dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....


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Thread: dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....

  1. #1
    John Butler Guest

    dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....

    well...while we all postulate on what got left out of Visual Asic 7, or
    changed or put in....

    Isn't it simply true that the bigger picture is:

    Microsoft simply had to come up with something to counteract the whole Java
    thang. Having been stopped from joining in (or hijacking, depending on your
    mindset) the java movement, they had to frantically invent a new wheel
    (spin) and get everyone interested in it. The entire Dotnet platform and
    it's "language is irrelevant" stance is surely one huge (PR?) drive to
    provide an alternative to Java that will prevent, prinicipally the public
    and secondly, us developers, from slowly trudging our way over to
    incorporating Java into our way of thinking. In this drive, VB is but a
    small (maybe) important pawn, but nevertheless still a small part of a whole
    gamble to try and prevent revenues from moving towards to the Sun/Oracle/IBM
    et al camp.

    ....and thus my final therefore: No matter how much we kick and squeal about
    Visual Fred, it isn't _that_ relevant, since MS is fighting for its place
    as a (the?) dominant software vendor and the overall PR spin of DotNet is
    far more important than the individual subset languages. As long as the
    world in general gets the impression that MS has a real and tangible (if
    flawed/not yet complete) alternative to Java/Linux etc, that *may* be the
    most important thing MS is aiming to achieve.

    thoughts/flames??

    Regards
    John Butler






  2. #2
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....

    On Fri, 2 Feb 2001 01:34:28 -0000, "John Butler"
    <jrbutler@btclick.com> wrote:

    >...and thus my final therefore: No matter how much we kick and squeal about
    >Visual Fred, it isn't _that_ relevant, since MS is fighting for its place
    >as a (the?) dominant software vendor and the overall PR spin of DotNet is
    >far more important than the individual subset languages. As long as the
    >world in general gets the impression that MS has a real and tangible (if
    >flawed/not yet complete) alternative to Java/Linux etc, that *may* be the
    >most important thing MS is aiming to achieve.
    >


    Absolutely. Dead right. They are playing the long game. But Linux is
    here already and Kylix will be available on Feb 22. When will .NET be
    there?

    MM

  3. #3
    Alessandro Coppo Guest

    Re: dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....

    I started developing for Windows in Dec 1991 (right, 9 years ago). Windows
    3.1 was in beta.

    During all these years I NEVER had the impression that my status as
    developer made me a (well, one of 100,000's ;-)) valuable resources of
    Microsoft.

    I always felt being nothing more than a pawn who had, at best, the
    possibility to try to predict MS moves and adapt to them. When I had
    contacts with MS support, I felt that I was regarded just as a
    more-annoying-customer-than-usual (because I asked embarassing questions).

    Don't feel betrayed. You have NEVER been a valuable asset (and dealt with
    accordingly). You have always been just a customer buying products different
    from the usual Office.

    Alessandro Coppo
    a.coppo@iol.it

    P.S.: I am going on the 14th (if I am right) to the Milan Borland show about
    Kylix....



  4. #4
    David Bayley Guest

    Re: dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....

    John,

    > thoughts/flames??


    Ok, a flame <g>.

    Apart from the fact the MS live in a competitive and evolving industry where
    vendors leap frog each other, your technical criticism of .NET was? _______

    --
    David.




  5. #5
    Who Cares? Guest

    Re: dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....

    "David Bayley" <dbayley@aebacus.com> wrote in message
    news:3a7b6824$1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > Apart from the fact the MS live in a competitive and evolving industry

    where
    > vendors leap frog each other, your technical criticism of .NET was?

    _______

    That MS's warmed-over version of the J++ / framework
    will create a nightmare of complexity and unfixable
    bugs, brought about through the incorporation of
    thirty different languages, each evolving with
    different versions, new features, data types
    and under the control of many different
    companies and agencies....

    but that MS's marketing will allow them to push
    .Net onward anyway, displacing any reliable, well-
    designed substitute, thus dooming Mankind
    to an eternity of shitty, half-assed software,
    killing the mere idea of "e-commerce"
    for thousands of years, but boosting
    MS stock back up to 75 for
    a few months.



  6. #6
    Jon Ogden Guest

    Re: dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....


    "Who Cares?" <venetian@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:3a7b95dc@news.devx.com...


    > That MS's warmed-over version of the J++ / framework
    > will create a nightmare of complexity and unfixable
    > bugs...., thus dooming Mankind
    > to an eternity of shitty, half-assed software,
    > killing the mere idea of "e-commerce"
    > for thousands of years, but boosting
    > MS stock back up to 75 for
    > a few months.
    >


    Wow, thanks for the tip - I'd stay to find out more, but I have to call my
    broker.




  7. #7
    Jonathan Allen Guest

    Re: dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....

    Standards like the CLS will prevent any data type related problems. As long
    as a language plays by the rules, it will work with other compliant
    languages just fine.

    --
    Jonathan Allen


    "Who Cares?" <venetian@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:3a7b95dc@news.devx.com...

    > _______
    >
    > That MS's warmed-over version of the J++ / framework
    > will create a nightmare of complexity and unfixable
    > bugs, brought about through the incorporation of
    > thirty different languages, each evolving with
    > different versions, new features, data types
    > and under the control of many different
    > companies and agencies....
    >
    > but that MS's marketing will allow them to push
    > .Net onward anyway, displacing any reliable, well-
    > designed substitute, thus dooming Mankind
    > to an eternity of shitty, half-assed software,
    > killing the mere idea of "e-commerce"
    > for thousands of years, but boosting
    > MS stock back up to 75 for
    > a few months.
    >
    >




  8. #8
    Mark Burns Guest

    Re: dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....


    "Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
    news:3a7ba867@news.devx.com...
    > Standards like the CLS will prevent any data type related problems. As

    long
    > as a language plays by the rules, it will work with other compliant
    > languages just fine.


    <chide mode = gentlest>
    Johnathan, Johnathan, Johnathan...
    Haven't you learned _anything_ here recently w/Bill M.?<g>

    1) NEVER try to confuse a ranter like this guy with logic or, *ick*,
    facts!<g> It only makes 'em rantier! <note: this item does not apply to you
    AFAICT, Bill M., k? :-)>

    2) Why even bother talking to someone who is so
    immature/uncaring/lazy/etc.,. <take you pick(s)> as Mr. "Who Cares?" who
    choses to use so blatantly obvious a pseudonym once they have been appraised
    of the prefered conduct hereabouts in that regard <meaning, it is strongly
    preferred that you use your REAL NAME here>? You only risk dragging yourself
    down to their level by encouraging them.
    </chide mode = gentlest>




  9. #9
    Jonathan Allen Guest

    Re: dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....

    I continue to do it for three reasons.

    1. To prevent newbies from believing in such lies.

    2. It is a good way to blow off steam. This is as close to a "any thing
    goes" newsgroup as we are going to get, so there is little harm in cutting
    lose. Any flames or other foolish actions there have a limited effect on my
    reputation in the more serious newsgroups.

    3. Trying to convert the pagans helps to relieve my masochistic urges. It is
    better than the other forms of self-torture, like programming in a C based
    language.

    --
    Jonathan Allen

    "Compiler Error in HelloWorld.java: There are 287 unhanded exception(s). To
    avoid this error, they must be listed in the throws clause."

    "Mark Burns" <mark@iolofpa.com> wrote in message
    news:3a7cd2c1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > "Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
    > news:3a7ba867@news.devx.com...
    > > Standards like the CLS will prevent any data type related problems. As

    > long
    > > as a language plays by the rules, it will work with other compliant
    > > languages just fine.

    >
    > <chide mode = gentlest>
    > Johnathan, Johnathan, Johnathan...
    > Haven't you learned _anything_ here recently w/Bill M.?<g>
    >
    > 1) NEVER try to confuse a ranter like this guy with logic or, *ick*,
    > facts!<g> It only makes 'em rantier! <note: this item does not apply to

    you
    > AFAICT, Bill M., k? :-)>
    >
    > 2) Why even bother talking to someone who is so
    > immature/uncaring/lazy/etc.,. <take you pick(s)> as Mr. "Who Cares?" who
    > choses to use so blatantly obvious a pseudonym once they have been

    appraised
    > of the prefered conduct hereabouts in that regard <meaning, it is strongly
    > preferred that you use your REAL NAME here>? You only risk dragging

    yourself
    > down to their level by encouraging them.
    > </chide mode = gentlest>
    >
    >
    >






  10. #10
    Dan Barclay Guest

    Re: dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....

    On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:40:43 -0000, "John Butler"
    <jrbutler@btclick.com> wrote:

    >My original post wasn't intended to start a rant....sorry...
    >
    >I guess I was kinda hoping someone would tell me that MS does really care
    >about us VB'ers and we aren't just gently being drawn along in C#'s wake....


    I can't tell you that, but the evidence sure indicates they don't.

    Dan
    Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    (#6)

  11. #11
    John Butler Guest

    Re: dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....

    My original post wasn't intended to start a rant....sorry...

    I guess I was kinda hoping someone would tell me that MS does really care
    about us VB'ers and we aren't just gently being drawn along in C#'s wake....

    Regards
    John Butler


    "Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
    news:3a7cd5e7@news.devx.com...
    > I continue to do it for three reasons.
    >
    > 1. To prevent newbies from believing in such lies.
    >
    > 2. It is a good way to blow off steam. This is as close to a "any thing
    > goes" newsgroup as we are going to get, so there is little harm in cutting
    > lose. Any flames or other foolish actions there have a limited effect on

    my
    > reputation in the more serious newsgroups.
    >
    > 3. Trying to convert the pagans helps to relieve my masochistic urges. It

    is
    > better than the other forms of self-torture, like programming in a C based
    > language.
    >
    > --
    > Jonathan Allen
    >
    > "Compiler Error in HelloWorld.java: There are 287 unhanded exception(s).

    To
    > avoid this error, they must be listed in the throws clause."
    >
    > "Mark Burns" <mark@iolofpa.com> wrote in message
    > news:3a7cd2c1@news.devx.com...
    > >
    > > "Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
    > > news:3a7ba867@news.devx.com...
    > > > Standards like the CLS will prevent any data type related problems. As

    > > long
    > > > as a language plays by the rules, it will work with other compliant
    > > > languages just fine.

    > >
    > > <chide mode = gentlest>
    > > Johnathan, Johnathan, Johnathan...
    > > Haven't you learned _anything_ here recently w/Bill M.?<g>
    > >
    > > 1) NEVER try to confuse a ranter like this guy with logic or, *ick*,
    > > facts!<g> It only makes 'em rantier! <note: this item does not apply to

    > you
    > > AFAICT, Bill M., k? :-)>
    > >
    > > 2) Why even bother talking to someone who is so
    > > immature/uncaring/lazy/etc.,. <take you pick(s)> as Mr. "Who Cares?" who
    > > choses to use so blatantly obvious a pseudonym once they have been

    > appraised
    > > of the prefered conduct hereabouts in that regard <meaning, it is

    strongly
    > > preferred that you use your REAL NAME here>? You only risk dragging

    > yourself
    > > down to their level by encouraging them.
    > > </chide mode = gentlest>
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    >
    >




  12. #12
    Mark Burns Guest

    Re: dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....


    "John Butler" <jrbutler@btclick.com> wrote in message
    news:3a7f2ad4@news.devx.com...
    > My original post wasn't intended to start a rant....sorry...
    >
    > I guess I was kinda hoping someone would tell me that MS does really care
    > about us VB'ers and we aren't just gently being drawn along in C#'s

    wake....

    Oh! You _are_ confused. Wakes are V-shaped(in 2D) wavefronts that typically
    herald the passage of something through a medium leaving turbulence in the
    "wake" area behind its passage (within the "V"). This "being drawn along"
    feeling you're reporting on has much more to do with things like whirlpools
    and drains... HTH.<g>




  13. #13
    John Butler Guest

    Re: dotnet/not/gnat: Isn't the bigger picture that....

    hmmm.....guess I am still on the outside edge and haven't started feeling
    like I am being sucked down into the depths yet...


    "Mark Burns" <mark@iolofpa.com> wrote in message
    news:3a80848f@news.devx.com...
    >
    > "John Butler" <jrbutler@btclick.com> wrote in message
    > news:3a7f2ad4@news.devx.com...
    > > My original post wasn't intended to start a rant....sorry...
    > >
    > > I guess I was kinda hoping someone would tell me that MS does really

    care
    > > about us VB'ers and we aren't just gently being drawn along in C#'s

    > wake....
    >
    > Oh! You _are_ confused. Wakes are V-shaped(in 2D) wavefronts that

    typically
    > herald the passage of something through a medium leaving turbulence in the
    > "wake" area behind its passage (within the "V"). This "being drawn along"
    > feeling you're reporting on has much more to do with things like

    whirlpools
    > and drains... HTH.<g>
    >
    >
    >




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