Is anyone having...


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Thread: Is anyone having...

  1. #1
    Spiker Guest

    Is anyone having...


    ...any hangups about this CLR (common language runtime)? Is this an efficient
    technology? This seems to have a VM analogy but maybe not as cumbersome
    as a VM (I should have gone to PDC).

    I'm no fan of software layers, especially fat ones, like Java's VM. I was
    afraid MS was going to ruin VB now I'm afraid they are about to ruin C++.
    C# is a great idea but at what cost. If there any coders not intimidated
    by Java (i.e. needing an MS technology competing with Sun's Java) and able
    to comment altruistically on this it would be much appreciated.

    Concerned,
    Spiker

    P.S. When VS7 comes out I hope MS allows for a dual install. Where vb6/vc++6
    can be developed side by side with vb7/vc++7 for at least a transitional
    period. It seems to be a needed feature. I dont feel like playing musical
    computers.

  2. #2
    Robert Scoble Guest

    Re: Is anyone having...

    Well, it's still a little early to say what the performance will be like,
    but early reports on newsgroups are promising.

    Microsoft has already admitted to writing ASP+ in C# and my friends (and the
    other newsgroups) are saying that ASP+ rocks. So, if there is a performance
    hit, it must be a minimal one. Other folks are saying they are seeing about
    a 10% speed difference between well-written C+ code and well-written C#
    code, but it's way too early to really say that means anything. There's got
    to be tons of debug code running at this point (heck, it isn't even solid
    enough yet to release it as a general beta).

    From what my friends tell me, you can run VS.net on the same machine as VS6
    (and several attendees at the PDC have acknowledged they had seen this with
    their own eyes). Personally, I'd keep them separate because I've had bad
    experiences when I try to mix Microsoft technologies (especially a preview
    and a shipping technology) on the same machine, but who knows?

    The places I've worked have also not allowed any beta software to be loaded
    on production machines. I would say that's a wise policy to have for playing
    with the PDC version and/or any betas. Heck, it's wise to do not allow ANY
    software to be loaded on your production machines until it's been fully
    tested and you know ALL of the consequences.

    --
    Robert Scoble
    http://www.netmeeting-zone.com
    The NetMeeting Zone -- Microsoft NetMeeting MVP
    http://www.devx.com --The Premier Online Information Source for Programming
    Professionals

    "Spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote in message
    news:39748263$1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > ..any hangups about this CLR (common language runtime)? Is this an

    efficient
    > technology? This seems to have a VM analogy but maybe not as cumbersome
    > as a VM (I should have gone to PDC).
    >
    > I'm no fan of software layers, especially fat ones, like Java's VM. I was
    > afraid MS was going to ruin VB now I'm afraid they are about to ruin C++.
    > C# is a great idea but at what cost. If there any coders not intimidated


    > by Java (i.e. needing an MS technology competing with Sun's Java) and able
    > to comment altruistically on this it would be much appreciated.
    >
    > Concerned,
    > Spiker
    >
    > P.S. When VS7 comes out I hope MS allows for a dual install. Where

    vb6/vc++6
    > can be developed side by side with vb7/vc++7 for at least a transitional
    > period. It seems to be a needed feature. I dont feel like playing

    musical
    > computers.




  3. #3
    Steve Schofield Guest

    Re: Is anyone having...


    As the webmaster of a early adopter site. ASP+ is definately worth taking
    the risk on. Sorry to say but I disagree with the statement its not stable
    enough to provide a general public beta. I like microsoft's scope on this,
    when we release a decent beta things will mostly work. Good grief, most
    of the stuff on my site is already working like a champ! One thing though
    is the performance of system resources. But with all the debuggin code and
    not being totally optimized. Its definately a winner for me. After doing
    asp for 3+ years, this new generation is a winner!

    steve schofield
    steve@aspfree.com



    "Robert Scoble" <rscoble@fawcette.com> wrote:
    >Well, it's still a little early to say what the performance will be like,
    >but early reports on newsgroups are promising.
    >
    >Microsoft has already admitted to writing ASP+ in C# and my friends (and

    the
    >other newsgroups) are saying that ASP+ rocks. So, if there is a performance
    >hit, it must be a minimal one. Other folks are saying they are seeing about
    >a 10% speed difference between well-written C+ code and well-written C#
    >code, but it's way too early to really say that means anything. There's

    got
    >to be tons of debug code running at this point (heck, it isn't even solid
    >enough yet to release it as a general beta).
    >
    >From what my friends tell me, you can run VS.net on the same machine as

    VS6
    >(and several attendees at the PDC have acknowledged they had seen this with
    >their own eyes). Personally, I'd keep them separate because I've had bad
    >experiences when I try to mix Microsoft technologies (especially a preview
    >and a shipping technology) on the same machine, but who knows?
    >
    >The places I've worked have also not allowed any beta software to be loaded
    >on production machines. I would say that's a wise policy to have for playing
    >with the PDC version and/or any betas. Heck, it's wise to do not allow ANY
    >software to be loaded on your production machines until it's been fully
    >tested and you know ALL of the consequences.
    >
    >--
    >Robert Scoble
    >http://www.netmeeting-zone.com
    >The NetMeeting Zone -- Microsoft NetMeeting MVP
    >http://www.devx.com --The Premier Online Information Source for Programming
    >Professionals
    >
    >"Spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote in message
    >news:39748263$1@news.devx.com...
    >>
    >> ..any hangups about this CLR (common language runtime)? Is this an

    >efficient
    >> technology? This seems to have a VM analogy but maybe not as cumbersome
    >> as a VM (I should have gone to PDC).
    >>
    >> I'm no fan of software layers, especially fat ones, like Java's VM. I

    was
    >> afraid MS was going to ruin VB now I'm afraid they are about to ruin C++.
    >> C# is a great idea but at what cost. If there any coders not intimidated

    >
    >> by Java (i.e. needing an MS technology competing with Sun's Java) and

    able
    >> to comment altruistically on this it would be much appreciated.
    >>
    >> Concerned,
    >> Spiker
    >>
    >> P.S. When VS7 comes out I hope MS allows for a dual install. Where

    >vb6/vc++6
    >> can be developed side by side with vb7/vc++7 for at least a transitional
    >> period. It seems to be a needed feature. I dont feel like playing

    >musical
    >> computers.

    >
    >



  4. #4
    Robert Scoble Guest

    Re: Is anyone having...

    > As the webmaster of a early adopter site. ASP+ is definately worth taking
    > the risk on. Sorry to say but I disagree with the statement its not

    stable
    > enough to provide a general public beta. I like microsoft's scope on

    this,
    > when we release a decent beta things will mostly work. Good grief, most
    > of the stuff on my site is already working like a champ! One thing though
    > is the performance of system resources. But with all the debuggin code

    and
    > not being totally optimized. Its definately a winner for me. After doing
    > asp for 3+ years, this new generation is a winner!


    Yeah, I have gotten new information from my sources. Heck, they've only had
    it for less than a week, so it's taking some time.

    From what they are seeing, ASP+ is darn good and beta-quality. In fact, I'm
    hearing that http://search.microsoft.com is now running with ASP+ code (or
    will soon be).

    It's Visual Studio.net that isn't yet all that stable.

    So, who knows. Maybe they will release this stuff in stages with ASP+ or
    some kind of SDK coming first, then the full VS.net? I don't know, I'm just
    making guesses at this point.

    I would still say that it's a little early to use it on production servers
    unless you have a direct line to Microsoft when things go bad (and/or you
    have an excellent backup plan).

    Robert Scoble

    ###



  5. #5
    Chris Kinsman Guest

    Re: Is anyone having...

    Not a VM is my understanding. More of a class library approach ala Delphi.
    Understandable since the designer of Turbo Pascal and Delphi, Anders
    Hjelsberg, is behind the .Net class libraries...



    "Spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote in message
    news:39748263$1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > ..any hangups about this CLR (common language runtime)? Is this an

    efficient
    > technology? This seems to have a VM analogy but maybe not as cumbersome
    > as a VM (I should have gone to PDC).
    >
    > I'm no fan of software layers, especially fat ones, like Java's VM. I was
    > afraid MS was going to ruin VB now I'm afraid they are about to ruin C++.
    > C# is a great idea but at what cost. If there any coders not intimidated
    > by Java (i.e. needing an MS technology competing with Sun's Java) and able
    > to comment altruistically on this it would be much appreciated.
    >
    > Concerned,
    > Spiker
    >
    > P.S. When VS7 comes out I hope MS allows for a dual install. Where

    vb6/vc++6
    > can be developed side by side with vb7/vc++7 for at least a transitional
    > period. It seems to be a needed feature. I dont feel like playing

    musical
    > computers.




  6. #6
    Robert Scoble Guest

    Re: Is anyone having...

    Actually, I had the link wrong. http://beta.search.microsoft.com is running
    on ASP+ and using C# in the logic objects. It seems to be up and down this
    morning.

    --
    Robert Scoble
    http://www.netmeeting-zone.com
    The NetMeeting Zone -- Microsoft NetMeeting MVP
    http://www.devx.com --The Premier Online Information Source for Programming
    Professionals


    "Robert Scoble" <rscoble@fawcette.com> wrote in message
    news:3976a037$1@news.devx.com...
    > > As the webmaster of a early adopter site. ASP+ is definately worth

    taking
    > > the risk on. Sorry to say but I disagree with the statement its not

    > stable
    > > enough to provide a general public beta. I like microsoft's scope on

    > this,
    > > when we release a decent beta things will mostly work. Good grief, most
    > > of the stuff on my site is already working like a champ! One thing

    though
    > > is the performance of system resources. But with all the debuggin code

    > and
    > > not being totally optimized. Its definately a winner for me. After

    doing
    > > asp for 3+ years, this new generation is a winner!

    >
    > Yeah, I have gotten new information from my sources. Heck, they've only

    had
    > it for less than a week, so it's taking some time.
    >
    > From what they are seeing, ASP+ is darn good and beta-quality. In fact,

    I'm
    > hearing that http://search.microsoft.com is now running with ASP+ code (or
    > will soon be).
    >
    > It's Visual Studio.net that isn't yet all that stable.
    >
    > So, who knows. Maybe they will release this stuff in stages with ASP+ or
    > some kind of SDK coming first, then the full VS.net? I don't know, I'm

    just
    > making guesses at this point.
    >
    > I would still say that it's a little early to use it on production servers
    > unless you have a direct line to Microsoft when things go bad (and/or you
    > have an excellent backup plan).
    >
    > Robert Scoble
    >
    > ###
    >
    >




  7. #7
    Robert Scoble Guest

    Re: Is anyone having...

    Sorry made a mistake, the correct site is http://beta.search.microsoft.com.
    Below is a complete list of ".net" information resources.

    --Robert Scoble
    http://conferences.devx.com

    ###

    These are all the resources I know about so far for Microsoft's Visual
    Studio.net family of technologies (includes ASP+, VB.net, VS.net, VC++.net,
    C#, SOAP, Web Services, etc.).

    These include ALL the links I've seen bandied around so far, not just
    DevX/Fawcette ones.

    I can't say it's comprehensive (I get a new resource every hour or so) but
    this is a good starting point.

    Hope they are useful to you. Please feel free to send new resources to
    rscoble@fawcette.com and I'll add them to this list.

    NEWSGROUPS/DISCUSSION FORUMS:

    news://news.devx.com/csharp.general (Web page versions:
    http://news.devx.com/) (DevX's newsgroup for discussing C#).
    news://news.devx.com/vb.vb7 (Web page versions: http://news.devx.com/)
    (DevX's newsgroup for discussing Visual Basic.net and Visual Studio.net).
    news://news.devx.com/web.asp.plus (Web page versions: http://news.devx.com/)
    (DevX's newsgroup for discussing ASP+).
    http://codeguru.earthweb.com/bbs/wt/...t&Board=CSharp
    Code Guru's discussion forum for C#.
    http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/aspplus.asp 4GuysfromRolla's ASP+
    discussion forum.

    MAILING LISTS:

    http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspng.asp Curious about ASP+? Join this.
    (Good, Microsoft programmers are participating regularly)
    http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngbeta.asp Do you have the ASP+ beta and
    have questions? Join this. (Good, Microsoft programmers are participating
    regularly)
    http://discuss.develop.com/ Developmentor's DotNet mailing list (among
    others). (Good, Microsoft programmers are participating regularly)
    http://p2p.wrox.com/scripts/lyris.pl?enter=aspx Wrox's ASP+ mailing list.

    SAMPLES

    http://216.87.1.125/quickstart/ (Microsoft's ASP+ Quickstart page -- is
    running slow sometimes, keep trying).
    http://www.ibuyspy.com/ Vertigo and Microsoft's sample site with source
    code.
    http://beta.search.microsoft.com is running on ASP+ and using C# in the
    logic objects.
    http://www.sfdata.ne.jp/windev/vb-fr...719/29048.html Japanese
    rewrite of Microsoft code, it looks like.

    TRAINING/CONFERENCES

    http://www.vslive.com Independent conference that will tackle ".net" topics.
    Actually three conferences in one week in one huge hotel in Orlando. (VBITS,
    VCDC, SQL2TheMax) September 19-23, 2000. (Has an entire day on ".net"
    technologies -- all given by Microsoft developers). Has the best programmers
    and trainers from DevelopMentor, Wintellect, Vertigo, and Microsoft.
    http://www.butrain.com/windev/west/default.htm Independent conference that
    will tackle ".net" topics. Run by Boston University and DevelopMentor.
    http://www.aspworkshops.com/ Steven Walther's ASP+ training classes.
    http://www.wintellect.com Wintellect's ".net" training classes.
    http://www.develop.com Developmentor's training classes.
    http://www.vsconnections.com/ Conference for VS programmers.
    http://www.wroxconferences.com/Confe....asp?ConfID=10 Conference for
    ASP Web developers that will cover .net technologies.

    INDEPENDENT RESOURCES on all things ".net"

    http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/ts0008.asp
    (VBPJ's Special Coverage of Visual Studio.NET).

    http://www.vb-zone.com/vb7/ DevX.com and VB-ZONE's VB.net Portal (lots of
    links to other things covered partly below).

    http://www.devx.com/free/press/2000/071400.asp Pundits Ponder PDC
    Pronouncements. Audio and Video of several FTP/DevX pundits giving their
    thoughts on the PDC and Visual Studio.net.

    http://www.devx.com/free/press/2000/071200-1.asp .NET Revealed-Microsoft
    Raises the Curtain on Web Applications Services Framework by Stuart L.
    Johnson of XML Magazine from PDC.

    http://www.devx.com/free/hotlinks/2000/ednote071900.asp Answers to Your Top
    5 Visual Studio.NET Questions by Jeff Hadfield.

    http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/tspn0008/t
    spn0008.asp Visual Studio 7 Embraces the Web. Publisher's Note for VBPJ by
    Jeff Hadfield.

    http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/tsov0008/t
    sov0008.asp Inside Visual Studio 7. True to Microsoft's word, Visual Studio
    7.0 is all about enabling you to program the Internet. From August VBPJ.

    http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/bn0008-1.a
    sp First Look at Visual Studio 7.0. Learn what's coming in the next version
    of Visual Studio and how it affects you as a C++ developer (includes
    introducing C#) by Brian Noyes.

    http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/tsvc0008/t
    svc0008.asp A Sharper Look for Visual C++. C# gives you C++'s OO power, but
    adds garbage collection, plus eliminates pointers and other features that
    lead most often to trouble. From August VBPJ.

    http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/tsso0008/t
    sso0008.asp Program the Web With SOAP.
    Find out how Microsoft plans to revolutionize the Web with SOAP and ROPE. by
    Ken Rabold, from August VBPJ.

    http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/tsas0008/t
    sas0008.asp Develop Web Applications With ATL Server. Visual Studio's next
    version allows you to build high-performance Web applications with ATL. By
    Richard Grimes from August VCDJ.

    http://www.vbpj.com/upload/free/feat...007/pn0007.asp
    VB7: More IDE Improvements. July 2000 VBPJ Publisher's Note.

    http://www.devx.com/free/press/2000/030100.asp Visual Basic 7.0's New
    Features: A Glossary. by Rockford Lhotka.

    http://www.devx.com/free/newsletters/vb/ednote0215.asp It's No Joke: VB7 to
    Feature Inheritance. Editor's Note by Patrick Meader for VBZONE.

    http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/pn0008.asp
    Get Ready for Web Forms. Publisher's Note from August VBPJ. by Jeff
    Hadfield.

    http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/webtech/071900-1.shtml ASP+ FAQ.
    Commonly-Asked ASP questions answered.

    http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/webtech/071500-1.shtml ASP+: An Introduction
    and My Views on the Matter.

    http://www.asp101.com/aspplus/index.asp An Overview of ASP+.

    http://www.aspfree.com/asp+/whatisaspplus.aspx. What is ASP+?

    http://www.aspng.com/aspng/overview.asp ASP+ Overview from Charles Carroll.

    http://www.asptoday.com/articles/20000711.htm Introducing ASP+. By Alex
    Homer.

    http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/webtech/071700-1.shtml Creating ASP+ Pages
    with your Favorite Language.

    http://www.aspng.com/quickstart/aspplus/default.htm ASP+ Quickstart Tutorial
    from Microsoft.

    http://www.asptoday.com/articles/20000712.htm How is ASP+ different from ASP
    by Alex Homer.

    http://www.asptoday.com/articles/20000713.htm A summary of all the new
    features in ASP+ by Alex Homer.

    http://www.aspng.com/quickstart/aspplus/default.htm Mirror of Microsoft's
    samples and documentation.

    http://www.aspfree.com/quickstart/aspplus/default.htm
    (they have placed it an a frameset that guarantees their tab stays on top of
    the documentation. Very rude....)

    http://www.aspfree.com/asp+/ ASP+ articles on ASPFree.com. (ASP+ Homepage).

    http://www.wrox.com/beta/ Wrox's ASP+ preview site and support page.

    http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase...ler_fusion.asp Info about how
    ..DLL's change under Microsoft's .NET.

    http://www.devx.com/free/press/2000/...port062600.asp All Things Being
    Equal...XML bridges the gulf between Java and the Microsoft platform. But
    remember, that bridge goes both ways. by Sean Gallagher, Editorial Director,
    FTP Enterprise Group

    http://www.devx.com/free/press/2000/...ort2062600.asp Will Microsoft hit
    the right note with C#? Editorial by Jeff Hadfield Publisher, VBPJ

    http://www.eiffel.com/announcements/2000/pdc/ Information on using the
    Eiffel programming language with the .net technologies.

    MICROSOFT RESOURCES on all things ".net"

    http://www.microsoft.com/net/default.asp Microsoft's ".net" Home Page.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/NET/default.asp MSDN's ".net" Home Page.
    (different than Microsoft's .net page). Much better for developers. Includes
    a PDC sampler.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/voices/scripting07142000.asp Microsoft's
    JScript.net page.

    http://www.msdn.microsoft.com/vstudi...en/default.asp Microsoft's Next
    Generation Visual Studio Page (links to lots of Visual Studio.net stuff).

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ne...atldefault.asp
    Microsoft's page on using ATL Server.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ne...sharpintro.asp
    Microsoft's C# Introduction and Overview.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ne...rmsdefault.asp
    Microsoft's Winforms site.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ne...webdefault.asp
    Microsoft's Web Services site.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ne...angdefault.asp Detail
    from Microsoft on language changes made to VC++, VB, and others.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/general/toolkit_intro.asp Web Services and
    the SOAP Toolkit for Visual Studio 6.0. Microsoft's site for downloading Web
    Services for Visual Studio 6.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/is...ebPlatform.asp
    The Programmable Web: Web Services Provides Building Blocks for the
    Microsoft .NET Framework. MSDN Magazine August report by Mary Kirtland.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/is...SNET/VSNET.asp Visual Studio
    ..NET: Build Web Applications Faster and Easier Using Web Services and XML.
    MSDN Magazine August report by Dave Mendlen.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/is...arp/csharp.asp Sharp New
    Language: C# Offers the Power of C++ and Simplicity of Visual Basic. MSDN
    Magazine August Report by Joshua Trupin.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/is...us/ASPPlus.asp Active
    Server Pages+: ASP+ Improves Web App Deployment, Scalability, Security, and
    Reliability. MSDN Magazine August Report by Dave Sussman.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...hart/PDC_asppl
    us.htm Using the ASP+ List-Bound Controls
    Nikhil Kothari, Microsoft Corporation

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...hart/PDC_useri
    nput.htm User Input Validation in ASP+
    Anthony Moore, Microsoft Corporation

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ne...gy/adoplus.asp Microsoft's
    page on the new ADO+. (Database Access Technology).

    http://commnet.pdc.mscorpevents.com/ Microsoft's PDC sessions and slides.

    ###




  8. #8
    Spiker Guest

    Re: Is anyone having...


    Robert,
    All those links (and comments) are really appreciated.
    Thanks,
    Spiker



  9. #9
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: Is anyone having...

    > All those links (and comments) are really appreciated.

    ....except by those who have already downloaded the same list from the
    csharp.general, vb.vb7 and web.asp.plus (twice!) newsgroups. Robert: Please
    do *not* post the same information multiple times! (If it seems like I'm
    being hard on him, folks, it's because I already asked him privately not to
    do this last night.) Post it once and, if you wish, refer readers in other
    groups to that post. Or crosspost: post a single message to up to four
    groups. Or put up a Web page containing your links, and post the URL in the
    newsgroups. Posting the same (or 90% similar) messages separately to
    multiple groups is inconsiderate of those with limited time and/or
    bandwidth, and is against DevX rules.
    ---
    Phil Weber



  10. #10
    Spiker Guest

    Re: Is anyone having...


    Phil,
    I appreciate your point but the only valid suggestion was the cross-posting
    with links to a webpage. I personally don't want to go searching for a post
    with a bunch of links. Some of us don't read all the groups all the time
    because we have limited time and bandwidth

    Spiker
    P.S. Be glad people are posting there are so many sites where discussion
    thread functionality is just a joke.
    P.P.S. Robert follow the rules!

    "Phil Weber" <pweber@teleport.com> wrote:
    > > All those links (and comments) are really appreciated.

    >
    >....except by those who have already downloaded the same list from the
    >csharp.general, vb.vb7 and web.asp.plus (twice!) newsgroups. Robert: Please
    >do *not* post the same information multiple times! (If it seems like I'm
    >being hard on him, folks, it's because I already asked him privately not

    to
    >do this last night.) Post it once and, if you wish, refer readers in other
    >groups to that post. Or crosspost: post a single message to up to four
    >groups. Or put up a Web page containing your links, and post the URL in

    the
    >newsgroups. Posting the same (or 90% similar) messages separately to
    >multiple groups is inconsiderate of those with limited time and/or
    >bandwidth, and is against DevX rules.
    >---
    >Phil Weber
    >
    >



  11. #11
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: Is anyone having...

    > I appreciate your point but the only valid suggestion was
    > the cross-posting with links to a Web page. I personally
    > don't want to go searching for a post...


    Spiker: My other suggestions would not require you to "go searching" either.
    If Robert crossposted his messages, they would appear in each group to which
    he crossposts, just as if he had posted a separate message to each group
    (a.k.a. multi-posting). The advantage of crossposting over multi-posting is
    that when you use a newsreader to read a crossposted message in one group,
    it is marked as read in all of the other groups to which it is posted, so
    you don't have to download it (or even see it) more than once. (This
    advantage does not apply to users of our Web interface, which I see you
    are.)

    Alternatively, I suggested that he post his message to one group, then refer
    users in other groups to that message. Something like this:

    "Here is a list of all the .NET links I've found so far:
    http://news.devx.com/cgi-bin/dnewswe...b.asp.plus&ite
    m=14 "

    How much searching did you have to do to find the original post?

    The point of all three of my suggestions was to post only *one* copy of the
    information somewhere, and then make it easy for users in various groups to
    find it.
    ---
    Phil Weber



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