The Future of Unmanaged Code


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Thread: The Future of Unmanaged Code

  1. #1
    Tim Romano Guest

    The Future of Unmanaged Code

    As a newcomer to the discussion, I apologize if this subject has been worked
    to death. But it seems to me that .NET and its "managed code" approach is a
    way of killing off competing application development tools/languages such as
    Delphi and Java. What is the future of "unmanaged code" under Windows?
    What is the projected lifespan of the Win32 API?

    Tim Romano
    www.aimsdata.com/tim




  2. #2
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: The Future of Unmanaged Code

    On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:49:54 -0500, "Tim Romano"
    <tim_romano@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >As a newcomer to the discussion, I apologize if this subject has been worked
    >to death. But it seems to me that .NET and its "managed code" approach is a
    >way of killing off competing application development tools/languages such as
    >Delphi and Java. What is the future of "unmanaged code" under Windows?
    >What is the projected lifespan of the Win32 API?


    If you're wondering whether there will come a time when VB6 apps will
    no longer run on the then current version of Windows, I do not know.
    But what is clear is that Borland, for example, *have* produced a
    Delphi look-alike in Kylix which obviously relies on absolutely no
    Windows platform. So if one vendor can produce a RAD package without
    basing it on Windows, so can others.

    MM

  3. #3
    Karl E. Peterson Guest

    Re: The Future of Unmanaged Code

    Hi Tim --

    > As a newcomer to the discussion, I apologize if this subject has been worked
    > to death. But it seems to me that .NET and its "managed code" approach is a
    > way of killing off competing application development tools/languages such as
    > Delphi and Java. What is the future of "unmanaged code" under Windows?
    > What is the projected lifespan of the Win32 API?


    Oh, it's far more sinister than that! A friend of mine who shall remain nameless
    (but has a popular east-coast radio talk show about computing <g>) and I were talking
    about this yesterday, and I thought his comment below was particularly inciteful:

    >>You think MSFT will compile Word or Excel using .NET and rely on copyright
    >>enforcement to protect them? The day they ship this port, will be the day
    >>you can assume your intellectual property is somewhat safe.

    >
    >Nah, that ****'ll be coded in native C++. And they probably wish
    >they never ditched the ASM.
    >
    >That's the REAL story here: How MS and Sun end up controlling
    >high-performance computing because they're the only guys left standing who
    >will still be coding in ASM and C.


    Hear them black helicopters? <g>

    Later... Karl
    --
    http://www.mvps.org/vb



  4. #4
    Jonathan Allen Guest

    Re: The Future of Unmanaged Code

    X86, C and C++ are unmanaged languages.

    LISP, Basic, Pascal, VB, Java (and probably Delphi) are managed languages.

    Keeping that in mind, please rephrase your question.

    --
    Jonathan Allen


    "Tim Romano" <tim_romano@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:3a95267d@news.devx.com...
    > As a newcomer to the discussion, I apologize if this subject has been

    worked
    > to death. But it seems to me that .NET and its "managed code" approach is

    a
    > way of killing off competing application development tools/languages such

    as
    > Delphi and Java. What is the future of "unmanaged code" under Windows?
    > What is the projected lifespan of the Win32 API?
    >
    > Tim Romano
    > www.aimsdata.com/tim
    >
    >
    >




  5. #5
    Tim Romano Guest

    Re: The Future of Unmanaged Code

    Mike,
    "Whether there will come a time when VB6 apps no longer run on the then
    current verison of Windows" is precisely what I'm wondering. I'm not a
    computer scientist and have tended to avoid learning about the innards of
    Windows, and so invite correction by those here who know these things-- but
    it seems to me that if the Win32 API were to become frozen in time, and COM
    as well, then that stability would usher in a golden age of desktop Win32
    computing--hardly what Microsoft would want if it is trying to move the
    desktop forward onto the .NET framework. So, my mind jumps to this
    conclusion: how long could the Win32 API and the .NET framework peacefully
    coexist, given such marketing pressures?

    I take it as a given the Microsoft OWNS the desktop after having
    successfully killed off Java there, if not on the server. Microsoft, as
    owner of Win32, is probably capable (technically, if not legally) of doing
    subtle things to the Win32 substratum that could make life quite difficult
    for Win32 legacy applications.
    Tim Romano


    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:3a957ee7.3899021@news.devx.com...
    > On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:49:54 -0500, "Tim Romano"
    > <tim_romano@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >
    > >As a newcomer to the discussion, I apologize if this subject has been

    worked
    > >to death. But it seems to me that .NET and its "managed code" approach

    is a
    > >way of killing off competing application development tools/languages such

    as
    > >Delphi and Java. What is the future of "unmanaged code" under Windows?
    > >What is the projected lifespan of the Win32 API?

    >
    > If you're wondering whether there will come a time when VB6 apps will
    > no longer run on the then current version of Windows, I do not know.
    > But what is clear is that Borland, for example, *have* produced a
    > Delphi look-alike in Kylix which obviously relies on absolutely no
    > Windows platform. So if one vendor can produce a RAD package without
    > basing it on Windows, so can others.
    >
    > MM




  6. #6
    Tim Romano Guest

    Re: The Future of Unmanaged Code

    Jonathan,
    Are you making a distinction between interpreted and compiled languages
    here? If so, then that is not what I meant by "managed" versus "unmanaged".
    With .NET, the operating system -- or the "framework" controlled by the
    operating system vendor-- becomes the interpreter. What would happen to
    third party legacy programs that depend on Win32 if that API were to become
    destabilized? I expect it to become destabilized because, as I said in my
    reply to Mike Mitchell, a stable Win32 "frozen in time" would usher in a
    golden age of Win32 legacy programming, which is not what Microsoft wants,
    is it?

    Or did I misunderstand you with respect to Delphi? Is there going to be a
    ..NET version from INprise?
    Tim Romano

    "Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
    news:3a95a1d9@news.devx.com...
    > X86, C and C++ are unmanaged languages.
    >
    > LISP, Basic, Pascal, VB, Java (and probably Delphi) are managed languages.
    >
    > Keeping that in mind, please rephrase your question.
    >
    > --
    > Jonathan Allen
    >
    >
    > "Tim Romano" <tim_romano@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:3a95267d@news.devx.com...
    > > As a newcomer to the discussion, I apologize if this subject has been

    > worked
    > > to death. But it seems to me that .NET and its "managed code" approach

    is
    > a
    > > way of killing off competing application development tools/languages

    such
    > as
    > > Delphi and Java. What is the future of "unmanaged code" under Windows?
    > > What is the projected lifespan of the Win32 API?
    > >
    > > Tim Romano
    > > www.aimsdata.com/tim
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    >




  7. #7
    Tim Romano Guest

    Re: The Future of Unmanaged Code

    Hi Karl,
    I hear those helicopters, but it seems to me they're hovering over Sun. I
    wouldn't expect Sun to be very happy about .NET as its purpose seems to be
    to get Microsoft ownership of the server space as they now own the desktop.
    Tim Romano

    > >
    > >Nah, that ****'ll be coded in native C++. And they probably wish
    > >they never ditched the ASM.
    > >
    > >That's the REAL story here: How MS and Sun end up controlling
    > >high-performance computing because they're the only guys left standing

    who
    > >will still be coding in ASM and C.

    >
    > Hear them black helicopters? <g>
    >
    > Later... Karl
    > --
    > http://www.mvps.org/vb
    >
    >




  8. #8
    Jonathan Allen Guest

    Re: The Future of Unmanaged Code

    > Are you making a distinction between interpreted and compiled languages
    > here?


    No, the distinction is wither memory is managed by the runtime or the
    programmer.

    Wither the language is compiled or not rarely factors into programming.
    Especially when you consider that many languages off both modes.

    --
    Jonathan Allen


    "Tim Romano" <tim_romano@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:3a95d93e@news.devx.com...
    > Jonathan,
    > Are you making a distinction between interpreted and compiled languages
    > here? If so, then that is not what I meant by "managed" versus

    "unmanaged".
    > With .NET, the operating system -- or the "framework" controlled by the
    > operating system vendor-- becomes the interpreter. What would happen to
    > third party legacy programs that depend on Win32 if that API were to

    become
    > destabilized? I expect it to become destabilized because, as I said in my
    > reply to Mike Mitchell, a stable Win32 "frozen in time" would usher in a
    > golden age of Win32 legacy programming, which is not what Microsoft wants,
    > is it?
    >
    > Or did I misunderstand you with respect to Delphi? Is there going to be a
    > .NET version from INprise?
    > Tim Romano
    >
    > "Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
    > news:3a95a1d9@news.devx.com...
    > > X86, C and C++ are unmanaged languages.
    > >
    > > LISP, Basic, Pascal, VB, Java (and probably Delphi) are managed

    languages.
    > >
    > > Keeping that in mind, please rephrase your question.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Jonathan Allen
    > >
    > >





  9. #9
    Jonathan Allen Guest

    Re: The Future of Unmanaged Code

    Eventually Microsoft is going to have to let Win32 go. The CLR may contain
    the seeds of this transition, but it is still a long way off. Some day we
    will have a safe and clean OO based operating system and API. (I wonder if
    it will be in my lifetime.)

    --
    Jonathan Allen


    "Tim Romano" <tim_romano@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:3a95d77e$1@news.devx.com...
    > Mike,
    > "Whether there will come a time when VB6 apps no longer run on the then
    > current verison of Windows" is precisely what I'm wondering. I'm not a
    > computer scientist and have tended to avoid learning about the innards of
    > Windows, and so invite correction by those here who know these things--

    but
    > it seems to me that if the Win32 API were to become frozen in time, and

    COM
    > as well, then that stability would usher in a golden age of desktop Win32
    > computing--hardly what Microsoft would want if it is trying to move the
    > desktop forward onto the .NET framework. So, my mind jumps to this
    > conclusion: how long could the Win32 API and the .NET framework peacefully
    > coexist, given such marketing pressures?
    >
    > I take it as a given the Microsoft OWNS the desktop after having
    > successfully killed off Java there, if not on the server. Microsoft, as
    > owner of Win32, is probably capable (technically, if not legally) of doing
    > subtle things to the Win32 substratum that could make life quite difficult
    > for Win32 legacy applications.
    > Tim Romano
    >





  10. #10
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: The Future of Unmanaged Code

    On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:16:36 -0800, "Jonathan Allen"
    <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote:

    >Some day we
    >will have a safe and clean OO based operating system and API. (I wonder if
    >it will be in my lifetime.)


    Not if the DOJ has its way.


    ---
    Ice Z - Straight Outta Redmond

  11. #11
    Tim Romano Guest

    Re: The Future of Unmanaged Code

    So, now that I know what you meant in your correction to my question, and
    now that you know what I meant to ask with my question, what IS your take on
    the future of programs that rely upon the Win32 API? At present, my
    software licensing agreements warrant that my programs are "Windows 9.x
    compatible". I'm concerned that Microsoft might introduce changes to the
    Win 9.x platform, to better support .NET, that could destabilize VB6/ActiveX
    and invalidate that contractual promise. I would be relieved to learn that
    my concerns in this regard are unfounded. By others I have been told that
    ..NET and VB6/ActiveX will peacefully coexist on Windows 9.x -- is that your
    understanding as well?

    Tim Romano


    "Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
    news:3a95f72e@news.devx.com...
    > > Are you making a distinction between interpreted and compiled languages
    > > here?

    >
    > No, the distinction is wither memory is managed by the runtime or the
    > programmer.
    >
    > Wither the language is compiled or not rarely factors into programming.
    > Especially when you consider that many languages off both modes.
    >
    > --
    > Jonathan Allen
    >
    >
    > "Tim Romano" <tim_romano@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:3a95d93e@news.devx.com...
    > > Jonathan,
    > > Are you making a distinction between interpreted and compiled languages
    > > here? If so, then that is not what I meant by "managed" versus

    > "unmanaged".
    > > With .NET, the operating system -- or the "framework" controlled by the
    > > operating system vendor-- becomes the interpreter. What would happen to
    > > third party legacy programs that depend on Win32 if that API were to

    > become
    > > destabilized? I expect it to become destabilized because, as I said in

    my
    > > reply to Mike Mitchell, a stable Win32 "frozen in time" would usher in a
    > > golden age of Win32 legacy programming, which is not what Microsoft

    wants,
    > > is it?
    > >
    > > Or did I misunderstand you with respect to Delphi? Is there going to be

    a
    > > .NET version from INprise?
    > > Tim Romano
    > >
    > > "Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
    > > news:3a95a1d9@news.devx.com...
    > > > X86, C and C++ are unmanaged languages.
    > > >
    > > > LISP, Basic, Pascal, VB, Java (and probably Delphi) are managed

    > languages.
    > > >
    > > > Keeping that in mind, please rephrase your question.
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > Jonathan Allen
    > > >
    > > >

    >
    >
    >




  12. #12
    William Cleveland Guest

    Re: The Future of Unmanaged Code

    Zane Thomas wrote:
    >
    > On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:16:36 -0800, "Jonathan Allen"
    > <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote:
    >
    > >Some day we
    > >will have a safe and clean OO based operating system and API. (I wonder if
    > >it will be in my lifetime.)

    >
    > Not if the DOJ has its way.
    >

    It doesn't have to come from Microsoft.

    Bill

  13. #13
    Sjoerd Verweij Guest

    Re: The Future of Unmanaged Code

    > my concerns in this regard are unfounded. By others I have been told that
    > .NET and VB6/ActiveX will peacefully coexist on Windows 9.x -- is that

    your
    > understanding as well?


    I'd say you'd be safe in that assumption for at least five years or so.
    Microsoft is not suicidal.




  14. #14
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: The Future of Unmanaged Code

    On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:15:06 -0500, William Cleveland
    <WCleveland@Mediaone.Net> wrote:

    >It doesn't have to come from Microsoft.


    They'll do it if the government stays out of things.


    ---
    Ice Z - Straight Outta Redmond

  15. #15
    Jonathan Allen Guest

    Re: The Future of Unmanaged Code

    > So, now that I know what you meant in your correction to my question, and
    > now that you know what I meant to ask with my question, what IS your take

    on
    > the future of programs that rely upon the Win32 API?


    See my commits on the other branch of this thread.

    --
    Jonathan Allen




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