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Thread: strPtr()?

  1. #46
    Michael \(michka\) Kaplan Guest

    Re: strPtr()?

    Thank you for putting this in much more understandable terms. I agree with
    every word and maybe now people will not think me such an ogre. :-)

    --
    MichKa
    "Cause it's a bittersweet symphony, thats life..." -- The Verve

    random junk of dubious value, at the multilingual,
    no scripts required, http://www.trigeminal.com/

    "Phil Weber" <pweber@teleport.com> wrote in message
    news:39085d14$1@news.devx.com...
    > > At first it does seem nice to only have one uber-NNTP
    > > server that everybody uses, instead of DevX and msnews.
    > > But variety is good. It's better for people to have options
    > > when they want to discuss Visual Basic or anything else.
    > > I think there is a different vibe to DevX and msnews, and
    > > often one offers information that isn't on the other.

    >
    > Matthew: It would have been considerate of the fact that many people
    > frequent both servers if he had posted his question at one site, waited a
    > day or so to see if it was answered, then posted at the other if it was

    not.
    > We can't make a rule requiring that people be considerate, but Michael is
    > free to not help those he considers rude.
    >
    > The key is that this is a *community,* and if an individual puts his or

    her
    > personal convenience ahead of the good of the community, s/he can expect

    to
    > receive a negative reaction. Posting the same question to multiple

    locations
    > simultaneously is the equivalent (to me, at least) of parking in a
    > handicapped space: it may seem like a small thing and perhaps nobody gets
    > hurt, but it has the potential to cause well-meaning people significant
    > inconvenience, if they waste time answering a question in one location

    only
    > to find that it was previously answered elsewhere. That time could have

    been
    > spent helping someone whose question hadn't been answered. It's all about
    > thinking about other people before oneself.
    > ---
    > Phil Weber
    >
    >




  2. #47
    Michael \(michka\) Kaplan Guest

    Re: strPtr()?

    Thank you for putting this in much more understandable terms. I agree with
    every word and maybe now people will not think me such an ogre. :-)

    --
    MichKa
    "Cause it's a bittersweet symphony, thats life..." -- The Verve

    random junk of dubious value, at the multilingual,
    no scripts required, http://www.trigeminal.com/

    "Phil Weber" <pweber@teleport.com> wrote in message
    news:39085d14$1@news.devx.com...
    > > At first it does seem nice to only have one uber-NNTP
    > > server that everybody uses, instead of DevX and msnews.
    > > But variety is good. It's better for people to have options
    > > when they want to discuss Visual Basic or anything else.
    > > I think there is a different vibe to DevX and msnews, and
    > > often one offers information that isn't on the other.

    >
    > Matthew: It would have been considerate of the fact that many people
    > frequent both servers if he had posted his question at one site, waited a
    > day or so to see if it was answered, then posted at the other if it was

    not.
    > We can't make a rule requiring that people be considerate, but Michael is
    > free to not help those he considers rude.
    >
    > The key is that this is a *community,* and if an individual puts his or

    her
    > personal convenience ahead of the good of the community, s/he can expect

    to
    > receive a negative reaction. Posting the same question to multiple

    locations
    > simultaneously is the equivalent (to me, at least) of parking in a
    > handicapped space: it may seem like a small thing and perhaps nobody gets
    > hurt, but it has the potential to cause well-meaning people significant
    > inconvenience, if they waste time answering a question in one location

    only
    > to find that it was previously answered elsewhere. That time could have

    been
    > spent helping someone whose question hadn't been answered. It's all about
    > thinking about other people before oneself.
    > ---
    > Phil Weber
    >
    >




  3. #48
    Michael \(michka\) Kaplan Guest

    Re: strPtr()?

    Matthew,

    See Phil's comments for an excellent clarification of my feeling here.

    My point about spam was that people who DO spam newsgroups use the exact
    same arguments.... and when you find yourself making such arguments, you
    shoiuld consider whether you are doing the same sort of thing, just to a
    lesser degree.

    Is it nice that a person is being more considerate than a true spam artist,
    but less considerate than the "polite" person that Phil's post describes?
    Sure. Would it be nicer if they were closer to Phil's post? Of course. And
    is it reasonable for anyone to decide not to help people who do not show the
    consideration? Or course.


    --
    MichKa
    "Cause it's a bittersweet symphony, thats life..." -- The Verve

    random junk of dubious value, at the multilingual,
    no scripts required, http://www.trigeminal.com/

    "Matthew Solnit" <msolnit@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:39083b61@news.devx.com...
    > I don't think your comparison to spam is fair. John wasn't posting to
    > groups where his question was off-topic. They are two separate places to
    > discuss the same thing. There are several other VB forums at web sites

    like
    > CodeGuru. Should he avoid these as well, because it would be easier if
    > everybody just picked one?
    >
    > At first it does seem nice to only have one uber-NNTP server that

    everybody
    > uses, instead of DevX and MSNews. But variety is good. It's better for
    > people to have options when they want to discuss Visual Basic or anything
    > else. I think there is a different vibe to DevX and MSNews, and often one
    > offers information that isn't on the other.
    >
    > -- Matthew Solnit
    > msolnit@yahoo.com
    >
    > "Michael (michka) Kaplan" <former_mvp@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com>

    wrote
    > in message news:39082203$1@news.devx.com...
    > > Fine Jon.
    > >
    > > I will be filtering all your posts in the future. Others will do so as

    > well,
    > > they will just not mention it. But the fact that you have absolutely no
    > > interest in the fact that many people do look at both servers and the

    fact
    > > that every argument you use below are the SAME rationalizations that

    > people
    > > use when they post SPAM to multiple sites should be your clue that you

    are
    > > doing something that is more than just a tad inappropriate.

    >
    >




  4. #49
    Michael \(michka\) Kaplan Guest

    Re: strPtr()?

    Matthew,

    See Phil's comments for an excellent clarification of my feeling here.

    My point about spam was that people who DO spam newsgroups use the exact
    same arguments.... and when you find yourself making such arguments, you
    shoiuld consider whether you are doing the same sort of thing, just to a
    lesser degree.

    Is it nice that a person is being more considerate than a true spam artist,
    but less considerate than the "polite" person that Phil's post describes?
    Sure. Would it be nicer if they were closer to Phil's post? Of course. And
    is it reasonable for anyone to decide not to help people who do not show the
    consideration? Or course.


    --
    MichKa
    "Cause it's a bittersweet symphony, thats life..." -- The Verve

    random junk of dubious value, at the multilingual,
    no scripts required, http://www.trigeminal.com/

    "Matthew Solnit" <msolnit@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:39083b61@news.devx.com...
    > I don't think your comparison to spam is fair. John wasn't posting to
    > groups where his question was off-topic. They are two separate places to
    > discuss the same thing. There are several other VB forums at web sites

    like
    > CodeGuru. Should he avoid these as well, because it would be easier if
    > everybody just picked one?
    >
    > At first it does seem nice to only have one uber-NNTP server that

    everybody
    > uses, instead of DevX and MSNews. But variety is good. It's better for
    > people to have options when they want to discuss Visual Basic or anything
    > else. I think there is a different vibe to DevX and MSNews, and often one
    > offers information that isn't on the other.
    >
    > -- Matthew Solnit
    > msolnit@yahoo.com
    >
    > "Michael (michka) Kaplan" <former_mvp@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com>

    wrote
    > in message news:39082203$1@news.devx.com...
    > > Fine Jon.
    > >
    > > I will be filtering all your posts in the future. Others will do so as

    > well,
    > > they will just not mention it. But the fact that you have absolutely no
    > > interest in the fact that many people do look at both servers and the

    fact
    > > that every argument you use below are the SAME rationalizations that

    > people
    > > use when they post SPAM to multiple sites should be your clue that you

    are
    > > doing something that is more than just a tad inappropriate.

    >
    >




  5. #50
    Anthony Jones Guest

    Re: strPtr()?

    >It's all about thinking about other people before oneself.

    A fine suggestion! If such a principle were applied globally the world
    would be a much better place. I seem to remember some suggesting it
    before, something like 2000 years ago, unfortunately the message didn't go
    down too well with general populace at that time either. :-(

    Sorry, just slightly off the API topic.

    --
    Anthony Jones
    Secta Group Ltd
    AnthonyWJones@msn.com



  6. #51
    Anthony Jones Guest

    Re: strPtr()?

    >It's all about thinking about other people before oneself.

    A fine suggestion! If such a principle were applied globally the world
    would be a much better place. I seem to remember some suggesting it
    before, something like 2000 years ago, unfortunately the message didn't go
    down too well with general populace at that time either. :-(

    Sorry, just slightly off the API topic.

    --
    Anthony Jones
    Secta Group Ltd
    AnthonyWJones@msn.com



  7. #52
    Matthew Solnit Guest

    Re: strPtr()?

    I agree with what's been said. Phil is right that a 1-2 day wait would have
    been more appropriate. I guess I never thought about how many people
    actually use both servers, even though it's fairly obvious from the headers.

    This is probably going overboard, but I did recently post to vb.oop and to
    microsoft.public.vb.com at the same time, and I would like to apologize. I
    won't do that again. Now, how come nobody responded goldangit?

    -- Matthew Solnit
    msolnit@yahoo.com

    P.S. Phil, how come you changed "MSNews" to "msnews" when you quoted me?

    "Michael (michka) Kaplan" <former_mvp@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com> wrote
    in message news:39091afe$1@news.devx.com...
    > Thank you for putting this in much more understandable terms. I agree with
    > every word and maybe now people will not think me such an ogre. :-)
    >
    > --
    > MichKa
    >
    > "Phil Weber" <pweber@teleport.com> wrote in message
    > news:39085d14$1@news.devx.com...
    > > > At first it does seem nice to only have one uber-NNTP
    > > > server that everybody uses, instead of DevX and msnews.
    > > > But variety is good. It's better for people to have options
    > > > when they want to discuss Visual Basic or anything else.
    > > > I think there is a different vibe to DevX and msnews, and
    > > > often one offers information that isn't on the other.

    > >
    > > Matthew: It would have been considerate of the fact that many people
    > > frequent both servers if he had posted his question at one site, waited

    a
    > > day or so to see if it was answered, then posted at the other if it was

    > not.
    > > We can't make a rule requiring that people be considerate, but Michael

    is
    > > free to not help those he considers rude.
    > >
    > > The key is that this is a *community,* and if an individual puts his or

    > her
    > > personal convenience ahead of the good of the community, s/he can expect

    > to
    > > receive a negative reaction. Posting the same question to multiple

    > locations
    > > simultaneously is the equivalent (to me, at least) of parking in a
    > > handicapped space: it may seem like a small thing and perhaps nobody

    gets
    > > hurt, but it has the potential to cause well-meaning people significant
    > > inconvenience, if they waste time answering a question in one location

    > only
    > > to find that it was previously answered elsewhere. That time could have

    > been
    > > spent helping someone whose question hadn't been answered. It's all

    about
    > > thinking about other people before oneself.
    > > ---
    > > Phil Weber




  8. #53
    Matthew Solnit Guest

    Re: strPtr()?

    I agree with what's been said. Phil is right that a 1-2 day wait would have
    been more appropriate. I guess I never thought about how many people
    actually use both servers, even though it's fairly obvious from the headers.

    This is probably going overboard, but I did recently post to vb.oop and to
    microsoft.public.vb.com at the same time, and I would like to apologize. I
    won't do that again. Now, how come nobody responded goldangit?

    -- Matthew Solnit
    msolnit@yahoo.com

    P.S. Phil, how come you changed "MSNews" to "msnews" when you quoted me?

    "Michael (michka) Kaplan" <former_mvp@spamfree.trigeminal.nospam.com> wrote
    in message news:39091afe$1@news.devx.com...
    > Thank you for putting this in much more understandable terms. I agree with
    > every word and maybe now people will not think me such an ogre. :-)
    >
    > --
    > MichKa
    >
    > "Phil Weber" <pweber@teleport.com> wrote in message
    > news:39085d14$1@news.devx.com...
    > > > At first it does seem nice to only have one uber-NNTP
    > > > server that everybody uses, instead of DevX and msnews.
    > > > But variety is good. It's better for people to have options
    > > > when they want to discuss Visual Basic or anything else.
    > > > I think there is a different vibe to DevX and msnews, and
    > > > often one offers information that isn't on the other.

    > >
    > > Matthew: It would have been considerate of the fact that many people
    > > frequent both servers if he had posted his question at one site, waited

    a
    > > day or so to see if it was answered, then posted at the other if it was

    > not.
    > > We can't make a rule requiring that people be considerate, but Michael

    is
    > > free to not help those he considers rude.
    > >
    > > The key is that this is a *community,* and if an individual puts his or

    > her
    > > personal convenience ahead of the good of the community, s/he can expect

    > to
    > > receive a negative reaction. Posting the same question to multiple

    > locations
    > > simultaneously is the equivalent (to me, at least) of parking in a
    > > handicapped space: it may seem like a small thing and perhaps nobody

    gets
    > > hurt, but it has the potential to cause well-meaning people significant
    > > inconvenience, if they waste time answering a question in one location

    > only
    > > to find that it was previously answered elsewhere. That time could have

    > been
    > > spent helping someone whose question hadn't been answered. It's all

    about
    > > thinking about other people before oneself.
    > > ---
    > > Phil Weber




  9. #54
    - John of Arc - Guest

    Re: strPtr()?


    Matthew Solnit <msolnit@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:39098b76@news.devx.com...

    ....
    > This is probably going overboard, but I did recently post to vb.oop and to
    > microsoft.public.vb.com at the same time, and I would like to apologize.

    I
    > won't do that again. Now, how come nobody responded goldangit?
    >
    > -- Matthew Solnit
    > msolnit@yahoo.com



    That's the way the way with certain topics and with many newsgroups.
    People are quick to answer the common questions and easy questions, and
    they're quick to attack people.

    Waiting a day two before posting to a second server is a very good idea. I
    will do that in the future.

    Thank you, Matthew Solnit, for approaching the topic with a reasonable
    attitude.

    My reply email address is real one. I is foolish to use a real one (one's
    own, at least) as the primary email address for a news account. Relative
    anonymity is one of the good things about the internet, especially given its
    huge population and the potential for exploitation.

    I don't know if the advice on writing subject lines is generic in nature or
    not. If not, I have never been guilty of posting anything like a like "My
    app crashes on this line when doing this" or, what in my opinion is worse,
    asking people to write code for me (though there are a couple of newsgroups
    that seem very friendly to code-exchange). I prefer to ask for general
    advice on a topic, and pointers to URLs and MSDN Library/Knowledge Base
    article titles and 'Q' numbers, as well as topics in the SDK and posts
    listed on deja and the other news search services.

    The haranguing responses to my explanation of why I double-posted do not
    address the rationale I presented, nor do they address the notion that the
    internet is the last place where legalism, purism, fundamentalism, elitism,
    and conformism should be the norm. My friendly and legitimate response was
    simply written off. If "community" means anything real, then the immediate
    and reactionary attacks on my posts violate the idea of "community". If they
    were friendly suggestions, that would be one thing. If they were open to
    suggestion, as I am apparently supposed to be, that would be one thing. The
    flaming responses to my post might be in order if my explanation had been
    malicious, but it wasn't.

    Newsgroups and email lists bring out the worst and unfriendliest behaviour
    in people, I've noticed.
    Filtering me is pretty reactionary, announcing it on the newsgroup is pretty
    rude.

    I have been participating in newsgroups with the initial attacker for a
    couple of years now, under several different accounts, and I have so far
    been viewed as a normal and helpful participant of newsgroups. Where I have
    known anything on a topic, I have been quick to offer suggestions to
    questions asked. The sudden reaction to a perceived infraction is
    completely un-called-for.

    It's a very strange and rare experience, if you've actually had spammers
    take the time to explain their rationale to you. The name-calling doesn't
    refute my explanation any more than anything else that has been said. If
    you are of the opinion that there should be only one school of thought on
    the topic of newsgroup etiquette, and that school of thought should be your
    own, then we certainly have nothing else to talk about. If it is your aim
    to convince me of your extreme and impractical position (it is extreme and
    impractical when applied to the extreme extent that it is being applied
    here.), you'll have to take a different tack. I see that you are not open
    to re-thinking your opinion on the topic. Given that, I wonder why you
    expect that I should?

    I disagree with the spirit and the attitude of the attacks more than I do
    the idea behind them.
    For those who get religious about the various schools of "netiquette" -
    well, you probably aren't really listening at this point anyway, just typing
    your next flame. I will always disagree with any kind of policy or opinion
    that in effect squelches conversation on newsgroups and has the effect of
    reducing the effectiveness of newsgroups as a vehicle for conversion and the
    sharing of knowledge and ideas.

    "Community" and "government" are two very different things. Government is
    concerned about rules and enforcement and conformity. Community is the
    friendly forum for the participation and interaction of individuals. A real
    community is not interested in attacking and ostracizing, especially over an
    occasional perceived aberration. A real community is not quick to react.
    Community is not about catching infractions. A community does not write off
    a long-time participant over a single disagreement. A real community has a
    helpful attitude. A real community is more interested in the whole organic
    process and its effective outcome than it is on enforcing form.

    I agree that cross-posting is generally a bad idea. Let us note the word
    "generally".
    Rules and understandings should exist and be held for a good reason. They
    should be generally applied toward the end of that reason.
    They should be ignored when they detract from that reason.



  10. #55
    - John of Arc - Guest

    Re: strPtr()?


    Matthew Solnit <msolnit@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:39098b76@news.devx.com...

    ....
    > This is probably going overboard, but I did recently post to vb.oop and to
    > microsoft.public.vb.com at the same time, and I would like to apologize.

    I
    > won't do that again. Now, how come nobody responded goldangit?
    >
    > -- Matthew Solnit
    > msolnit@yahoo.com



    That's the way the way with certain topics and with many newsgroups.
    People are quick to answer the common questions and easy questions, and
    they're quick to attack people.

    Waiting a day two before posting to a second server is a very good idea. I
    will do that in the future.

    Thank you, Matthew Solnit, for approaching the topic with a reasonable
    attitude.

    My reply email address is real one. I is foolish to use a real one (one's
    own, at least) as the primary email address for a news account. Relative
    anonymity is one of the good things about the internet, especially given its
    huge population and the potential for exploitation.

    I don't know if the advice on writing subject lines is generic in nature or
    not. If not, I have never been guilty of posting anything like a like "My
    app crashes on this line when doing this" or, what in my opinion is worse,
    asking people to write code for me (though there are a couple of newsgroups
    that seem very friendly to code-exchange). I prefer to ask for general
    advice on a topic, and pointers to URLs and MSDN Library/Knowledge Base
    article titles and 'Q' numbers, as well as topics in the SDK and posts
    listed on deja and the other news search services.

    The haranguing responses to my explanation of why I double-posted do not
    address the rationale I presented, nor do they address the notion that the
    internet is the last place where legalism, purism, fundamentalism, elitism,
    and conformism should be the norm. My friendly and legitimate response was
    simply written off. If "community" means anything real, then the immediate
    and reactionary attacks on my posts violate the idea of "community". If they
    were friendly suggestions, that would be one thing. If they were open to
    suggestion, as I am apparently supposed to be, that would be one thing. The
    flaming responses to my post might be in order if my explanation had been
    malicious, but it wasn't.

    Newsgroups and email lists bring out the worst and unfriendliest behaviour
    in people, I've noticed.
    Filtering me is pretty reactionary, announcing it on the newsgroup is pretty
    rude.

    I have been participating in newsgroups with the initial attacker for a
    couple of years now, under several different accounts, and I have so far
    been viewed as a normal and helpful participant of newsgroups. Where I have
    known anything on a topic, I have been quick to offer suggestions to
    questions asked. The sudden reaction to a perceived infraction is
    completely un-called-for.

    It's a very strange and rare experience, if you've actually had spammers
    take the time to explain their rationale to you. The name-calling doesn't
    refute my explanation any more than anything else that has been said. If
    you are of the opinion that there should be only one school of thought on
    the topic of newsgroup etiquette, and that school of thought should be your
    own, then we certainly have nothing else to talk about. If it is your aim
    to convince me of your extreme and impractical position (it is extreme and
    impractical when applied to the extreme extent that it is being applied
    here.), you'll have to take a different tack. I see that you are not open
    to re-thinking your opinion on the topic. Given that, I wonder why you
    expect that I should?

    I disagree with the spirit and the attitude of the attacks more than I do
    the idea behind them.
    For those who get religious about the various schools of "netiquette" -
    well, you probably aren't really listening at this point anyway, just typing
    your next flame. I will always disagree with any kind of policy or opinion
    that in effect squelches conversation on newsgroups and has the effect of
    reducing the effectiveness of newsgroups as a vehicle for conversion and the
    sharing of knowledge and ideas.

    "Community" and "government" are two very different things. Government is
    concerned about rules and enforcement and conformity. Community is the
    friendly forum for the participation and interaction of individuals. A real
    community is not interested in attacking and ostracizing, especially over an
    occasional perceived aberration. A real community is not quick to react.
    Community is not about catching infractions. A community does not write off
    a long-time participant over a single disagreement. A real community has a
    helpful attitude. A real community is more interested in the whole organic
    process and its effective outcome than it is on enforcing form.

    I agree that cross-posting is generally a bad idea. Let us note the word
    "generally".
    Rules and understandings should exist and be held for a good reason. They
    should be generally applied toward the end of that reason.
    They should be ignored when they detract from that reason.



  11. #56
    - John of Arc - Guest

    Re: strPtr()?

    correction of a typing error:

    "I disagree with the spirit and the attitude of the attacks more than I do
    the idea behind them.
    For those who get religious about the various schools of "netiquette" -
    well, you probably aren't really listening at this point anyway, just typing
    your next flame. I will always disagree with any kind of policy or opinion
    that in effect squelches conversation on newsgroups and has the effect of
    reducing the effectiveness of newsgroups as a vehicle for conversion and the
    sharing of knowledge and ideas."

    "...conversion and the sharing of knowledge and ideas."

    should have been:


    "...conversation and the sharing of knowledge and ideas."






  12. #57
    - John of Arc - Guest

    Re: strPtr()?

    correction of a typing error:

    "I disagree with the spirit and the attitude of the attacks more than I do
    the idea behind them.
    For those who get religious about the various schools of "netiquette" -
    well, you probably aren't really listening at this point anyway, just typing
    your next flame. I will always disagree with any kind of policy or opinion
    that in effect squelches conversation on newsgroups and has the effect of
    reducing the effectiveness of newsgroups as a vehicle for conversion and the
    sharing of knowledge and ideas."

    "...conversion and the sharing of knowledge and ideas."

    should have been:


    "...conversation and the sharing of knowledge and ideas."






  13. #58
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: strPtr()?

    > Phil, how come you changed "MSNews" to "msnews"
    > when you quoted me?


    Matthew: No reason, really, I just thought it looked better in all
    lower-case.
    ---
    Phil Weber



  14. #59
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: strPtr()?

    > Phil, how come you changed "MSNews" to "msnews"
    > when you quoted me?


    Matthew: No reason, really, I just thought it looked better in all
    lower-case.
    ---
    Phil Weber



  15. #60
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: strPtr()?

    John: I'm curious whether you consider my reply a "haranguing attack." I
    tried to present my point of view in a calm and reasonable fashion.
    ---
    Phil Weber



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