dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....

[John Butler]

well...while we all postulate on what got left out of Visual Asic 7, or
changed or put in....

Isn't it simply true that the bigger picture is:

Microsoft simply had to come up with something to counteract the whole Java
thang. Having been stopped from joining in (or hijacking, depending on your
mindset) the java movement, they had to frantically invent a new wheel
(spin) and get everyone interested in it. The entire Dotnet platform and
it's "language is irrelevant" stance is surely one huge (PR?) drive to
provide an alternative to Java that will prevent, prinicipally the public
and secondly, us developers, from slowly trudging our way over to
incorporating Java into our way of thinking. In this drive, VB is but a
small (maybe) important pawn, but nevertheless still a small part of a whole
gamble to try and prevent revenues from moving towards to the Sun/Oracle/IBM
et al camp.

....and thus my final therefore: No matter how much we kick and squeal about
Visual Fred, it isn't _that_ relevant, since MS is fighting for its place
as a (the?) dominant software vendor and the overall PR spin of DotNet is
far more important than the individual subset languages. As long as the
world in general gets the impression that MS has a real and tangible (if
flawed/not yet complete) alternative to Java/Linux etc, that *may* be the
most important thing MS is aiming to achieve.

thoughts/flames??

Regards
John Butler

[Mike Mitchell]

On Fri, 2 Feb 2001 01:34:28 -0000, "John Butler"
<jrbutler@btclick.com> wrote:

>...and thus my final therefore: No matter how much we kick and squeal about
>Visual Fred, it isn't _that_ relevant, since MS is fighting for its place
>as a (the?) dominant software vendor and the overall PR spin of DotNet is
>far more important than the individual subset languages. As long as the
>world in general gets the impression that MS has a real and tangible (if
>flawed/not yet complete) alternative to Java/Linux etc, that *may* be the
>most important thing MS is aiming to achieve.
>

Absolutely. Dead right. They are playing the long game. But Linux is
here already and Kylix will be available on Feb 22. When will .NET be
there?

MM

[Alessandro Coppo]

I started developing for Windows in Dec 1991 (right, 9 years ago). Windows
3.1 was in beta.

During all these years I NEVER had the impression that my status as
developer made me a (well, one of 100,000's ;-)) valuable resources of
Microsoft.

I always felt being nothing more than a pawn who had, at best, the
possibility to try to predict MS moves and adapt to them. When I had
contacts with MS support, I felt that I was regarded just as a
more-annoying-customer-than-usual (because I asked embarassing questions).

Don't feel betrayed. You have NEVER been a valuable asset (and dealt with
accordingly). You have always been just a customer buying products different
from the usual Office.

Alessandro Coppo
a.coppo@iol.it

P.S.: I am going on the 14th (if I am right) to the Milan Borland show about
Kylix....

[David Bayley]

John,

> thoughts/flames??

Ok, a flame <g>.

Apart from the fact the MS live in a competitive and evolving industry where
vendors leap frog each other, your technical criticism of .NET was? _______

--
David.

[Who Cares?]

"David Bayley" <dbayley@aebacus.com> wrote in message
news:3a7b6824$1@news.devx.com...
>
> Apart from the fact the MS live in a competitive and evolving industry
where
> vendors leap frog each other, your technical criticism of .NET was?
_______

That MS's warmed-over version of the J++ / framework
will create a nightmare of complexity and unfixable
bugs, brought about through the incorporation of
thirty different languages, each evolving with
different versions, new features, data types
and under the control of many different
companies and agencies....

but that MS's marketing will allow them to push
.Net onward anyway, displacing any reliable, well-
designed substitute, thus dooming Mankind
to an eternity of shitty, half-assed software,
killing the mere idea of "e-commerce"
for thousands of years, but boosting
MS stock back up to 75 for
a few months.

[Jon Ogden]

"Who Cares?" <venetian@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3a7b95dc@news.devx.com...


> That MS's warmed-over version of the J++ / framework
> will create a nightmare of complexity and unfixable
> bugs...., thus dooming Mankind
> to an eternity of shitty, half-assed software,
> killing the mere idea of "e-commerce"
> for thousands of years, but boosting
> MS stock back up to 75 for
> a few months.
>

Wow, thanks for the tip - I'd stay to find out more, but I have to call my
broker.

[Jonathan Allen]

Standards like the CLS will prevent any data type related problems. As long
as a language plays by the rules, it will work with other compliant
languages just fine.

--
Jonathan Allen


"Who Cares?" <venetian@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3a7b95dc@news.devx.com...

> _______
>
> That MS's warmed-over version of the J++ / framework
> will create a nightmare of complexity and unfixable
> bugs, brought about through the incorporation of
> thirty different languages, each evolving with
> different versions, new features, data types
> and under the control of many different
> companies and agencies....
>
> but that MS's marketing will allow them to push
> .Net onward anyway, displacing any reliable, well-
> designed substitute, thus dooming Mankind
> to an eternity of shitty, half-assed software,
> killing the mere idea of "e-commerce"
> for thousands of years, but boosting
> MS stock back up to 75 for
> a few months.
>
>

[Mark Burns]

"Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3a7ba867@news.devx.com...
> Standards like the CLS will prevent any data type related problems. As
long
> as a language plays by the rules, it will work with other compliant
> languages just fine.

<chide mode = gentlest>
Johnathan, Johnathan, Johnathan...
Haven't you learned _anything_ here recently w/Bill M.?<g>

1) NEVER try to confuse a ranter like this guy with logic or, *ick*,
facts!<g> It only makes 'em rantier! <note: this item does not apply to you
AFAICT, Bill M., k? :-)>

2) Why even bother talking to someone who is so
immature/uncaring/lazy/etc.,. <take you pick(s)> as Mr. "Who Cares?" who
choses to use so blatantly obvious a pseudonym once they have been appraised
of the prefered conduct hereabouts in that regard <meaning, it is strongly
preferred that you use your REAL NAME here>? You only risk dragging yourself
down to their level by encouraging them.
</chide mode = gentlest>

[Jonathan Allen]

I continue to do it for three reasons.

1. To prevent newbies from believing in such lies.

2. It is a good way to blow off steam. This is as close to a "any thing
goes" newsgroup as we are going to get, so there is little harm in cutting
lose. Any flames or other foolish actions there have a limited effect on my
reputation in the more serious newsgroups.

3. Trying to convert the pagans helps to relieve my masochistic urges. It is
better than the other forms of self-torture, like programming in a C based
language.

--
Jonathan Allen

"Compiler Error in HelloWorld.java: There are 287 unhanded exception(s). To
avoid this error, they must be listed in the throws clause."

"Mark Burns" <mark@iolofpa.com> wrote in message
news:3a7cd2c1@news.devx.com...
>
> "Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:3a7ba867@news.devx.com...
> > Standards like the CLS will prevent any data type related problems. As
> long
> > as a language plays by the rules, it will work with other compliant
> > languages just fine.
>
> <chide mode = gentlest>
> Johnathan, Johnathan, Johnathan...
> Haven't you learned _anything_ here recently w/Bill M.?<g>
>
> 1) NEVER try to confuse a ranter like this guy with logic or, *ick*,
> facts!<g> It only makes 'em rantier! <note: this item does not apply to
you
> AFAICT, Bill M., k? :-)>
>
> 2) Why even bother talking to someone who is so
> immature/uncaring/lazy/etc.,. <take you pick(s)> as Mr. "Who Cares?" who
> choses to use so blatantly obvious a pseudonym once they have been
appraised
> of the prefered conduct hereabouts in that regard <meaning, it is strongly
> preferred that you use your REAL NAME here>? You only risk dragging
yourself
> down to their level by encouraging them.
> </chide mode = gentlest>
>
>
>

[Dan Barclay]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:40:43 -0000, "John Butler"
<jrbutler@btclick.com> wrote:

>My original post wasn't intended to start a rant....sorry...
>
>I guess I was kinda hoping someone would tell me that MS does really care
>about us VB'ers and we aren't just gently being drawn along in C#'s wake....

I can't tell you that, but the evidence sure indicates they don't.

Dan
Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
(#6)

[John Butler]

My original post wasn't intended to start a rant....sorry...

I guess I was kinda hoping someone would tell me that MS does really care
about us VB'ers and we aren't just gently being drawn along in C#'s wake....

Regards
John Butler


"Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3a7cd5e7@news.devx.com...
> I continue to do it for three reasons.
>
> 1. To prevent newbies from believing in such lies.
>
> 2. It is a good way to blow off steam. This is as close to a "any thing
> goes" newsgroup as we are going to get, so there is little harm in cutting
> lose. Any flames or other foolish actions there have a limited effect on
my
> reputation in the more serious newsgroups.
>
> 3. Trying to convert the pagans helps to relieve my masochistic urges. It
is
> better than the other forms of self-torture, like programming in a C based
> language.
>
> --
> Jonathan Allen
>
> "Compiler Error in HelloWorld.java: There are 287 unhanded exception(s).
To
> avoid this error, they must be listed in the throws clause."
>
> "Mark Burns" <mark@iolofpa.com> wrote in message
> news:3a7cd2c1@news.devx.com...
> >
> > "Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> > news:3a7ba867@news.devx.com...
> > > Standards like the CLS will prevent any data type related problems. As
> > long
> > > as a language plays by the rules, it will work with other compliant
> > > languages just fine.
> >
> > <chide mode = gentlest>
> > Johnathan, Johnathan, Johnathan...
> > Haven't you learned _anything_ here recently w/Bill M.?<g>
> >
> > 1) NEVER try to confuse a ranter like this guy with logic or, *ick*,
> > facts!<g> It only makes 'em rantier! <note: this item does not apply to
> you
> > AFAICT, Bill M., k? :-)>
> >
> > 2) Why even bother talking to someone who is so
> > immature/uncaring/lazy/etc.,. <take you pick(s)> as Mr. "Who Cares?" who
> > choses to use so blatantly obvious a pseudonym once they have been
> appraised
> > of the prefered conduct hereabouts in that regard <meaning, it is
strongly
> > preferred that you use your REAL NAME here>? You only risk dragging
> yourself
> > down to their level by encouraging them.
> > </chide mode = gentlest>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

[Mark Burns]

"John Butler" <jrbutler@btclick.com> wrote in message
news:3a7f2ad4@news.devx.com...
> My original post wasn't intended to start a rant....sorry...
>
> I guess I was kinda hoping someone would tell me that MS does really care
> about us VB'ers and we aren't just gently being drawn along in C#'s
wake....

Oh! You _are_ confused. Wakes are V-shaped(in 2D) wavefronts that typically
herald the passage of something through a medium leaving turbulence in the
"wake" area behind its passage (within the "V"). This "being drawn along"
feeling you're reporting on has much more to do with things like whirlpools
and drains... HTH.<g>

[John Butler]

hmmm.....guess I am still on the outside edge and haven't started feeling
like I am being sucked down into the depths yet...


"Mark Burns" <mark@iolofpa.com> wrote in message
news:3a80848f@news.devx.com...
>
> "John Butler" <jrbutler@btclick.com> wrote in message
> news:3a7f2ad4@news.devx.com...
> > My original post wasn't intended to start a rant....sorry...
> >
> > I guess I was kinda hoping someone would tell me that MS does really
care
> > about us VB'ers and we aren't just gently being drawn along in C#'s
> wake....
>
> Oh! You _are_ confused. Wakes are V-shaped(in 2D) wavefronts that
typically
> herald the passage of something through a medium leaving turbulence in the
> "wake" area behind its passage (within the "V"). This "being drawn along"
> feeling you're reporting on has much more to do with things like
whirlpools
> and drains... HTH.<g>
>
>
>