.NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?


DevX Home    Today's Headlines   Articles Archive   Tip Bank   Forums   

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 18

Thread: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?

  1. #1
    Glen Kunene Guest

    .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?

    Which platform would you entrust your enterprise apps to, Java or .NET? Why?
    What features would be on your enterprise security wish list?

    http://www.enterprise-zone.com/artic...a/GK0202-1.asp

    Let us know.

    Glen Kunene
    Senior Editor
    DevX.com



  2. #2
    malcolm davis Guest

    Re: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?


    Hmmm, Letís see
    ∑ .NET has just been released, and has no history,
    ∑ For the entire month of February, Microsoft development
    staff conducted code review with an emphasis on security holes,
    ∑ Microsoft has a history of security related problems
    with its software (just look at itís latest XP OS)
    ∑ Security is such an issue with Microsoft that Mr. Gates
    had to make a marketing focus item about the problem.
    ∑ .NET is a big bang vs. Java incremental approach to security.
    Java incrementally made changes with every release to the model.

    Need I say moreÖ


    "Glen Kunene" <gkunene@devx.com> wrote:
    > Which platform would you entrust your enterprise
    > apps to, Java or .NET? Why?
    > What features would be on your enterprise security wish list?
    >
    >http://www.enterprise-zone.com/artic...a/GK0202-1.asp
    >
    >Let us know.
    >
    >Glen Kunene
    >Senior Editor
    >DevX.com
    >
    >



  3. #3
    Joe \Nuke Me Xemu\ Foster Guest

    Re: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?

    "malcolm davis" <malcolm_g_davis@hotmail.com> wrote in message <news:3c7daa75$1@10.1.10.29>...

    >
    > Hmmm, Letís see
    > ∑ .NET has just been released, and has no history,
    > ∑ For the entire month of February, Microsoft development
    > staff conducted code review with an emphasis on security holes,


    It could have been worse, you know... They could have skipped all
    that stuff and just shipped it!

    --
    Joe Foster <mailto:jlfoster%40znet.com> Sign the Check! <http://www.xenu.net/>
    WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
    because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!



  4. #4
    MarkN Guest

    Re: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?


    "Joe \"Nuke Me Xemu\" Foster" <joe@bftsi0.UUCP> wrote:
    >"malcolm davis" <malcolm_g_davis@hotmail.com> wrote in message <news:3c7daa75$1@10.1.10.29>...
    >
    >>
    >> Hmmm, Letís see
    >> ∑ .NET has just been released, and has no history,
    >> ∑ For the entire month of February, Microsoft development
    >> staff conducted code review with an emphasis on security holes,

    >
    >It could have been worse, you know... They could have skipped all
    >that stuff and just shipped it!


    They tried that already.


    >
    >--
    >Joe Foster <mailto:jlfoster%40znet.com> Sign the Check! <http://www.xenu.net/>
    >WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming

    to
    >because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away,

    ha ha!
    >
    >



  5. #5
    Deniz Copur Guest

    Re: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?


    "Glen Kunene" <gkunene@devx.com> wrote:
    >Which platform would you entrust your enterprise apps to, Java or .NET?

    Why?
    >What features would be on your enterprise security wish list?
    >
    >http://www.enterprise-zone.com/artic...a/GK0202-1.asp
    >
    >Let us know.
    >
    >Glen Kunene
    >Senior Editor
    >DevX.com
    >
    >


    I think this comparison is not very fruitful, because of the following reasons:

    1. You cannot compare Java and .Net. You can compare J2EE and .NET.

    2. "Java's protection domain mechanism doesn't look as strong as what Microsoft
    is offering." I mean, I don't care how does it look. I want to see the results
    and reports of the tests performed on both. We are scientific people, right?

    3. This comparison does compare bareback Sun J2EE release. It does not consider
    thousands of frameworks and packages written on top of it. For example, it
    talks about Java's new logging service. Yes, it is still immature, but there
    is a wonderful Log4j from Apache, which is nearly defacto standard being
    used in hundreds of projects. Why these research companies do not understand
    Java is not only Sun? How many logging frameworks they tested related with
    Java before preparing this report? If they did not, why? If they did, why
    we do not see the names? What about the frameworks other than logging?

    4. The total number of views on which the comparisons are based on are very
    few. There are many more things to compare other than these bullets.

    Thanks for reading my opinion.

    Deniz Kaan Copur
    denizkaan@yahoo.com


  6. #6
    curt Guest

    Re: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?


    As the newsletter I received was sponsored by Oracle, I'm not suprised by
    your slanted results.

    "Glen Kunene" <gkunene@devx.com> wrote:
    >Which platform would you entrust your enterprise apps to, Java or .NET?

    Why?
    >What features would be on your enterprise security wish list?
    >
    >http://www.enterprise-zone.com/artic...a/GK0202-1.asp
    >
    >Let us know.
    >
    >Glen Kunene
    >Senior Editor
    >DevX.com
    >
    >



  7. #7
    Jeff Jones Guest

    Re: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?


    "Glen Kunene" <gkunene@devx.com> wrote:
    >Which platform would you entrust your enterprise apps to, Java or .NET?

    .NET

    >Why?

    Performance, life cycle cost, time to market, security, reliability, maintainability,
    scalability

    >What features would be on your enterprise security wish list?

    That MS would collect all the various security information into one well
    written document instead of scattered all over MSDN.

    As for the article on DevX, it really didn't say much. Foliage, the authors
    of the article, haven't worked on any recent Microsoft technology, according
    to their web site (http://www.foliage.com). They showed work on NT, DCOM,
    and SQL Server 7 - nothing about Win2K, XP, COM+, or SQL Server 2000, much
    less .NET.

    I have worked in a J2EE shop (Java, Oracle, Netscape, CORBA as core technologies),
    and have worked with MS technology for over 10 years. J2EE/CORBA/Oracle
    is more costly and unstable to develop with, and as prone to security problems
    (or more so) than Microsoft technology. What is often left out of the "politically
    correct" assumption that IIS is the dregs of security is that it is attacked
    many times more than UNIX based systems (Apache, Netscape, etc.), and thus
    would be breached more. I have heard from several developers who work in
    both UNIX and MS technologies that UNIX systems are easier to breach than
    Windows systems, especially in the web servers. It's just that the anti-MS
    zealots have more time on their hands to break the law by hacking into MS
    based systems. MS developers tend to actually be working for a living and
    having a social life, not hacking away in their basements.

    Given a real world, enterprise class project, I guarantee that I (or any
    experienced MS developer) could accomplish the project from requirements
    to delivery for half the cost, in half the time, delivering a more stable,
    reliable, scalable, secure, and maintainable system using .NET technologies
    versus the J2EE/CORBA/Oracle/UNIX technologies. When producing results matters,
    MS technologies (.NET, SQL Server, Win2K or XP, etc.) blow away UNIX based
    technologies (J2EE, CORBA, Oracle, etc.). The good business decision is
    .NET. The religious zealot's decision is J2EE.

    I wonder if DevX would profit from a well publicized shoot-out between volunteer
    developers, J2EE versus .NET. When the Foliage guys called Java the "more
    mature" technology, it was obvious they didn't really know MS technology
    well. Java was created to be the "VB" of UNIX. A simpler form of C++ that
    could be ported amongst the myriad UNIX platforms. CORBA was the DCOM wannbe.
    JDBC was the ODBC wannabe. Java was the VB wannabe. J2EE was the COM+
    wannabe. .NET is the culmination of technology that has been maturing before
    Java was ever written. You want maturity, go with MS technology. And hopefully,
    we can get comparisions from someone with real, *current* MS experience the
    next time.


  8. #8
    Rajesh Guest

    Re: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?


    "Jeff Jones" <jjones4@711Online.net> wrote:
    >
    >"Glen Kunene" <gkunene@devx.com> wrote:
    >>Which platform would you entrust your enterprise apps to, Java or .NET?

    >.NET
    >
    >>Why?

    >Performance, life cycle cost, time to market, security, reliability, maintainability,
    >scalability
    >
    >>What features would be on your enterprise security wish list?

    >That MS would collect all the various security information into one well
    >written document instead of scattered all over MSDN.
    >
    >As for the article on DevX, it really didn't say much. Foliage, the authors
    >of the article, haven't worked on any recent Microsoft technology, according
    >to their web site (http://www.foliage.com). They showed work on NT, DCOM,
    >and SQL Server 7 - nothing about Win2K, XP, COM+, or SQL Server 2000, much
    >less .NET.
    >
    >I have worked in a J2EE shop (Java, Oracle, Netscape, CORBA as core technologies),
    >and have worked with MS technology for over 10 years. J2EE/CORBA/Oracle
    >is more costly and unstable to develop with, and as prone to security problems
    >(or more so) than Microsoft technology. What is often left out of the "politically
    >correct" assumption that IIS is the dregs of security is that it is attacked
    >many times more than UNIX based systems (Apache, Netscape, etc.), and thus
    >would be breached more. I have heard from several developers who work in
    >both UNIX and MS technologies that UNIX systems are easier to breach than
    >Windows systems, especially in the web servers. It's just that the anti-MS
    >zealots have more time on their hands to break the law by hacking into MS
    >based systems. MS developers tend to actually be working for a living and
    >having a social life, not hacking away in their basements.
    >
    >Given a real world, enterprise class project, I guarantee that I (or any
    >experienced MS developer) could accomplish the project from requirements
    >to delivery for half the cost, in half the time, delivering a more stable,
    >reliable, scalable, secure, and maintainable system using .NET technologies
    >versus the J2EE/CORBA/Oracle/UNIX technologies. When producing results

    matters,
    >MS technologies (.NET, SQL Server, Win2K or XP, etc.) blow away UNIX based
    >technologies (J2EE, CORBA, Oracle, etc.). The good business decision is
    >.NET. The religious zealot's decision is J2EE.
    >
    >I wonder if DevX would profit from a well publicized shoot-out between volunteer
    >developers, J2EE versus .NET. When the Foliage guys called Java the "more
    >mature" technology, it was obvious they didn't really know MS technology
    >well. Java was created to be the "VB" of UNIX. A simpler form of C++ that
    >could be ported amongst the myriad UNIX platforms. CORBA was the DCOM wannbe.
    > JDBC was the ODBC wannabe. Java was the VB wannabe. J2EE was the COM+
    >wannabe. .NET is the culmination of technology that has been maturing before
    >Java was ever written. You want maturity, go with MS technology. And hopefully,
    >we can get comparisions from someone with real, *current* MS experience

    the
    >next time.
    >


    Well, slightly agree with the arguments given above. Definitely MS has a
    leading edge in case of development time,user interface or cost of the project
    is concerns. But I think we are discussing here on the security of the .Net
    and Java. So let's go along with it, don't deviate. My opinion on security
    is Java definitely has longggggggg edge over the market. History of the security
    breach shows that, IIS is the most vulnerable system if security is concerns.
    On the other hand, Java has been proven in the market, it was developed incermentally,
    and tested and implemented thoroughly in the market. Also I am strongly disagree
    with one of the author who says UNIX systems are easier to breach than MS.
    Any body can breach in the MS security, but UNIX can be breach by very few.
    That's why MS systems are easier to breach than the UNIX.

    Hope I am clear.

    Rajesh

  9. #9
    MarkN Guest

    Re: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?


    Java runs on more platforms that just Unix. It is NOT a Unix technology.
    It also runs on one of the most (if not the most) secure platforms. .Net
    will never run there (99.9% sure).

    Typically, the problems people have with developing in Java is due lack of
    experience, lack of knowledge and using the wrong tools or the wrong combination.
    The same problems they now will have with .Net. Sure I can crank out code
    with wizards but how maintainable, modifiable and reusable is that code?
    Not very good. How long is its lifecycle? Not very long.

    Your experience with Java says you worked in a Shop that attempts to use
    Java and Java Technologies. I would not consisder them a Java Shop.

    We are using Java in a high performance, distributed environment and it is
    very stable - Client(Swing) and Server side(Servlets). And Unix is not
    a platform we currently deploy to.

    I would say the good decision is Java. The short sighted, religious decision
    is .Net. .Net is a total change of direction and it is not yet complete
    because it still relies on COM for many things. And more scarily, it still
    is a single vendor, single platform solution. Does .Net introduce some new
    and good concepts? Sure. But it still doesn't do things Java does. How
    many things can I get for free with Java that I have to pay for with .Net?
    (Java - everything can be free | .Net - all major pieces cost). More and
    more companies and organizations are going to alternate platforms. Some
    slowly, some quickly.

    Mark

    "Jeff Jones" <jjones4@711Online.net> wrote:
    >
    >"Glen Kunene" <gkunene@devx.com> wrote:
    >>Which platform would you entrust your enterprise apps to, Java or .NET?

    >.NET
    >
    >>Why?

    >Performance, life cycle cost, time to market, security, reliability, maintainability,
    >scalability
    >
    >>What features would be on your enterprise security wish list?

    >That MS would collect all the various security information into one well
    >written document instead of scattered all over MSDN.
    >
    >As for the article on DevX, it really didn't say much. Foliage, the authors
    >of the article, haven't worked on any recent Microsoft technology, according
    >to their web site (http://www.foliage.com). They showed work on NT, DCOM,
    >and SQL Server 7 - nothing about Win2K, XP, COM+, or SQL Server 2000, much
    >less .NET.
    >
    >I have worked in a J2EE shop (Java, Oracle, Netscape, CORBA as core technologies),
    >and have worked with MS technology for over 10 years. J2EE/CORBA/Oracle
    >is more costly and unstable to develop with, and as prone to security problems
    >(or more so) than Microsoft technology. What is often left out of the "politically
    >correct" assumption that IIS is the dregs of security is that it is attacked
    >many times more than UNIX based systems (Apache, Netscape, etc.), and thus
    >would be breached more. I have heard from several developers who work in
    >both UNIX and MS technologies that UNIX systems are easier to breach than
    >Windows systems, especially in the web servers. It's just that the anti-MS
    >zealots have more time on their hands to break the law by hacking into MS
    >based systems. MS developers tend to actually be working for a living and
    >having a social life, not hacking away in their basements.
    >
    >Given a real world, enterprise class project, I guarantee that I (or any
    >experienced MS developer) could accomplish the project from requirements
    >to delivery for half the cost, in half the time, delivering a more stable,
    >reliable, scalable, secure, and maintainable system using .NET technologies
    >versus the J2EE/CORBA/Oracle/UNIX technologies. When producing results

    matters,
    >MS technologies (.NET, SQL Server, Win2K or XP, etc.) blow away UNIX based
    >technologies (J2EE, CORBA, Oracle, etc.). The good business decision is
    >.NET. The religious zealot's decision is J2EE.
    >
    >I wonder if DevX would profit from a well publicized shoot-out between volunteer
    >developers, J2EE versus .NET. When the Foliage guys called Java the "more
    >mature" technology, it was obvious they didn't really know MS technology
    >well. Java was created to be the "VB" of UNIX. A simpler form of C++ that
    >could be ported amongst the myriad UNIX platforms. CORBA was the DCOM wannbe.
    > JDBC was the ODBC wannabe. Java was the VB wannabe. J2EE was the COM+
    >wannabe. .NET is the culmination of technology that has been maturing before
    >Java was ever written. You want maturity, go with MS technology. And hopefully,
    >we can get comparisions from someone with real, *current* MS experience

    the
    >next time.
    >



  10. #10
    Jeff Jones Guest

    Re: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?


    Thank you for kindness in your reply. So let me kindly be specific where
    we can agree to disagree.

    >My opinion on security is Java definitely has longggggggg edge over the
    >market. History of the security breach shows that, IIS is the most
    >vulnerable system if security is concerns.

    Not really. It is the most attacked. IIS, properly setup, is as secure
    as any properly setup UNIX based web server.

    >On the other hand, Java has been proven in the market, it was developed


    >incermentally, and tested and implemented thoroughly in the market.

    And it was developed *after* Microsoft's VB technology. VB.NET is but another
    incremental (albeit a big one) step in the evolution of intelligent, efficient
    programming. Java has yet to catch up. No doubt it can, should Sun decide
    to spend their money on good developers instead of lawyers.

    >Also I am strongly disagree with one of the author who says UNIX systems


    >are easier to breach than MS.

    You can disagree, but I have heard this from several experienced UNIX admins.
    As with web servers, it depends more on the expertise of the OS admin than
    the OS itself. Both can be made secure, and both can be setup foolishly.

    >Any body can breach in the MS security, but UNIX can be breach by very
    >few. That's why MS systems are easier to breach than the UNIX.

    That is the "conventional wisdom", but like most "conventional wisdom", it
    has little to do with wisdom or reason. MS systems are attacked far more
    than UNIX based systems because there are more anti-MS zealots who have the
    time on their hands to wage war against MS than there are anti-UNIX zealots
    willing to do the same. Personally, I'd like to see MS and web site owners
    running MS OSs push law enforcement to catch, prosecute, and punish with
    the maximum sentence anyone who maliciously attacks an Internet site. Put
    a few of the anti-MS zealots (who break the law) in jail for a few years,
    and you'll see attacks on MS systems drop dramatically. On the other hand,
    web site owners have a responsibility to setup their sites securely, or accept
    the consequences. That means hiring experienced admins, whether UNIX or
    Windows.


  11. #11
    MarkN Guest

    Re: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?


    >>On the other hand, Java has been proven in the market, it was developed

    >
    >>incermentally, and tested and implemented thoroughly in the market.

    >And it was developed *after* Microsoft's VB technology. VB.NET is but another
    >incremental (albeit a big one) step in the evolution of intelligent, efficient
    >programming. Java has yet to catch up. No doubt it can, should Sun decide
    >to spend their money on good developers instead of lawyers.
    >


    .Net is a total, other than similar syntax, shift in direction. Where does
    Java have to catch up? .Net is an attempt to level the playing field.

  12. #12
    Jeff Jones Guest

    Re: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?


    >Java runs on more platforms that just Unix. It is NOT a Unix technology.

    Sure it is. Java is a proprietary programming language, made by Sun, who
    also makes the UNIX variant Solaris, and a line of servers and desktops that
    run UNIX only. Java shines on UNIX, and runs like a 3-legged donkey on Windows.

    >It also runs on one of the most (if not the most) secure platforms.

    If you are saying that UNIX is more secure than WindowsNT/2K/XP, then that
    is an opinion, but one without merit. A UNIX system setup by an experienced
    UNIX admin is no more secure than a Windows system set up by an experienced
    Windows admin. It is when either system is setup by the less experienced
    that problems arise. And I doubt UNIX systems could fare any better if they
    had the same level of attacks by zealots that MS sites have.

    >.Net will never run there (99.9% sure).

    The CLR is being ported to UNIX, though I do not know about the various Windows
    services the CLR exposes. However, SoftwareAG and MainWin have made Win32
    and VB runtime libraries for almost every UNIX variant for years. So I wouldn't
    say 99.9%, but a good port of most of the namespaces is possible. Personally,
    MS would be smarter to port it all to Apple's OSX first. They already have
    a number of MS products running on the Mac. Besides, MS probably has its
    hands full porting Visual Studio.NET to 64 bit Windows. There really isn't
    a good business case for choosing UNIX over Windows anyway. Life cycle cost
    is so much lower with Windows, without sacrificing performance, reliability,
    or scalability.

    >Typically, the problems people have with developing in Java is due lack

    of
    >experience, lack of knowledge and using the wrong tools or the wrong
    >combination.
    >Your experience with Java says you worked in a Shop that attempts to use
    >Java and Java Technologies. I would not consisder them a Java Shop.

    Actually, the company hired the best Java programmers, Oracle DB admins and
    programmers, and Sun Solaris admins available at the time, and paid well
    above the going rate to get them. All were experienced in their technologies
    before coming to that company. While I may not be an advocate of Java, Oracle,
    Sun, and other UNIX technologies, these guys and gals are some of the brightest
    lights on the string. They made some very complex n-tiered apps, but with
    *many* more man-hours required, and *many* more bugs in the version submitted
    to Quality Assurance than other complex n-tier apps done with MS technologies.

    >The same problems they now will have with .Net. Sure I can crank out
    >code with wizards but how maintainable, modifiable and reusable is that


    >code? Not very good. How long is its lifecycle? Not very long.

    So you really haven't used .NET in depth, I take it? .NET's wizards are
    helpful, but as all experienced VB programmers know, to make solid, efficient
    programs, you write code.

    >We are using Java in a high performance, distributed environment and it

    is
    >very stable - Client(Swing) and Server side(Servlets). And Unix is not
    >a platform we currently deploy to.

    If you mean you deploy to Windows, then I would have to wonder *why???*,
    other than if it is a product that must run on multiple OS platforms. The
    same software written in VB6 or VB.NET, ASP, etc. runs rings around Java
    in terms of performance, reliability, and scalability. And, it could be
    developed in half the man-hours with fewer bugs. And require less hardware
    resources to run. Java is the best bet for UNIX, for that is what it is
    designed for, and one can develop faster than in C++ on UNIX. But on Windows,
    it is way too slow and costly to compete with VB or .NET.

    >I would say the good decision is Java. The short sighted, religious
    >decision is .Net.

    Well, let's look at that. A religious decision is one made on faith, not
    solely on fact and reason. So let's say I have a project to do. MS technologies
    allow me (or my team) to develop in less time, with less expense (labor and
    materials), on less expensive platforms, with fewer bugs, better performance,
    and the ability to get it to market sooner with more features. So how do
    I explain to the CIO and CFO that I should spend more money so I can use
    Java? More cost, no additional benefits to show for that cost. Thus, the
    decision to use MS technologies is one based on a reasoned business case,
    whereas the decision to use UNIX technolgies (like Java) must ignore the
    facts and work against the business case - on faith.

    >.Net is a total change of direction and it is not yet complete
    >because it still relies on COM for many things.

    Don't fall for the hype that .NET is something new. It isn't. C# is new,
    as a language, to be sure. But VB.NET is a natural evolution of VB6. Webforms
    are an evolution of VB6's webclasses. Webservices are an evolution of the
    SOAP toolkit in VB6. ADO.NET is an evolution of ADO in VB6. COM was, and
    is, a very powerful feature of Windows that VB took great advantage of.
    You do not have to use COM in .NET, but you can if you choose. The namespaces
    available in .NET are, in my opinion, just an evolution of COM.

    >And more scarily, it still is a single vendor, single platform solution.


    Right and wrong. It is a single vendor development platform, jut as Java
    is a single vendor (Sun) development platform. *Nobody* adds anything to
    Java without Sun's permission and paying them dearly for the priviledge.
    As for the single platform, that is a strength, not a weakness. I can buy
    hardware from HP, Compaq, IBM, Dell - just about everybody but Sun - and
    run Windows. Windows provides a number of services you have to pay for in
    UNIX, and how Windows handles loading & referencing DLLs is vastly superior
    to the memory hogs found in UNIX. Sun should seriously worry when the MS
    BackOffice products and Visual Studio.NET are all ported to Win64. Right
    now, 32 bit systems are outperforming 64 bit UNIX systems. That gap will
    likely get much larger when MS solutions are 64 bit systems.

    >Does .Net introduce some new and good concepts? Sure. But it still
    >doesn't do things Java does.

    Such as? I guarantee you I (or any other experienced VB programmer) can
    develop to any spec Java programmers can.

    >How many things can I get for free with Java that I have to pay for
    >with .Net? (Java - everything can be free | .Net - all major pieces
    >cost).

    The .NET SDK, CLR, etc. is free. The tools cost money. VB.NET Standard
    is $99. Visual Studio Professional for students is $99. For less than $3,000,
    you can get every development tool, OS, BackOffice product, and desktop product
    that MS makes (MSDN Universal). What price is JBuilder and other professional-level
    Java development suites? Of course, in .NET as in Java, you can just run
    VI, EMACS, or some other freebie text editor and dispense with the tools
    altogether. Keep this in mind - 3rd parties develop far more professional-grade
    components for VB than for Java - because there is a profit in it. Without
    the profit motive, you get mediocrity. Look at the Open Software movement
    - lots of free stuff almost nobody wants. There are a number of good Java
    components on the market (see www.componentsource.com), but they come at
    a price.

    >More and more companies and organizations are going to alternate
    >platforms. Some slowly, some quickly.

    Not really. Most of the .COMs that died in the last year or so were UNIX/Java
    oriented. The slow time to market, lack of product features, and high life
    cycle cost added to the problem the companies had in turning a profit. It's
    now how many - it is how many are able to successfully run a business with
    the chosen technology.

    Now, I don't say any of this to change your mind. And I do not mean in any
    way to imply you are anything less than a knowledge professional in what
    you do. I assume we both like the technologies we've chosen, are good at
    what we do, and will stay with them. But, it is good for those who may stumble
    across this thread to hear a good back-and-forth on the subject, so they
    can make up their own minds.



  13. #13
    MarkN Guest

    Re: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?


    "Jeff Jones" <jjones4@711Online.net> wrote:
    >
    >>Java runs on more platforms that just Unix. It is NOT a Unix technology.

    >Sure it is. Java is a proprietary programming language, made by Sun, who
    >also makes the UNIX variant Solaris, and a line of servers and desktops

    that
    >run UNIX only. Java shines on UNIX, and runs like a 3-legged donkey on

    Windows.

    Java is not made by Sun alone. This is FUD.

    Well it runs great on Windows for us. Maybe Windows is a 3-legged donkey.
    So it runs on Unix really good? I would love to use it instead of Windows
    then. How much MS code runs on AS400, Unix, OS390, Linux, OS2, .... ?

    >
    >>It also runs on one of the most (if not the most) secure platforms.

    >If you are saying that UNIX is more secure than WindowsNT/2K/XP, then that
    >is an opinion, but one without merit. A UNIX system setup by an experienced
    >UNIX admin is no more secure than a Windows system set up by an experienced
    >Windows admin. It is when either system is setup by the less experienced
    >that problems arise. And I doubt UNIX systems could fare any better if

    they
    >had the same level of attacks by zealots that MS sites have.
    >


    No, I am talking about OS390.

    >>.Net will never run there (99.9% sure).

    >The CLR is being ported to UNIX, though I do not know about the various

    Windows
    >services the CLR exposes. However, SoftwareAG and MainWin have made Win32
    >and VB runtime libraries for almost every UNIX variant for years. So I

    wouldn't
    >say 99.9%, but a good port of most of the namespaces is possible. Personally,
    >MS would be smarter to port it all to Apple's OSX first. They already have
    >a number of MS products running on the Mac. Besides, MS probably has its
    >hands full porting Visual Studio.NET to 64 bit Windows. There really isn't
    >a good business case for choosing UNIX over Windows anyway.


    Again, I wasn't taking about Unix.
    Uh, MS is not porting it. It the port to Linux is getting no help from MS.
    If anything, they are hindering the move. If it suceeds, it will be very
    bad for them.

    >Life cycle cost
    >is so much lower with Windows, without sacrificing performance, reliability,
    >or scalability.


    Is it? The whole lifecycle? What if the lifecycle is shorter? And performance
    is better on Unix with Java (according to you). Wouldn't .Net run there
    (and on Mainframes) faster and better and be more scalable?

    >
    >>Typically, the problems people have with developing in Java is due lack

    >of
    >>experience, lack of knowledge and using the wrong tools or the wrong
    >>combination.
    >>Your experience with Java says you worked in a Shop that attempts to use
    >>Java and Java Technologies. I would not consisder them a Java Shop.

    >Actually, the company hired the best Java programmers, Oracle DB admins

    and
    >programmers, and Sun Solaris admins available at the time, and paid well
    >above the going rate to get them. All were experienced in their technologies
    >before coming to that company. While I may not be an advocate of Java,

    Oracle,
    >Sun, and other UNIX technologies, these guys and gals are some of the brightest
    >lights on the string. They made some very complex n-tiered apps, but with
    >*many* more man-hours required, and *many* more bugs in the version submitted
    >to Quality Assurance than other complex n-tier apps done with MS technologies.


    Well, we SEEM to be less experienced but don't have the same problems. Obviously
    they didn't hire the best.

    >
    >>The same problems they now will have with .Net. Sure I can crank out
    >>code with wizards but how maintainable, modifiable and reusable is that

    >
    >>code? Not very good. How long is its lifecycle? Not very long.

    >So you really haven't used .NET in depth, I take it?


    Obviously you haven't used Java in depth.

    >.NET's wizards are
    >helpful, but as all experienced VB programmers know, to make solid, efficient
    >programs, you write code.


    Thats my point. Take away the wizards and coding in .Net is no faster than
    Java with a notepad. And if you look around, there are few experienced (according
    to your definition) VB programmers. By the way I am experienced with VB
    and MS technologies.

    >
    >>We are using Java in a high performance, distributed environment and it

    >is
    >>very stable - Client(Swing) and Server side(Servlets). And Unix is not
    >>a platform we currently deploy to.

    >If you mean you deploy to Windows, then I would have to wonder *why???*,
    >other than if it is a product that must run on multiple OS platforms. The
    >same software written in VB6 or VB.NET, ASP, etc. runs rings around Java
    >in terms of performance, reliability, and scalability. And, it could be
    >developed in half the man-hours with fewer bugs. And require less hardware
    >resources to run. Java is the best bet for UNIX, for that is what it is
    >designed for, and one can develop faster than in C++ on UNIX. But on Windows,
    >it is way too slow and costly to compete with VB or .NET.


    That is what you say. But we are doing it. Why are we deploying to Windows?
    Because that is what is there. I can run Linux and Java on a 486. Try
    that with .Net.

    >
    >>I would say the good decision is Java. The short sighted, religious
    >>decision is .Net.

    >Well, let's look at that. A religious decision is one made on faith, not
    >solely on fact and reason. So let's say I have a project to do. MS technologies
    >allow me (or my team) to develop in less time, with less expense (labor

    and
    >materials), on less expensive platforms, with fewer bugs, better performance,
    >and the ability to get it to market sooner with more features. So how do
    >I explain to the CIO and CFO that I should spend more money so I can use
    >Java? More cost, no additional benefits to show for that cost. Thus, the
    >decision to use MS technologies is one based on a reasoned business case,
    >whereas the decision to use UNIX technolgies (like Java) must ignore the
    >facts and work against the business case - on faith.


    Your presupposition is based on FUD and/or a bad experience.

    >
    >>.Net is a total change of direction and it is not yet complete
    >>because it still relies on COM for many things.

    >Don't fall for the hype that .NET is something new. It isn't. C# is new,
    >as a language, to be sure. But VB.NET is a natural evolution of VB6. Webforms
    >are an evolution of VB6's webclasses. Webservices are an evolution of the
    >SOAP toolkit in VB6. ADO.NET is an evolution of ADO in VB6. COM was, and
    >is, a very powerful feature of Windows that VB took great advantage of.


    >You do not have to use COM in .NET, but you can if you choose. The namespaces
    >available in .NET are, in my opinion, just an evolution of COM.


    So where is the missing link? I've looked at VB.Net and it is totally different.
    It is not evolution - it is creation.

    >
    >>And more scarily, it still is a single vendor, single platform solution.

    >
    >Right and wrong. It is a single vendor development platform, jut as Java
    >is a single vendor (Sun) development platform.

    Java is not single vendor. Sun is somewhat in control. That is all.

    > *Nobody* adds anything to
    >Java without Sun's permission and paying them dearly for the priviledge.

    FUD.

    > As for the single platform, that is a strength, not a weakness. I can

    buy
    >hardware from HP, Compaq, IBM, Dell - just about everybody but Sun - and
    >run Windows.


    Could you make mine run? It crashes alot.
    If you think single vendor is a strength ...
    If the hardware vendors don't use install Windows they pay dearly.

    >Windows provides a number of services you have to pay for in
    >UNIX, and how Windows handles loading & referencing DLLs is vastly superior
    >to the memory hogs found in UNIX. Sun should seriously worry when the MS
    >BackOffice products and Visual Studio.NET are all ported to Win64. Right
    >now, 32 bit systems are outperforming 64 bit UNIX systems. That gap will
    >likely get much larger when MS solutions are 64 bit systems.


    Look beyond Unix. You seem to be stuck on it. I'm not.

    >
    >>Does .Net introduce some new and good concepts? Sure. But it still
    >>doesn't do things Java does.

    >Such as? I guarantee you I (or any other experienced VB programmer) can
    >develop to any spec Java programmers can.


    So if VB6 is so good why is it so gone? From experience, I'm able to do
    things in Java that could NEVER be done in VB. Maybe I can in .Net.

    >
    >>How many things can I get for free with Java that I have to pay for
    >>with .Net? (Java - everything can be free | .Net - all major pieces
    >>cost).

    >The .NET SDK, CLR, etc. is free. The tools cost money. VB.NET Standard
    >is $99. Visual Studio Professional for students is $99. For less than

    $3,000,
    >you can get every development tool, OS, BackOffice product, and desktop

    product
    >that MS makes (MSDN Universal). What price is JBuilder and other professional-level
    >Java development suites? Of course, in .NET as in Java, you can just run
    >VI, EMACS, or some other freebie text editor and dispense with the tools
    >altogether. Keep this in mind - 3rd parties develop far more professional-grade
    >components for VB than for Java - because there is a profit in it. Without
    >the profit motive, you get mediocrity. Look at the Open Software movement
    >- lots of free stuff almost nobody wants. There are a number of good Java
    >components on the market (see www.componentsource.com), but they come at
    >a price.


    JBOSS - Free
    Apache.org - Free
    Linux - Free
    Eclipse/Netbeans - Free
    MySQL - Free

    All quality products. None mediocre.

    >
    >>More and more companies and organizations are going to alternate
    >>platforms. Some slowly, some quickly.

    >Not really. Most of the .COMs that died in the last year or so were UNIX/Java
    >oriented. The slow time to market, lack of product features, and high life
    >cycle cost added to the problem the companies had in turning a profit.

    It's
    >now how many - it is how many are able to successfully run a business with
    >the chosen technology.


    Looks like you've researched alot of Companies. I would venture a guess
    that this is just a guess to support your unsupported presupposition.

    >
    >Now, I don't say any of this to change your mind. And I do not mean in

    any
    >way to imply you are anything less than a knowledge professional in what
    >you do. I assume we both like the technologies we've chosen, are good at
    >what we do, and will stay with them. But, it is good for those who may

    stumble
    >across this thread to hear a good back-and-forth on the subject, so they
    >can make up their own minds.
    >


    Same here. I am using .Net too. Only where I have to.

    Mark

  14. #14
    Jeff Jones Guest

    Re: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?


    >Java is not made by Sun alone. This is FUD.

    LOL! Yeah, right. Try adding anything to the Java language, and see what
    happens. Sun has, and will continue, to sue anyone changing their copyrighted
    product without their permission. Lots of folks do things *with* Java, but
    Sun owns it lock, stock, and barrel.

    >Well it runs great on Windows for us. Maybe Windows is a 3-legged donkey.
    >So it runs on Unix really good? I would love to use it instead of Windows

    Then do it. Perhaps your apps aren't very demanding.

    >How much MS code runs on AS400, Unix, OS390, Linux, OS2, .... ?

    A lot if you use MainWin's Win32 libraries. And optionally SoftwareAG's VB
    runtime libraries (which run on UNIX and IBM-compatible mainframes). Other
    than that, why should MS make their stuff run on OS platforms that are not
    cost effective against the myriad of hardware platforms that already run
    Windows?

    >No, I am talking about OS390.

    That clears it up. I didn't see that in the other postings. I was focused
    more on mainstream (as in number of servers running the OS) OSs, which is
    Windows and UNIX.

    >Again, I wasn't taking about Unix.

    Granted. Same reasoning applies, even more so, to "new construction" when
    it comes to OS390.

    >Uh, MS is not porting it. It the port to Linux is getting no help from


    >MS. If anything, they are hindering the move. If it suceeds, it will be


    >very bad for them.

    The company that is porting it was mentioned in an article I read (not from
    MS) where MS is cooperating.

    >Is it? The whole lifecycle? What if the lifecycle is shorter?

    Yes, where lifecycle is closely tied to depreciation. The shorter the life
    cycle, the more important rapid development is to reducing cost, which gives
    the edge to MS products.

    >And performance is better on Unix with Java (according to you).
    >Wouldn't .Net run there (and on Mainframes) faster and better and be more


    >scalable?

    No. Windows does so much more than UNIX (a much older OS architecture).
    It is a myth that UNIX outperforms Windows. If you are just running the
    barebones kernel, then yes, UNIX outperforms Windows (except perhaps the
    embedded Windows which eliminates a lot fo the extras). But who runs a server
    jsut to run the kernel? Add real world applications, and Windows outperforms
    UNIX. Look at the top ten TPC-C benchmarks. Same scenario for UNIX and
    Windows, yet Windows wins hands down.

    >Well, we SEEM to be less experienced but don't have the same problems.


    >Obviously they didn't hire the best.

    No need to insult your Java colleagues. As I said before, perhaps the distributed
    apps they did were simply more complex.

    >Obviously you haven't used Java in depth.

    Nope. I used it some, but I draw from my work with, and observation of,
    several other developers who *do* use Java in depth. When results count,
    Java presents problems to the bottom line. If the bottom line is irrelevant,
    or existing OSs mandate it, then there is nothing wrong with Java.

    >Thats my point. Take away the wizards and coding in .Net is no faster
    >than Java with a notepad.

    I guess I misunderstood what you meant by wizards. A good IDE is not a wizard
    in what I was talking about. I was referring to writing ADO code as opposed
    to using ADO controls and bound controls, for example. .NET's IDE, as was
    VB6's IDE, is much more productive than the competition.

    >And if you look around, there are few experienced (according
    >to your definition) VB programmers. By the way I am experienced with VB
    >and MS technologies.

    Actually, there are more than experienced Java programmers. I took time
    off to write my own components for sale, and now that I am finished, I am
    back in the job market. At least here in Atlanta, lots more VB programmers
    in professional coding positions than Java programmers in trhe same professional
    level jobs. I hear the same from recruiters - that they place more VB than
    Java folks. I am sure it varies from place to place.

    >That is what you say.

    That is also what I do. I've done several projects in the past where the
    Java folks tried to develop the same thing. I always finished first, with
    fewer bugs, more features, and requiring less hardware for it to run on.

    >But we are doing it. Why are we deploying to Windows? Because that is
    >what is there.

    I can see it if your customer requires you to use Windows and Java. That
    doesn't leave you much room but to do it that way.

    >I can run Linux and Java on a 486.

    And do what with it? There isn't much of a market for those old boat anchors.

    >Try that with .Net.

    I wouldn't. No reason to. I can imagine trying to sell a CIO on using old
    junky 486s that can't be maintained and can't support much in the way of
    applications. Especially when I can get a new PC for less than $1000. it
    jsut doesn't make sense, except for the hobbyist.

    >Your presupposition is based on FUD and/or a bad experience.

    LOL! "FUD" seems to be the last refuge of those who can't accept reality.
    It is based on reality, study, analysis, and the experience of very qualified
    people.

    >So where is the missing link? I've looked at VB.Net and it is totally
    >different. It is not evolution - it is creation.

    Well, I explained what evolved to what. If that wasn't clear enough, I really
    don't know how to make it simpler. I have been programming in VB since V1
    10 years ago. The biggest hurdle is changing from COM objects to namespaces,
    since the names aren't always the same. But that is a small hurdle compared
    to learning Java for a VB programmer.

    >> *Nobody* adds anything to
    >>Java without Sun's permission and paying them dearly for the priviledge.

    >FUD.

    Come on, name a company who has extended the Java language or made a Java
    VM without Sun's permission.

    >Could you make mine run? It crashes alot.

    Probably. Are you running NT, Win2K, or XP? Whose JVM do you use? Are
    you sure your drivers were certified for the OS? Have you checked for memory
    leaks in non-MS apps? I've had NT servers than run for months before being
    rebooted, and only then to upgrade something. Win2K and XP do the same.
    It's like I said - it is more dependent on the skills of eh admin than the
    type of OS used.

    >If you think single vendor is a strength ...
    >If the hardware vendors don't use install Windows they pay dearly.

    Used to. MS stopped doing that a while back. Most all of them offer Linux
    or other UNIX OSs. Its just that most people want Windows. In a sense,
    they do pay dearly if they don't offer Windows - they sell less hardware.

    >Look beyond Unix. You seem to be stuck on it. I'm not.

    That is because I didn't know until this post you were working with OS390.
    Like I said, Windows and UNIX is the vast majority of server OSs.

    >So if VB6 is so good why is it so gone?

    It's not gone. I still use it. MS still supports it, and will for the next
    few years, at least. Their policy is to support products up to two versions
    back. Heck, I can still find support at MS for VB3.

    >From experience, I'm able to do
    >things in Java that could NEVER be done in VB.

    Name some. I'll be glad to send you the code in VB6 to do it.

    >Maybe I can in .Net.

    If you want to.

    >JBOSS - Free
    >Apache.org - Free
    >Linux - Free
    >Eclipse/Netbeans - Free
    >MySQL - Free
    >All quality products. None mediocre.

    Apache - maybe, but it is (from the admins I talked to) more difficult to
    install and maintain. Definitely the choice of hobbyists. Linux is going
    the way of OS2. It lacks the maturity of Windows, and its biggest drawback
    is that Linux is still UNIX. A 35 year old OS that was designed to have
    a high and long learning curve. It was based on the presumption that hardware
    resources were a restrictive cost. MySQL isn't scalable, and any kind of
    Java beans is old technology.

    I would recommend taking a look at http://www.objectwatch.com/, run by one
    of CORBA's founders, Roger Sessions. He is an expert on both sides, and
    gives good advice on both.

    >Looks like you've researched alot of Companies. I would venture a guess
    >that this is just a guess to support your unsupported presupposition.

    You would venture wrong. I've been through two downsized companies, and
    that got me to thinking. So I did some research, and found a common thread
    among the "middle of the bell curve" of those companies that failed.

    >Same here. I am using .Net too. Only where I have to.

    I hope .NET only gets better for you. Then you'll have two powerful development
    platforms to use.


  15. #15
    MarkN Guest

    Re: .NET vs. Enterprise Java: Who's Got Better Security?



    "Jeff Jones" <jjones4@bellsouth.net> wrote:
    >
    >>Java is not made by Sun alone. This is FUD.

    >LOL! Yeah, right. Try adding anything to the Java language, and see what
    >happens. Sun has, and will continue, to sue anyone changing their copyrighted
    >product without their permission. Lots of folks do things *with* Java,

    but
    >Sun owns it lock, stock, and barrel.

    With IBM, Oracle, Bea, etc. java is nothing and Sun knows it.

    >
    >>Well it runs great on Windows for us. Maybe Windows is a 3-legged donkey.
    >>So it runs on Unix really good? I would love to use it instead of Windows

    >Then do it. Perhaps your apps aren't very demanding.

    Yes they are. And it runs on multiple Machines. They are very demanding
    and Java does the job. Java is used in stock market applications which are
    very demanding.

    >
    >>How much MS code runs on AS400, Unix, OS390, Linux, OS2, .... ?

    >A lot if you use MainWin's Win32 libraries. And optionally SoftwareAG's

    VB
    >runtime libraries (which run on UNIX and IBM-compatible mainframes). Other
    >than that, why should MS make their stuff run on OS platforms that are not
    >cost effective against the myriad of hardware platforms that already run
    >Windows?

    First, it wouldn't run as well. Second, depending on the application, it
    can be cost effective.

    >
    >>No, I am talking about OS390.

    >That clears it up. I didn't see that in the other postings. I was focused
    >more on mainstream (as in number of servers running the OS) OSs, which is
    >Windows and UNIX.
    >
    >>Again, I wasn't taking about Unix.

    >Granted. Same reasoning applies, even more so, to "new construction" when
    >it comes to OS390.
    >
    >>Uh, MS is not porting it. It the port to Linux is getting no help from

    >
    >>MS. If anything, they are hindering the move. If it suceeds, it will be

    >
    >>very bad for them.

    >The company that is porting it was mentioned in an article I read (not from
    >MS) where MS is cooperating.

    Which one?

    >
    >>Is it? The whole lifecycle? What if the lifecycle is shorter?

    >Yes, where lifecycle is closely tied to depreciation. The shorter the life
    >cycle, the more important rapid development is to reducing cost, which gives
    >the edge to MS products.


    Then you don't understand life cycle. You want the life cycle of an application
    to be as long as possible. A life cycle is not just designing coding and
    implementing. You want the iterations to be short.

    >
    >>And performance is better on Unix with Java (according to you).
    >>Wouldn't .Net run there (and on Mainframes) faster and better and be more

    >
    >>scalable?

    >No. Windows does so much more than UNIX (a much older OS architecture).
    > It is a myth that UNIX outperforms Windows. If you are just running the
    >barebones kernel, then yes, UNIX outperforms Windows (except perhaps the
    >embedded Windows which eliminates a lot fo the extras). But who runs a

    server
    >jsut to run the kernel? Add real world applications, and Windows outperforms
    >UNIX. Look at the top ten TPC-C benchmarks. Same scenario for UNIX and
    >Windows, yet Windows wins hands down.


    Benchmarks are usually rigged. Talk to IBM. The have a hand in all platforms.
    For the right application UNIX can save an organiztion money.

    >
    >>Well, we SEEM to be less experienced but don't have the same problems.


    >
    >>Obviously they didn't hire the best.

    >No need to insult your Java colleagues. As I said before, perhaps the distributed
    >apps they did were simply more complex.

    OO design and coding does take long than proceedural. But the design and
    coding iterations can be shorter. It is not an insult just realility.

    >
    >>Obviously you haven't used Java in depth.

    >Nope. I used it some, but I draw from my work with, and observation of,
    >several other developers who *do* use Java in depth. When results count,
    >Java presents problems to the bottom line. If the bottom line is irrelevant,
    >or existing OSs mandate it, then there is nothing wrong with Java.
    >

    How long ago was this Java developement? Java works and works well. The
    fact that there is good Java development going on leaves the only answer
    to be they weren't that experienced.

    >>Thats my point. Take away the wizards and coding in .Net is no faster


    >>than Java with a notepad.

    >I guess I misunderstood what you meant by wizards. A good IDE is not a

    wizard
    >in what I was talking about. I was referring to writing ADO code as opposed
    >to using ADO controls and bound controls, for example. .NET's IDE, as was
    >VB6's IDE, is much more productive than the competition.


    I've used both (VB more than any Java) and I am more productive in my Java
    IDE.

    >
    >>And if you look around, there are few experienced (according
    >>to your definition) VB programmers. By the way I am experienced with VB
    >>and MS technologies.

    >Actually, there are more than experienced Java programmers. I took time
    >off to write my own components for sale, and now that I am finished, I am
    >back in the job market. At least here in Atlanta, lots more VB programmers
    >in professional coding positions than Java programmers in trhe same professional
    >level jobs. I hear the same from recruiters - that they place more VB than
    >Java folks. I am sure it varies from place to place.


    I was using 'experienced' the way you were. There are many VB programmers.
    The majority of them are not 'experienced'. All of which will have to a
    new language be it VB.Net or C# or ... .

    >
    >>That is what you say.

    >That is also what I do. I've done several projects in the past where the
    >Java folks tried to develop the same thing. I always finished first, with
    >fewer bugs, more features, and requiring less hardware for it to run on.


    10 years experience vs a couple years at best? Sounds fair to me. Getting
    done first is not the most important thing. Have you ever watch junkyard
    wars?

    Yes, bugs are bad. But usually programmer error not language.

    Have you really compared VB.Net and C# with Java? As languages, they really
    are no different.

    >
    >>But we are doing it. Why are we deploying to Windows? Because that is


    >>what is there.

    >I can see it if your customer requires you to use Windows and Java. That
    >doesn't leave you much room but to do it that way.

    The same is true if they require MS tools and platform. WHat is your point?

    >
    >>I can run Linux and Java on a 486.

    >And do what with it? There isn't much of a market for those old boat anchors.


    You said Java has greater platform requirements. Just proving it doesn't.
    By the way, they make good firewalls. And embedded computers.

    >
    >>Try that with .Net.

    >I wouldn't. No reason to. I can imagine trying to sell a CIO on using

    old
    >junky 486s that can't be maintained and can't support much in the way of
    >applications. Especially when I can get a new PC for less than $1000.

    it
    >jsut doesn't make sense, except for the hobbyist.


    Lots of 386 and 486 computers are in use today.

    >
    >>Your presupposition is based on FUD and/or a bad experience.

    >LOL! "FUD" seems to be the last refuge of those who can't accept reality.
    > It is based on reality, study, analysis, and the experience of very qualified
    >people.

    Your reality and research which seem to be limited. I look everywhere and
    see Java succeeding.

    >
    >>So where is the missing link? I've looked at VB.Net and it is totally


    >>different. It is not evolution - it is creation.

    >Well, I explained what evolved to what. If that wasn't clear enough, I

    really
    >don't know how to make it simpler. I have been programming in VB since

    V1
    >10 years ago. The biggest hurdle is changing from COM objects to namespaces,
    >since the names aren't always the same. But that is a small hurdle compared
    >to learning Java for a VB programmer.


    But VB6 is dead. VB.Net is totally different. And it and C# resemble Java
    so much that it is laughable. And the IDE is different. So a good Java
    programmer has a shorter distance to .Net than most VBers.

    >
    >>> *Nobody* adds anything to
    >>>Java without Sun's permission and paying them dearly for the priviledge.

    >>FUD.

    >Come on, name a company who has extended the Java language or made a Java
    >VM without Sun's permission.

    IBM.

    >
    >>Could you make mine run? It crashes alot.

    >Probably. Are you running NT, Win2K, or XP? Whose JVM do you use? Are
    >you sure your drivers were certified for the OS? Have you checked for memory
    >leaks in non-MS apps? I've had NT servers than run for months before being
    >rebooted, and only then to upgrade something. Win2K and XP do the same.

    It has nothing to do with Java. It is Windows. You are lucky. Must not
    be doing anything complicated.

    > It's like I said - it is more dependent on the skills of eh admin than

    the
    >type of OS used.
    >
    >>If you think single vendor is a strength ...
    >>If the hardware vendors don't use install Windows they pay dearly.

    >Used to.

    Still do. And it is worse. Thanks justice department.

    > MS stopped doing that a while back. Most all of them offer Linux
    >or other UNIX OSs. Its just that most people want Windows. In a sense,
    >they do pay dearly if they don't offer Windows - they sell less hardware.


    No people don't 'want' Windows. The are ill informed or aren't given a choice.
    Go to Best buy and find a computer with anything besides Windows. Find
    one without any OS. You won't.

    >
    >>Look beyond Unix. You seem to be stuck on it. I'm not.

    >That is because I didn't know until this post you were working with OS390.



    > Like I said, Windows and UNIX is the vast majority of server OSs.

    Are they? The major of server applications are in COBOL and they run on
    Mainframes.

    >
    >>So if VB6 is so good why is it so gone?

    >It's not gone. I still use it. MS still supports it, and will for the

    next
    >few years, at least. Their policy is to support products up to two versions
    >back. Heck, I can still find support at MS for VB3.

    Good as gone. I guess that means OS2 isn't gone either.

    >
    >>From experience, I'm able to do
    >>things in Java that could NEVER be done in VB.

    >Name some. I'll be glad to send you the code in VB6 to do it.

    Try doing MVC.

    >
    >>Maybe I can in .Net.

    >If you want to.

    I don't think MVC programming can fully be done in .Net

    >
    >>JBOSS - Free
    >>Apache.org - Free
    >>Linux - Free
    >>Eclipse/Netbeans - Free
    >>MySQL - Free
    >>All quality products. None mediocre.

    >Apache - maybe, but it is (from the admins I talked to) more difficult to
    >install and maintain. Definitely the choice of hobbyists. Linux is going
    >the way of OS2.


    If OS2 is going like gangbusters then yes.

    >It lacks the maturity of Windows, and its biggest drawback
    >is that Linux is still UNIX. A 35 year old OS that was designed to have
    >a high and long learning curve. It was based on the presumption that hardware
    >resources were a restrictive cost. MySQL isn't scalable, and any kind of
    >Java beans is old technology.

    I didn't mention any Java beans. Obviously you are ill informed in Java
    and OpenSource.

    >
    >I would recommend taking a look at http://www.objectwatch.com/, run by one
    >of CORBA's founders, Roger Sessions. He is an expert on both sides, and
    >gives good advice on both.


    I don't use CORBA. Maybe that is the problem.

    >
    >>Looks like you've researched alot of Companies. I would venture a guess
    >>that this is just a guess to support your unsupported presupposition.

    >You would venture wrong. I've been through two downsized companies, and
    >that got me to thinking. So I did some research, and found a common thread
    >among the "middle of the bell curve" of those companies that failed.
    >

    Ok. I am constant looking at trends. Linux use is on the rise. So is Java.

    >>Same here. I am using .Net too. Only where I have to.

    >I hope .NET only gets better for you. Then you'll have two powerful development
    >platforms to use.
    >


    Me too. Makes me more marketable. Not that I need more work.




Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
HTML5 Development Center
 
 
FAQ
Latest Articles
Java
.NET
XML
Database
Enterprise
Questions? Contact us.
C++
Web Development
Wireless
Latest Tips
Open Source


   Development Centers

   -- Android Development Center
   -- Cloud Development Project Center
   -- HTML5 Development Center
   -- Windows Mobile Development Center