Cancer of the semicolon

[John Proffitt]

"Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
>
>For me, there are two primary reasons I don't care for the C-style syntax....
>
>- Excessive use of symbols instead of English keywords
>- Use of brackets to dilineate all forms of scope instead of specific >keywords
for specific scopes
>

For programmers used to languages like COBOL, BASIC or Pascal, C and C++
do seem almost like something escaped from an algebra text. It's full of
strange symbols like '+=', '>>' and '!', operators like '++' that can be
prefixed or postfixed. It takes a while to learn how to parse it, let alone
understand it.

Once you get over the hump, though, you can develop an appreciation for the
terse, economical syntax. Brackets more than suffice in place of 'Begin...End'
syntax. After all, Python subsists on indentation alone.

To me, the biggest problem with C-style syntax is those semicolons. Having
started with BASIC myself, I can't get over the notion that the end of the
lexical line is best denoted by... a linefeed.

JBP

[Jonathan Wood]

John,

> To me, the biggest problem with C-style syntax is those semicolons.
Having
> started with BASIC myself, I can't get over the notion that the end of the
> lexical line is best denoted by... a linefeed.

From another perspective, VB requires you to type underscores when a
statement exceeds one line. That's one advantage to semi-colons: you can
break lines (even quoted strings) whereever you like.

Jonathan

[Patrick Troughton]

See, that's the funny thing, it's different things for different people. I
don't mind the semi-colon. In fact, when I'm writing JavaScript, I happily
add them in even though I know they're not required. I can't see any justification
for using && instead of And. Sure, it saves 1 keystroke - big deal. I'll
happily type an extra keystroke if it makes my code readabile. And of course,
using || instead of Or doesn't save me anything.

/Pat

"John Proffitt" <bogon@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>For programmers used to languages like COBOL, BASIC or Pascal, C and C++
>do seem almost like something escaped from an algebra text. It's full of
>strange symbols like '+=', '>>' and '!', operators like '++' that can be
>prefixed or postfixed. It takes a while to learn how to parse it, let alone
>understand it.
>
>Once you get over the hump, though, you can develop an appreciation for
the
>terse, economical syntax. Brackets more than suffice in place of 'Begin...End'
>syntax. After all, Python subsists on indentation alone.
>
>To me, the biggest problem with C-style syntax is those semicolons. Having
>started with BASIC myself, I can't get over the notion that the end of the
>lexical line is best denoted by... a linefeed.
>
>JBP
>

[William Cleveland]

Patrick Troughton wrote:
>
> See, that's the funny thing, it's different things for different people. I
> don't mind the semi-colon. In fact, when I'm writing JavaScript, I happily
> add them in even though I know they're not required. I can't see any justification
> for using && instead of And. Sure, it saves 1 keystroke - big deal. I'll
> happily type an extra keystroke if it makes my code readabile. And of course,
> using || instead of Or doesn't save me anything.
>
Actually, you don't save any typing, because you need the shift key...

Bill

[William Cleveland]

John Proffitt wrote:
>
> To me, the biggest problem with C-style syntax is those semicolons. Having
> started with BASIC myself, I can't get over the notion that the end of the
> lexical line is best denoted by... a linefeed.
>
Semicolons are ugly, but the " _" line continuation is just hideous.
I think the best way to do it would be to allow either a linefeed or
a semicolon to end a statement (the colon to conbine lines pretty much
does that in VB). Add to that, if a statement starts with a semicolon,
it has to end with one. That way, you wouldn't need a continuation for
every single line.

a = b + c + d + _
d + e + f + _
g + h + i + _
j + k + l + _
m

would become

; a = b + c + d +
d + e + f +
g + h + i +
j + k + l +
m;


Maybe my example isn't the greatest, but I think it would be better.
And it wouldn't bother you with remembering semicolons when you don't
get anything out of it.

Bill

[John Proffitt]

"Jonathan Wood" <jwood@softcircuits.com> wrote:
>
>From another perspective, VB requires you to type underscores when a
>statement exceeds one line. That's one advantage to semi-colons: you can
>break lines (even quoted strings) whereever you like.
>

I suppose it's a matter of style, but I seldom find a need to wrap a line
of VB code. Sometimes I do it just because it can be done:

msg$ = "Error " & CStr(Err) & " in " & Err.Source & vbLf _
& Err.Description

One can argue that this is more WYSIWYG. It's a long way from exceeding
the maximum length of a line in VB. People writing sample code for magazines
(or folks constrained to code in 640x480) do this a lot to avoid running
off the page (or screen). But with a reasonable screen resolution most lines
are amply visible, and I don't normally worry about the length.

In VB I use an indentation of two spaces for code blocks. This is enough
for clear demarcation of the block but doesn't cause nested blocks to jog
right too quickly. I could see tabbing over three spaces in C/C++ because
it takes two characters to begin a comment, but the default four-space indentation
in VB's IDE is too much.

People writing C and C++ often extend a function declaration over several
lines in order to individually document the parameters. I think this is
good practice, but VB won't let you insert a comment following a line continuation
character. You have to comment either above or below; having the capability
to break the line doesn't help.

John

[John Proffitt]

William Cleveland <WCleveland@Mediaone.Net> wrote:
>
>Actually, you don't save any typing, because you need the shift key...
>

As long as you're in the IDE, typing all lower (OR UPPER) case works. The
editor will fix it all pretty.

Unless it's an Enum. (Grr!)

John

[David A. Rothgery]

John Proffitt <bogon@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> William Cleveland <WCleveland@Mediaone.Net> wrote:
> >
> >Actually, you don't save any typing, because you need the shift key...
> >
>
> As long as you're in the IDE, typing all lower (OR UPPER) case works. The
> editor will fix it all pretty.

I think he was talking about in C/C++ (for && and || -- though 'and' and
'or' are valid C keywords now, I think).

--
Dave Rothgery
Picking nits since 1976
drothgery@myrealbox.com
http://drothgery.editthispage.com

[John Proffitt]

David A. Rothgery <drothgery@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>I think he was talking about in C/C++ (for && and || -- though 'and' and

>'or' are valid C keywords now, I think).
>

It's debatable. In general you would tend to save keystrokes in the language
that was not case sensitive. In practice it might be slightly easier to
hit a single key ('&' or '|') twice than to hunt for a different key on the
second stroke.

I know: picky, picky...

JBP

[Jason Thorn]

Is a line terminator even needed?

If all functions and subroutines are delimited by commas and enclosed within
parenthesis, and statements have a fixed number of operands, couldn't a
compiler tell what the end of the statement should be?

"William Cleveland" <WCleveland@Mediaone.Net> wrote in message
news:3A945A19.25802219@Mediaone.Net...
> John Proffitt wrote:
> >
> > To me, the biggest problem with C-style syntax is those semicolons.
Having
> > started with BASIC myself, I can't get over the notion that the end of
the
> > lexical line is best denoted by... a linefeed.
> >
> Semicolons are ugly, but the " _" line continuation is just hideous.
> I think the best way to do it would be to allow either a linefeed or
> a semicolon to end a statement (the colon to conbine lines pretty much
> does that in VB). Add to that, if a statement starts with a semicolon,
> it has to end with one. That way, you wouldn't need a continuation for
> every single line.
>
> a = b + c + d + _
> d + e + f + _
> g + h + i + _
> j + k + l + _
> m
>
> would become
>
> ; a = b + c + d +
> d + e + f +
> g + h + i +
> j + k + l +
> m;
>
>
> Maybe my example isn't the greatest, but I think it would be better.
> And it wouldn't bother you with remembering semicolons when you don't
> get anything out of it.
>
> Bill

[Jeff Peil]

"David A. Rothgery" <drothgery@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.14fe32431436dd18989698@news.devx.com...
>
> I think he was talking about in C/C++ (for && and || -- though 'and' and
> 'or' are valid C keywords now, I think).
>

In C, ISO646.H (which was added in C89 amendment 1) does define a set of
macros ("#define and &&", "#define or ||", etc) However those are not
keywords in C, they are preprocessor macros defined in a standard header
(that you'd need to explicitly include.).

C++ did make these alternative tokens (and thus reserved words), but C++ is
not C, and even in C++ there is a small distinction between the these
alternate tokens and keywords.

[Jonathan Allen]

> Once you get over the hump, though, you can develop an appreciation for
the
> terse, economical syntax.

That is not necessarily true. If you count tokens instead of characters, the
VB style is more compact that the C style.

Lets look at C# vs VB.Net and the If construct

C#: 6 Tokens
if ( x )
{
//code
}

VB.Net: 5 Tokens
If X Then
//code
End If

Now lets look at a compound if.

C#: 16 Tokens, 12 Lines
if ( x )
{
//code
}
else if ( y )
{
//code 2
}
else
{
//code 3
}


VB.Net: 9 Tokens, 7 Lines

If x Then
//code
ElseIf y Then
//code 2
Else
//code 3
End if




--
Jonathan Allen

[John Proffitt]

"Jonathan Allen" <greywolfcs@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>If you count tokens instead of characters, the VB style is more compact
>than the C style.
>

Interesting point.

Don't you think, given programmers of roughly equal skill in both languages,
and given a task that was doable in both languages, that it would be easier
to write mistake-free code in VB? It's much easier to hide bugs in C. That's
why you see those ads, "Can you spot the bug in this C code?"

John

[Steve Dee]

John,
the one problem I have with VB is "no semicolons"! Joking....that
seems to be the one mistake I always make (I use C/VB in tandem). I never
have problems with switching gears, except I always try and stick semicolons
in my VB code....dang it!

[Steve Dee]

Question.....what's the big deal about saving on typing? I require VB
programmers to put parens in If statements....ie.

if (LarryEllisonIsAPainInThButt()) then
debug.print "what else is new?"
end if

New programmers always complain....what's the deal? Can't anyone type fast
anymore?

"William Cleveland" <WCleveland@Mediaone.Net> wrote in message
news:3A945697.C1C26B0D@Mediaone.Net...
> Patrick Troughton wrote:
> >
> > See, that's the funny thing, it's different things for different people.
I
> > don't mind the semi-colon. In fact, when I'm writing JavaScript, I
happily
> > add them in even though I know they're not required. I can't see any
justification
> > for using && instead of And. Sure, it saves 1 keystroke - big deal. I'll
> > happily type an extra keystroke if it makes my code readabile. And of
course,
> > using || instead of Or doesn't save me anything.
> >
> Actually, you don't save any typing, because you need the shift key...
>
> Bill