Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop? - Page 4


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Thread: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

  1. #46
    jon Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    Java is not suited for the desktop. Swing is a kluge and has proved it over
    and over. Right now Sun needs to concentrate on the Web anyway, before J#
    does to Java what JScript did to Javascript.

    J
    "Information does not want to be free. It wants to be 69 cents @ pound."

  2. #47
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    > Right now Sun needs to concentrate on the Web anyway,
    > before J# does to Java what JScript did to Javascript.


    Jon: What did JScript do to JavaScript? JavaScript seems to be alive and well (I
    don't know anyone who writes JScript-specific code, do you?)
    --
    Phil Weber



  3. #48
    Brad O'Hearne Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    Hey Rob, thanks for the reply! Comments below:

    "Rob Abbe" <rabbe@mn.rr.com> wrote in message news:3d8b757a$1@10.1.10.29...
    > Thanks for giving me the chance to back pedal, but I never pull a punch on
    > this issue. I feel that .Net seems to be what J++ would have been had Sun
    > not stepped in. A version of Java limited (currently) to the Windows

    platform.
    >


    Java limited to the the Windows platform wouldn't have been Java.... :-). I
    think we may be somewhat hashing semantics, but I think it important to
    consider Java as a platform (which it is), and not just a language. As a
    platform, portability is inherent in the definition, so to make it native is
    somewhat tampering with that.

    > What do you see as the major differences? C# is an unsafe spin off of the
    > Java language (i.e. the unsafe keyword) Also, it compiles to byte

    code(MISL),
    > the plumbing is very similar... garbage collection and finalization not to
    > mention it is JIT compiled. The model for JIT is different, but JIT by

    any
    > other name...
    >
    > I see them as being fundamentally the same.


    In a sense, you are correct that many of the features, and things that .NET
    is trying to accomplish share similarities with the Java platform. C# is
    very similar to the Java langauge. And I could say the same thing about
    J2EE and COM+/Component Services and/or .NET as component architectures too.
    They are both different approaches to the same problems, so sure, they will
    share similarities. Anyway, my intention was not to start a thread on .NET
    vs. Java differences, but just to point out that Java != .NET, even though
    they share similarities in approach here and there. I think it is important
    to tell those new to Java that they arent' the same, and not only
    technically. Perhaps the biggest difference is the community and culture
    surrounding them:

    ..NET = single vendor, Java = multi vendor
    ..NET = implementation, Java = specification
    ..NET = no choice, Java = choice
    ..NET = controlled community, Java = free(er) community

    Those all are BIG issues when choosing a technology, a vendor, and
    implementing a project.

    BradO

    --
    Brad O'Hearne
    brado@neurofire.com
    DevX Section Leader




  4. #49
    Brad O'Hearne Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    Hey Jon, BradO here. I have a comment below:

    "jon" <jonpgden@attbi.com> wrote in message news:3d8bd8a0$1@10.1.10.29...
    > before J# does to Java what JScript did to Javascript.


    J# is essentially a dead path (in itself) already, even at the admission of
    Microsoft. J# is by the admission of Microsoft a migration path for Java
    developers to convert to .NET and C#. From everything I have heard,
    Microsoft does not intend to support or push J# long term. It is just a
    hook to bring existing Java developers to C#.

    BradO
    --
    Brad O'Hearne
    brado@neurofire.com
    DevX Section Leader



  5. #50
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "Markn" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d8b306d$1@10.1.10.29...
    > But I agree. In many ways it isn't. .Net is so limiting.
    >

    In what ways?



  6. #51
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "Rob Abbe" <rabbe@mn.rr.com> wrote in message news:3d8b1d0c$1@10.1.10.29...
    > Congratulations and welcome to Java!
    >

    10x. Actually, I knew Java way before .NET was publicly announced and now I
    find myself being much more comfortable with .NET...



  7. #52
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    People with limited skill sets and/or limited requirements and/or limited
    vision tend to be more comfortable with .Net.


    "Ovidiu Platon" <ovidiupl@microsoft-lab.pub.ro> wrote:
    >"Rob Abbe" <rabbe@mn.rr.com> wrote in message news:3d8b1d0c$1@10.1.10.29...
    >> Congratulations and welcome to Java!
    >>

    >10x. Actually, I knew Java way before .NET was publicly announced and now

    I
    >find myself being much more comfortable with .NET...
    >
    >



  8. #53
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    You've used Java for quite a while. If you don't know by now, you never will.

    "Ovidiu Platon" <ovidiupl@microsoft-lab.pub.ro> wrote:
    >"Markn" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d8b306d$1@10.1.10.29...
    >> But I agree. In many ways it isn't. .Net is so limiting.
    >>

    >In what ways?
    >
    >



  9. #54
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    >Java is not suited for the desktop.

    Based on what? Many are using it successfully. It seems to be suited for
    the handhelds/phones.

    >Swing is a kluge and has proved it over
    >and over.

    So Swing == Java? Is that your basis? So Swing is the only Java GUI technology?

    >Right now Sun needs to concentrate on the Web anyway,

    Why? The focus is back on the desktop. An HTML interface for anything more
    than a simple business interface is horrid. Many are beginning to realize
    that. With Webstart and the .Net 'equivilent' the need for browser based
    interfaces has greatly lessened.

    >before J#

    Someone else has already addressed this.

    >does to Java what JScript did to Javascript.

    This one too.


  10. #55
    Rob Abbe Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    BradO,

    I didn't realize you were talking about it on this level. It's refreshing
    to have someone here who sees the big picture. I do very much love to point
    out the similarities in the two platforms, because it represents a huge change
    in tactics from what Microsoft had been pushing prior to .Net.

    I see your point, when you look at the big picture the culture of the two
    platforms is indeed very different. Java is an enabling technology that
    provides customers and developers with a great number of options without
    locking them down to a particular vendor. .Net on the other hand provides
    a great toolset for those willing to be locked forever into using Microsoft
    technology.

    Rob Abbe

    "Brad O'Hearne" <brado@neurofire.com> wrote:
    >..NET = single vendor, Java = multi vendor
    >..NET = implementation, Java = specification
    >..NET = no choice, Java = choice
    >..NET = controlled community, Java = free(er) community
    >
    >Those all are BIG issues when choosing a technology, a vendor, and
    >implementing a project.



  11. #56
    Rob Abbe Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    Like Brad said, it locks you and more importantly your customers into using
    Microsoft technology. Java does not do this. Java is better for the IT
    industry than .Net is. .Net is self centered. Java is industry centered.

    "Ovidiu Platon" <ovidiupl@microsoft-lab.pub.ro> wrote:
    >"Markn" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d8b306d$1@10.1.10.29...
    >> But I agree. In many ways it isn't. .Net is so limiting.
    >>

    >In what ways?
    >
    >



  12. #57
    Rob Abbe Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    Ovidiu,

    What is that makes you prefer .Net to Java? Just VS.Net? Obviously being
    skilled in both is only to your benefit. Having used Java, I am very comfortable
    with C# I simply can't see any advantage of using it over Java.

    Rob

    "Ovidiu Platon" <ovidiupl@microsoft-lab.pub.ro> wrote:
    >"Rob Abbe" <rabbe@mn.rr.com> wrote in message news:3d8b1d0c$1@10.1.10.29...
    >> Congratulations and welcome to Java!
    >>

    >10x. Actually, I knew Java way before .NET was publicly announced and now

    I
    >find myself being much more comfortable with .NET...
    >
    >



  13. #58
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "Rob Abbe" <rabbe@mn.rr.com> wrote in message news:3d8f0a15$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > Ovidiu,
    >
    > What is that makes you prefer .Net to Java? Just VS.Net? Obviously being
    > skilled in both is only to your benefit. Having used Java, I am very

    comfortable
    > with C# I simply can't see any advantage of using it over Java.
    >
    > Rob
    >

    No, it's not just VS.NET. For instance, when it comes to IDEs, I think of
    Together as a somewhat better tool than VS.NET. It's just that my guts tell
    me that Microsoft has learned from its previous mistakes, from Sun's steps
    on the evolution path and created something better than Java (as a language
    and as a platform); performance remains the main argument (yes, I know that
    MS has the framework tweaked and optimized for Win32) - check out code being
    ported on sourceforge.net, for instance, and compare the execution times on
    your PC, on any software platform. And there are other thing, such as
    versioning, the type system, operators, reflection and some more things
    (more or less minor, imo) such as events, properties, enums, structs and so
    on (how do you create an "automatic" type in Java?).



  14. #59
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "MarkN" <m@N.com> wrote in message news:3d8efee7$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > >Java is not suited for the desktop.

    > Based on what? Many are using it successfully. It seems to be suited for
    > the handhelds/phones.
    >

    ROTFL :-))
    J2ME is a big bluff... The bytecodes don't even resemble to the J2SE spec...

    > >Right now Sun needs to concentrate on the Web anyway,

    > Why? The focus is back on the desktop. An HTML interface for anything

    more
    > than a simple business interface is horrid. Many are beginning to realize
    > that. With Webstart and the .Net 'equivilent' the need for browser based
    > interfaces has greatly lessened.
    >

    I agree with you on this, but keep this in mind: with MS controlling the
    desktop, you should expect .NET framework to be the choice for desktop apps.
    If the Mono/Rotor things get past the beta phase, you'll also have
    portability, which basically throws Swing out of the arena; something more:
    portability is usually the strongest argument in favor of Java, but, imo,
    except for the desktop apps, portability is pretty much irrelevant. And
    desktop apps is exactly the place where Sun has nothing to say at this
    moment.

    Best regards,
    Ovidiu.



  15. #60
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    "Ovidiu Platon" <ovidiupl@microsoft-lab.pub.ro> wrote:
    >"MarkN" <m@N.com> wrote in message news:3d8efee7$1@10.1.10.29...
    >>
    >> >Java is not suited for the desktop.

    >> Based on what? Many are using it successfully. It seems to be suited

    for
    >> the handhelds/phones.
    >>

    >ROTFL :-))
    >J2ME is a big bluff... The bytecodes don't even resemble to the J2SE spec...


    Probably because they are separate things????

    >
    >> >Right now Sun needs to concentrate on the Web anyway,

    >> Why? The focus is back on the desktop. An HTML interface for anything

    >more
    >> than a simple business interface is horrid. Many are beginning to realize
    >> that. With Webstart and the .Net 'equivilent' the need for browser based
    >> interfaces has greatly lessened.
    >>

    >I agree with you on this, but keep this in mind: with MS controlling the
    >desktop, you should expect .NET framework to be the choice for desktop >apps.


    They are doing their best to blow this. The economy and world opinion are
    working to change it too. The fact that MS is in control is a reason to
    not do .Net. Also, Most desktop apps (business ones) require some server-side
    code where MS doesn't rule. So for apps like this .Net is not the best choice
    for the desktop side.

    >If the Mono/Rotor things get past the beta phase, you'll also have
    >portability,


    Allegedly. Looking at MS's past and that Windows and having everything run
    on it is of utmost importance the the survival of their company - don't bet
    on it.

    > which basically throws Swing out of the arena;

    Throw it out now. Use SWT.

    >something more:
    >portability is usually the strongest argument in favor of Java, but, imo,
    >except for the desktop apps, portability is pretty much irrelevant.

    Then you must not be doing server-side stuff. Because it highly matters
    there.

    >And
    >desktop apps is exactly the place where Sun has nothing to say at this
    >moment.

    So. Ignore them on this matter and use another Java GUI API.


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