Whats the deal with Fox?


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Thread: Whats the deal with Fox?

  1. #1
    Joe C. Guest

    Whats the deal with Fox?


    What is MS going to do with this tool? I found Patrick Meader's comments somewhat
    humorous and sad at the same time on Fox being a Junior Varsity Langauge.
    Why does it continue to stay in the suite if it is not sharing the common
    runtime? Seems like it has been off the beaten path of Visual Studio for
    a long time.

  2. #2
    John V. Petersen Guest

    Re: Whats the deal with Fox?

    Personally, I don't think it has been off the beaten path. Yes, the next
    version of Visual Studio is a fairly radical change. However, it is far too
    early to make any sort of conclusions about what is going to happen to the
    product. Are VS and VFP on divergent paths? It would appear to be the case.
    Is this a bad thing for VFP? I don' t think so. I have solicited comments
    from folks in the VFP camp to get their feelings about the future and the JV
    comment.

    With respect to the JV comment, no doubt that was a bit of a slam. Nobody
    likes it when somebody outside the community "disses" their dev tool. The VB
    community does not like it, and the VFP community is no different. Also, it
    would appear that VFP apps for the most part, follow a different model than
    what VS is/will be predicated upon. So, with this in mind, I don't think the
    VFP community cares.

    Should Fox be part of VS? That is a debatable point. Which do VFP developers
    care about more - the fact that it is a MS product or that it is in the VS
    suite? Personally, I think more folks care about the fact that it is a MS
    product.

    As long as MS continues to make the tool better in regards to building
    VFP-type apps, I personally don't think there is much for the VFP community
    to worry about...

    My 2-cents...

    < JVP >

    "Joe C." <joec@nomail.com> wrote in message news:3974729f$1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > What is MS going to do with this tool? I found Patrick Meader's comments

    somewhat
    > humorous and sad at the same time on Fox being a Junior Varsity Langauge.
    > Why does it continue to stay in the suite if it is not sharing the common
    > runtime? Seems like it has been off the beaten path of Visual Studio for
    > a long time.




  3. #3
    Robert Scoble Guest

    Re: Whats the deal with Fox?

    The question will be faced by developers, though: how does VFP play in the
    ".net" world?

    It seems that it's advantages (if there are any) are slowly disappearing.

    Why would a .net programmer decide to use VFP vs. SQL Server 2000 and Visual
    Basic.NET or C#?

    Robert Scoble
    http://conferences.devx.com

    ###



    "John V. Petersen" <jpetersen@mainlinesoftware.com> wrote in message
    news:3977a806@news.devx.com...
    > Personally, I don't think it has been off the beaten path. Yes, the next
    > version of Visual Studio is a fairly radical change. However, it is far

    too
    > early to make any sort of conclusions about what is going to happen to the
    > product. Are VS and VFP on divergent paths? It would appear to be the

    case.
    > Is this a bad thing for VFP? I don' t think so. I have solicited comments
    > from folks in the VFP camp to get their feelings about the future and the

    JV
    > comment.
    >
    > With respect to the JV comment, no doubt that was a bit of a slam. Nobody
    > likes it when somebody outside the community "disses" their dev tool. The

    VB
    > community does not like it, and the VFP community is no different. Also,

    it
    > would appear that VFP apps for the most part, follow a different model

    than
    > what VS is/will be predicated upon. So, with this in mind, I don't think

    the
    > VFP community cares.
    >
    > Should Fox be part of VS? That is a debatable point. Which do VFP

    developers
    > care about more - the fact that it is a MS product or that it is in the VS
    > suite? Personally, I think more folks care about the fact that it is a MS
    > product.
    >
    > As long as MS continues to make the tool better in regards to building
    > VFP-type apps, I personally don't think there is much for the VFP

    community
    > to worry about...
    >
    > My 2-cents...
    >
    > < JVP >
    >
    > "Joe C." <joec@nomail.com> wrote in message

    news:3974729f$1@news.devx.com...
    > >
    > > What is MS going to do with this tool? I found Patrick Meader's comments

    > somewhat
    > > humorous and sad at the same time on Fox being a Junior Varsity Langauge

    ..
    > > Why does it continue to stay in the suite if it is not sharing the

    common
    > > runtime? Seems like it has been off the beaten path of Visual Studio for
    > > a long time.

    >
    >




  4. #4
    Patrick Meader Guest

    Re: Whats the deal with Fox?

    John:

    It wasn't really my intent to slam anything, and I regretted the comment
    almost as soon as I said it. I was speaking off the top of my head, and it
    struck me as kind of funny in the micro-second between the point where it
    popped into my head and my actually saying it. I was really hoping the
    comment would go unnoticed.

    The larger point remains, however: VB is a full player in the .NET world;
    VFP isn't. As you said, how good or bad that is depends on your perspective
    and how important being able to plug into the CLR is to you.

    Patrick Meader
    editor in chief, VBPJ




  5. #5
    John V. Petersen Guest

    Re: Whats the deal with Fox?

    Hi Robert..

    A .Net Programmer should choose VB or C#. A VFP developer should choose VFP.
    A very simple question..

    FWIW, I agree with the notion that for all intents and purposes, going
    forward, the only thing VFP and VS sharing is the box. Yes, you will be able
    to build web services in VFP and you can build COM and will be able to
    build COM+ components in VFP. However, you can/will be able to do the same
    things in VB. For the VFP developer, the improvements made are important. In
    the context of the VS world, I would contend that the improvements are not
    all that significant. After all, a VB developer is not all of a sudden,
    going to start using VFP.

    Personally, I see VFP being as much a part of Visual Studio as Delphi...<
    vbg >.. But, that is not to say that I think VFP is a bad tool. It is a
    great tool. I look at it this way. VS and VFP hit a fork in the road. VS is
    going down one path. VFP is going down the other path. Why? Because we are
    now talking about two distinct types of development.

    If I am going to build a .net app, I will use VS.Net. If I need to build a
    VFP type app, I will use VFP. So, the real question is how much VFP type
    apps will be marginalized in the future. My answer - NOT ONE IOTA. There
    will always be a market for these types of apps. small/medium size business
    depend on the types of apps VFP builds. Many of these folks don't require
    what VS.Net is bringing to bear. And, if they do need web capabilities, VFP
    can do that as well.

    I do agree that the product does need to be promoted more than what it is
    now. Much of this will depend on where the product lives. If it is inside
    the VS box, it will not get marketed or promoted at all. Take it out of the
    box, and I think it can have a prosperous life.

    < JVP >


    "Robert Scoble" <rscoble@fawcette.com> wrote in message
    news:3977cb71$1@news.devx.com...
    > The question will be faced by developers, though: how does VFP play in the
    > ".net" world?
    >
    > It seems that it's advantages (if there are any) are slowly disappearing.
    >
    > Why would a .net programmer decide to use VFP vs. SQL Server 2000 and

    Visual
    > Basic.NET or C#?
    >
    > Robert Scoble
    > http://conferences.devx.com
    >
    > ###
    >
    >
    >
    > "John V. Petersen" <jpetersen@mainlinesoftware.com> wrote in message
    > news:3977a806@news.devx.com...
    > > Personally, I don't think it has been off the beaten path. Yes, the next
    > > version of Visual Studio is a fairly radical change. However, it is far

    > too
    > > early to make any sort of conclusions about what is going to happen to

    the
    > > product. Are VS and VFP on divergent paths? It would appear to be the

    > case.
    > > Is this a bad thing for VFP? I don' t think so. I have solicited

    comments
    > > from folks in the VFP camp to get their feelings about the future and

    the
    > JV
    > > comment.
    > >
    > > With respect to the JV comment, no doubt that was a bit of a slam.

    Nobody
    > > likes it when somebody outside the community "disses" their dev tool.

    The
    > VB
    > > community does not like it, and the VFP community is no different. Also,

    > it
    > > would appear that VFP apps for the most part, follow a different model

    > than
    > > what VS is/will be predicated upon. So, with this in mind, I don't think

    > the
    > > VFP community cares.
    > >
    > > Should Fox be part of VS? That is a debatable point. Which do VFP

    > developers
    > > care about more - the fact that it is a MS product or that it is in the

    VS
    > > suite? Personally, I think more folks care about the fact that it is a

    MS
    > > product.
    > >
    > > As long as MS continues to make the tool better in regards to building
    > > VFP-type apps, I personally don't think there is much for the VFP

    > community
    > > to worry about...
    > >
    > > My 2-cents...
    > >
    > > < JVP >
    > >
    > > "Joe C." <joec@nomail.com> wrote in message

    > news:3974729f$1@news.devx.com...
    > > >
    > > > What is MS going to do with this tool? I found Patrick Meader's

    comments
    > > somewhat
    > > > humorous and sad at the same time on Fox being a Junior Varsity

    Langauge
    > .
    > > > Why does it continue to stay in the suite if it is not sharing the

    > common
    > > > runtime? Seems like it has been off the beaten path of Visual Studio

    for
    > > > a long time.

    > >
    > >

    >
    >




  6. #6
    John V. Petersen Guest

    Re: Whats the deal with Fox?

    Hi Patrick..

    It was a tough comment..< bg >. However, it was a comment that was not
    entirely without some truth. I understand the context from which you were
    making the comment. VB, C++, and C# are going down a common path. VFP is
    over on the sidelines to some extent. The focus of VS.Net is on VB, C++, and
    C#. The Varsity Players always get the focus and the glory. The Junior
    Varsity Players don't get the limelight. They sit and wait, taking the
    chances that come their way.

    Despite it being hard-hitting, in retrospect, it was not a bad analogy. Of
    course, it is easier for me to say this 4 days hence...

    So, with that in mind, your larger point was received and understood...

    Best,

    < JVP >

    "Patrick Meader" <pmeader@fawcette.com> wrote in message
    news:3977ea1e@news.devx.com...
    > John:
    >
    > It wasn't really my intent to slam anything, and I regretted the comment
    > almost as soon as I said it. I was speaking off the top of my head, and it
    > struck me as kind of funny in the micro-second between the point where it
    > popped into my head and my actually saying it. I was really hoping the
    > comment would go unnoticed.
    >
    > The larger point remains, however: VB is a full player in the .NET world;
    > VFP isn't. As you said, how good or bad that is depends on your

    perspective
    > and how important being able to plug into the CLR is to you.
    >
    > Patrick Meader
    > editor in chief, VBPJ
    >
    >
    >




  7. #7
    Robert Scoble Guest

    Re: Whats the deal with Fox?

    > I do agree that the product does need to be promoted more than what it is
    > now. Much of this will depend on where the product lives. If it is inside
    > the VS box, it will not get marketed or promoted at all. Take it out of

    the
    > box, and I think it can have a prosperous life.


    Why do you believe that?

    I just don't understand why someone like me would choose to buy and use VFP
    in a "post VS.net" and "post SQL Server 2000" world.

    What features will I get by using VFP over the above?

    What kinds of apps will I be able to build that I won't be able to build
    with VS.net and SQL Server 2000?

    Robert Scoble

    ###



  8. #8
    Robert Scoble Guest

    Re: Whats the deal with Fox?

    > I think if your goal is to build a fairly self-contained desktop/2-tier
    > LAN-based application, VFP may well be the right choice. I am not sure if
    > VS.Net scales down to this level. Even if I am using SQL-Server, which by
    > the way I use exclusively, it does not preclude my use of VFP.
    > The types of apps that VFP is best at creating are still in use and will

    be
    > in use for a very long time. VFP fills an important niche.


    I don't disagree, but I don't recommend new developers learn VFP for just
    this reason. I can't see -- in the future -- doing this kind of development.

    Nearly all the Silicon Valley money is in multi-tier Internet applications.
    That means that future development will all be multi-tier (and probably
    won't be tied to only Microsoft stuff, but who knows about that).

    Seems VS.net knows how to play in this new world (via SOAP) but I still
    don't see why an Internet developer would even consider VFP.

    Yes, VFP development will continue to be done, but this trend does not bode
    well for future sales of VFP, does it?

    Robert Scoble

    ###



  9. #9
    John V. Petersen Guest

    Re: Whats the deal with Fox?

    Robert..

    I think if your goal is to build a fairly self-contained desktop/2-tier
    LAN-based application, VFP may well be the right choice. I am not sure if
    VS.Net scales down to this level. Even if I am using SQL-Server, which by
    the way I use exclusively, it does not preclude my use of VFP.

    The types of apps that VFP is best at creating are still in use and will be
    in use for a very long time. VFP fills an important niche.

    < JVP >


    "Robert Scoble" <rscoble@fawcette.com> wrote in message
    news:39785f9a$1@news.devx.com...
    > > I do agree that the product does need to be promoted more than what it

    is
    > > now. Much of this will depend on where the product lives. If it is

    inside
    > > the VS box, it will not get marketed or promoted at all. Take it out of

    > the
    > > box, and I think it can have a prosperous life.

    >
    > Why do you believe that?
    >
    > I just don't understand why someone like me would choose to buy and use

    VFP
    > in a "post VS.net" and "post SQL Server 2000" world.
    >
    > What features will I get by using VFP over the above?
    >
    > What kinds of apps will I be able to build that I won't be able to build
    > with VS.net and SQL Server 2000?
    >
    > Robert Scoble
    >
    > ###
    >
    >




  10. #10
    John V. Petersen Guest

    Re: Whats the deal with Fox?

    > I don't disagree, but I don't recommend new developers learn VFP for just
    > this reason. I can't see -- in the future -- doing this kind of

    development.

    Anybody starting out today - I WOULD NOT reccommend VFP. I agree with you
    here. VFP is great if you know VFP. But I in good conscience, reccommend
    somebody starting out today to pick up an learn VFP.

    > Nearly all the Silicon Valley money is in multi-tier Internet

    applications.
    > That means that future development will all be multi-tier (and probably
    > won't be tied to only Microsoft stuff, but who knows about that).


    I agree here. It depends on your perspective and the business you are trying
    to land. If you want to be in the multi-tier arena and have your tool of
    choice perceived as being credible for the task at hand, while I can tell
    you many tools you could use, one of them WOULD NOT be VFP..


    > >

    Seems VS.net knows how to play in this new world (via SOAP) but I still
    > don't see why an Internet developer would even consider VFP.


    When VFP is the only language you know, or are willing to know as is often
    the case, you don't have a choice...


    > Yes, VFP development will continue to be done, but this trend does not

    bode
    > well for future sales of VFP, does it?


    Sales for VFP can only decline. They can't go up, and almost nothing in
    business ever plateaus. You are either rising or falling... But again, most
    VFP developers - this one excluded of course - does'nt care. And that is too
    bad....

    < JVP >







  11. #11
    Robert Scoble Guest

    Re: Whats the deal with Fox?

    > Sales for VFP can only decline.

    This is the crux of why FTP doesn't care about VFP. If sales are going down
    that points to the fact that very few people will need new information
    sources.

    After all, who needs to read a magazine or come to a conference?

    It's someone who is trying to learn something new.

    If VFP'ers only consist of old-timers, then FTP can't really get too
    concerned about them. They really won't consume any of FTP's products, will
    they?

    Robert Scoble

    ###



  12. #12
    John V. Petersen Guest

    Re: Whats the deal with Fox?

    > This is the crux of why FTP doesn't care about VFP. If sales are going
    down
    > that points to the fact that very few people will need new information
    > sources.


    It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sales decline, so book/magazine
    publishers don't take interest. Where there is a lack of resources and
    marketing ,there is a lack of mindshare. Again, if the tool is not perceived
    as a best of breed tool, it is not. I don't care what in reality you can do
    with the tool, perception forms reality. Rarely, does the theorhetically
    best technology win. And that is not to say that VFP is the best.

    FWIW, if I were in your shoes, I would make the same decsion. It is not a
    market worth investing.

    > After all, who needs to read a magazine or come to a conference?


    Honestly, they don't. For the most part, the material is like bell-bottom
    jeans. They came back, and so do the topic. For the most part, the info out
    there is recycled. The challenge is in trying to find some creative way to
    word it differently..

    > It's someone who is trying to learn something new.


    That is where the growth is. That is where I would be investing time and
    money...

    > If VFP'ers only consist of old-timers, then FTP can't really get too
    > concerned about them. They really won't consume any of FTP's products,

    will
    > they?


    They are not old-timers. Many are new, because their shops use VFP. Most of
    these folks are in maintenance mode. And, for the new folks engaging in new
    projects, they are for the most part, not VS type apps. And with that in
    mind, it sounds to me like again, it is a market that DevX, like MS, is not
    interested in cultivating.

    Nice dialog Robert..... Thanks for taking the time..

    < JVP >





  13. #13
    Robert Scoble Guest

    Re: Whats the deal with Fox?

    > They are not old-timers. Many are new, because their shops use VFP. Most
    of
    > these folks are in maintenance mode. And, for the new folks engaging in

    new
    > projects, they are for the most part, not VS type apps. And with that in
    > mind, it sounds to me like again, it is a market that DevX, like MS, is

    not
    > interested in cultivating.


    When I say old-timers I mean shops have already decided on VFP and not many
    "new" shops will decide on VFP.

    Thanks too for the dialog. I was just trying to illuminate why VFP is on a
    declining spiral (er, some would even say death spiral). After all, if no
    one new buys (er, adopts, since Microsoft is gonna give it to everyone) VFP
    then it effectively is dead as a product and a market.

    Robert Scoble

    ###



  14. #14
    Charlie Coleman Guest

    Re: Whats the deal with Fox?


    This may be a late time to chime in on this thread, but here are a couple
    other thoughts.

    If VFP is truly declining (there is some evidence to the contrary), it is
    really only due to MS marketing. I've 'won' nearly every project where my
    'VFP' approach competed with a 'VB' or 'VC' approach. In some cases, they
    started in a different language and later came back to me to get it done.
    So, I count that a 'win'. And, in my experience, after a client experiences
    the 'advantages' of VFP (fast development time, low maintenance costs, extreme
    flexibility), they become 'converted' to a VFP 'shop' very quickly.

    Why doesn't MS market it? IMO, 2 main reasons. 1) MS 'believes' it would
    lose a lot of money if they would market VFP like they should. Most, if not
    all, SQL Server developments can be done using VFP databases. VFP has a royalty-free
    database. SQL Server has a quite expensive server and per-seat cost. 2) VB
    is Gates 'baby' - I imagine his first 'favorite' language. So, if VFP were
    given the proper attention, I doubt VB would be used any more. It would be
    relegated to MS Office 'scripting', etc. So, as noted before, no one wants
    their 'favorite' language to die.

    And, finally, if MS chooses not to bring VFP fully into the .Net (or whatever
    buzzword they use now) suite, that's fine by me. We've been using VFP for
    just about ALL our Web developments for some time now. Yes, it's not a "native"
    feature, but the languauge is so robust, it easily integrates with other
    vendor's software (e.g. West Wind Web Connection). So, if MS doesn't take
    VFP there with thier stuff, it doesn't matter - it's already there. In fact,
    due to all the MS security problems of late, I imagine most of my clients
    would feel more comfortable NOT using an MS 'mandated' approach.

    "Robert Scoble" <rscoble@fawcette.com> wrote:
    >
    >Thanks too for the dialog. I was just trying to illuminate why
    >VFP is on a declining spiral (er, some would even say death
    >spiral). After all, if no one new buys (er, adopts, since
    >Microsoft is gonna give it to everyone) VFP then it effectively
    >is dead as a product and a market.
    >
    >Robert Scoble



  15. #15
    fa0425 Guest

    Re: Whats the deal with Fox?

    > Anybody starting out today - I WOULD NOT reccommend VFP. I agree with you
    > here. VFP is great if you know VFP. But I in good conscience, reccommend
    > somebody starting out today to pick up an learn VFP.


    So john, what is it, would you recommend vfp or not?

    Recommending or not vfp is something that varies from individual to
    individual. There are people who will mesh much better with the "instant
    gratification" atmosphere that shrouds vb, while there are others that will
    probably benefit more from vfp.

    IMO, vb is an end-user tool on steroids, hence it's extreme ease of use,
    while vfp would be at the next level in terms of complexity.

    I have been using dbase since 1985 and clipper since 1990. Then in 1994 or
    96 I was forced to use Access. I like it very much and I think I'm pretty
    proficient with the tool, but its shortcommings are, well, very obvious. For
    starters, even though I'm used to it already, I find it absurd to have to
    issue 3 lines of code to just access a table programmatically.

    Then, last year I started using vfp (for a project that's too big for
    access/vb and too small for sql server). I'm still learning, so the curve is
    obviously much harder to surmount than that of vb (I was proficient in
    access after about a month). Still, being on both sides of the fence at the
    same time, I think vfp is much better suited for what it was intended, which
    seems to be a MS secret: database management.

    Alex



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