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Thread: Brain Washing

  1. #61
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Brain Washing

    Dan,

    >The question is *how* you pass them around.


    Huh? You think that passing things to methods will change in some way? I
    suppose it could, but there would be a good reason for it.

    >> Also, I don't see any
    >>major changes in approaches to programming on the horizon - but when such
    >>a change comes, and it will eventually,

    >
    >If it were to come because of some driving force and/or need it would
    >be fine.


    It did, and it is.


    --
    The nice thing about standards is that
    there are so many of them to choose from.

  2. #62
    Dan Barclay Guest

    Re: Brain Washing

    On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:03:32 -0400, "Ian R" <ianr@na.net> wrote:

    >
    >"Dan Barclay" <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote in message
    >news:mrocptkc60uqfsgdunnfl0a2i894sbh97t@4ax.com...
    >>
    >> As to passing structures or objects, some of the long parameter lists
    >> use different combinations of parameters depending on context. While
    >> I could reduce the length of the list, it would still be a list.
    >> Helpful but not a solution.
    >>

    >
    >This is where overloaded methods would be useful, no ?


    Not really in this case. The data types don't change, just the
    collection of parameters. I have no desire to write more than one
    method (the proc is the same).

    Still, the fundamental problem is the demise of a (code only)
    container that shares variables with the calling procedure. There is
    always some way to rewrite... the idea is to write the code *once* and
    not have to rewrite it. VB is apparently not intended for that
    audience.

    Dan
    Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    (#6)

  3. #63
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Brain Washing

    On Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:59:22 -0500, Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:

    >I don't see greener grass in any of the corners (including .net). I'm
    >just making sure there is a gate in all the fences (and have a key) so
    >I can get somewhere if this one dries up. If you wanna stick your
    >head through the fence, go ahead. I'll watch.


    I don't think there's much point trying to persuade Zane and his pals
    in the VB.NET laager to recognise the balls-up that is taking place as
    I write this. A perfectly good and usable computer language - in fact,
    the most usable certainly in the past ten years - is arbitrarily
    replaced by some as yet unreleased C# clone with Basic-like syntax,
    and Zane et al think they know best.

    Faced with a brick wall, you might as well pack up your bags and go
    home. Leave them in their laager, is what I say.

    MM

  4. #64
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Brain Washing

    On Thu, 06 Sep 2001 19:27:23 GMT, kylix_is@hotmail.com (Mike Mitchell)
    wrote:

    > A perfectly good and usable computer language


    .... is evolving into something better.


    --
    The nice thing about standards is that
    there are so many of them to choose from.

  5. #65
    Rob Teixeira Guest

    Re: Brain Washing


    Aren't you moving to Delphi or something?

    And if you truly are, that is to say - you're not just all talk about the
    move simply because you're pissed at MS, i think you'll find that Delphi
    is far more similar to VB.NET than VB6. I'm not sure what grass you're looking
    at or what fence you have your head stuck in.

    -Rob

    kylix_is@hotmail.com (Mike Mitchell) wrote:
    >On Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:59:22 -0500, Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:
    >
    >I don't think there's much point trying to persuade Zane and his pals
    >in the VB.NET laager to recognise the balls-up that is taking place as
    >I write this. A perfectly good and usable computer language - in fact,
    >the most usable certainly in the past ten years - is arbitrarily
    >replaced by some as yet unreleased C# clone with Basic-like syntax,
    >and Zane et al think they know best.
    >
    >Faced with a brick wall, you might as well pack up your bags and go
    >home. Leave them in their laager, is what I say.
    >
    >MM



  6. #66
    Cali LaFollett Guest

    Re: Brain Washing

    > And if you truly are, that is to say - you're not just all talk about the
    > move simply because you're pissed at MS, i think you'll find that Delphi
    > is far more similar to VB.NET than VB6. I'm not sure what grass you're

    looking
    > at or what fence you have your head stuck in.
    >
    > -Rob


    Actually Rob, you are pretty close to correct. I am not sure if it is VB =
    Delphi so much as it is the MS .NET Framework = Borland's VCL (Visual
    Component Library) though. From my understanding, the guy that was in charge
    of creating the VCL was also one of the top designers of the .NET Framework.
    Please correct me if I am wrong though.

    There a quite a few similarities to the object names such as the new ADO
    "DataSet". "DataSet" is a term that has been used by Borland since the onset
    of the VCL. Many of the other classes and function names are very similar
    too.

    Not that this matters much but thought I would provide a little substance to
    your claim. Just a spectator at this point! :-)

    --
    Regards,
    Cal



  7. #67
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Brain Washing

    On 6 Sep 2001 13:29:06 -0700, "Rob Teixeira" <RobTeixeira@@msn.com> wrote:

    >or what fence you have your head stuck in


    Ok boys, take it to the offramp! :-)


    --
    The nice thing about standards is that
    there are so many of them to choose from.

  8. #68
    Dan Barclay Guest

    Re: Brain Washing

    Rob,

    This message is so deep in the thread I can't tell if you're asking MM
    or me <g>. I'll answer anyway.

    On 6 Sep 2001 13:29:06 -0700, "Rob Teixeira" <RobTeixeira@@msn.com>
    wrote:

    >Aren't you moving to Delphi or something?


    Define "moving".

    If you mean: Are we releasing our products under Delphi/Kylix, the
    answer is that we haven't made a decision to do that.

    If you mean: Are we converting our apps to Delphi for evaluation, the
    answer is yes.

    >And if you truly are, that is to say - you're not just all talk about the
    >move simply because you're pissed at MS


    Hmmm... being pissed is simply a state, it isn't a reason to move.

    We're looking for the best home for our product for the foreseeable
    future. Could be VBClassic, could be Delphi/Kylix, could be C++,
    could be C#... not likely to be VB.net but we never say never. We're
    in business and that's what drives our decisions.

    >, i think you'll find that Delphi
    >is far more similar to VB.NET than VB6.


    Apparently something makes you think I don't like .net concepts. For
    the millionth time: I'm not anti-dotnet. We may very well end up
    there if it gets critical mass in our delivery environment.

    The "feature" missing from VB.net is Language Stability. My concern
    with it has nothing to do with the .net part. The simple fact that
    we're going to be able to move to Delphi more easily than to VB.net
    kinda illustrates that point.

    Likewise, I'm not anti-Linux either <g>.

    >I'm not sure what grass you're looking
    >at or what fence you have your head stuck in.


    My head is stuck in my own pasture right now (VBClassic) but I'm
    making sure I have gates open to others.

    We have real paying customers using real apps in the real world. You
    don't stay in that game by doing something stupid like ruling out
    potential options. You do just the opposite. When it looks like one
    of the doors is closing, even if 5 or more years down the road, you
    make sure you are ready for it well ahead of time. As I always have.

    Dan
    Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    (#6)

  9. #69
    Dan Barclay Guest

    Re: Brain Washing

    On Thu, 06 Sep 2001 21:02:05 GMT, zane@mabry.com (Zane Thomas) wrote:

    >On 6 Sep 2001 13:29:06 -0700, "Rob Teixeira" <RobTeixeira@@msn.com> wrote:
    >
    >>or what fence you have your head stuck in

    >
    >Ok boys, take it to the offramp! :-)


    LOL. For the record, he said "fence" plain as day.

    Dan <g>
    Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    (#6)

  10. #70
    Cali LaFollett Guest

    Re: Brain Washing

    Dan,

    He was replying to MM on that last post. :-) Don't think it was intended for
    you.
    --
    Regards,
    Cal



  11. #71
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Brain Washing

    On Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:42:45 -0500, Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:

    >LOL. For the record, he said "fence" plain as day.


    Ooops, my bad. :-)


    --
    The nice thing about standards is that
    there are so many of them to choose from.

  12. #72
    Jonathan Allen Guest

    Re: Brain Washing

    > . A perfectly good and usable computer language

    Good - Yes
    Perfect - Definitely Not

    --
    Jonathan Allen


    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:3b96b601.12971931@news.devx.com...
    > On Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:59:22 -0500, Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:
    >
    > >I don't see greener grass in any of the corners (including .net). I'm
    > >just making sure there is a gate in all the fences (and have a key) so
    > >I can get somewhere if this one dries up. If you wanna stick your
    > >head through the fence, go ahead. I'll watch.

    >
    > I don't think there's much point trying to persuade Zane and his pals
    > in the VB.NET laager to recognise the balls-up that is taking place as
    > I write this. A perfectly good and usable computer language - in fact,
    > the most usable certainly in the past ten years - is arbitrarily
    > replaced by some as yet unreleased C# clone with Basic-like syntax,
    > and Zane et al think they know best.
    >
    > Faced with a brick wall, you might as well pack up your bags and go
    > home. Leave them in their laager, is what I say.
    >
    > MM




  13. #73
    Ian R Guest

    Re: Brain Washing


    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:3b96b601.12971931@news.devx.com...
    >
    > I don't think there's much point trying to persuade Zane and his pals
    > in the VB.NET laager to recognise the balls-up that is taking place as
    > I write this. A perfectly good and usable computer language - in fact,


    A good and usable language that's not perfect.

    > the most usable certainly in the past ten years - is arbitrarily
    > replaced by some as yet unreleased C# clone with Basic-like syntax,


    Has evolved into a good and usable language that has been improved.
    VB.NET isn't a C# clone. It's syntax is still pretty much the same as VB6.

    > and Zane et al think they know best.
    >


    Considering that you haven't even installed it, haven't read the
    documentation, turned off the VB.NET video after 3 minutes, and probally
    haven't even finished that single VB.NET book that you received ...

    > Faced with a brick wall, you might as well pack up your bags and go
    > home. Leave them in their laager, is what I say.
    >


    The only brick wall I see is that composed of all the bricks in that so
    called mind of yours. Perhaps when you've actually tried the product enough
    to have an informed opinion instead of blindly believing all the rants
    produced by the .NOTs, you can actually contribute something to the
    conversation.



  14. #74
    David Bayley Guest

    Re: Brain Washing

    Dan,

    > We're looking for the best home for our product for the foreseeable
    > future. Could be VBClassic, could be Delphi/Kylix, could be C++,
    > could be C#... not likely to be VB.net but we never say never.


    You appear to be putting too much emphasis on the language (and it's
    stability), as opposed to the framework IMO.

    Borland have 2 frameworks currently, VCL and CLX, and are hinting at
    supporting CLR in the future with Delphi 7. It will be easy to port a
    VB.NET app to C# (since language syntax is trivial), just as it will be easy
    to port a Kylix CLX app to Delphi6 CLX.

    The problem is that VB's Thunder is fading, and it's time to move on to a
    new framework. IMO, it would be madness to port to VCL, since that too is
    old and tired. The choice that needs to be made, by both Thunder and VCL
    users, is whether to go for CLR or CLX, or just fork it all and put a 'J' in
    front of every class name.

    --
    David.




  15. #75
    Cali LaFollett Guest

    Re: Brain Washing

    > The problem is that VB's Thunder is fading, and it's time to move on to a
    > new framework. IMO, it would be madness to port to VCL, since that too is
    > old and tired. The choice that needs to be made, by both Thunder and VCL
    > users, is whether to go for CLR or CLX, or just fork it all and put a 'J'

    in
    > front of every class name.


    David,

    Please don't be mistaken by the new name CLX. Please see this:
    http://www.borland.com/kylix/faqs.html#clx

    The CLX is Borlands way of "Write once, compile on many platforms". The CLX
    is based off of Linux/Unix based QT and is not native Windows. It is only
    there right now so that you can develop in Windows and take that same code
    to Linux and compile it and vice versa. Nothing more, nothing less. It is
    actually a very similar to the VCL in naming convention just different in
    the internals is all.

    FWIW, the .NET framework is very similar to Borlands VCL in many regards so
    does this mean that the .NET Framework is "old and tired" too? Just curious.
    --
    Regards,
    Cal




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