Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop? - Page 2


DevX Home    Today's Headlines   Articles Archive   Tip Bank   Forums   

Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 115

Thread: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

  1. #16
    Brad O'Hearne Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    Hey Marc, BradO here. Comments below:

    "Marc Latham" <mlatham23@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >As a developer and application designer I avoid writing or specing applications
    >that use Java for 2 reasons 1) the applications run in intrepreted mode

    and
    >are as slow as molassas


    Hmmm...not my experience, but possibly poorly developed.

    >2) The base of developers writing in Java is so small
    >that it is hard to get good developers at a reasonable cost.


    Are you serious? There is a huge base of Java developers out there, and
    in fact, a recent survey showed that Java is the #1 requested programming
    languages by employers. I can't remember where I saw that survey, but I
    recently read it. But in addition, I know of many Java developers who are
    looking for work! I think compared to something like VB the cost of a developer
    might be different, because the skill level required is greater. There were
    many non-programmers that became VB programmers, which sounds great, but
    was probably to its detriment in many ways. The cost of a VB programmer
    will be less than a Java programmer on average.

    >Also as a developer I don't want to ship my source code in an open format,
    >I spend 2 years writing something and then have some big corporation steal
    >it and use it no thanks. The best way to prevent code theft is not to expose
    >the code. Also from a supportability issue if the users can open the code
    >and modify it how the heck am I supposed to support them when the code they
    >are running may not even match the original distribution.


    Well, to someone really determined, there will nearly always be a way to
    steal. There are decompilers for many languages on the Net, and Java is
    no exception. Obfuscation, as another poster mentioned, is an option, but
    that leads to the "security by obscurity" debate, which is a huge tangential
    argument that you can engage in in many places on the Web. This is kind
    of the Napster/RIAA/digital content/DMCA issue all over again -- how do you
    solve the problem of theft when the item in question can ALWAYS be stolen?
    Do you sink millions into a technology to protect you partially? Do you
    withhold your product from your market entirely? Do you incent people to
    not steal? Or do you do nothing and hope for the best? Good questions...if
    you solve the problem, let the RIAA know... :-)

    Cheers,

    BradO

  2. #17
    Brad O'Hearne Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    Hey Uwe, BradO. Comments below:

    "Uwe W. Radu" <uradu@cdc.net> wrote:
    >Pretty much. Just check out some of the flagship apps, such as Borland's
    >JBuilder, which pushes Swing about as far as it will go. They're very sluggish
    >applications, both in terms of overall response, as well as little GUI things,
    >such as mousing over menus or toolbars and feeling like trying to run in
    >honey. The GUI is not quite crisp and keeping up with experienced users.


    I think it is hard to cite JBuilder as an example of Swing failure. Most
    users who are satisfied with the functionality provided rave about it (and
    I would as well, for what features it provides). And in addition, it is
    raking in $1k-$5k/license (depending on edition purchased), so the community
    must not be wholly disappointed.

    >
    >The other main problem is startup lag. Java apps have a lot of startup overhead,
    >including the constant time to load the JVM, which becomes particularly

    noticeable
    >with small to medium-sized apps. Let's face it, such apps are the bread

    and
    >butter of corporate development: tons of custom programs to massage data
    >or display odd reports to this or that manager or department. These apps
    >might be run so frequently that having any significant lag can become very
    >annoying after a while.
    >


    I continue to be fascinated by the "startup lag" issue. Sure, lag isn't
    desirable. But this is a one-time hit, and it is minimal. Consider the
    other performance hits we incur commonly and accept: loading of a web page,
    downloads, refreshing virus definitions, etc. It isn't that I am trying
    to justify lag, just showing a different perspective on it. Is this one
    time lag (which can be minimized by shrewd design) enough to completely throw
    out a fantastic technology, that solves huge problems in portability across
    platforms? And let's not forget, we tolerate everyday, in some cases many
    times a day, the ultimate violator of "startup lag" -- any version of MS
    Windows. It is hard for me to take startup lag complaints seriously (and
    still perform other tasks simultaneously) when we all fill our coffee cups
    while Windows boots. (Ok, a bit of hyperbole, but you see the point...:-)

    Cheers,

    BradO

  3. #18
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    I tried in 2000 the Forte 4 Java tool produced by Sun and it was crappy at
    most... Garbage collections that halted the app every 10 minutes on a system
    with 256 Megs of RAM (that's 2 and a half years ago), slow response times
    (does anyone remember the rule of 1/10 of a second?). Last autumn I tried
    Forte v3 and I was amazed: even scrolling was much improved; the secret?
    Some of the code (the performance critical parts, I guess) seem to have been
    converted from Java to C (I'm talking about some internal classes that have
    vanished from the source code of Swing from one version to the next one; the
    same thing seems to have happened with Forte). Where's the performance of
    the JVM? Where's the portability? Can Sun handle the task of converting (and
    maintaining) the Java code to platform specific C code for every bottleneck
    in it's APIs?
    I wish we had a truly component-oriented GUI framework that was well
    designed, performed well on any platform and let me focus on my application,
    not on common problems faced by every GUI developer. I think it's not going
    to be Swing, because the JVM as it is today, has yet to be improved when it
    comes to performance issues (Swing it's reasonably well designed and Java
    does work on many platforms); it might be .NET, because it has reasonably
    good performance (the CLR performs way better than the JVM from many points
    of view), .NET Framework is quite well designed although there's room for
    improvement and it has the potential of becoming platform independent
    (although MS will never support this).
    As a developer, I try to keep pace with both of these worlds and do whatever
    my customers want me to do. At this moment, when it comes to desktop apps, I
    do reccomend .NET Framework since it outperforms Swing and, let's face it,
    most of the people have Windows on their desktop.
    Best regards,
    Ovidiu.



  4. #19
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    <Q>
    As a developer, I try to keep pace with both of these worlds and do whatever
    my customers want me to do. At this moment, when it comes to desktop apps,
    I
    do reccomend .NET Framework since it outperforms Swing and, let's face it,
    most of the people have Windows on their desktop.
    </Q>

    And MS thanks you for working to keep it that way. And I (and developers
    like me) thank you for not providing competition to our applications.

  5. #20
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    It really isn't difficult to teach users how to keep often used applications
    open and how to navigate to them.

  6. #21
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "MarkN" <M@n.com> wrote in message news:3d870914$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > <Q>
    > As a developer, I try to keep pace with both of these worlds and do

    whatever
    > my customers want me to do. At this moment, when it comes to desktop apps,
    > I
    > do reccomend .NET Framework since it outperforms Swing and, let's face it,
    > most of the people have Windows on their desktop.
    > </Q>
    >
    > And MS thanks you for working to keep it that way. And I (and developers
    > like me) thank you for not providing competition to our applications.

    Basic (MS, why not?) philosophy: go where the money is...



  7. #22
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?



    > Basic (MS, why not?) philosophy: go where the money is...


    That is my point. Why not target a wider (and future) audience?


  8. #23
    Rob Abbe Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    "Marc Latham" <mlatham23@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >As a developer and application designer I avoid writing or specing applications
    >that use Java for 2 reasons 1) the applications run in intrepreted mode

    and
    >are as slow as molassas 2) The base of developers writing in Java is so

    small
    >that it is hard to get good developers at a reasonable cost.


    LOL that's funny. The number of Java developers just continues to grow as
    does the demand for Java. Just do a nation wide search on Monster.com and
    you will see that there are just about 2 Java jobs for every 1 VB job.

    It seems that .Net has not created much in the way of NEW opportunities for
    Microsoft developers. That is not to say that existing shops are not using
    it, but it has not been the Java killer MS hoped it would be... not even
    close.

    Rob

  9. #24
    Rob Abbe Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    "MarkN" <m@N.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >> Basic (MS, why not?) philosophy: go where the money is...

    >
    >That is my point. Why not target a wider (and future) audience?
    >


    Not to mention the VB market is dead.

  10. #25
    Rob Abbe Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    "Uwe W. Radu" <uradu@cdc.net> wrote:
    >
    >> Surely the CLR is very similar to the JVM?

    >
    >No, not really. There is no VM in .NET (though planned, I hear), only a

    JIT
    >compiler. Secondly, .NET apps can be compiled two ways, either at run-time,
    >or at installation time. I'd say common usage once .NET hits the masses

    will
    >probably favor the second approach for obvious performance reasons.


    In the compile at runtime model you mentioned, .Net apps are compiled Just
    In Time. So yes the CLR is very much analogous to the Java JVM which also
    JIT COMPILES to native code.


  11. #26
    Rob Abbe Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    Bruce,

    There are third party compilers that do just what you say. The problem being
    that Java performance just isn't that bad anymore. I'll take the default
    distribution myself. It's great to have the all native option though.

    Rob

    "Bruce Attah" <bruce.attah@afang.demon.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >"Uwe W. Radu" <uradu@cdc.net> wrote:
    >I agree. It has always seemed obvious to me that this is the way Java should
    >be distributed, but Sun doesn't seem to like the idea, for some reason.

    Back
    >in the dark ages, Pascal was originally succesful because it was distributed
    >as a "P-code" compiler and a P-code virtual machine. Great portability was
    >a big attraction, but then it gained a reputation for slowness, and C became
    >more popular. Sun should learn from history. Portability at the source code/intermediate
    >code level, coupled with speed on actual delivery is the way to win.
    >
    >What's more, if they think about it, the Java-to-native compiler-installer
    >could have a few bells and whistles attached that would attract developers.
    >What if the compiler implemented protocols to check the byte-code somehow
    >(the signature concept could be fed a course of steroids, since installation
    >is a relatively infrequent thing) to ensure that it was what it said it

    was,
    >or check that the user was suitably registered or otherwise qualified before
    >installing anything? Users and developers would both love this.
    >
    >



  12. #27
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    > It seems that .Net has not created much in the way of NEW opportunities
    for
    > Microsoft developers. That is not to say that existing shops are not

    using
    > it, but it has not been the Java killer MS hoped it would be... not even
    > close.

    You're right... or not. Think about it this way: .NET is 7 months old (I'm
    not talking about the marketing logo, I'm talking about the framework, the
    development tools and so on). Where was Java 7 months after it's first
    release version? Cleaning up the AWT mess? Swing wasn't even at the design
    stage at that moment, to get back to the original point... .NET does all
    Java does and it does it somewhat better (imo, surely you'll say a different
    story).
    If I'm right, you'll be learning .NET programming in a couple of years. If
    not, then I'll switch entirely to Java (I already know Java so it won't be a
    severe shock for me). So what?
    Ovidiu.



  13. #28
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    >
    > That is my point. Why not target a wider (and future) audience?
    >

    Why not work with both .NET and Java and adapt myself to my customers'
    needs?



  14. #29
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    "Ovidiu Platon" <ovidiupl@microsoft-lab.pub.ro> wrote:
    >>
    >> That is my point. Why not target a wider (and future) audience?
    >>

    >Why not work with both .NET and Java and adapt myself to my customers'
    >needs?
    >
    >


    Replace 'needs' with 'wants' then ok. If the customer wants (demands) .Net
    then I will give that to them.

    For apps I have the choice in, I will [usually] use Java because I can target
    a wider audience - and I need to. It will give my clients choice - they
    can choose and change their operating system (client and server) and any
    support software. They can pay for what they want for whatever comfort level
    they want.

  15. #30
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    The offical release is that old(young). But .Net really is much older. It
    had Java to learn from. How long has it really been in development? We
    won't learn the truth but I suspect right about the time MS was trying to
    fork Java.

    And it doesn't do all that Java does. It does have some features Java doesn't.
    Not anything Java isn't going to have or doesn't need. .Net may do everything
    you 'need' to do and so seems to be able to everything Java does. For at
    least one - it doesn't run on z/OS.


    "Ovidiu Platon" <ovidiupl@microsoft-lab.pub.ro> wrote:
    >> It seems that .Net has not created much in the way of NEW opportunities

    >for
    >> Microsoft developers. That is not to say that existing shops are not

    >using
    >> it, but it has not been the Java killer MS hoped it would be... not even
    >> close.

    > You're right... or not. Think about it this way: .NET is 7 months old (I'm
    >not talking about the marketing logo, I'm talking about the framework, the
    >development tools and so on). Where was Java 7 months after it's first
    >release version? Cleaning up the AWT mess? Swing wasn't even at the design
    >stage at that moment, to get back to the original point... .NET does all
    >Java does and it does it somewhat better (imo, surely you'll say a different
    >story).
    > If I'm right, you'll be learning .NET programming in a couple of years.

    If
    >not, then I'll switch entirely to Java (I already know Java so it won't

    be a
    >severe shock for me). So what?
    > Ovidiu.
    >
    >



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
HTML5 Development Center
 
 
FAQ
Latest Articles
Java
.NET
XML
Database
Enterprise
Questions? Contact us.
C++
Web Development
Wireless
Latest Tips
Open Source


   Development Centers

   -- Android Development Center
   -- Cloud Development Project Center
   -- HTML5 Development Center
   -- Windows Mobile Development Center