful attention to the security issues that made ActiveX
    in a browser almost a complete failure, I suspect they may be onto a winner.

    Personally Ive never been convinced that HTML is the correct vehicle to deliver
    complex apps across the web. Although DHTML goes some way to addressing this,
    the resulting code is still messy, hard to read, and therfore difficult to
    maintain. It also relies to a certain extent on code that generates code,
    and in the history of bad ideas, that ranks right up there with square wheels.

    I suppose at this stage everyone has their own idea about what windows.net
    could be. A runtime that allows you to take advantage of the widely installed
    windows GUI, and easily access web services, without presenting security
    problems within the browser would be a cracking start.

    Nix



  2. #2
    Robin Guest

    Re: c# = Class(CLanguage, IDelphi, IJava)


    Very interesting. I'm trying to decide the language/archetecture to build
    an application server that is both fast and, if possible, flexible. Any ideas
    how to do that in C++. J2EE has captured the app server development community
    - I guess due to flexibility - but I want to build one where speed is critical.
    Any suggestions how to archetect something that runs very close to the machine
    and yet can be customised to adress accomodate different business rules,
    business logic, presentation logic etc.? Sorry to be dumb, but what is c#?
    And IMHO?

    Thanks in advance. Please email me: andorra5@aol.com

    "Nix" <a@b.c> wrote:
    >
    >What a surprise. Anders Hejlsberg has evidently been busy. I left VB for

    Delphi
    >back at VB4/5. By the first looks of c# it may well be time to come back
    >to the fold.
    >Does anybody have any idea in what form (sic) the windows.net runtime will
    >be delivered, I suspect it may become part of ie and allow web developers
    >to write well organised, structured, rich gui apps straight into the browser,
    >which IMHO is a capability that HTML still lacks and DHTML is a shameless
    >work around. I cant say Im overly bothered about true cross platform support
    >although support for the Mac would be an easy bonus.
    >Provided MS pays careful attention to the security issues that made ActiveX
    >in a browser almost a complete failure, I suspect they may be onto a winner.
    >
    >Personally Ive never been convinced that HTML is the correct vehicle to

    deliver
    >complex apps across the web. Although DHTML goes some way to addressing

    this,
    >the resulting code is still messy, hard to read, and therfore difficult

    to
    >maintain. It also relies to a certain extent on code that generates code,
    >and in the history of bad ideas, that ranks right up there with square wheels.
    >
    >I suppose at this stage everyone has their own idea about what windows.net
    >could be. A runtime that allows you to take advantage of the widely installed
    >windows GUI, and easily access web services, without presenting security
    >problems within the browser would be a cracking start.
    >
    >Nix
    >
    >



  3. #3
    Oren Guest

    Re: c# = Class(CLanguage, IDelphi, IJava)


    > an application server that is both fast and, if possible, flexible. Any

    ideas
    > how to do that in C++.


    Build your own flexible object model in optimized c++ code, :0)

    Oren



  4. #4
    spiker Guest

    Re: c# = Class(CLanguage, IDelphi, IJava)


    Nix-
    I enjoy asp'ing. Its like puzzle solving programs. After awhile minesweeper,
    even if you add more mines, becomes almost intuitive/thoughtless - and then
    you crash. In large part though I do agree with you, code generating code
    is not accessible to the widest possible programming audience. If your serious
    you should give PHP a shot. Instead of html embedded in code its code embedded
    in html. Not quite perfect though, its C/C++ syntax is a trade off and ...
    gasp ... its an open source community idea?!?!?

    Spiker ;-)>

    "Nix" <a@b.c> wrote:
    >
    >What a surprise. Anders Hejlsberg has evidently been busy. I left VB for

    Delphi
    >back at VB4/5. By the first looks of c# it may well be time to come back
    >to the fold.
    >Does anybody have any idea in what form (sic) the windows.net runtime will
    >be delivered, I suspect it may become part of ie and allow web developers
    >to write well organised, structured, rich gui apps straight into the browser,
    >which IMHO is a capability that HTML still lacks and DHTML is a shameless
    >work around. I cant say Im overly bothered about true cross platform support
    >although support for the Mac would be an easy bonus.
    >Provided MS pays careful attention to the security issues that made ActiveX
    >in a browser almost a complete failure, I suspect they may be onto a winner.
    >
    >Personally Ive never been convinced that HTML is the correct vehicle to

    deliver
    >complex apps across the web. Although DHTML goes some way to addressing

    this,
    >the resulting code is still messy, hard to read, and therfore difficult

    to
    >maintain. It also relies to a certain extent on code that generates code,
    >and in the history of bad ideas, that ranks right up there with square wheels.
    >
    >I suppose at this stage everyone has their own idea about what windows.net
    >could be. A runtime that allows you to take advantage of the widely installed
    >windows GUI, and easily access web services, without presenting security
    >problems within the browser would be a cracking start.
    >
    >Nix
    >
    >



  5. #5
    Spiker Guest

    Re: c# = Class(CLanguage, IDelphi, IJava)


    My mistake Nix. Blame it on the midnite hour post but you can embed asp into
    html too. I just been so used to banging out full html constructs within
    an asp statement(personal preference with so many resultset tables)I forget
    that. Oh well. So now I'm confused what's your issue again?

    Spiker...

    "spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote:
    >
    >Nix-
    > I enjoy asp'ing. Its like puzzle solving programs. After awhile minesweeper,
    >even if you add more mines, becomes almost intuitive/thoughtless - and then
    >you crash. In large part though I do agree with you, code generating code
    >is not accessible to the widest possible programming audience. If your

    serious
    >you should give PHP a shot. Instead of html embedded in code its code embedded
    >in html. Not quite perfect though, its C/C++ syntax is a trade off and

    ...
    >gasp ... its an open source community idea?!?!?
    >
    >Spiker ;-)>
    >
    >"Nix" <a@b.c> wrote:
    >>
    >>What a surprise. Anders Hejlsberg has evidently been busy. I left VB for

    >Delphi
    >>back at VB4/5. By the first looks of c# it may well be time to come back
    >>to the fold.
    >>Does anybody have any idea in what form (sic) the windows.net runtime will
    >>be delivered, I suspect it may become part of ie and allow web developers
    >>to write well organised, structured, rich gui apps straight into the browser,
    >>which IMHO is a capability that HTML still lacks and DHTML is a shameless
    >>work around. I cant say Im overly bothered about true cross platform support
    >>although support for the Mac would be an easy bonus.
    >>Provided MS pays careful attention to the security issues that made ActiveX
    >>in a browser almost a complete failure, I suspect they may be onto a winner.
    >>
    >>Personally Ive never been convinced that HTML is the correct vehicle to

    >deliver
    >>complex apps across the web. Although DHTML goes some way to addressing

    >this,
    >>the resulting code is still messy, hard to read, and therfore difficult

    >to
    >>maintain. It also relies to a certain extent on code that generates code,
    >>and in the history of bad ideas, that ranks right up there with square

    wheels.
    >>
    >>I suppose at this stage everyone has their own idea about what windows.net
    >>could be. A runtime that allows you to take advantage of the widely installed
    >>windows GUI, and easily access web services, without presenting security
    >>problems within the browser would be a cracking start.
    >>
    >>Nix
    >>
    >>

    >



  6. #6
    Nix Guest

    Re: c# = Class(CLanguage, IDelphi, IJava)


    Well the issue is precisely what you are describing. The whole idea of having
    to embed javascript and asp code (that may generate more javascript) inside
    HTML code is an abomination.
    Please dont misunderstand me HTML is a great way to describe a document,
    same as RTF is. Even MS Word Format seems to keep most people happy. All
    are capable of describing data in a rich presentational style. But its not
    a good for building network applications.
    I dont know how much commercial programming youve done, but have you ever
    had the misfortune to come across programs that have been written entirely
    in Microsoft Word?

    Certainly a few years ago this was surprisingly common. IT was almost as
    if the Word Basic programmers thought to themselves "we can so we will".
    That doesn't neccessarily make it a good idea.
    In the main these type of programs have not stood the test of time very well
    becasuse they are fiendishly difficult to maintain and many compromises are
    made to try and get word to do what it really wasnt designed for.

    The reason why MS C# .NET initiative is so interesting is that maybe its
    an attempt to design as a internet application framework from the ground
    up.

    Personally I had great hopes that Java applets would fulfil their promise
    and provide this framework. Alas this doesnt seem to be true. For whatever
    reasons (everyone's are different) Java has spectacularly failed to make
    an impact on within the browser, or client aplication development. Part of
    this has to do with the poor implementation of the AWT and the time that
    it takes to download the swing library to present a rich client.

    I suspect that MS plans to bypass this whole problem by relying on the fact
    that 90% of computer users already have a perfectly acceptable rich GUI API
    installed already (namely Windows).

    For Example If you disregard (for one moment) security issues inside the
    visual basic runtime, this provides you with everything you need to present
    a rich gui on a windows client.
    Simple VB programs that sit on top of the runtime are actually very small.
    The BASIC source code is even smaller. compile time is next to Nil.

    Its not a great leap of imagination to think of redesigning the VB runtime
    so that VB programs could be hosted in a browser.
    But I think MS has bigger designs than that. Lets say you threw away all
    the VB baggage including the language and wanted to redesign an internet
    application framework from scratch.

    What would you need to do this properly?

    1. Dominant maket share & Control of the Browser Source Code (IE)

    2. A good understanding/ code base of building runtime interpreters. (VB)

    3. A typesafe method of passing data from client to server. (XML)

    4. A method of executing functions on a server (SOAP)

    5. A pretty 00 language that would compile blindingly quick at the client,
    use secure runtime interpreter, map easily onto (XML) data structures and
    easily make SOAP calls... (Delphi + Java + (XML) + (SOAP)= c#)

    6. An *absolutely* secure runtime that provides a sandbox for these programs
    to run in. (Windows.NET)


    Clearly this is pure speculation but it seems to me that someone just got
    to step 5. What is less than clear is whether they undertstand the necessity
    for security in step 6.


    We will have to wait and see.

    Nix








    HTML is a great way to store a

    "Spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote:
    >
    >My mistake Nix. Blame it on the midnite hour post but you can embed asp

    into
    >html too. I just been so used to banging out full html constructs within
    >an asp statement(personal preference with so many resultset tables)I forget
    >that. Oh well. So now I'm confused what's your issue again?
    >
    >Spiker...
    >
    >"spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>Nix-
    >> I enjoy asp'ing. Its like puzzle solving programs. After awhile minesweeper,
    >>even if you add more mines, becomes almost intuitive/thoughtless - and

    then
    >>you crash. In large part though I do agree with you, code generating code
    >>is not accessible to the widest possible programming audience. If your

    >serious
    >>you should give PHP a shot. Instead of html embedded in code its code

    embedded
    >>in html. Not quite perfect though, its C/C++ syntax is a trade off and

    >...
    >>gasp ... its an open source community idea?!?!?
    >>
    >>Spiker ;-)>
    >>
    >>"Nix" <a@b.c> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>What a surprise. Anders Hejlsberg has evidently been busy. I left VB for

    >>Delphi
    >>>back at VB4/5. By the first looks of c# it may well be time to come back
    >>>to the fold.
    >>>Does anybody have any idea in what form (sic) the windows.net runtime

    will
    >>>be delivered, I suspect it may become part of ie and allow web developers
    >>>to write well organised, structured, rich gui apps straight into the browser,
    >>>which IMHO is a capability that HTML still lacks and DHTML is a shameless
    >>>work around. I cant say Im overly bothered about true cross platform support
    >>>although support for the Mac would be an easy bonus.
    >>>Provided MS pays careful attention to the security issues that made ActiveX
    >>>in a browser almost a complete failure, I suspect they may be onto a winner.
    >>>
    >>>Personally Ive never been convinced that HTML is the correct vehicle to

    >>deliver
    >>>complex apps across the web. Although DHTML goes some way to addressing

    >>this,
    >>>the resulting code is still messy, hard to read, and therfore difficult

    >>to
    >>>maintain. It also relies to a certain extent on code that generates code,
    >>>and in the history of bad ideas, that ranks right up there with square

    >wheels.
    >>>
    >>>I suppose at this stage everyone has their own idea about what windows.net
    >>>could be. A runtime that allows you to take advantage of the widely installed
    >>>windows GUI, and easily access web services, without presenting security
    >>>problems within the browser would be a cracking start.
    >>>
    >>>Nix
    >>>
    >>>

    >>

    >



  7. #7
    spiker Guest

    Re: c# = Class(CLanguage, IDelphi, IJava)


    Nix-
    All well taken points. Shows good insight. I have not though had the misfortune
    to have deal with VBA-Word programs so I barely can even empathize. Sounds
    ghoulish and that is the main reason VB programmers have a bad rep with c/c++
    coders. One thing though I have learned is that people are simple(this shouldn't
    be taken as bad as it sounds). Give them a simple app and they love you.
    HTML generated from code can make you find simpler answers which is a lesson
    in itself.

    That said though. I don't think Microsoft is the answer entirely. There
    are several viable operating systems that if they were posix compliant could
    be coded to in a reasonable facsimile to a platform independent fashion.
    Creating multiple compiles and serving them platform specific is not a nutty
    idea. I don't care what people may think. The nutty thing is the conversion
    from one to the other before the compile. A standard makes it easier.

    In as much the biologic world benefits from heterogeneity so does the computer
    world in regards to worms, virus, etc... Not many Unix/Linux boxes were
    affected by the Luv bug? Trully smart IT would use multiple OS's (one as
    backup) and I don't mean that in the MS concept of multiple OS's.

    One thing I am ignorant about are the runtime security issues you referred
    to. Could you give some examples. Are these intrinsic or can they be coded
    out. This an honest question.

    Spiker ;-) >

    P.S. I have made apps using IE as a container since VB5.0 so that point
    is a 'fait accompli'


  8. #8
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw Guest

    Re: c# = Class(CLanguage, IDelphi, IJava)


    Nix -

    >Its not a great leap of imagination to think of redesigning the VB runtime
    >so that VB programs could be hosted in a browser.


    Ever tried ActiveX Documents? Yuk! Unfortunately they weren't very good,
    and by VB6 Microsoft seemed to have changed their mind and instead sort of
    duplicated its functionality by bringing out DHTML Applications.

    I wonder if WebForms are ActiveX Documents done properly (but without the
    additional uses of ActiveX Documents)?

    -------------------------
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    Programmer/Analyst
    Prime Response
    Brentford
    UK


  9. #9
    Nix mappin Guest

    Re: c# = Class(CLanguage, IDelphi, IJava)


    I assume you are referring to what I know as Acitve forms. (at least thats
    what they called them in Delphi)

    Actually thats not a million miles off to what I think C# will deliver. The
    same could be said for Java applets.

    **BUT**

    There as three obvious reasons why active forms failed (even quicker than
    Java Applets)


    1. Security- any active form had total access to the windows API
    Im sure even the most basic VB programmer could have managed to import BOOL
    DeleteFile(LPCTSTR lpFileName); In fact Im sure VB supports the following
    statement (VBers please corrrect as necessary):- Kill "c:\windows\*.*"
    So any active form was a hackers paradise and most companies dropped it deservedly
    quickly.

    2. Data Retrieval - In order to get data for active forms (in a reasonably
    productive method) you had to have a data connectivity runtime installed
    on the client. For example ODBC with the appropriate driver to the remote
    DB which you couldnt distribute or guarantee, and in anycase, probably wouldnt
    make it past the firewall.


    3. Active forms still based them self on a page driven paradigm within the
    browser, and therefore lack the state management, continuity and togertherness
    of a fat client app.

    >I wonder if WebForms are ActiveX Documents done properly but without the

    additional uses of ActiveX Documents?

    I suspect they may well be an evolutionary step from this idea, but with
    considerable attention to what made them fail and not least to Java. That
    is why they wont run on windows directly. Instead will run on the windows.net
    runtime. Make no mistake, M$ has a real chance here to pick up the client
    where java and activex failed. To be fair, its not altogether clear that
    they admit or understand the reasons for the previous failures. If they screw
    up security just by one 'Feature', they might as well throw it all away.
    Then indeed we will be left with clumsy DHTML.

    That doesnt mean that C# shouldn't support native calls etc. but they should
    be restricted to unsafe blocks.. (see c# language ref doc). In fact it is
    the very existence of the unsafe Keyword in C# that encourages me to think
    they may be on to something.





    "Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote:
    >
    >Nix -
    >
    >>Its not a great leap of imagination to think of redesigning the VB runtime
    >>so that VB programs could be hosted in a browser.

    >
    >Ever tried ActiveX Documents? Yuk! Unfortunately they weren't very good,
    >and by VB6 Microsoft seemed to have changed their mind and instead sort

    of
    >duplicated its functionality by bringing out DHTML Applications.
    >
    >I wonder if WebForms are ActiveX Documents done properly (but without the
    >additional uses of ActiveX Documents)?
    >
    >-------------------------
    >Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    >Programmer/Analyst
    >Prime Response
    >Brentford
    >UK
    >



  10. #10
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw Guest

    Re: c# = Class(CLanguage, IDelphi, IJava)


    "Nix" mappin wrote:
    >
    >I assume you are referring to what I know as Acitve forms. (at least thats
    >what they called them in Delphi)
    >


    Nix -

    I can't say I have heard of "ActiveForms" - the last brush with Delphi was
    with v2.0 (and a **** fine language IMHO). However I though that Microsoft
    got first dibs with anything with "Active" in the title! ActiveX Documents
    (or UserDocuments as they are called in VB) are a technology that has been
    around for some time (.doc and .xls files are ActiveX Documents which happen
    to be associated with a particular ActiveX Document EXE server, namely Word
    and Excel respectively). When Microsoft decided to rewrite the IE architecture
    (in IE3) so that it was the host for any ActiveX Document (including HTML),
    it made sense for VB to take advantage of this fact, and be able to create
    ActiveX Document servers. In this case, the actual ActiveX documents are
    the .vbd file, which are essentially OLE Storage documents (in which it is
    possible to store properties). In theory, it was a good idea. But in practice,
    there was confusion as to what they should actually be used for [question:
    for all the effort that Microsoft marketing people put into . In the end,
    ActiveX Controls could do pretty much everything that they could, and had
    more hosts. Apart from IE3+, the only other host is the Microsoft Office
    Binder (and who uses that) - oh, and the VB IDE.

    -------------------------
    Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    Programmer/Analyst
    Prime Response
    Brentford
    UK


  11. #11
    Nix mappin Guest

    Re: c# = Class(CLanguage, IDelphi, IJava)


    Evidently not the same thing then, Acitve forms in Delphi allowed you to design
    a form, compile it, then run it inside a browser as an active x control.
    Naturally it didnt catch on for the security reasons mentioned in the previous
    post.


    "Mark Alexander Bertenshaw" <mark.bertenshaw@virgin.net> wrote:
    >
    >"Nix" mappin wrote:
    >>
    >>I assume you are referring to what I know as Acitve forms. (at least thats
    >>what they called them in Delphi)
    >>

    >
    >Nix -
    >
    >I can't say I have heard of "ActiveForms" - the last brush with Delphi was
    >with v2.0 (and a **** fine language IMHO). However I though that Microsoft
    >got first dibs with anything with "Active" in the title! ActiveX Documents
    >(or UserDocuments as they are called in VB) are a technology that has been
    >around for some time (.doc and .xls files are ActiveX Documents which happen
    >to be associated with a particular ActiveX Document EXE server, namely Word
    >and Excel respectively). When Microsoft decided to rewrite the IE architecture
    >(in IE3) so that it was the host for any ActiveX Document (including HTML),
    >it made sense for VB to take advantage of this fact, and be able to create
    >ActiveX Document servers. In this case, the actual ActiveX documents are
    >the .vbd file, which are essentially OLE Storage documents (in which it

    is
    >possible to store properties). In theory, it was a good idea. But in practice,
    >there was confusion as to what they should actually be used for [question:
    >for all the effort that Microsoft marketing people put into . In the end,
    >ActiveX Controls could do pretty much everything that they could, and had
    >more hosts. Apart from IE3+, the only other host is the Microsoft Office
    >Binder (and who uses that) - oh, and the VB IDE.
    >
    >-------------------------
    >Mark Alexander Bertenshaw
    >Programmer/Analyst
    >Prime Response
    >Brentford
    >UK
    >



  12. #12
    Chris Kinsman Guest

    Re: c# = Class(CLanguage, IDelphi, IJava)

    ASP+ solves most of the code intermixing with HTML problems. Pretty elegant
    model actually...


    "Nix" <mappin@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:39648aa1$1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > Well the issue is precisely what you are describing. The whole idea of

    having
    > to embed javascript and asp code (that may generate more javascript)

    inside
    > HTML code is an abomination.
    > Please dont misunderstand me HTML is a great way to describe a document,
    > same as RTF is. Even MS Word Format seems to keep most people happy. All
    > are capable of describing data in a rich presentational style. But its

    not
    > a good for building network applications.
    > I dont know how much commercial programming youve done, but have you ever
    > had the misfortune to come across programs that have been written

    entirely
    > in Microsoft Word?
    >
    > Certainly a few years ago this was surprisingly common. IT was almost as
    > if the Word Basic programmers thought to themselves "we can so we will".
    > That doesn't neccessarily make it a good idea.
    > In the main these type of programs have not stood the test of time very

    well
    > becasuse they are fiendishly difficult to maintain and many compromises

    are
    > made to try and get word to do what it really wasnt designed for.
    >
    > The reason why MS C# .NET initiative is so interesting is that maybe its
    > an attempt to design as a internet application framework from the ground
    > up.
    >
    > Personally I had great hopes that Java applets would fulfil their promise
    > and provide this framework. Alas this doesnt seem to be true. For whatever
    > reasons (everyone's are different) Java has spectacularly failed to make
    > an impact on within the browser, or client aplication development. Part of
    > this has to do with the poor implementation of the AWT and the time that
    > it takes to download the swing library to present a rich client.
    >
    > I suspect that MS plans to bypass this whole problem by relying on the

    fact
    > that 90% of computer users already have a perfectly acceptable rich GUI AP

    I
    > installed already (namely Windows).
    >
    > For Example If you disregard (for one moment) security issues inside the
    > visual basic runtime, this provides you with everything you need to

    present
    > a rich gui on a windows client.
    > Simple VB programs that sit on top of the runtime are actually very small.
    > The BASIC source code is even smaller. compile time is next to Nil.
    >
    > Its not a great leap of imagination to think of redesigning the VB runtime
    > so that VB programs could be hosted in a browser.
    > But I think MS has bigger designs than that. Lets say you threw away all
    > the VB baggage including the language and wanted to redesign an internet
    > application framework from scratch.
    >
    > What would you need to do this properly?
    >
    > 1. Dominant maket share & Control of the Browser Source Code (IE)
    >
    > 2. A good understanding/ code base of building runtime interpreters. (VB)
    >
    > 3. A typesafe method of passing data from client to server. (XML)
    >
    > 4. A method of executing functions on a server (SOAP)
    >
    > 5. A pretty 00 language that would compile blindingly quick at the client,
    > use secure runtime interpreter, map easily onto (XML) data structures and
    > easily make SOAP calls... (Delphi + Java + (XML) + (SOAP)= c#)
    >
    > 6. An *absolutely* secure runtime that provides a sandbox for these

    programs
    > to run in. (Windows.NET)
    >
    >
    > Clearly this is pure speculation but it seems to me that someone just got
    > to step 5. What is less than clear is whether they undertstand the

    necessity
    > for security in step 6.
    >
    >
    > We will have to wait and see.
    >
    > Nix
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > HTML is a great way to store a
    >
    > "Spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote:
    > >
    > >My mistake Nix. Blame it on the midnite hour post but you can embed asp

    > into
    > >html too. I just been so used to banging out full html constructs within
    > >an asp statement(personal preference with so many resultset tables)I

    forget
    > >that. Oh well. So now I'm confused what's your issue again?
    > >
    > >Spiker...
    > >
    > >"spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>Nix-
    > >> I enjoy asp'ing. Its like puzzle solving programs. After awhile

    minesweeper,
    > >>even if you add more mines, becomes almost intuitive/thoughtless - and

    > then
    > >>you crash. In large part though I do agree with you, code generating

    code
    > >>is not accessible to the widest possible programming audience. If your

    > >serious
    > >>you should give PHP a shot. Instead of html embedded in code its code

    > embedded
    > >>in html. Not quite perfect though, its C/C++ syntax is a trade off and

    > >...
    > >>gasp ... its an open source community idea?!?!?
    > >>
    > >>Spiker ;-)>
    > >>
    > >>"Nix" <a@b.c> wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>>What a surprise. Anders Hejlsberg has evidently been busy. I left VB

    for
    > >>Delphi
    > >>>back at VB4/5. By the first looks of c# it may well be time to come

    back
    > >>>to the fold.
    > >>>Does anybody have any idea in what form (sic) the windows.net runtime

    > will
    > >>>be delivered, I suspect it may become part of ie and allow web

    developers
    > >>>to write well organised, structured, rich gui apps straight into the

    browser,
    > >>>which IMHO is a capability that HTML still lacks and DHTML is a

    shameless
    > >>>work around. I cant say Im overly bothered about true cross platform

    support
    > >>>although support for the Mac would be an easy bonus.
    > >>>Provided MS pays careful attention to the security issues that made

    ActiveX
    > >>>in a browser almost a complete failure, I suspect they may be onto a

    winner.
    > >>>
    > >>>Personally Ive never been convinced that HTML is the correct vehicle to
    > >>deliver
    > >>>complex apps across the web. Although DHTML goes some way to addressing
    > >>this,
    > >>>the resulting code is still messy, hard to read, and therfore difficult
    > >>to
    > >>>maintain. It also relies to a certain extent on code that generates

    code,
    > >>>and in the history of bad ideas, that ranks right up there with square

    > >wheels.
    > >>>
    > >>>I suppose at this stage everyone has their own idea about what

    windows.net
    > >>>could be. A runtime that allows you to take advantage of the widely

    installed
    > >>>windows GUI, and easily access web services, without presenting

    security
    > >>>problems within the browser would be a cracking start.
    > >>>
    > >>>Nix
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>

    > >

    >




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