Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB? - Page 2


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Thread: Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

  1. #16
    Patrick Steele Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    In article <3a735a6e@news.devx.com>, jkaczor@acoupleanerds.com says...
    >
    > "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:3a71fed0.47447172@news.devx.com...
    > >
    > > model in VB.NET. You know it yourself. Up to 60% of VB programmers
    > > have never used a single class, for heck's sake, and you're expecting
    > > 'em to suddenly get the message from Microsoft and become OOP zealots?

    >
    > Where did you get that figure?
    >
    > Not that I disagree. Then, if you lump in the crop of "ASP/VBScript"
    > developers
    > never "creating a class" (I would rather say that than "using a class), what
    > does the
    > figure now become?


    I remember reading in one of the VBPJ editorials (within the past 3
    months) that either 40% or 60% (can't remember which -- Mike might be
    correct at 60%) had never used the "class" capability introduced in VB4.
    --
    Patrick Steele
    (psteele@ipdsolution.com)
    Lead Software Architect

  2. #17
    Alessandro Coppo Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    In my consulting (and previously as employee) life here in Italy I have
    determined that less than 10% of VB users use a fair share of VB
    capabilities (e.g. classes, interfaces etc.). All the others are VERY good
    at cut and paste, creating horrendously bloated forms with everything locked
    in and lots of global variables (no classes, no user controls, no multi-tier
    architectures... ehm, better, no architecture at all!).

    I don't know what happens in other countries but surely here 90+% of VB
    users have not the intellectual background (and even less the will to learn)
    to grasp a furiosly OO environment like .NET.

    Alessandro Coppo
    a.coppo@iol.it

    P.S.: I belong to the other 10%... ;-) and I feel NO regret for all the
    people who did not understand in the last 10 years the OOP was to be
    mastered.



  3. #18
    Alessandro Coppo Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    Michael (michka) Kaplan wrote in message <3a7493bc$1@news.devx.com>...
    >And how about SQL Server adoption? :-)



    SQL Server costs a lot of money, so people get it if and only if they cannot
    help it.

    By the way, to explain my previous postings, had MS delivered C# + CLR a
    couple of years ago (when I still trusted them) I would have been enthusiast
    about the whole thing.

    Now, I have been burned too many times to still trust MS. If something comes
    from Redmond, I switch to the I-will-use-it-if-there-are-no-alternatives
    mode which did me good, because in the last 3 years MS brought out (and
    killed) WebForms / DNA / DNA2000 / DCOM / COM+ etc. etc. etc

    Sorry, I work and I need stable platforms to solve my clients needs. This
    does not mean that I am idle: this year I am adding Java to my toolkit and
    almost surely 2002 will be the year of Perl: Yet, I need tools which give me
    time to learn them, master them and use (ammortizing investment) before
    throwing away.

    Given MS past record, there is NO guarantee that they will not ditch .NET in
    2/3 years time if this suits their corporate strategy. I cannot invest time
    (and money) in these conditions.

    Alessandro Coppo
    a.coppo@iol.it

    P.S.: I think that .NET here in Italy will be an TOTAL failure for the
    reasons I gave in my previous post.



  4. #19
    Jonathan Allen Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    > SQL Server costs a lot of money, so people get it if and only if they
    cannot
    > help it.


    But it's kid brother MSDE is free.

    --
    Jonathan Allen






  5. #20
    Sjoerd Verweij Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    Path: news.devx.com!news.devx.com!209.77.70.17
    Xref: news.devx.com vb.dotnet.discussion:16500

    > Some use the acronym "RAD". Whadda I know? <g>


    Not the same thing. Still waiting...




  6. #21
    Sjoerd Verweij Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    > And how about SQL Server adoption? :-)

    Gimme a break. Most small businesses consider copying their .MDB to another
    computer 10 feet away from the operational ones an adequate backup strategy.
    They run VB programs written by one of their employee's brother's neighbor
    (because he's "really good with computers").




  7. #22
    Jonathan Allen Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    That's how I started way back when. Only it was a government sponsored
    health clinic with a yearly budget in the millions.

    In three years, I was able to bring them from Access + VBA to a multi-user
    VB6 / SQL Server 7 solution complete with customizable business logic
    (stored as VBScript in the database). Of course it still exports data in
    Access, FoxPro, DBase, and the other legacy formats required by the
    government. I not only built the system entirely on my own, I had to teach
    myself how to do it along the way.

    The same time, the other departments spent 50K+ trying to keep a Unix kludge
    working. Last I heard, it still doesn't work and the government won't pay
    their bills until it does. The sad part is I could have rewritten the system
    in VB from scratch in about a month.

    If some kid who barely knows VB can build a fully functional enterprise
    system in 3 years, while a dozen Unix experts can't keep a less-functional
    system running, there is only two possible conclusions. Either that kid was
    a genius, or MS has done a **** good job with their tools so far.

    --
    Jonathan Allen


    "Sjoerd Verweij" <nospam.sjoerd@sjoerd.org> wrote in message
    news:3a75e80e@news.devx.com...
    > > And how about SQL Server adoption? :-)

    >
    > Gimme a break. Most small businesses consider copying their .MDB to

    another
    > computer 10 feet away from the operational ones an adequate backup

    strategy.
    > They run VB programs written by one of their employee's brother's neighbor
    > (because he's "really good with computers").
    >
    >
    >




  8. #23
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:11:09 -0800, "Jonathan Allen"
    <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote:

    >> SQL Server costs a lot of money, so people get it if and only if they

    >cannot
    >> help it.

    >
    >But it's kid brother MSDE is free.
    >


    I got a feeling I read somewhere that you're not allowed to do
    anything very much with MSDE - distributing it and suchlike. It is
    really intended as a local, cut-down SQL server for trialling purposes
    and proofs-of-concept.

    MM

  9. #24
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    On Sun, 28 Jan 2001 22:44:33 +0100, "Alessandro Coppo"
    <a.coppo@iol.it> wrote:

    >
    >I don't know what happens in other countries but surely here 90+% of VB
    >users have not the intellectual background (and even less the will to learn)
    >to grasp a furiosly OO environment like .NET.
    >


    And there's the nub of the problem. Purists of the OOP persuasion
    cannot fathom how anyone would want to program differently, and yet
    most programs used to be written in a non-OOP (but perfectly
    structured) manner. And you cannot say that they were all 'broken'
    because they were non-OOP.

    You simply cannot say to two or three million 'casual' VB users,
    "learn how to do it properly with OOP", because they'll just think
    you're weird. "What," they ask, "is the point when all I want to do
    is...[fill in simple requirements here]?"

    Until OOP zealots (and, you have to face it, you know who you are!)
    can stop talking down to the folks who like a simple, easy life and a
    simple, easy way of achieving what they need, the barriers will always
    be up, you will not convince them to change, and Microsoft will lose a
    huge amount of programming users, who will just tell everyone within
    earshot that they had to get out of programming because Microsoft
    changed the language and it isn't easy any longer.

    Don't forget, you can have the ugliest, dirtiest, quickest way
    imaginable of stringing a few functions together and calling it a
    program, but if that impresses an employer or a client, who wants only
    to get some job of work done for a minimum of outlay, then Classic VB
    is just about the only way to achieve that - and that is (painful
    though it may be to some people) how the cookie crumbles in Real Life.

    Okay, so now convince me that OOP is better!

    MM

  10. #25
    Sjoerd Verweij Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    > Don't forget, you can have the ugliest, dirtiest, quickest way
    > imaginable of stringing a few functions together and calling it a
    > program, but if that impresses an employer or a client, who wants only
    > to get some job of work done for a minimum of outlay, then Classic VB
    > is just about the only way to achieve that - and that is (painful
    > though it may be to some people) how the cookie crumbles in Real Life.


    *yawn* Development in VB.NET is just as fast -- if not faster -- than in
    VB6.

    But then again, you wouldn't have a clue about that, now would you?



  11. #26
    Alessandro Coppo Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    MSDE is almost as bulky as SQL Server and scales less than MDB's (just 5
    connections). Only MS could come out with such a bright idea.

    Alessandro Coppo
    a.coppo@iol.it
    www.geocieties.com/alexcoppo/




  12. #27
    Sjoerd Verweij Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    > I got a feeling I read somewhere that you're not allowed to do
    > anything very much with MSDE - distributing it and suchlike.


    *bzzzt* <g>

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/msde/genfaq.asp

    Q: What are the redistribution terms for solutions built using MSDE?
    A: Developers can freely distribute MSDE solutions built with Visual Studio
    6.0 Professional or Enterprise edition development tools, or with Office
    2000 Developer edition. See the End-User License Agreement (EULA) for the
    full distribution and royalty terms.





  13. #28
    Andy Chevin Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    > If some kid who barely knows VB can build a fully functional enterprise
    > system in 3 years, while a dozen Unix experts can't keep a less-functional
    > system running, there is only two possible conclusions. Either that kid

    was
    > a genius, or MS has done a **** good job with their tools so far.


    Only two conclusions?

    First we can discount the genius stuff - it took the kid *3 years* after
    all.
    Second, if it took the kid *3 years*, then it's hardly a good ad for the
    tools.
    Third, the Unix experts weren't.
    Fourth, they were laughing so hard at the amount of time it was taking the
    kid to
    get his system off the ground, they didn't have time to maintain their
    system.

    Andy.

    Oh yeah - there should be a coupla <g>s in there - I think.





  14. #29
    Andy Chevin Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    Mike,

    > Don't forget, you can have the ugliest, dirtiest, quickest way
    > imaginable of stringing a few functions together and calling it a
    > program, but if that impresses an employer or a client, who wants only
    > to get some job of work done for a minimum of outlay, then Classic VB
    > is just about the only way to achieve that - and that is (painful
    > though it may be to some people) how the cookie crumbles in Real Life.


    Mike, please don't stop posting! You've no idea how much you've made me
    laugh!

    >
    > Okay, so now convince me that OOP is better!
    >
    > MM


    What's the point? It would be absolutely no use at all to you!

    BTW, I know how you love contractors - do you have any contract vacancies at
    your place?
    You just gotta get me on there - I sounds like a riot!

    Andy.



  15. #30
    Jonathan Allen Guest

    Re: Will VB hurt .NET? Instead of .NET helping VB?

    You seem to not understand the term "scales".

    MSDE is considered scaleable because you can go from 5 users to dozens just
    by switching to SQL Server. If you need even more users, then you can move
    to SQL Server Enterprise. Since it uses the underlying system, the
    transition is as simple as a backup and a restore.

    Sure Jet can support more than 5 connections, but even at 2 or 3 performance
    is often intolerably slow. And since the limitation is in file I/O, you
    can't just throw more memory and CPUs at it. Then there is the fact that you
    have to kick everybody of the database just so you can compact it, which is
    needed on a daily basis to avoid bloating.

    --
    Jonathan Allen


    "Alessandro Coppo" <a.coppo@iol.it> wrote in message
    news:3a76094b@news.devx.com...
    > MSDE is almost as bulky as SQL Server and scales less than MDB's (just 5
    > connections). Only MS could come out with such a bright idea.
    >
    > Alessandro Coppo
    > a.coppo@iol.it
    > www.geocieties.com/alexcoppo/
    >
    >
    >




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