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Thread: Why I like VB.NET

  1. #16
    John Proffitt Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET


    "Sean Taffin" <sean@taffin.net> wrote:
    >
    >"Tom Cabanski" <tcabanski@oai.cc> wrote in message
    >news:3a91a738$1@news.devx.com...
    >> The bigger question, I think, is whether or not .NET will live up to the
    >> promise of cross-platform portability. If someone, maybe even >>Microsoft,

    ports .NET to Linux, I think Java will be just another .NET >>language.
    If not, I think .NET might be a flop.
    >
    >Hmm. I remember Steve Balmer claiming that Linux is the threat #1 for
    >Windows. I still have doubts if they will port .NET to Linux and if they
    >or someone else ports .NET to Linux, if Linux user will welcome a MS
    >technology.
    >


    Microsoft needs to loosen up. The business of selling software (like most
    enterprises that involve human culture) is not a zero sum game. If they
    port software to Linux, or help with the WINE project, or with Samba, or
    enter a dialog with the KDE or GNOME folks about user interface issues, it
    makes their bid for cross-platform interoperability look more credible.
    It gives the company a chance to make some of that unix money, too. And
    it makes the company look a little more tractable and sympathetic, something
    that the Microsoft corporate image could sure use.

    Who knows? If the Evil Empire started to look like the Nice Guys it might
    get the Justice Department off their case. It might make it harder to sell
    people on the benefits of an Open Source solution. It might make it easier
    for people to choose Microsoft over Apple or BE. There's more than one way
    to compete and more than one way to measure success.


  2. #17
    Steve Dee Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET

    Patrick,
    you don't need to "justify" using one over the other...that's part of
    the beauty of .Net.....I prefer C#....but only because I "cut my teeth" on C
    and find it's "archaic, cryptic, case sensistive syntax" more natural and
    more powerful. However, VB.Net pretty much levels the playing field. I
    love VB for what it is good at....mainly, creating GUI's. I love C for
    giving me complete control. I can write the same program (thank's to .Net)
    in C# with fewer lines than in VB....does that make it better? No....it's
    just a matter or preference. I use to tell my developers "don't do that in
    VB, it's not the right tool!!! (mainly API stuff)" but now, it really
    doesn't matter.

    "Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote in message
    news:3a927e16$1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > "Frustrated IT Worker" <frustrated@nospam.com> wrote:
    > >How
    > >can anyone justify using VB.NET rather than C#?

    >
    > How can anyone justify using C# rather than VB.NET? C# is based on an

    archaic,
    > cryptic, case sensitive syntax.
    >




  3. #18
    Steve Dee Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET

    Bob,
    > case-sensitivity in a language. I have yet to see any value to it and

    using
    > it to have different private/public values that differ only in the case
    > makes the code very difficult to work with.


    A "good" C style programmer doesn't use "case" for private/public values.
    That's a "stupid pet trick" and is frowned upon by most.



  4. #19
    Steve Dee Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET

    Patrick,
    > say the C-style is the most cryptic I've encountered so far.


    I'm truly curious.....what's so cryptic about C-style? This might help me
    with training some VB (only) people.




  5. #20
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET


    Oh, I agree with that. "Justify" was Frustrated IT Worker's word, I was just
    trying to turn the question around. If you come from a C background, C# is
    a logical choice. If you come from a Basic background, or from a clean slate,
    I think VB.NET is the logical choice.

    /Pat

    "Steve Dee" <Steve_Dee@md.prestige.net> wrote:
    >Patrick,
    > you don't need to "justify" using one over the other...that's part of
    >the beauty of .Net.....I prefer C#....but only because I "cut my teeth"

    on C
    >and find it's "archaic, cryptic, case sensistive syntax" more natural and
    >more powerful. However, VB.Net pretty much levels the playing field. I
    >love VB for what it is good at....mainly, creating GUI's. I love C for
    >giving me complete control. I can write the same program (thank's to .Net)
    >in C# with fewer lines than in VB....does that make it better? No....it's
    >just a matter or preference. I use to tell my developers "don't do that

    in
    >VB, it's not the right tool!!! (mainly API stuff)" but now, it really
    >doesn't matter.
    >
    >"Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote in message
    >news:3a927e16$1@news.devx.com...
    >>
    >> "Frustrated IT Worker" <frustrated@nospam.com> wrote:
    >> >How
    >> >can anyone justify using VB.NET rather than C#?

    >>
    >> How can anyone justify using C# rather than VB.NET? C# is based on an

    >archaic,
    >> cryptic, case sensitive syntax.



  6. #21
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET


    For me, there are two primary reasons I don't care for the C-style syntax....

    - Excessive use of symbols instead of English keywords
    - Use of brackets to dilineate all forms of scope instead of specific keywords
    for specific scopes

    But other people may have different reasons.

    /Pat

    "Steve Dee" <Steve_Dee@md.prestige.net> wrote:
    >Patrick,
    >> say the C-style is the most cryptic I've encountered so far.

    >
    >I'm truly curious.....what's so cryptic about C-style? This might help

    me
    >with training some VB (only) people.




  7. #22
    Sjoerd Verweij Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET

    > I'm truly curious.....what's so cryptic about C-style?

    The fact that there isn't an Obfuscated BASIC contest should tell you
    something.




  8. #23
    Frustrated IT Worker Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET


    Okay, I guess I didn't make myself very clear with what I was trying to say.
    By "justify" I meant from a business standpoint (i.e. cost factor) and not
    from a developer's perspective. I was assuming a computing environment where
    you had both C++ and VB applications to contend with. In this type of environment,
    the "right tool" for current and future projects doesn't seem to me to be
    VB or VB.NET because all things won't be equal in the .NET world. If necessary,
    C++ applications can be upgraded in stages or not at all. You cannot do this
    with VB. Most non-trivial VB applications will probably require a total rewrite.
    Maybe Microsoft will prove me wrong, but I don't think their conversion tool
    is going to work very well on most VB applications.

    "Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
    >
    >Oh, I agree with that. "Justify" was Frustrated IT Worker's word, I was

    just
    >trying to turn the question around. If you come from a C background, C#

    is
    >a logical choice. If you come from a Basic background, or from a clean slate,
    >I think VB.NET is the logical choice.
    >
    >/Pat
    >
    >"Steve Dee" <Steve_Dee@md.prestige.net> wrote:
    >>Patrick,
    >> you don't need to "justify" using one over the other...that's part

    of
    >>the beauty of .Net.....I prefer C#....but only because I "cut my teeth"

    >on C
    >>and find it's "archaic, cryptic, case sensistive syntax" more natural and
    >>more powerful. However, VB.Net pretty much levels the playing field.

    I
    >>love VB for what it is good at....mainly, creating GUI's. I love C for
    >>giving me complete control. I can write the same program (thank's to .Net)
    >>in C# with fewer lines than in VB....does that make it better? No....it's
    >>just a matter or preference. I use to tell my developers "don't do that

    >in
    >>VB, it's not the right tool!!! (mainly API stuff)" but now, it really
    >>doesn't matter.
    >>
    >>"Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote in message
    >>news:3a927e16$1@news.devx.com...
    >>>
    >>> "Frustrated IT Worker" <frustrated@nospam.com> wrote:
    >>> >How
    >>> >can anyone justify using VB.NET rather than C#?
    >>>
    >>> How can anyone justify using C# rather than VB.NET? C# is based on an

    >>archaic,
    >>> cryptic, case sensitive syntax.

    >



  9. #24
    William Cleveland Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET

    Patrick Troughton wrote:
    >
    > For me, there are two primary reasons I don't care for the C-style syntax....
    >
    > - Use of brackets to dilineate all forms of scope instead of specific keywords
    > for specific scopes
    >

    I flip-flop about this one. On the one hand, I think a code block is a
    code block is a code block. On the other hand, it seems to make it
    easier to see what code block is being ended.

    Bill

  10. #25
    Steve Dee Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET

    No......that isn't it....you can write nasty BASIC code that is illegible
    also...
    Anyone who actually WRITES code like the Obfuscated contests entries do
    should be terminated, shot, run over by a truck, terminated again, and then
    kicked in the ....... well wherever it hurts most.


    "Sjoerd Verweij" <nospam.sjoerd@sjoerd.org> wrote in message
    news:3a93eff2@news.devx.com...
    > > I'm truly curious.....what's so cryptic about C-style?

    >
    > The fact that there isn't an Obfuscated BASIC contest should tell you
    > something.
    >
    >
    >




  11. #26
    Sjoerd Verweij Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET

    > No......that isn't it....you can write nasty BASIC code that is illegible
    > also...


    Well, even without obfuscation a C programmer can make you work 20 minutes
    at understanding a declaration like

    void (*p[10]) (void (*)());

    The first 5 at "what the **** is this", then 15 at "is this what we actually
    need".

    Nor does BASIC have stuff like (my C is rusty, just an illustration)
    while (++x << y-- != (f(), 2, null != X(++y)));
    x++;

    (notice the first semi-colon)

    Obfuscation only starts when you add stuff like
    #define << !=



  12. #27
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET

    On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:56:15 -0500, "Steve Dee"
    <Steve_Dee@md.prestige.net> wrote:

    >Patrick,
    >> say the C-style is the most cryptic I've encountered so far.

    >
    >I'm truly curious.....what's so cryptic about C-style? This might help me
    >with training some VB (only) people.


    I have written a few functions in C. It's painful, after working in
    BASIC. The curly braces, the need to put semicolons at the end of some
    lines, but not others, the pointers, the pointers to pointers, the
    ++before and the after++, the whole sorry perplexing confused mess of
    a few good ideas fighting for clarity that must have been designed by
    theorists who never understood the term "user friendly". C is probably
    the worst language of all time for being productive in.

    But don't let me put you off if you like it!

    MM

  13. #28
    Steve Dee Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET

    Sjoerd,
    > Well, even without obfuscation a C programmer can make you work 20 minutes
    > at understanding a declaration like
    >
    > void (*p[10]) (void (*)());
    >


    still a matter of style and the language in this case. I don't think this
    is an "Obfuscation" example.

    > Nor does BASIC have stuff like (my C is rusty, just an illustration)
    > while (++x << y-- != (f(), 2, null != X(++y)));
    > x++;


    Again....this is bad style....kill the C programmer before he mutates! And
    yeah, saw the first semicolon

    Yeah C is cryptic to those that do not know C. But VB is cryptic to some C
    programmers. Granted, a lot of C programmers think that it is "cute and
    cool and increases their manhood" if they can write their code in one line
    versus 2 or three. But It's pretty **** easy to write easily read code in
    either language. And guess what? Most C code is still going to get
    optimized down to the fastest way when it is compiled. I've had to pull
    assembler dumps to prove this to some of my old time C cronies. The while()
    line you wrote is just arrogant stupidity. C doesn't have to be cryptic to
    be efficient.




  14. #29
    Steve Dee Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET

    Mike,
    I'll say it again....it's a matter of where you are comming from. I
    love C/C++. I also love VB! C is definately more complex, but it's more
    powerful for some things. If you mess with pointers, you **** well better
    know what you are doing, but some try and mess with pointers in VB (ObjPtr,
    StrPtr, etc) and it generally is a mess. At least C is built for it. Most
    C++ programmers don't even know what a pointer is (Oh, this is going to
    hurt...I feel the flames already)....they are really just MFC programmers.
    You can be VERY productive with C/C++ if you know the language. But you
    have to know the language, and no, it's not as easy to pick up as VB. But,
    it's Very easy to pick up VB if you know C/C++! It's a trade off. I use
    the right tool for the job. Write a GUI in C/C++....that's insane! VB is
    every so much nicer......but writting under the cover type support? C/C++
    might be better. The debugger in VS is much, much better, and you can write
    COM using ATL almost as easily as with VB.

    > But don't let me put you off if you like it!


    Thanks I won't....but remember, I like VB also!




  15. #30
    Richard Curzon Guest

    Re: Why I like VB.NET

    2 nice quotes on this topic. (Guess the author, I'll tell you under the
    line below)

    "I don't see Java or C-sharp as being technically revolutionary or "from the
    ground up". Had Java fist been designed from technical principles, it
    wouldn't have the ugly and illogical C/C++ syntax."

    "New languages [Java, C-sharp] always proclaim their simplicity and denounce
    the needless complexities of older languages [C++]. Much of that
    "simplicity" is simply immaturity. A language's complexity comes from
    dealing with the rather nasty and varied complexities of the real world."

    ====

    Okay, you read that right? Read it now... okay... the auther works at AT&T,
    the home of C, the home of C++. In fact, the speaker is the creator of the
    C++ language himself. Yes the man whose initials are B.S. by pure
    coincidence I might add. It was found in the best Fawcette mag I've seen in
    years, the "Future of Software" Winter 2000/2001.

    Turns out, only the people who created the durn thing, and nobody else, can
    see anything questionable about this thing!

    Here're are more AT&T/Bell Lab engineers who can perceive the emperor's bare
    butt is hanging out!

    ** Andrew Koenig, "C Traps and Pitfalls", 1985. "The dangling else clause".
    Page 23, "Although this well known problem is not unique to C, it has bitten
    C programmers with many years experience".

    (Koenig can amend that clause now. It's "Not unique to C", nor C-sharp.
    The C-sharp team intentionally ignored this flaw and most others Stroustrup
    refers to.)

    ** Stanley Lippman, "C++ Primer" spends most a good chunk of paper carefully
    describing the problem page 94 in my copy.

    ====

    Now here's an example of a dangling else in a VB program.
    <oops, can't seem to do it in VB.>

    Okay, but we've all heard a VB programmer swearing about matching curly
    braces just like C programmers? Haven't we???

    There are people who look at floods and plagues and can only see the love
    and mercy of God...

    .... and there are people who look at C and don't see anything cryptic. They
    BADLY need to look at some of the alternatives!

    regards
    Richard.



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