Is anyone having...

[Spiker]

...any hangups about this CLR (common language runtime)? Is this an efficient
technology? This seems to have a VM analogy but maybe not as cumbersome
as a VM (I should have gone to PDC).

I'm no fan of software layers, especially fat ones, like Java's VM. I was
afraid MS was going to ruin VB now I'm afraid they are about to ruin C++.
C# is a great idea but at what cost. If there any coders not intimidated
by Java (i.e. needing an MS technology competing with Sun's Java) and able
to comment altruistically on this it would be much appreciated.

Concerned,
Spiker

P.S. When VS7 comes out I hope MS allows for a dual install. Where vb6/vc++6
can be developed side by side with vb7/vc++7 for at least a transitional
period. It seems to be a needed feature. I dont feel like playing musical
computers.

[Robert Scoble]

Well, it's still a little early to say what the performance will be like,
but early reports on newsgroups are promising.

Microsoft has already admitted to writing ASP+ in C# and my friends (and the
other newsgroups) are saying that ASP+ rocks. So, if there is a performance
hit, it must be a minimal one. Other folks are saying they are seeing about
a 10% speed difference between well-written C+ code and well-written C#
code, but it's way too early to really say that means anything. There's got
to be tons of debug code running at this point (heck, it isn't even solid
enough yet to release it as a general beta).

From what my friends tell me, you can run VS.net on the same machine as VS6
(and several attendees at the PDC have acknowledged they had seen this with
their own eyes). Personally, I'd keep them separate because I've had bad
experiences when I try to mix Microsoft technologies (especially a preview
and a shipping technology) on the same machine, but who knows?

The places I've worked have also not allowed any beta software to be loaded
on production machines. I would say that's a wise policy to have for playing
with the PDC version and/or any betas. Heck, it's wise to do not allow ANY
software to be loaded on your production machines until it's been fully
tested and you know ALL of the consequences.

--
Robert Scoble
http://www.netmeeting-zone.com
The NetMeeting Zone -- Microsoft NetMeeting MVP
http://www.devx.com --The Premier Online Information Source for Programming
Professionals

"Spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote in message
news:39748263$1@news.devx.com...
>
> ..any hangups about this CLR (common language runtime)? Is this an
efficient
> technology? This seems to have a VM analogy but maybe not as cumbersome
> as a VM (I should have gone to PDC).
>
> I'm no fan of software layers, especially fat ones, like Java's VM. I was
> afraid MS was going to ruin VB now I'm afraid they are about to ruin C++.
> C# is a great idea but at what cost. If there any coders not intimidated

> by Java (i.e. needing an MS technology competing with Sun's Java) and able
> to comment altruistically on this it would be much appreciated.
>
> Concerned,
> Spiker
>
> P.S. When VS7 comes out I hope MS allows for a dual install. Where
vb6/vc++6
> can be developed side by side with vb7/vc++7 for at least a transitional
> period. It seems to be a needed feature. I dont feel like playing
musical
> computers.

[Steve Schofield]

As the webmaster of a early adopter site. ASP+ is definately worth taking
the risk on. Sorry to say but I disagree with the statement its not stable
enough to provide a general public beta. I like microsoft's scope on this,
when we release a decent beta things will mostly work. Good grief, most
of the stuff on my site is already working like a champ! One thing though
is the performance of system resources. But with all the debuggin code and
not being totally optimized. Its definately a winner for me. After doing
asp for 3+ years, this new generation is a winner!

steve schofield
steve@aspfree.com



"Robert Scoble" <rscoble@fawcette.com> wrote:
>Well, it's still a little early to say what the performance will be like,
>but early reports on newsgroups are promising.
>
>Microsoft has already admitted to writing ASP+ in C# and my friends (and
the
>other newsgroups) are saying that ASP+ rocks. So, if there is a performance
>hit, it must be a minimal one. Other folks are saying they are seeing about
>a 10% speed difference between well-written C+ code and well-written C#
>code, but it's way too early to really say that means anything. There's
got
>to be tons of debug code running at this point (heck, it isn't even solid
>enough yet to release it as a general beta).
>
>From what my friends tell me, you can run VS.net on the same machine as
VS6
>(and several attendees at the PDC have acknowledged they had seen this with
>their own eyes). Personally, I'd keep them separate because I've had bad
>experiences when I try to mix Microsoft technologies (especially a preview
>and a shipping technology) on the same machine, but who knows?
>
>The places I've worked have also not allowed any beta software to be loaded
>on production machines. I would say that's a wise policy to have for playing
>with the PDC version and/or any betas. Heck, it's wise to do not allow ANY
>software to be loaded on your production machines until it's been fully
>tested and you know ALL of the consequences.
>
>--
>Robert Scoble
>http://www.netmeeting-zone.com
>The NetMeeting Zone -- Microsoft NetMeeting MVP
>http://www.devx.com --The Premier Online Information Source for Programming
>Professionals
>
>"Spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote in message
>news:39748263$1@news.devx.com...
>>
>> ..any hangups about this CLR (common language runtime)? Is this an
>efficient
>> technology? This seems to have a VM analogy but maybe not as cumbersome
>> as a VM (I should have gone to PDC).
>>
>> I'm no fan of software layers, especially fat ones, like Java's VM. I
was
>> afraid MS was going to ruin VB now I'm afraid they are about to ruin C++.
>> C# is a great idea but at what cost. If there any coders not intimidated
>
>> by Java (i.e. needing an MS technology competing with Sun's Java) and
able
>> to comment altruistically on this it would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Concerned,
>> Spiker
>>
>> P.S. When VS7 comes out I hope MS allows for a dual install. Where
>vb6/vc++6
>> can be developed side by side with vb7/vc++7 for at least a transitional
>> period. It seems to be a needed feature. I dont feel like playing
>musical
>> computers.
>
>

[Robert Scoble]

> As the webmaster of a early adopter site. ASP+ is definately worth taking
> the risk on. Sorry to say but I disagree with the statement its not
stable
> enough to provide a general public beta. I like microsoft's scope on
this,
> when we release a decent beta things will mostly work. Good grief, most
> of the stuff on my site is already working like a champ! One thing though
> is the performance of system resources. But with all the debuggin code
and
> not being totally optimized. Its definately a winner for me. After doing
> asp for 3+ years, this new generation is a winner!

Yeah, I have gotten new information from my sources. Heck, they've only had
it for less than a week, so it's taking some time.

From what they are seeing, ASP+ is darn good and beta-quality. In fact, I'm
hearing that http://search.microsoft.com is now running with ASP+ code (or
will soon be).

It's Visual Studio.net that isn't yet all that stable.

So, who knows. Maybe they will release this stuff in stages with ASP+ or
some kind of SDK coming first, then the full VS.net? I don't know, I'm just
making guesses at this point.

I would still say that it's a little early to use it on production servers
unless you have a direct line to Microsoft when things go bad (and/or you
have an excellent backup plan).

Robert Scoble

###

[Chris Kinsman]

Not a VM is my understanding. More of a class library approach ala Delphi.
Understandable since the designer of Turbo Pascal and Delphi, Anders
Hjelsberg, is behind the .Net class libraries...



"Spiker" <noneed2@email.com> wrote in message
news:39748263$1@news.devx.com...
>
> ..any hangups about this CLR (common language runtime)? Is this an
efficient
> technology? This seems to have a VM analogy but maybe not as cumbersome
> as a VM (I should have gone to PDC).
>
> I'm no fan of software layers, especially fat ones, like Java's VM. I was
> afraid MS was going to ruin VB now I'm afraid they are about to ruin C++.
> C# is a great idea but at what cost. If there any coders not intimidated
> by Java (i.e. needing an MS technology competing with Sun's Java) and able
> to comment altruistically on this it would be much appreciated.
>
> Concerned,
> Spiker
>
> P.S. When VS7 comes out I hope MS allows for a dual install. Where
vb6/vc++6
> can be developed side by side with vb7/vc++7 for at least a transitional
> period. It seems to be a needed feature. I dont feel like playing
musical
> computers.

[Robert Scoble]

Actually, I had the link wrong. http://beta.search.microsoft.com is running
on ASP+ and using C# in the logic objects. It seems to be up and down this
morning.

--
Robert Scoble
http://www.netmeeting-zone.com
The NetMeeting Zone -- Microsoft NetMeeting MVP
http://www.devx.com --The Premier Online Information Source for Programming
Professionals


"Robert Scoble" <rscoble@fawcette.com> wrote in message
news:3976a037$1@news.devx.com...
> > As the webmaster of a early adopter site. ASP+ is definately worth
taking
> > the risk on. Sorry to say but I disagree with the statement its not
> stable
> > enough to provide a general public beta. I like microsoft's scope on
> this,
> > when we release a decent beta things will mostly work. Good grief, most
> > of the stuff on my site is already working like a champ! One thing
though
> > is the performance of system resources. But with all the debuggin code
> and
> > not being totally optimized. Its definately a winner for me. After
doing
> > asp for 3+ years, this new generation is a winner!
>
> Yeah, I have gotten new information from my sources. Heck, they've only
had
> it for less than a week, so it's taking some time.
>
> From what they are seeing, ASP+ is darn good and beta-quality. In fact,
I'm
> hearing that http://search.microsoft.com is now running with ASP+ code (or
> will soon be).
>
> It's Visual Studio.net that isn't yet all that stable.
>
> So, who knows. Maybe they will release this stuff in stages with ASP+ or
> some kind of SDK coming first, then the full VS.net? I don't know, I'm
just
> making guesses at this point.
>
> I would still say that it's a little early to use it on production servers
> unless you have a direct line to Microsoft when things go bad (and/or you
> have an excellent backup plan).
>
> Robert Scoble
>
> ###
>
>

[Robert Scoble]

Sorry made a mistake, the correct site is http://beta.search.microsoft.com.
Below is a complete list of ".net" information resources.

--Robert Scoble
http://conferences.devx.com

###

These are all the resources I know about so far for Microsoft's Visual
Studio.net family of technologies (includes ASP+, VB.net, VS.net, VC++.net,
C#, SOAP, Web Services, etc.).

These include ALL the links I've seen bandied around so far, not just
DevX/Fawcette ones.

I can't say it's comprehensive (I get a new resource every hour or so) but
this is a good starting point.

Hope they are useful to you. Please feel free to send new resources to
rscoble@fawcette.com and I'll add them to this list.

NEWSGROUPS/DISCUSSION FORUMS:

news://news.devx.com/csharp.general (Web page versions:
http://news.devx.com/) (DevX's newsgroup for discussing C#).
news://news.devx.com/vb.vb7 (Web page versions: http://news.devx.com/)
(DevX's newsgroup for discussing Visual Basic.net and Visual Studio.net).
news://news.devx.com/web.asp.plus (Web page versions: http://news.devx.com/)
(DevX's newsgroup for discussing ASP+).
http://codeguru.earthweb.com/bbs/wt/...t&Board=CSharp
Code Guru's discussion forum for C#.
http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/aspplus.asp 4GuysfromRolla's ASP+
discussion forum.

MAILING LISTS:

http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspng.asp Curious about ASP+? Join this.
(Good, Microsoft programmers are participating regularly)
http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngbeta.asp Do you have the ASP+ beta and
have questions? Join this. (Good, Microsoft programmers are participating
regularly)
http://discuss.develop.com/ Developmentor's DotNet mailing list (among
others). (Good, Microsoft programmers are participating regularly)
http://p2p.wrox.com/scripts/lyris.pl?enter=aspx Wrox's ASP+ mailing list.

SAMPLES

http://216.87.1.125/quickstart/ (Microsoft's ASP+ Quickstart page -- is
running slow sometimes, keep trying).
http://www.ibuyspy.com/ Vertigo and Microsoft's sample site with source
code.
http://beta.search.microsoft.com is running on ASP+ and using C# in the
logic objects.
http://www.sfdata.ne.jp/windev/vb-fr...719/29048.html Japanese
rewrite of Microsoft code, it looks like.

TRAINING/CONFERENCES

http://www.vslive.com Independent conference that will tackle ".net" topics.
Actually three conferences in one week in one huge hotel in Orlando. (VBITS,
VCDC, SQL2TheMax) September 19-23, 2000. (Has an entire day on ".net"
technologies -- all given by Microsoft developers). Has the best programmers
and trainers from DevelopMentor, Wintellect, Vertigo, and Microsoft.
http://www.butrain.com/windev/west/default.htm Independent conference that
will tackle ".net" topics. Run by Boston University and DevelopMentor.
http://www.aspworkshops.com/ Steven Walther's ASP+ training classes.
http://www.wintellect.com Wintellect's ".net" training classes.
http://www.develop.com Developmentor's training classes.
http://www.vsconnections.com/ Conference for VS programmers.
http://www.wroxconferences.com/Confe....asp?ConfID=10 Conference for
ASP Web developers that will cover .net technologies.

INDEPENDENT RESOURCES on all things ".net"

http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/ts0008.asp
(VBPJ's Special Coverage of Visual Studio.NET).

http://www.vb-zone.com/vb7/ DevX.com and VB-ZONE's VB.net Portal (lots of
links to other things covered partly below).

http://www.devx.com/free/press/2000/071400.asp Pundits Ponder PDC
Pronouncements. Audio and Video of several FTP/DevX pundits giving their
thoughts on the PDC and Visual Studio.net.

http://www.devx.com/free/press/2000/071200-1.asp .NET Revealed-Microsoft
Raises the Curtain on Web Applications Services Framework by Stuart L.
Johnson of XML Magazine from PDC.

http://www.devx.com/free/hotlinks/2000/ednote071900.asp Answers to Your Top
5 Visual Studio.NET Questions by Jeff Hadfield.

http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/tspn0008/t
spn0008.asp Visual Studio 7 Embraces the Web. Publisher's Note for VBPJ by
Jeff Hadfield.

http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/tsov0008/t
sov0008.asp Inside Visual Studio 7. True to Microsoft's word, Visual Studio
7.0 is all about enabling you to program the Internet. From August VBPJ.

http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/bn0008-1.a
sp First Look at Visual Studio 7.0. Learn what's coming in the next version
of Visual Studio and how it affects you as a C++ developer (includes
introducing C#) by Brian Noyes.

http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/tsvc0008/t
svc0008.asp A Sharper Look for Visual C++. C# gives you C++'s OO power, but
adds garbage collection, plus eliminates pointers and other features that
lead most often to trouble. From August VBPJ.

http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/tsso0008/t
sso0008.asp Program the Web With SOAP.
Find out how Microsoft plans to revolutionize the Web with SOAP and ROPE. by
Ken Rabold, from August VBPJ.

http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/tsas0008/t
sas0008.asp Develop Web Applications With ATL Server. Visual Studio's next
version allows you to build high-performance Web applications with ATL. By
Richard Grimes from August VCDJ.

http://www.vbpj.com/upload/free/feat...007/pn0007.asp
VB7: More IDE Improvements. July 2000 VBPJ Publisher's Note.

http://www.devx.com/free/press/2000/030100.asp Visual Basic 7.0's New
Features: A Glossary. by Rockford Lhotka.

http://www.devx.com/free/newsletters/vb/ednote0215.asp It's No Joke: VB7 to
Feature Inheritance. Editor's Note by Patrick Meader for VBZONE.

http://www.devx.com/upload/free/feat...008/pn0008.asp
Get Ready for Web Forms. Publisher's Note from August VBPJ. by Jeff
Hadfield.

http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/webtech/071900-1.shtml ASP+ FAQ.
Commonly-Asked ASP questions answered.

http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/webtech/071500-1.shtml ASP+: An Introduction
and My Views on the Matter.

http://www.asp101.com/aspplus/index.asp An Overview of ASP+.

http://www.aspfree.com/asp+/whatisaspplus.aspx. What is ASP+?

http://www.aspng.com/aspng/overview.asp ASP+ Overview from Charles Carroll.

http://www.asptoday.com/articles/20000711.htm Introducing ASP+. By Alex
Homer.

http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/webtech/071700-1.shtml Creating ASP+ Pages
with your Favorite Language.

http://www.aspng.com/quickstart/aspplus/default.htm ASP+ Quickstart Tutorial
from Microsoft.

http://www.asptoday.com/articles/20000712.htm How is ASP+ different from ASP
by Alex Homer.

http://www.asptoday.com/articles/20000713.htm A summary of all the new
features in ASP+ by Alex Homer.

http://www.aspng.com/quickstart/aspplus/default.htm Mirror of Microsoft's
samples and documentation.

http://www.aspfree.com/quickstart/aspplus/default.htm
(they have placed it an a frameset that guarantees their tab stays on top of
the documentation. Very rude....)

http://www.aspfree.com/asp+/ ASP+ articles on ASPFree.com. (ASP+ Homepage).

http://www.wrox.com/beta/ Wrox's ASP+ preview site and support page.

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase...ler_fusion.asp Info about how
..DLL's change under Microsoft's .NET.

http://www.devx.com/free/press/2000/...port062600.asp All Things Being
Equal...XML bridges the gulf between Java and the Microsoft platform. But
remember, that bridge goes both ways. by Sean Gallagher, Editorial Director,
FTP Enterprise Group

http://www.devx.com/free/press/2000/...ort2062600.asp Will Microsoft hit
the right note with C#? Editorial by Jeff Hadfield Publisher, VBPJ

http://www.eiffel.com/announcements/2000/pdc/ Information on using the
Eiffel programming language with the .net technologies.

MICROSOFT RESOURCES on all things ".net"

http://www.microsoft.com/net/default.asp Microsoft's ".net" Home Page.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/NET/default.asp MSDN's ".net" Home Page.
(different than Microsoft's .net page). Much better for developers. Includes
a PDC sampler.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/voices/scripting07142000.asp Microsoft's
JScript.net page.

http://www.msdn.microsoft.com/vstudi...en/default.asp Microsoft's Next
Generation Visual Studio Page (links to lots of Visual Studio.net stuff).

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ne...atldefault.asp
Microsoft's page on using ATL Server.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ne...sharpintro.asp
Microsoft's C# Introduction and Overview.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ne...rmsdefault.asp
Microsoft's Winforms site.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ne...webdefault.asp
Microsoft's Web Services site.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ne...angdefault.asp Detail
from Microsoft on language changes made to VC++, VB, and others.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/general/toolkit_intro.asp Web Services and
the SOAP Toolkit for Visual Studio 6.0. Microsoft's site for downloading Web
Services for Visual Studio 6.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/is...ebPlatform.asp
The Programmable Web: Web Services Provides Building Blocks for the
Microsoft .NET Framework. MSDN Magazine August report by Mary Kirtland.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/is...SNET/VSNET.asp Visual Studio
..NET: Build Web Applications Faster and Easier Using Web Services and XML.
MSDN Magazine August report by Dave Mendlen.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/is...arp/csharp.asp Sharp New
Language: C# Offers the Power of C++ and Simplicity of Visual Basic. MSDN
Magazine August Report by Joshua Trupin.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/is...us/ASPPlus.asp Active
Server Pages+: ASP+ Improves Web App Deployment, Scalability, Security, and
Reliability. MSDN Magazine August Report by Dave Sussman.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...hart/PDC_asppl
us.htm Using the ASP+ List-Bound Controls
Nikhil Kothari, Microsoft Corporation

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...hart/PDC_useri
nput.htm User Input Validation in ASP+
Anthony Moore, Microsoft Corporation

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ne...gy/adoplus.asp Microsoft's
page on the new ADO+. (Database Access Technology).

http://commnet.pdc.mscorpevents.com/ Microsoft's PDC sessions and slides.

###

[Spiker]

Robert,
All those links (and comments) are really appreciated.
Thanks,
Spiker

[Phil Weber]

> All those links (and comments) are really appreciated.

....except by those who have already downloaded the same list from the
csharp.general, vb.vb7 and web.asp.plus (twice!) newsgroups. Robert: Please
do *not* post the same information multiple times! (If it seems like I'm
being hard on him, folks, it's because I already asked him privately not to
do this last night.) Post it once and, if you wish, refer readers in other
groups to that post. Or crosspost: post a single message to up to four
groups. Or put up a Web page containing your links, and post the URL in the
newsgroups. Posting the same (or 90% similar) messages separately to
multiple groups is inconsiderate of those with limited time and/or
bandwidth, and is against DevX rules.
---
Phil Weber

[Spiker]

Phil,
I appreciate your point but the only valid suggestion was the cross-posting
with links to a webpage. I personally don't want to go searching for a post
with a bunch of links. Some of us don't read all the groups all the time
because we have limited time and bandwidth

Spiker
P.S. Be glad people are posting there are so many sites where discussion
thread functionality is just a joke.
P.P.S. Robert follow the rules!

"Phil Weber" <pweber@teleport.com> wrote:
> > All those links (and comments) are really appreciated.
>
>....except by those who have already downloaded the same list from the
>csharp.general, vb.vb7 and web.asp.plus (twice!) newsgroups. Robert: Please
>do *not* post the same information multiple times! (If it seems like I'm
>being hard on him, folks, it's because I already asked him privately not
to
>do this last night.) Post it once and, if you wish, refer readers in other
>groups to that post. Or crosspost: post a single message to up to four
>groups. Or put up a Web page containing your links, and post the URL in
the
>newsgroups. Posting the same (or 90% similar) messages separately to
>multiple groups is inconsiderate of those with limited time and/or
>bandwidth, and is against DevX rules.
>---
>Phil Weber
>
>

[Phil Weber]

> I appreciate your point but the only valid suggestion was
> the cross-posting with links to a Web page. I personally
> don't want to go searching for a post...

Spiker: My other suggestions would not require you to "go searching" either.
If Robert crossposted his messages, they would appear in each group to which
he crossposts, just as if he had posted a separate message to each group
(a.k.a. multi-posting). The advantage of crossposting over multi-posting is
that when you use a newsreader to read a crossposted message in one group,
it is marked as read in all of the other groups to which it is posted, so
you don't have to download it (or even see it) more than once. (This
advantage does not apply to users of our Web interface, which I see you
are.)

Alternatively, I suggested that he post his message to one group, then refer
users in other groups to that message. Something like this:

"Here is a list of all the .NET links I've found so far:
http://news.devx.com/cgi-bin/dnewswe...b.asp.plus&ite
m=14 "

How much searching did you have to do to find the original post?

The point of all three of my suggestions was to post only *one* copy of the
information somewhere, and then make it easy for users in various groups to
find it.
---
Phil Weber