More on Visual J#.Net


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  1. #1
    Jim Pragit Guest

    More on Visual J#.Net


  2. #2
    max caber Guest

    Re: More on Visual J#.Net


    Visual J# sounds like the worst of both worlds. C# has nicer features then
    Java when it comes to the language (properties, enums, events, etc.) and
    the Java API is known and supported by millions of developers, where I doubt
    any one is comfortable with over 50% of the .NET API at this time.

    Visual J# combines the Java language with the largely unknown .NET API.
    Do it the other way around and it would be the best platform possible in
    2001: C# with the Java API.

  3. #3
    Ed Courtenay Guest

    Re: More on Visual J#.Net

    I would be very suprised if Visual J# was being pushed as anything other
    than a tool for migrating existing code to the .NET framework - I don't
    think you'll find many people using this for new development work.

    For any existing code to work, it will have to call 'native' .NET functions
    via the java class library abstractions, which will slow stuff down
    somewhat - but if you have a large JDK 1.1.x investment then it makes
    porting a breeze.

    --
    Ed Courtenay
    http://www.edcourtenay.co.uk
    ((wrong && wrong) != right)

    "max caber" <maxcaber@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:3bc476e3$1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > Visual J# sounds like the worst of both worlds. C# has nicer features

    then
    > Java when it comes to the language (properties, enums, events, etc.) and
    > the Java API is known and supported by millions of developers, where I

    doubt
    > any one is comfortable with over 50% of the .NET API at this time.
    >
    > Visual J# combines the Java language with the largely unknown .NET API.
    > Do it the other way around and it would be the best platform possible in
    > 2001: C# with the Java API.




  4. #4
    Rob Teixeira Guest

    Re: More on Visual J#.Net



    FWIW: it looks like the core Java CL is included with J# as wrappers to .NET
    (albiet v1.1, not 2.0).
    However, I agree. J# seems to be the VB DOS of the .NET world - IOW, a tool
    to get programmers from one platform to the other.

    With regards to the other point, I personally find the .NET CL much better
    organized, and more functional than the Java CL, so I'm not sure I would
    like to use a .NET language with a Java CL interface.

    -Rob

    "Ed Courtenay" <ed@edcourtenay.co.uk> wrote:
    >I would be very suprised if Visual J# was being pushed as anything other
    >than a tool for migrating existing code to the .NET framework - I don't
    >think you'll find many people using this for new development work.
    >
    >For any existing code to work, it will have to call 'native' .NET functions
    >via the java class library abstractions, which will slow stuff down
    >somewhat - but if you have a large JDK 1.1.x investment then it makes
    >porting a breeze.
    >
    >--
    >Ed Courtenay
    >http://www.edcourtenay.co.uk
    >((wrong && wrong) != right)
    >
    >"max caber" <maxcaber@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    >news:3bc476e3$1@news.devx.com...
    >>
    >> Visual J# sounds like the worst of both worlds. C# has nicer features

    >then
    >> Java when it comes to the language (properties, enums, events, etc.) and
    >> the Java API is known and supported by millions of developers, where I

    >doubt
    >> any one is comfortable with over 50% of the .NET API at this time.
    >>
    >> Visual J# combines the Java language with the largely unknown .NET API.
    >> Do it the other way around and it would be the best platform possible

    in
    >> 2001: C# with the Java API.

    >
    >



  5. #5
    max caber Guest

    Re: More on Visual J#.Net


    Rob Teixeira <RobTeixeira@@msn.com> wrote:
    I personally find the .NET CL much better
    organized, and more functional than the Java CL

    Rob,
    I am having a hard time learning the .NET CL because the online help, MSDN
    is the best example of bloatware that I have ever come across. VB5, and
    SQL 7 had great documentation. It was small, fast, easy to navigate and
    contained plenty of examples. Another example of great documentation can
    be found at: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/ap...w-summary.html

    I just searched for something on my VS help and got the error: "Please Insert
    Disk Labeled Visual Studio....." To bad I left that disk at home today.

    The other thing to fear is MS's history of changing API's no sooner than
    it takes to learn them. (This is great for my busininess, I am a trainer)
    I am still teaching VB6 classes where they refer to ADO as "Universal Data
    Access". Now there is ADO+ or ADO.NET or whatever they call it has replaced
    ADO. Before that it was DAO and RDO. Based on past history, how long do
    you think most developers think MS will support the .NET CL?

  6. #6
    Rob Teixeira Guest

    Re: More on Visual J#.Net


    "max caber" <maxcaber@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >
    >Rob,
    >I am having a hard time learning the .NET CL because the online help, MSDN
    >is the best example of bloatware that I have ever come across.


    Ha! I'm going to have a very hard time arguing with you there
    Not that the MSDN software itself is bloatware, but there certainly is an
    ENORMOUS amoung of content.

    >VB5, and
    >SQL 7 had great documentation. It was small, fast, easy to navigate and
    >contained plenty of examples. Another example of great documentation can
    >be found at: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/ap...w-summary.html


    Agreed. But i think that in all these cases, the docs were limited and focused
    only on one product. MSDN in general is pretty much documentation for all
    Windows development. It's a double-edged sword in a sense. On one hand I
    can complain that it can be difficult to find something until you get used
    to the layout of topics, but on the other hand, it's also convenient to have
    all that material in one place. I remember trying to find development documentation
    for OS/2... I'll take MSDN over that any day

    >The other thing to fear is MS's history of changing API's no sooner than
    >it takes to learn them. (This is great for my busininess, I am a trainer)
    > I am still teaching VB6 classes where they refer to ADO as "Universal Data
    >Access". Now there is ADO+ or ADO.NET or whatever they call it has replaced
    >ADO. Before that it was DAO and RDO. Based on past history, how long do
    >you think most developers think MS will support the .NET CL?


    There's an important difference here. The API themselves rarely change all
    that much (with the exception of ADO), but one CL is substituted for another.
    However, with the .NET CL being the core for all .NET development - and even
    other parts of the .NET CL itself, I don't see that happening any time soon.
    In addition, you would still be able to bind to specific versions of the
    runtime.

    -Rob


  7. #7
    simon Guest

    Re: More on Visual J#.Net

    The download link is http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/jsharp/beta.asp .
    Check it out.

    simon.


    "Jim Pragit" <NoSpam@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
    news:3bc44bb0$1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > Microsoft takes new tack on Java
    >
    > http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200...html?tag=mn_hd




  8. #8
    Who Cares? Guest

    Re: More on Visual J#.Net

    "max caber" <maxcaber@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:3bc4986e$1@news.devx.com...
    >
    > ADO. Before that it was DAO and RDO. Based on past history, how long do
    > you think most developers think MS will support the .NET CL?



    MS will support it until about 50 microseconds after
    Java is dead. MS has no allegiance to anyone and
    will use their own customers as human bombs
    against Sun and IBM.

    Microsoft - the Bin Laden of software.

    Luckily, the Justice department has finally decided
    to launch _Operation Enduring API_ by knocking
    MS out of court.

    http://www.eweek.com/article/0,3658,...3D16070,00.asp

    Europeans, too, have signed up to a coalition with
    America to fight the battle against Software Terrorism.
    http://www.wired.com/news/antitrust/...,47448,00.html




  9. #9
    Jeff Pipes Guest

    Re: More on Visual J#.Net


    "Who Cares?" <venetian7@home.net> wrote:
    > Microsoft - the Bin Laden of software.


    You are a moron.

    -Jeff

  10. #10
    Sean Scally Guest

    Re: More on Visual J#.Net



    Please Do Not Feed The Troll.

    -Who Cares' Keeper-

    "Who Cares?" <venetian7@home.net> wrote:
    >
    > MS will support it until about 50 microseconds after
    > Java is dead. MS has no allegiance to anyone and
    > will use their own customers as human bombs
    > against Sun and IBM.
    >
    > Microsoft - the Bin Laden of software.
    >
    > Luckily, the Justice department has finally decided
    > to launch _Operation Enduring API_ by knocking
    > MS out of court.
    >



  11. #11
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: More on Visual J#.Net

    > I just searched for something on my VS help and got the error:
    > "Please Insert Disk Labeled Visual Studio..." Too bad I left that
    > disk at home today.


    Max: FYI, you can avoid the above message by installing all or part of the
    MSDN Library to your local hard disk.
    ---
    Phil Weber



  12. #12
    maxcaber Guest

    Re: More on Visual J#.Net


    Phil wrote,
    "Max: FYI, you can avoid the above message by installing all or part of the
    MSDN Library to your local hard disk."

    Phil,
    Your hard disk must be bigger than mine!!!!!!!!!




  13. #13
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: More on Visual J#.Net

    > Your hard disk must be bigger than mine!

    Max: Well, I have 19GB on my laptop and 10GB on my desktop, but the MSDN
    Library CD only contains 650MB of data.
    ---
    Phil Weber



  14. #14
    Jason Guest

    Re: More on Visual J#.Net


    >Before that it was DAO and RDO. Based on past history, how long do
    >you think most developers think MS will support the .NET CL?


    Actually, all those technologies you mentioned are still around and still
    work fine. There are numerous ways to access databases in Windows, and each
    new technology is better than the last, but they all stay around forever.
    This makes the OS bigger, but it also ensures that your old software will
    continue to work.

    Microsoft has a great reputation for maintaining backward compatibility.
    Most stuff written from VB4 on (with the exception of 16 bit controls -
    UGGHHH!) will work with VB6. There are thousands of APIs that are around
    from Windows 2.0 just to maintain backward compatibility. If Microsoft is
    to be faulted, it is because they tend to hold on to obsolete things nearly
    forever! If I am not mistaken, 16 bit applications will still run on NT
    machines.

    The .NET framework seems to me to be well structured and thought out over
    a long time. It is also being introduced in one monolithic drop, which means
    that Microsoft is able to change it in ways that will break compatibility
    right up to the official delivery of VS7. This is unlike the Java framework,
    which has evolved over many years. Have you looked at the basic file manipulation
    objects? If you delete a file, it returns True if the operation succeeded
    - HELLOOOOOO, use an EXCEPTION! But it is that way because it was written
    a long time ago by a programmer who had been plucked from the C/C++ world,
    and now lots of code depends on it.

    .NET has a big learning curve, but once you get familiar with it, all kinds
    of development is going to be a lot easier than it ever was before.

    The question you should be asking is not, "How long will it be before Microsoft
    gives up these silly new ideas," but, "Why did Microsoft devote its entire
    corporation to developing .NET?" The answer has something to do with some
    of the disadvantages of statically compiling code, and the direction of programming
    (web, dynamic updates, zero-impact installations, etc.), from single-user
    machines to networks of thick-client applications that must be centrally
    managed.

    There are simply things that Microsoft needed to be able to do that traditional
    VB and C++ programming could not touch. That is why .NET is here, that is
    why Microsoft bet the company on it, and that is why it will still be here
    when VB6 is a memory and C++ is only used by metalheads for ring 0 programming.

  15. #15
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: More on Visual J#.Net

    On 11 Oct 2001 15:46:35 -0700, "Jason"
    <jason@creative_nospam_corp.com> wrote:

    >There are simply things that Microsoft needed to be able to do that traditional
    >VB and C++ programming could not touch. That is why .NET is here, that is
    >why Microsoft bet the company on it, and that is why it will still be here
    >when VB6 is a memory and C++ is only used by metalheads for ring 0 programming.


    So how do you intend to convince the three million classic VB
    programmers to dump their religion overnight and become converted to
    another faith. For that's what it amounts to. You'd have more luck
    converting them to Pascal. Oh, wait a mo, that's what many are gonna
    be doing anyways!

    MM

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