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  1. #76
    Brad O'Hearne Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    Hello David, BradO here...we meet again in this thread! :-)

    "David Bayley" <dbayley@spamless.aebacus.com> wrote in message
    > Ovidiu's criticisms have been sound. The essential point is that a .NET
    > developer can provide better solutions to Windows users than a Java
    > developer.

    No application is inherently superior just because of the platform. Poor
    applications can be architected on any platform. But even if the assumption
    was exceptional architecture, I don't believe you can back this statement
    up. I don't think anyone can make this kind of statement either pro-.NET or
    pro-Java. .NET has one advantage over Java on Windows: native OS calls.

    > I don't care how much time you saved developing to the lowest common
    > denominator. Me, Joe Gamer, is only going to pay for the best game my
    > hardware can drive.

    "Joe Gamer" doesn't have the ability to have the best hardware always that
    money can buy. You are assuming this is the average case -- it isn't. And
    to stay on topic, this isn't the case with other applications either.
    Portability is a real need, and enterprises should be able to leverage their
    existing hardware.

    > As for the relatively trivial business apps, declaritive XML provides
    > much better platform-independence than Java.

    XML provides no platform independence in and of itself. XML is simply a
    markup format. Without a parser, and an application/runtime to make it do
    something, XML is just another text file.



    Brad O'Hearne
    DevX Section Leader

  2. #77
    Brad O'Hearne Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    Phil, BradO here, comments below:

    "Phil Weber" <pweber@nospam.fawcette.com> wrote in message
    > Brad, I respect your opinion, and can tell that you are a Java advocate,

    > is great. It was a pleasure responding! ;-)
    > --
    > Phil Weber

    Haha, touche'! Good comeback. Yes I am a Java advocate, and I prefer the
    Java platform because as a platform I think it is the best all-around choice
    for development. However, as a developer I firmly believe in choosing the
    best tool for the particular project you are working on, and in some cases,
    the best choice is Microsoft technology. So I think both are viable
    technology platforms.

    Brad O'Hearne
    DevX Section Leader

  3. #78
    Brad O'Hearne Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    Hey Ovidiu, BradO here.

    "Ovidiu Platon" <ovidiupl@microsoft-lab.pub.ro> wrote in message
    > Except for porting legacy applications to newer systems (hw or sw), I can
    > see no reason to say portability matters for server-side apps. Do you move
    > your apps from one server to another on a regular basis?

    The need for portability is not necessarily to move regularly (although that
    is one scenrio). A single platform change can justify it, as one platform
    change can cost an enterprise millions of dollars. Also, there can be many
    different flavors of platform change -- full-or partial, accomodating legacy
    systems, etc.


  4. #79
    Ovidiu Platon Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "MarkN" <m@N.com> wrote in message news:3d9087e2$1@
    > Server - Java - Person class in Java
    > Client - .Net - Person class in C#

    Client - .Net - Person proxy class in C#
    No code is duplicated, except for the public member signatures.

    Best regards,

  5. #80
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "Ovidiu Platon" <ovidiupl@microsoft-lab.pub.ro> wrote:
    >"MarkN" <m@N.com> wrote in message news:3d9087e2$1@
    >> Server - Java - Person class in Java
    >> Client - .Net - Person class in C#

    >Client - .Net - Person proxy class in C#
    >No code is duplicated, except for the public member signatures.

    In the case I am describing you can't use a proxy.

    PersonManager.getPerson(int id);

    This returns a Person object. The PersonMangager will be a proxy object.
    But the Person object will have to be a real class. It can be via interface
    but the client must have access a concrete implementation.

  6. #81
    Rob Abbe Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?


    Very impressive reply. I read it twice I was so impressed


  7. #82
    Rob Abbe Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "Jon" <XJAVA@XJAVA.BROKE> wrote:
    >Oh but it has been a Java Killer !!! Thats why everyone is looking for

    >developers !! No one wants to do it anymore !!!
    >Jeeeez ..

    Oh is that it? Everyone must want to do it or Microsoft wouldn't have dropped
    the COM/ActiveX development tools in favor of a Windows only Java Clone.

    Java was the undoing of "Classic" Visual Basic.

  8. #83
    Jason Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    Mike Mitchell <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    >On 11 Sep 2002 18:18:30 -0700, "Uwe W. Radu" <uradu@cdc.net> wrote:
    >Can't the exact same criticism be levelled at .Net also? Surely the
    >CLR is very similar to the JVM? And I've heard elsewhere that VB.Net
    >apps are very lethargic compared with natively-compiled VB6 ones. The
    >IDE as well.

    Please take Mike's post with a grain of salt. Several grains. A truckload.
    Mike has not used .NET, though he frequently criticises it harshly because
    it does not provide backward compatibility with VB6. VB.NET apps are just
    as fast as VB6 apps. The IDE is bigger, much bigger, than the VB6 IDE, and
    thus requires a more substantial computer to run. If you have enough RAM,
    the speed of the IDE is just about the same for VB6 and .NET.

  9. #84
    Jason Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    I think the article was off on a lot of points. Let me preface this by saying
    that I LIKE JAVA alot, and use it regularly for writing server-side software.
    And I hate the fact that Sun won't get their act together and at least TRY
    to compete with .NET on the client.

    But, in my humble opinion, marketing Swing as the next big thing is not going
    to solve the fundamental technical problems that make people CRINGE whenever
    they hear "client" and "Java" in the same sentence.

    #1: Quit making excuses for the sluggishness of Swing. It needs to be fixed,
    or Swing will remain inferior to native OS applications.

    #2: Quit making excuses for the mammoth amount of memory Swing apps take.
    This also needs to be fixed.

    #3: StarOffice is not 100% Java. It is mostly C++. Right? So don't go
    telling me you are going to replace Microsoft Office with a Java app. Not
    until the GUI tools are much enhanced.

    #4: Java is still missing all sorts of little things that would make life
    much easier when targeting a Windows box:
    A: How much space do I have left on my current drive?
    B: Rudimentary registry access without JNI.
    C: It will NEVER, NEVER look and feel like a Windows app
    until Java supports a native GUI engine.

    #5: The object model is just too darn difficult. Better than AWT, but take
    a look at the .NET object model. Events were not an afterthought. Performance
    was not an afterthought. You don't need umpteen billion objects just to
    do some simple task. Everything jives with Windows programming.

    In my opinion, Sun needs to really concentrate on the client. But, instead
    of pushing Swing, they need to either revamp Swing or start from scratch.

    Can't revamp Swing? Are you telling me that Sun can't do a better job with
    taking advantage of graphics accelerators in the native code? Sun can't
    use native dialog boxes and windowing constructs rather than writing everything
    from scratch?

    Or maybe they should just adopt something like SWT as the new standard for
    clients, and spend a lot of time over the next couple of years making it
    an industrial strength GUI toolkit.

    But stop making excuses for Swing. With tremendous effort, you can make
    halfway decent apps with Swing. Big deal. With minimal effort, I can make
    superior-looking, high-performing, native apps with .NET. And all my customers
    use Windows as their client, every last one of them. Without exception.
    And they aren't planning to change that. SO I DON'T CARE IF THE .NET GUI

    If Java is going to compete with .NET on the client, then Sun needs to make
    several major changes, and anything less than that will fall short. If Sun
    had done a better job a few years back, we might accept slightly less than
    perfect GUIs from Java. But Java never established itself on the client,
    and now Microsoft has raised the bar from VB6 to .NET. If Sun does not find
    a way to one-up Microsoft, then they have already lost the battle for the

  10. #85
    Jason Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "MarkN" <m@N.com> wrote:
    >They are doing their best to blow this. The economy and world opinion are
    >working to change it too. The fact that MS is in control is a reason to
    >not do .Net. Also, Most desktop apps (business ones) require some server-side
    >code where MS doesn't rule. So for apps like this .Net is not the best

    >for the desktop side.

    Just to get this straight - C# and the .NET framework are open standards
    governed by ECMA. Microsoft has a lot of say in the standard, but they are
    not the governing body.

    Java, as a standard, is wholly owned and controlled by Sun. They have turned
    down the opportunity to submit Java to an open standards body. I believe
    this has been detrimental to Java, resulting in delays of XML support, lack
    of support for COM, and lack of support for better client libraries for Windows.
    These are all Microsoft/IBM initiatives that Sun refused to participate
    in because they want to control the platform.

    Come on, would it hurt so much to support COM the way CORBA is supported?
    Hmmm? It sure would have made my life a lot easier over the past several

    >Allegedly. Looking at MS's past and that Windows and having everything

    >on it is of utmost importance the the survival of their company - don't

    >on it.

    Microsoft recently released an OPEN SOURCE version of .NET that runs on FREE
    BSD, as well as XP. It is considered an early beta, but it is clear that
    they are aiming this squarely at Unix. It does not have all the Windows-specific
    hooks in it, but then how many server-side Java programs written for Unix
    are based on Swing?

    .NET will run on Unix, in a production product, within 18 months.

    >>portability is usually the strongest argument in favor of Java, but, imo,
    >>except for the desktop apps, portability is pretty much irrelevant.

    >Then you must not be doing server-side stuff. Because it highly matters

    Like I was just saying... :-)

    >>desktop apps is exactly the place where Sun has nothing to say at this

    >So. Ignore them on this matter and use another Java GUI API.

    How many Java GUI APIs do I need? How many are supported by Sun, so I know
    they will still be supported in 10 years? How do I find programmers who
    have experience with all these APIs? Why are these APIs so much more difficult
    to develop with and maintain than the .NET APIs?

    If Sun wants to compete with Microsoft on the desktop, the equation is simple.
    They need to make desktop application development in Java (1)as simple as
    possible and (2)as powerful as possible.

    IMHO, they have failed at both. Not miserably, but it's still a pretty solid

  11. #86
    Jason Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "Ovidiu Platon" <ovidiupl@microsoft-lab.pub.ro> wrote:
    >I don't. Microsoft won't ever implement .NET on other platforms than Win32.
    >They'll just improve Win32 and their implementation of .NET.

    I believe they WILL implement .NET for other platforms. They have spent
    an awful lot of money developing the open source .NET platform. I don't
    think they did this just for political reasons. I think they want to take
    some of the development on server systems away from Sun, and they know they
    can't remove Unix everywhere.

    Plus, once your application is written in .NET, why are you using that overpriced,
    underpowered Sun box again? Why not spend a couple of thousand and get a
    better, faster, cheaper Dell or Compaq server? Easier to administer too!

    Microsoft is seeing a lot of things differently these days...

    >Except for porting legacy applications to newer systems (hw or sw), I can
    >see no reason to say portability matters for server-side apps. Do you move
    >your apps from one server to another on a regular basis?

    I have a strong argument for portability. I am a contractor, and thus I
    do coding for a lot of different customers. Some of them use Unix, either
    Solaris or HPUX. More than half run their servers on Windows.

    Unix shops want to run their apps on Unix boxes. Windows shops want to run
    their apps on Windows boxes. I don't want to have to write frameworks in
    different languages just to support different operating systems. So right
    now, the majority of my coding for the server is in Java. Java runs great
    on Windows servers (better and more reliable than on Unix, in my experience).
    It does the kinds of things I need it to do. And when I need to borrow
    a framework from a previous job, I know it will work on my client's operating
    system of choice.

    I am really hoping that one day I can use .NET for this instead of Java,
    since it would be easier to hook up remoting between .NET client and server
    components than with .NET client and Java server components.

    And quite frankly, I do not believe that Java GUIs will ever be good enough
    to pass for real Windows applications. And since they don't support COM,
    I can't easily plug them in to heavy client applications (shrink-wrap) that
    my customers want me to customize for them.

    I have sort of a love-hate relationship with Java... ;-)

  12. #87
    Jason Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "MarkN" <m@N.com> wrote:
    >Not between different platforms. In .Net you don't even know what exceptions
    >can be thrown unless they are documented.

    Neither do you know in Java. RuntimeException. I rest my case. :-)

  13. #88
    Jason Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "Brad O'Hearne" <brado@neurofire.com> wrote:
    >My purpose isn't to get into a trivial back-and-forth, though many consider
    >having to boot your OS once a day a bad thing (and we both know that any
    >heavy duty usage usually means more than one boot a day on Windows), but
    >that is not really the issue...

    It is time you upgraded from Windows 98 then, or you need to quit buying
    no-name mobos with VIA chipsets. I use Windows XP and Windows 2000 for development.
    I routinely kick the living crud out of my machines with the things I do
    to them. I rarely have to reboot any of my machines. Maybe once a month.
    Maybe. Well, except when I install new software, but even then I only have
    to reboot about half the time.

    Sounds like you haven't used a "real" version of Windows in a while.

  14. #89
    Jason Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "MarkN" <m@N.com> wrote:
    >> Basic (MS, why not?) philosophy: go where the money is...

    >That is my point. Why not target a wider (and future) audience?

    If you develop an app that is visibly inferior to a VB6 app, with lots of
    little funny behaviors that no one can explain, why is your customer going
    to prefer that over something that looks good and performs as expected?

    Customers don't care what is under the hood. They want features, reliability,
    and performance. If you can deliver a sexy car with 300HP that gets 75MPG,
    they are going to be happy. If you give them a Yugo, they won't like it
    no matter how much you explain that it runs well in both European countries
    and North America (weak allusion to multi-platform).

    What happens when you tell your customer that the Yugo they are paying for
    is twice as expensive as the cool sports car they could have gotten? .NET
    apps are easier to write than Java apps, for GUIs at least.

    Most apps I have seen written in VB, even by novices, look reasonably good
    to the end users. Most GUI apps I have seen written in Java, even by very
    experienced Java programmers, looked and felt inferior to native Windows
    programs, and had weird intermittent behaviors that no one could seem to
    explain or fix. The worst Java programs I have seen are just horrible, and
    at least one of these was packaged and shipped as part of the Java SDK.
    Better in the latest version, but still...

    So why the heck should I believe that Java has a future on the client? .NET
    GUIs are here, and solid. Java GUIs are very slowly getting a little better
    here and there (the bug list is smaller these days, but Sun is still working
    too slowly), but the phrase "too little, too late" comes to mind.

    I use Java regularly for server-side stuff. Using .NET and Java side by
    side for GUI development, I would not even consider trying to shove one of
    these Java client applications down my customer's throats.

    Customers care about performance, reliability, and features. My reputation
    rests on being able to deliver that to them. When faced with a choice of
    ,NET or Java, it's .NET. When faced with a choice of VB6 or Java, it's VB6.
    The GUIs are more responsive, and look like Windows apps. The dialogs are
    standard to the operating system, not some half-baked copy. The windows
    paint faster. They behave like Window's windows are supposed to behave.
    The controls all look and feel like in every other application in Windows.

    I don't know what the future holds, exactly, but I do know this: it ain't
    going to be dominated by Swing-based applications. Not if people continue
    to use Windows.

  15. #90
    Jason Guest

    Re: Has Sun Given Up on the Desktop?

    "MarkN" <m@n.com> wrote:
    >It kills me when people say Java is slow. Java is being used where speed
    >is important like the financial arena.

    Right. Java is not all that slow. It is maybe a factor of 25% to 50% slower
    than C++ if coded correctly (except for raw pointer manipulations, where
    bounds checking kills performance in Java for large arrays - graphics manipulations).

    For applications in the financial arena, you would prefer Java heavily over
    C++ because you don't have memory leaks, corrupt pointers, etc., which makes
    your app much more stable and trustworthy.

    And for these apps, if you have a problem with speed, you throw more hardware
    at the problem. 50% is easily overcome by just upgrading your servers, or
    adding more servers.

    However, many of the libraries I have seen recently use an undue amount of
    object-orientation. Have you read a stack trace from an exception in J2EE
    or TomCat? 40, 50 levels deep sometimes. Any language asked to run this
    type of architecture would suffer performance problems.

    BOTTOM LINE: If your goal is to make the prettiest UML graphs, your application
    is probably going to be slow. If you spend a little time up front designing
    for performance, your Java app is probably going to be quite speedy!

    The HotSpot compiler is a lot faster than the interpreted version of Java
    was, though there is still some room for improvement (I hear that IBM's JVM
    is significantly faster than Sun's latest JVM).

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