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Thread: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

  1. #61
    Rob Abbe Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    Ovidiu,

    You may have bought too much in to they hype around .Net. You seem to base
    most of your assumptions on the continued success of the Windows desktop.
    Java is more than adequate on the Desktop for business solutions, but I
    think you need to open your eyes to the larger picture. Computers are getting
    smaller and more specialized everyday. Everyday, Windows becomes a little
    less relevant than it was the day before. End to End solutions need to look
    past the desktop, from the largest computers to the smallest. This is where
    the beauty of Java can be seen.

    Consider this, I can run the Same Pac-Man game on my Sprint PCS phone, My
    PDA and My desk top. What has made this possible? Java technology.

    Until now, everytime a new video game system was released, you would have
    to throw away all your old games. If video game vendors standardize on Java,
    you're old games will be able to take advantage of the new hardware without
    being recompiled. This is very cool indeed.

    It's fortunate that you know Java as well as .Net because Java is only getting
    stronger and there will only be more opportunities as time passes and the
    best part is it won't only be for Windows programming.

    Java takes Windows out of the equation and that is what makes it so great!

    Rob Abbe


    "Ovidiu Platon" <ovidiupl@microsoft-lab.pub.ro> wrote:
    >"Rob Abbe" <rabbe@mn.rr.com> wrote in message news:3d8f0a15$1@10.1.10.29...
    >>
    >> Ovidiu,
    >>
    >> What is that makes you prefer .Net to Java? Just VS.Net? Obviously being
    >> skilled in both is only to your benefit. Having used Java, I am very

    >comfortable
    >> with C# I simply can't see any advantage of using it over Java.
    >>
    >> Rob
    >>

    >No, it's not just VS.NET. For instance, when it comes to IDEs, I think of
    >Together as a somewhat better tool than VS.NET. It's just that my guts tell
    >me that Microsoft has learned from its previous mistakes, from Sun's steps
    >on the evolution path and created something better than Java (as a language
    >and as a platform); performance remains the main argument (yes, I know that
    >MS has the framework tweaked and optimized for Win32) - check out code being
    >ported on sourceforge.net, for instance, and compare the execution times

    on
    >your PC, on any software platform. And there are other thing, such as
    >versioning, the type system, operators, reflection and some more things
    >(more or less minor, imo) such as events, properties, enums, structs and

    so
    >on (how do you create an "automatic" type in Java?).
    >
    >



  2. #62
    David Bayley Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    Brad O'Hearne wrote:

    > Java limited to the the Windows platform wouldn't have been Java....
    > :-). I think we may be somewhat hashing semantics, but I think it
    > important to consider Java as a platform (which it is), and not just
    > a language. As a platform, portability is inherent in the
    > definition, so to make it native is somewhat tampering with that.


    Whilst that is now true, I think that is what caused MS to fork off from
    Java-the-platform. Originally, when they got involved, it was just a
    language with a few base classes. I remember reading quotes from MS
    about how Java is a great language, but not a great platform. Sun
    obviously had different ideas, and went and added JNI and RMI to the
    spec..

    We know have J2ME/Swing/J2SE, and it is abundantly clear that Java is
    indeed a competing platform, not just a language. Perhaps if Sun had
    handed Java over to standards bodies, things would be different. There
    would be no .NET, but instead a core Java runtime around which many
    frameworks compete. But they didn't, and instead to this day, Sunacle
    are continuing to promote their competing platform using the courts.
    Technology aside, using government is worse than anything MS have done
    IMO.

    > Perhaps the biggest difference is the community and
    > culture surrounding them:
    >
    > .NET = single vendor, Java = multi vendor
    > .NET = implementation, Java = specification
    > .NET = no choice, Java = choice
    > .NET = controlled community, Java = free(er) community


    C#/CLI = multi-vendor, specification, choice, free community, plus
    *standards*. .NET != C#/CLI. This is a very important difference,
    since it is counter-productive IMO to try to standardise everything in
    one homogonized platform (whether it comes from one company or a
    committee). Inevitably they will only get a few things right, but most
    wrong.

    What good is de-facto Swing, if developers prefer SWT. What good is
    de-facto J2EE, if developers prefer 3rd-party Web and Persistence
    frameworks. What good is de-facto J2ME, if developers prefer <insert
    the next preferred mobile framework here>.

    Vendor choice is important, but it means nothing without API choice. As
    a developer, I think framework APIs are critical, and they are so hard
    to do well that the only solution is provide a platform that promotes
    competing designs. There is little competition in implementing a
    spec'ed out interface designed by a committee. If the design sucks,
    then every implementation will suck.

    Standards need to be limited in scope, in order to promote innovation
    and competition. C++/STL is a good example, COM/CORBA is another, and
    most recently the Web Services efforts of MS/IBM/W3C might prove to be a
    third.

    > Those all are BIG issues when choosing a technology, a vendor, and
    > implementing a project.


    Having had my little rant, I do agree with you that the multi-OS,
    multi-vendor benefits of Java are BIG benefits. Without doubt there are
    lots of large enterprises that benefit greatly from consolidating
    technology around a uniform platform, without the need to scrap existing
    hardware/OS investments, or worse, outsource the whole IT function over
    to a single vendor.

    But that's just large enterprises. For the other 80% of the business
    market, not to mention the consumer market, the value proposition of
    Java is lost. An advertising company can use Macs, and Mac developers
    can target advertising companies. ACME co. can use Windows, and Windows
    developers can target ACME co.'s. Gamers can use PS/2, and games
    developers can target PS/2.

    Here's hoping that some kind soul will donate/subsidise a Windows XP l&f
    for Java-the-platform, before the next 3D rendering, ink and speech
    recognising, web service remoting, UI hits the streets. ;^)

    --
    David




  3. #63
    David Bayley Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    Rob Abbe wrote:

    > You may have bought too much in to they hype around .Net. You seem
    > to base most of your assumptions on the continued success of the
    > Windows desktop.


    Ovidiu's criticisms have been sound. The essential point is that a .NET
    developer can provide better solutions to Windows users than a Java
    developer. You are fumbling around with some floozy argument trying to
    discredit the technical arguments that Ovidiu raised. It doesn't look
    good.

    > Consider this, I can run the Same Pac-Man game on my Sprint PCS
    > phone, My PDA and My desk top. What has made this possible? Java
    > technology.


    I've considered it, and it is a solution in dire need of a problem. If
    I want to play a game on my PDA, then I want it to be the best, at least
    if you expect me to pay for it. If I also want to play that game on my
    PC/Console, then it better be a **** site better than the crappy PDA
    version. If you don't provide that flashy version that makes the best
    of the platform I'm using, then rest assured your competitors will.

    I don't care how much time you saved developing to the lowest common
    denominator. Me, Joe Gamer, is only going to pay for the best game my
    hardware can drive. I didn't go and watch Spiderman in the cinema
    because TV wasn't showing repeats of the 70's series!

    > Java takes Windows out of the equation and that is what makes it so
    > great!


    I can see the billboards for PacMan II now... "Windows is out of the
    equation!". Try and have some empathy for the end-user, rather than
    your problems as a developer. There will be no shortage of kids porting
    the old Atari games for free to PDAs. Those games will be a dime a
    dozen. End-users only pay for state-of-the-art.

    As for the relatively trivial business apps, declaritive XML provides
    much better platform-independence than Java.

    --
    David.




  4. #64
    David Bayley Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    Brad O'Hearne wrote:

    >> slow response times
    >> (does anyone remember the rule of 1/10 of a second?).

    >
    > No...Windows itself doesn't meet this standard, and I haven't seen
    > too many web sites lately that load in that amount of time (of
    > course, due to network latency, but it's all moot to an end-user).


    There's too many apples compared to oranges here. A user is quite happy
    to make a cup'o'cha whilst the operating system is booting first thing
    in the day. If the latency of starting Java apps could be removed with
    a "QuickStart" option, then all would be fine. Users wouldn't be
    bothered whilst they decide how many sugars to take that morning.

    But there is no "Java QuickStart" option. Every Java app takes an
    embarrassingly long time to start. The purple UI that *pretends* to be
    Windows compliant is bad enough, but if I'm a sales rep and Joe Customer
    rings me up, then a 10 second delay before I can come up with a coherent
    response is not only embarrassing, but is potentially a lost sale to my
    competitors who can strike up a relationship more immediately.

    Regarding web sites, you might want to consider the amount of money
    users are prepared to pay every month on broadband (at least here in
    Europe), just to eliminate that lag. Again, it is an apples to oranges
    comparison. Web sites suck, and the dot-com bubble has burst already!
    Users prefer instantaneous feedback, and they are prepared to pay for
    broadband if it removes that lag.

    --
    David




  5. #65
    Brad O'Hearne Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    Hey David, BradO here:

    "David Bayley" <dbayley@spamless.aebacus.com> wrote in message
    news:3d8fa738@10.1.10.29...
    > Brad O'Hearne wrote:
    >
    > >> slow response times
    > >> (does anyone remember the rule of 1/10 of a second?).

    > >
    > > No...Windows itself doesn't meet this standard, and I haven't seen
    > > too many web sites lately that load in that amount of time (of
    > > course, due to network latency, but it's all moot to an end-user).

    >
    > There's too many apples compared to oranges here. A user is quite happy
    > to make a cup'o'cha whilst the operating system is booting first thing
    > in the day. If the latency of starting Java apps could be removed with
    > a "QuickStart" option, then all would be fine. Users wouldn't be
    > bothered whilst they decide how many sugars to take that morning.


    My purpose isn't to get into a trivial back-and-forth, though many consider
    having to boot your OS once a day a bad thing (and we both know that any
    heavy duty usage usually means more than one boot a day on Windows), but
    that is not really the issue. The issue is that the measure of a
    good-performing GUI is not dead GUI speed (a scale on which many of the
    GUI's we use every day fail on), it is acceptable usability.

    BradO

    --
    Brad O'Hearne
    brado@neurofire.com
    DevX Section Leader



  6. #66
    Brad O'Hearne Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    Hey David, BradO here. Thanks for the reply. My comments are below, and I
    disagree with many of your statements, but I enjoy the conversation. Thanks
    for posting!

    "David Bayley" <dbayley@spamless.aebacus.com> wrote in message
    news:3d8f6966@10.1.10.29...
    > Whilst that is now true, I think that is what caused MS to fork off from
    > Java-the-platform.


    I feel that I can say pretty authoritatively (as at the time, I was mired
    deep in a Java/COM project that suffered from this "fork"), that this was
    not the case. MS technological directions have been first and foremost
    designed to protect and promote the Windows OS, *not* to promote the best
    for the developer community. Though this is my humble opinion, I think it
    is fair to say that it is well supported by the events that played out. MS
    building native calls into the language is clearly a violation of the Java
    specification, as it defeats portability, the goal for the platform. It is
    also blatantly obvious what the objective was: dependence on native calls =
    dependence on a specific OS. When MS lost the lawsuit to Sun, MS just took
    their ball and went home, and left everyone using J++ and or Java/COM
    objects hanging in the wind. This was purely political, not technological,
    much like the dropping of the VM from XP.

    > We know have J2ME/Swing/J2SE, and it is abundantly clear that Java is
    > indeed a competing platform, not just a language. Perhaps if Sun had
    > handed Java over to standards bodies, things would be different. There
    > would be no .NET, but instead a core Java runtime around which many
    > frameworks compete. But they didn't, and instead to this day, Sunacle
    > are continuing to promote their competing platform using the courts.
    > Technology aside, using government is worse than anything MS have done
    > IMO.


    I couldn't disagree more here. From the get-go, Java has been more than a
    language, it has been a platform. There is no Java with just language
    syntax...there's the VM, the runtime, etc. In addition, MS would never have
    promoted Java if they couldn't control it. Again, as soon as their efforts
    to manipulate the Java platform were thwarted, they turned the turrets on
    Java and have tried to derail it (and still are). C# is nothing more than a
    direct attempt to end Java usage on the Windows platform. MS could have
    built full Java compatibility or at least tight integration into .NET
    possibly, but they didn't, nor to my knowledge were there any attempts to.
    They have offered J#, a Windows-only teaser to get Java developers to move
    to C#. I believe MS has outright stated J# will not exist long-term.

    > C#/CLI = multi-vendor, specification, choice, free community, plus
    > *standards*.


    You must be privy to information that I am not. I do not see Microsoft
    delivering specification, but implementation, and I don't see MS delivering
    API's, and the community providing the implementation of such. If you are
    referring to the current CLR efforts on other platforms, I'll give you that
    (and we will wait to see what this means), but there is no multi-vendor
    situation in MS land. .NET is brought to you by MS - no one else.

    > What good is de-facto Swing, if developers prefer SWT. What good is
    > de-facto J2EE, if developers prefer 3rd-party Web and Persistence
    > frameworks. What good is de-facto J2ME, if developers prefer <insert
    > the next preferred mobile framework here>.


    I think you need to consider a couple of things. First, I can't consider
    your examples fact. I don't think that anyone can claim that all developers
    prefer SWT, developers prefer 3rd Party enterprise platforms, and other
    mobile APIs. But second, and more importantly, you are essentially saying,
    "what good is choice, if developers choose something else?". The value of
    choice is huge. There is no choice in MS-land. If you don't like things
    the way MS has implemented them, too bad. I don't see how this is somehow a
    more desirable situation. It is choice that is a strength of the Java
    platform, and it is choice that will continue to strengthen the platform in
    the future, as what the developer community deems important will affect its
    direction.

    > But that's just large enterprises. For the other 80% of the business
    > market, not to mention the consumer market, the value proposition of
    > Java is lost.


    Disagree entirely. Your statement is based on the premise that only large
    enterprises need portability. Completely untrue. I run Windows, Linux,
    MacOs, and Palm in my home office. I think Java more than any other
    development platform takes us closer to where we should be technologically,
    and that is commoditized OS's. With the hardware progress and software
    technological progress we have made, we are still behind the curve in this
    area. As developers, we should be able to view the OS as a swappable
    widget. I don't see Redmond having any interest in such technological
    progress.

    David, I respect your opinion, and can tell that you are an MS advocate,
    which is great. It was a pleasure responding!

    BradO

    --
    Brad O'Hearne
    brado@neurofire.com
    DevX Section Leader



  7. #67
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    > ...and we both know that any heavy duty usage usually
    > means more than one boot a day on Windows...


    Brad: I guess that depends on how you define "heavy duty," but my Windows XP
    systems (which I use for software development) typically run days or weeks
    between reboots. The reboots are rarely due to system crashes; they're usually
    required as part of a software install.

    Brad, I respect your opinion, and can tell that you are a Java advocate, which
    is great. It was a pleasure responding! ;-)
    --
    Phil Weber




  8. #68
    Jon Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    "Rob Abbe" <fdsj@fds.com> wrote:
    >
    >"Marc Latham" <mlatham23@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >>As a developer and application designer I avoid writing or specing applications
    >>that use Java for 2 reasons 1) the applications run in intrepreted mode

    >and
    >>are as slow as molassas 2) The base of developers writing in Java is so

    >small
    >>that it is hard to get good developers at a reasonable cost.

    >
    >LOL that's funny. The number of Java developers just continues to grow

    as
    >does the demand for Java. Just do a nation wide search on Monster.com and
    >you will see that there are just about 2 Java jobs for every 1 VB job.
    >
    >It seems that .Net has not created much in the way of NEW opportunities

    for
    >Microsoft developers. That is not to say that existing shops are not using
    >it, but it has not been the Java killer MS hoped it would be... not even
    >close.
    >
    >Rob



    Oh but it has been a Java Killer !!! Thats why everyone is looking for Java
    developers !! No one wants to do it anymore !!!
    Jeeeez ..


  9. #69
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "MarkN" <m@N.com> wrote in message news:3d8f216b$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > They are doing their best to blow this. The economy and world opinion are
    > working to change it too. The fact that MS is in control is a reason to
    > not do .Net.


    So, your message is "Whatever you do, don't write code for M$ platforms",
    right? Well, I don't know whether this helps Java in any way: instead of
    pointing out its advantages, you do something known to us as "M$ bashing"
    :-)) Some arguments...

    > Also, Most desktop apps (business ones) require some server-side
    > code where MS doesn't rule. So for apps like this .Net is not the best

    choice
    > for the desktop side.
    >


    That's what the Web Services are all about....

    > >If the Mono/Rotor things get past the beta phase, you'll also have
    > >portability,

    >
    > Allegedly. Looking at MS's past and that Windows and having everything

    run
    > on it is of utmost importance the the survival of their company - don't

    bet
    > on it.
    >


    I don't. Microsoft won't ever implement .NET on other platforms than Win32.
    They'll just improve Win32 and their implementation of .NET.

    >
    > >something more:
    > >portability is usually the strongest argument in favor of Java, but, imo,
    > >except for the desktop apps, portability is pretty much irrelevant.

    > Then you must not be doing server-side stuff. Because it highly matters
    > there.
    >


    Except for porting legacy applications to newer systems (hw or sw), I can
    see no reason to say portability matters for server-side apps. Do you move
    your apps from one server to another on a regular basis?

    > >And
    > >desktop apps is exactly the place where Sun has nothing to say at this
    > >moment.

    > So. Ignore them on this matter and use another Java GUI API.
    >


    Well, since .NET is just a copy of Java <g>, I'll stick to .NET for now.

    Best regards,
    Ovidiu Platon.



  10. #70
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "Rob Abbe" <rabbe@mn.rr.com> wrote in message news:3d8f298e$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > Ovidiu,
    >
    > You may have bought too much in to they hype around .Net. You seem to

    base
    > most of your assumptions on the continued success of the Windows desktop.
    > Java is more than adequate on the Desktop for business solutions, but I
    > think you need to open your eyes to the larger picture. Computers are

    getting
    > smaller and more specialized everyday. Everyday, Windows becomes a little
    > less relevant than it was the day before. End to End solutions need to

    look
    > past the desktop, from the largest computers to the smallest. This is

    where
    > the beauty of Java can be seen.
    >


    ..NET Framework + .NET Compact Framewok > J2EE + J2SE + J2ME
    Trust me on this one.

    > Consider this, I can run the Same Pac-Man game on my Sprint PCS phone, My
    > PDA and My desk top. What has made this possible? Java technology.
    >
    > Until now, everytime a new video game system was released, you would have
    > to throw away all your old games. If video game vendors standardize on

    Java,
    > you're old games will be able to take advantage of the new hardware

    without
    > being recompiled. This is very cool indeed.
    >


    As cool as an XBox ?

    Best regards,
    Ovidiu.



  11. #71
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    ">Here's hoping that some kind soul will donate/subsidise a Windows XP l&f
    >for Java-the-platform, before the next 3D rendering, ink and speech
    >recognising, web service remoting, UI hits the streets. ;^)


    Will this do? http://javootoo.l2fprod.com/plaf/skinlf/index.php

  12. #72
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    "Ovidiu Platon" <ovidiupl@microsoft-lab.pub.ro> wrote:
    >"MarkN" <m@N.com> wrote in message news:3d8f216b$1@10.1.10.29...
    >>
    >> They are doing their best to blow this. The economy and world opinion

    are
    >> working to change it too. The fact that MS is in control is a reason

    to
    >> not do .Net.

    >
    >So, your message is "Whatever you do, don't write code for M$ platforms",
    >right? Well, I don't know whether this helps Java in any way: instead of
    >pointing out its advantages, you do something known to us as "M$ bashing"
    >:-)) Some arguments...


    Your's are wonderful too. (like - "X > Y - trust me"). The point was not
    that MS specifically was in control. But that a single minded, single company
    that crushes all inovation but their own is in 100% control of the OS and
    the development platform that you want to develop specifically for and with.
    I do write code for the Windows Platform. And at the same time Linux and
    Mac and ... .


    >
    >> Also, Most desktop apps (business ones) require some server-side
    >> code where MS doesn't rule. So for apps like this .Net is not the best

    >choice
    >> for the desktop side.
    >>

    >
    >That's what the Web Services are all about....

    Supposedly. It is better than some things but worse than others. How are
    exceptions handled? Transactions? Duplicate code? Web services, while
    cool, are at best a second tier integration technique.

    >
    >> >If the Mono/Rotor things get past the beta phase, you'll also have
    >> >portability,

    >>
    >> Allegedly. Looking at MS's past and that Windows and having everything

    >run
    >> on it is of utmost importance the the survival of their company - don't

    >bet
    >> on it.
    >>

    >
    >I don't. Microsoft won't ever implement .NET on other platforms than Win32.
    >They'll just improve Win32 and their implementation of .NET.

    Yep. And change it so other implementions won't work without work. Unfortunately
    the future is not Windows.

    >
    >>
    >> >something more:
    >> >portability is usually the strongest argument in favor of Java, but,

    imo,
    >> >except for the desktop apps, portability is pretty much irrelevant.

    >> Then you must not be doing server-side stuff. Because it highly matters
    >> there.
    >>

    >
    >Except for porting legacy applications to newer systems (hw or sw), I can
    >see no reason to say portability matters for server-side apps. Do you move
    >your apps from one server to another on a regular basis?


    From a physical server? Yes. Vendor? Not on my current project. But other
    platforms are being considered and Java is being used on two other server
    platforms other than ours within the organization (Total of three). It would
    be irresponsibible for us not give the company choice since that choice does
    exist. You, like most are stuck with 'are you'. The real issue is 'can
    you'. That gives you leverage. And in this economy you need it. A single
    use tool is worth less than a multiple use one.

    >
    >> >And
    >> >desktop apps is exactly the place where Sun has nothing to say at this
    >> >moment.

    >> So. Ignore them on this matter and use another Java GUI API.
    >>

    >
    >Well, since .NET is just a copy of Java <g>, I'll stick to .NET for now.

    Should have used a better copier. <G><G>





  13. #73
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?



    >Brad, I respect your opinion, and can tell that you are a Java advocate,

    which
    >is great. It was a pleasure responding! ;-)


    I could tell he was by reading his article. And that he is now the DevX
    Section Leader for Java.

  14. #74
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d903f72$1@10.1.10.29...
    > >
    > >That's what the Web Services are all about....

    > Supposedly. It is better than some things but worse than others. How are
    > exceptions handled? Transactions? Duplicate code? Web services, while
    > cool, are at best a second tier integration technique.
    >


    Exceptions are transparently caught on the server, converted to SOAP,
    decoded on the client and rethrown. Transactions? Not yet, afaik. Duplicate
    code? ???

    > >
    > >> >If the Mono/Rotor things get past the beta phase, you'll also have
    > >> >portability,
    > >>
    > >> Allegedly. Looking at MS's past and that Windows and having everything

    > >run
    > >> on it is of utmost importance the the survival of their company - don't

    > >bet
    > >> on it.
    > >>

    > >
    > >I don't. Microsoft won't ever implement .NET on other platforms than

    Win32.
    > >They'll just improve Win32 and their implementation of .NET.

    > Yep. And change it so other implementions won't work without work.

    Unfortunately
    > the future is not Windows.
    >


    ".NET = implementation; Java = specification" I've seen this several times.
    Well...
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/ecma/ or http://www.ecma.ch/

    > >
    > >> >And
    > >> >desktop apps is exactly the place where Sun has nothing to say at this
    > >> >moment.
    > >> So. Ignore them on this matter and use another Java GUI API.
    > >>

    > >
    > >Well, since .NET is just a copy of Java <g>, I'll stick to .NET for now.

    > Should have used a better copier. <G><G>
    >


    What for? The "copy" they got works better than the original :-)

    Best regards,
    Ovidiu.



  15. #75
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    "Ovidiu Platon" <ovidiupl@microsoft-lab.pub.ro> wrote:
    >"MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote in message news:3d903f72$1@10.1.10.29...
    >> >
    >> >That's what the Web Services are all about....

    >> Supposedly. It is better than some things but worse than others. How

    are
    >> exceptions handled? Transactions? Duplicate code? Web services, while
    >> cool, are at best a second tier integration technique.
    >>

    >


    >Exceptions are transparently caught on the server, converted to SOAP,
    >decoded on the client and rethrown.

    Not between different platforms. In .Net you don't even know what exceptions
    can be thrown unless they are documented.

    >Transactions? Not yet, afaik.


    >Duplicate code? ???

    Server - Java - Person class in Java
    Client - .Net - Person class in C#

    >
    >> >
    >> >> >If the Mono/Rotor things get past the beta phase, you'll also have
    >> >> >portability,
    >> >>
    >> >> Allegedly. Looking at MS's past and that Windows and having everything
    >> >run
    >> >> on it is of utmost importance the the survival of their company - don't
    >> >bet
    >> >> on it.
    >> >>
    >> >
    >> >I don't. Microsoft won't ever implement .NET on other platforms than

    >Win32.
    >> >They'll just improve Win32 and their implementation of .NET.

    >> Yep. And change it so other implementions won't work without work.

    >Unfortunately
    >> the future is not Windows.
    >>

    >
    >".NET = implementation; Java = specification" I've seen this several times.
    >Well...
    >http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/ecma/ or http://www.ecma.ch/


    You should read interviews with the head of Mono. He's not sure MS.Net will
    work with Mono.Net. Not with out conversions.

    >
    >> >
    >> >> >And
    >> >> >desktop apps is exactly the place where Sun has nothing to say at

    this
    >> >> >moment.
    >> >> So. Ignore them on this matter and use another Java GUI API.
    >> >>
    >> >
    >> >Well, since .NET is just a copy of Java <g>, I'll stick to .NET for now.

    >> Should have used a better copier. <G><G>
    >>

    >
    >What for? The "copy" they got works better than the original :-)


    I guess. .Net is a good tool with its own set of problems. But if you take
    it as a whole and see the big picture - it isn't better.

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