Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB! - Page 2


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Thread: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!

  1. #16
    Dan Barclay Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!

    On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:44:09 -0700, "Jonny" <jonny@joyofvb.com> wrote:

    >Dan
    >
    >> However, I'm fairly certain I know how *developers* feel about having
    >> their code base trashed ..

    >
    >Oh yes, the famous 'code base' that we all hear so much about from the
    >reactionaries. I have been wondering about this but cannot for the life of
    >me see how this can be true.


    That's a real shame. Be careful your employer doesn't catch on. Most
    code owners like to believe (real or illusion) that their code assets
    can be reused.

    >In my experience the world of coding is always
    >moving and I am always learning, getting better.


    Good plan. Sometimes it's a good idea to rewrite something when you
    figure out a better way to do it. Keyphrase: "you figure out" If you
    find you always need to rewrite everything you do I suggest you find
    another line of work.

    >It seems that only
    >people/companies who are already standing still could possibly build and
    >then usefully use a code library.


    Yea, Microsoft is certainly stuck in the past don't you think?


    >> I suggest you learn something about that at some point.

    >
    >Hah, you betray yourself. This is your tired technique - you justify
    >yourself via fringe knowledge and put others down in the same way. For
    >example, above we see you attempting to define the boundaries of peer
    >knowledge as being the boundaries you know thus excluding me and so
    >'winning' the point. I honestly feel sorry for you, to be so ossified, or
    >maybe the word should be petrified.


    The difference between a coder and a developer has more to do with
    point of view than knowledge (peer or otherwise). I'm just a dumb ol'
    country boy and do not claim to be smarter than anyone else.
    Petrified? You've got to be kidding. We have, and are exploring,
    many options as "plan b" on this mess... as are many development
    houses.

    >> Maybe you should learn the language better then.

    >
    >And again, the same technique. Maybe I should learn more about VB-Classic,
    >as you suggest, but I make no claims to programming excellence and certainly
    >do not define my sense of worth via streams of cabalistic esoterica. I
    >suggest that you do define yourself in this way and that is the real reason
    >you are so prominant amongst the luddites and moaning minnies.


    You claim to know the language and be some sort of visionary on it.
    Somehow you offer up sample code, advice on what's "right" and
    pronounce that adhering to existing behavior is "wrong"... and yet
    don't understand the language? Interesting.

    >> Basic *only* has bitwise operators.

    >
    >Really, gosh. Now that is a suprise to me. So now all I need to find out
    >what a 'bitwise operator' is and we will be laughing. Its a miracle I have
    >gotten this far without knowing this exssentail fact don't you think?


    Miracle it is.

    >Dan, every statement you make backs up my point. Why don't you relax the
    >knot in your stomach and just accept the world is dynamic, you cannot
    >control the ocean so let it wash over you. Learn the new stuff then come
    >back and soon you will be a Guru again. Your incessant whining does nothing
    >except convince many people you are a not fit for the new environment.


    I'm not a Guru, nor do I make my living being a Guru. I make my
    living as a developer with what you would consider to be a
    non-existent code library.

    >> Dunno about database front ends. Never did one.
    >> I seem to spend all my time on business apps.

    >
    >Business that don't use databases I presume.


    As a matter of fact, yes. Well, if you want to be technical we do
    store some data occasionally but we're not what you'd call a database
    front end. Scary thought, but I don't speak SQL.

    >You really are clutching at straws to make your points now aren't you. I
    >take it you deny that the majority of VB work is concerned with 2/3 tier
    >business applications? Perhaps in your world VB coders all sit hunched over
    >their Lab desks worrying over the QBit super-imposition states - heh.


    You seem to believe that there is a single description of VB
    applications, and of developers. With 6/7/5 million (depending on
    which number you pick) there are a lot of VB users of nearly every
    flavor. Someone, somewhere, is probably hunched over a lab desk at
    this very moment.

    Dan
    Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    (#6)

  2. #17
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!


    Hi Dan,

    Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:

    >Most
    >code owners like to believe (real or illusion) that their code assets
    >can be reused.


    Your current code base is no more or less reusable than any other code written
    in any other version MS BASIC.

    Was your PDS BASIC code 100% compatabile with 16-bit VB? No.
    Was your VBDOS code 100% compatabile with 16-bit VB? No.
    Was your 16-bit VB code 100% compatabile with 32-bit VB? No.

    So why do you expect your VB code to be 100% compatabile with VB.NET?

    /Pat

    Blinders are a *feature* that I wish Dan Barclay did not have!

  3. #18
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!


    Hi Dan,

    Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:
    >On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:44:09 -0700, "Jonny" <jonny@joyofvb.com> wrote:
    >
    >If you
    >find you always need to rewrite everything you do I suggest you find
    >another line of work.


    If you're not willing to keep up with change, you're the one who needs to
    find another line of work. If there's one thing that's constant in the IT
    field, it's change.

    It's a good thing people like you weren't around thirty years ago otherwise
    we'd still be using punchcards.

    /Pat
    Punchcards are a *standard* (Dan Barclay's Battle Cry 30 Years Ago)

  4. #19
    Jacob Grass Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!

    > It's a good thing people like you weren't around thirty years ago
    otherwise
    > we'd still be using punchcards.
    >
    > /Pat
    > Punchcards are a *standard* (Dan Barclay's Battle Cry 30 Years Ago)


    Heh. . . I did Y2K testing at a large financial institution that still used
    punchcards. They had to get rid of the whole system because it was not Y2K
    compliant. it was replaced with a small VB program. . . .



  5. #20
    Dan Barclay Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!

    On 12 Apr 2001 14:21:46 -0700, "Patrick Troughton"
    <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:

    >
    >If you're not willing to keep up with change, you're the one who needs to
    >find another line of work. If there's one thing that's constant in the IT
    >field, it's change.


    No kidding?

    >It's a good thing people like you weren't around thirty years ago otherwise
    >we'd still be using punchcards.


    Actually, I was one of the "early adopters" of the teletype. In
    college you had to beg for a special account that allowed you to sign
    on with tty. Kinda cool... you got to route your printout to the comp
    center and just walk in, go to the head of the line, and pick it up.

    Of course I did learn, the hard way, that their backups didn't always
    work. After recovery of the disaster I routed all the source to a
    card punch. I kept those boxes of cards under my bed for quite some
    time.

    So, yea, I like the high tech stuff myself. That doesn't mean you
    hafta blindly trust it though. Somehow I made it this far in
    relatively good shape. Kind of amazing, eh?

    I will admit, though, that carrying around this card reader with my
    notebook is beginning to be a drag.

    Dan
    Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    (#6)

  6. #21
    Sjoerd Verweij Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!

    > Whether or not you want to spar with Dan, Do you think any of these
    changes
    > will hurt your move to VB.Net, and if so, which change and how?


    Kathleen,

    Since you seem to be collection opinions, let me try to phrase my feelings
    on the subject after calming down (a bit).

    - Yes, these changes will hurt my move.

    - All changes.

    - While they can all be worked around, the problems are more of a subjective
    nature, namely:

    - It is a great opportunity lost to correct silly behavior
    - It will not even closely achieve its stated purposes
    - Is a thinly veiled requirement from the Upgrade Wizard group
    - Detracts from the language's internal consistency
    - Detracts from the language interoperability
    - Steepens the learning curve
    - Allows for hard-to-find bugs
    (and don't anyone dare use the copy-paste bugs line again)
    - Detracts from the image of VB.NET
    - Will drive its most experienced potential users away
    - Will leave it with a somewhat less than proficient user base
    - Will relegate it to the actual toy language it has been accused of
    being

    For the longest time, there wasn't all that much of an alternative (sure,
    Delphi -- but getting used the Borland way of doing things makes for way too
    much banging-head-into-wall). Now, there is: C#.

    Note: most of the noted points are still more sentiment than hard fact. But
    don't underestimate the power of sentiment: it's what keeps Java alive



  7. #22
    Dan Barclay Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!

    On 12 Apr 2001 14:09:05 -0700, "Patrick Troughton"
    <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:

    >Your current code base is no more or less reusable than any other code written
    >in any other version MS BASIC.


    Bull. You have no idea what you're talking about.

    >Was your PDS BASIC code 100% compatabile with 16-bit VB? No.
    >Was your VBDOS code 100% compatabile with 16-bit VB? No.


    Nearly so, but I did have some changes to make. However, after making
    those changes *in the DOS versions* the code was compatible in both.
    I had even used the Btrieve record manager in anticipation of the move
    to another environment (they're multi environment). One of the few
    differences (handled by wrappers) was a slight difference in their
    Call statement. Ops and parameters were the same though.

    As I've said before, from a language standpoint there have been 3
    primary change points in the core language. Almost none (except for
    extensions) from 8 bit CP/M versions until VB1. With VB1 there were
    some system related changes and a few gratituous changes (SWAP, DATA,
    READ, FIELD, CVx(), MKx$(), etc). The second change point was with
    VB4:

    >Was your 16-bit VB code 100% compatabile with 32-bit VB? No.


    There was a huge mess with the $tring data type and a couple of other
    things. **** was duly raised, and there were communications with MS
    in which they convinced us that they "got it" and wouldn't pull that
    kind of crap again.

    >So why do you expect your VB code to be 100% compatabile with VB.NET?


    I expect it to be 100% compatible except where it cannot be
    compatible. Reason I expect it? Gullible. See previous paragraph.
    But, here we are with a 3rd major change point and this one puts them
    all to shame.

    Dan
    Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    (#6)

  8. #23
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!

    Kathleen,

    >Jonny ...


    Hey, shutup woman and pass me the popcorn! :-)


    ---
    Ice Z - Straight Outta Redmond

  9. #24
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!

    On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:01:34 -0500, Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:

    >With VB1 there were
    >some system related changes and a few gratituous changes (SWAP, DATA,
    >READ, FIELD, CVx(), MKx$(), etc).


    I guess your apps don't have a UI in addition to not having a database.
    Hmm, so what do they have?


    ---
    Ice Z - Straight Outta Redmond

  10. #25
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!


    Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:
    >On 12 Apr 2001 14:09:05 -0700, "Patrick Troughton"
    >With VB1 there were
    >some system related changes and a few gratituous changes (SWAP, DATA,
    >READ, FIELD, CVx(), MKx$(), etc).


    You mean VB1 had gratituous changes and yet we all survived?! Goodness gracious!
    How can this be?!?!?

    I think you've proved my point. Why don't you run along and play with all
    the other script kiddies....

    /Pat
    Punchcards are a *standard* (Dan Barclay's battle cry 30 years ago)


  11. #26
    Dan Barclay Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!

    On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 23:05:10 GMT, zane@mabry.com (Zane Thomas) wrote:

    >On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:01:34 -0500, Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:
    >
    >>With VB1 there were
    >>some system related changes and a few gratituous changes (SWAP, DATA,
    >>READ, FIELD, CVx(), MKx$(), etc).

    >
    >I guess your apps don't have a UI in addition to not having a database.
    >Hmm, so what do they have?


    Well, for one thing I considered the UI stuff to be system related (as
    mentioned above). I suppose I could have left the "Print" statements
    alone but... naaa.. I think you have to count those as system
    related.

    But, since you mentioned it, there was clearly a rewrite of the UI
    stuff. OTOH, the business specific code was separated from the UI
    stuff from the outset.

    Creating the UI was relatively painless. But, you knew that.

    Dan
    Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    (#6)

  12. #27
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!

    On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 18:21:15 -0500, Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:

    >But, since you mentioned it, there was clearly a rewrite of the UI
    >stuff.


    Yep ... hey, don't you think you have enough trouble today without getting
    into it with me too? Sorry for intruding, I'm still waiting for Kathleen
    to pass me the popcorn.


    ---
    Ice Z - Straight Outta Redmond

  13. #28
    Dan Barclay Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!

    On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 23:27:12 GMT, zane@mabry.com (Zane Thomas) wrote:

    >On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 18:21:15 -0500, Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:
    >
    >>But, since you mentioned it, there was clearly a rewrite of the UI
    >>stuff.

    >
    >Yep ... hey, don't you think you have enough trouble today without getting
    >into it with me too?


    Probably a waste of both our time. FWIW, I've always separated "code"
    from "UI" mentally so you'll catch me on that fairly regularly. Maybe
    that's why I tend to separate it physically in my apps. Dunno, seems
    the natural way to look at it to me.

    >Sorry for intruding, I'm still waiting for Kathleen
    >to pass me the popcorn.


    LOL Yea, sorry I'm going to have to miss out, too. Hope your popcorn
    doesn't go stale, but I'll be offline a few days.

    I'm just so happy to have Jonny watching over me.

    Dan
    Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    (#6)

  14. #29
    Jonny Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!

    Kathleen

    > Whether or not you want to spar with Dan.


    I don't want to, I am but a lowly VB coder and not up to sparring with the
    cognoscenti, but Jimminy-Willickers, somebody's got to do it or he will just
    keep going on and on and on.

    > Do you think any of these changes
    > will hurt your move to VB.Net, and if so, which change and how?


    What changes? There was this language called VB and now there is a language
    called dotnet. I loved VB and now I am learning to love dotnet. I am a one
    language kind of a guy and so making comparisons is just not in my nature.

    But I guess what my 'point' really amounts to is this: So far my experience
    with dotnet has been:

    1). Open up the IDE
    2). Whooah
    3). Wheeee
    4). Hmmm
    5). Oh boy

    There is so much that is new, vast undulating plains of novelty. The power!
    Can you feel it? It makes me go a little crazy. And then I come up here to
    share my joy only to find a NG ruled by tinpot dictators and self-styled
    harbingers of Doom. Why is nobody telling these boring moaners to shut up?
    What is wrong with y'all that you are not having a party. I do not
    understand it.

    So if you want me to stop my roller-coaster of learning and start nitpicking
    over some trivial detail so that I can look good in front of my friends then
    fair enough, but I know you don't really - I know you want to have a party
    too.

    Hang on - I think I may be bordering on discussing dotnet here and I know
    Patrick does not like that so I better shut up (or maybe its saying '****'
    he doesn't like, there are so many rules I just get plain confused).

    Jonny







  15. #30
    Jonny Guest

    Re: Bad programming practices encouraged.... namely VB!

    Zane

    > Hey, shutup woman and pass me the popcorn! :-)


    You forgot to tag your statement with a reference to BitDancing and so, as
    Patrick's self-appointed moral assistant I suggest you take your dirty-birdy
    potty-mouth to the Off-Ramp where people like you belong.

    <dotnet_releveance>
    True = 1
    </dotnet_releveance>

    Jonny



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