MS, AT&T, IBM

[Mike Mitchell]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 04:37:12 -0800, "Phil Weber"
<pweberonline@fawcette.com> wrote:

> > Comments? (What if all the MS Mensan's had gotten
> > behind Java & J2EE? Where would computing be today?)
>
>Mark: I believe MS tried that with Visual J++, arguably the best Java
>implementation for Windows at the time, and Sun shot them down. I wonder if
>we would even have .NET today if Sun had been willing to compete, rather
>than go running to the courts?

Hah! Sun was not willing to have Microsoft commandeer Java on their
behalf! No wonder they kicked up a fuss. And Microsoft's chutzpah went
sour on them. They lost.

One of the reasons why we're all lumbered with .NET.

MM

[David Bayley]

Mike Mitchell wrote in news:3c485c4b.1121964@news.devx.com...

> The Promised Land as envisaged by Microsoft is not good for consumers
> as it will stifle what little choices they have left.

Any colour, as long as it's black?

--
David.

[Mike Mitchell]

On 18 Jan 2002 15:32:05 GMT, "Paul Linville"
<paullinville@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I can see that one of the hyped features, the ability to use mulitple languages,
>could actually hurt .NET. This could very easily cause a maintanence nightmare
>if not handled correctly. Imagine a project with perl, fortran, cobol, vb,
>c# and c++ managed with possibly a bit of ADA thrown in. Any body else see
>a problem?

Well, yes, now that you mention it!

MM

[Phil Weber]

> I believe the full functionality of certain aspects of XP
> is available only after signing up? Correct me if I'm wrong
> on this...

Mike: The only "feature of XP" I use which requires a .NET Passport is
Windows Messenger. Windows XP is certainly quite useful without Windows
Messenger, so I wouldn't say that XP "requires" a Passport in order to be
fully functional. There may be other (optional) features which require a
Passport, such as uploading photos to the Web via the included Wizard, but I
haven't used those features, so I don't know.

The real question in my mind is what reason (other than an irrational fear
and loathing of Microsoft, in which case I'd wonder why such a person is
running XP at all?) a person would have for refusing to obtain a Passport?
The only information required is an e-mail address and password, which
people routinely give out to any number of Web sites.
---
Phil Weber

[Mike Mitchell]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:45:39 -0800, "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org>
wrote:

>Yeah, what's next? Quality? <rolling eyes>

I kinda think quality and trustworthiness go hand in hand. Otherwise
it would be like Laurel without Hardy, Rodgers without Hammerstein,
Mikey without Classic VB -- you get the picture?

MM

[Mike Mitchell]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 19:16:17 -0000, "David Bayley"
<dbayley@spamless.aebacus.com> wrote:

>Mike Mitchell wrote in news:3c485c4b.1121964@news.devx.com...
>
>> The Promised Land as envisaged by Microsoft is not good for consumers
>> as it will stifle what little choices they have left.
>
>Any colour, as long as it's black?

Any byte, as long as it's Microsoft's?

MM

[Kunle Odutola]

"Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3c48725d.6772888@news.devx.com...

> Hah! Sun was not willing to have Microsoft commandeer Java on their
> behalf! No wonder they kicked up a fuss. And Microsoft's chutzpah went
> sour on them. They lost.

Actually Sun is not willing to have _anybody_ commandeer Java. Not even
international standards bodies. ;-)

It is a sign of IBM's new reality that despite being Java's most respected
champion, it agrees to play in a Sun-dictated JC-Pen.
Now if only they would release a C#/CLI platform...

Kunle

[Kunle Odutola]

"Paul Linville" <paullinville@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c483ff5$1@147.208.176.211...

> C++, VB and the others all have there strengths and weaknesses but all are
> more difficult to write AND maintain especially in the rotating developer
> world we live in.

VB harder than Java? Have you used VB?

> VB can be very hard to maintain
<SNIP>

As can be any language. That's where coding standards and best practices
come in to it....

> I can see that one of the hyped features, the ability to use mulitple
languages,
> could actually hurt .NET. This could very easily cause a maintanence
nightmare
> if not handled correctly. Imagine a project with perl, fortran, cobol, vb,
> c# and c++ managed with possibly a bit of ADA thrown in. Any body else
see
> a problem?

Multiple languages hasn't hurt the Win32/x86 platform to date...like I said
previously some issues are covered by appropriate standards and best
practices.

Kunle

[Karl E. Peterson]

"Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3c487524.7483980@news.devx.com...
>
> I kinda think ...

Hey, wazzup with that? That's gotta be the first post you've made here that
everyone's likely to agree with!
--
[Microsoft Basic: 1976-2001, RIP]

[David Bayley]

Mike Mitchell wrote in news:3c48763b.7762399@news.devx.com...

> >> The Promised Land as envisaged by Microsoft is not good for consumers
> >> as it will stifle what little choices they have left.
> >
> >Any colour, as long as it's black?
>
> Any byte, as long as it's Microsoft's?

Ford good, Microsoft bad.

After Ford brought cars to the masses (as *you* pointed out), it didn't seem
to stifle the evolution of the motor industry. It didn't need government
intervention (DOJ) or a standard car (Java/J2EE) to prevent Ford stifling
consumer choice.

The free market seems able to take care of things itself. Just pick what
you think is the best bang for your buck, and don't worry so much. That is
of course unless you have a hidden agenda.

--
David.

[W.E.(Bill) Goodrich, PhD]

In article <3c486582@147.208.176.211>,
"Phil Weber" <pweberonline@fawcette.com> writes:

[...]

> The real question in my mind is what reason (other than an irrational
> fear and loathing of Microsoft,

How about an entirely *rational* loathing of Micro$oft, after being
injured by some of their illegal business practices? I know quite a few
such people.

> in which case I'd wonder why such a person is running XP at all?)

You say that as though there were a reasonable choice in the matter.
Such people are not likely to downgrade to XP (unless forced to by
M$s new licensing con), but there is no real choice in the consumer PC
market. Because of M$s severe licensing restrictions, any manufacturer
who wants to be able to offer an M$ consumer OS is prohibited from
offering any other, and is limited to offering XP. Period. The only
way to get a consumer-grade laptop or desktop with any other OS is to
buy one of Apple's offerings. Or separately purchase and install some
alternative such as Linux - a step which is too daunting for many
consumers.

> a person would have for refusing to obtain a Passport?
> The only information required is an e-mail address and password,
> which people routinely give out to any number of Web sites.

Because it explicitly allows and helps M$ to track their web use, with
no practical limitations on how M$ uses the information. While it is
*possible* for M$ to do so anyway, it requires a certain amount of
effort per individual and can violate the laws of certain States and
countries.


--

W.E. (Bill) Goodrich, PhD

*-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*
* CHANGE YOUR SEXUALITY * http://www.nyx.net/~bgoodric/ctg.html *
* * *
* Without Aversive * ctgcentral@earthlink.net *
* Behavior Modification * Creative Technology Group *
* or Drugs * PO Box 286 *
* * Englewood, CO 80151-0286 *
*-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*

[Ian Lowe]

Hi, Bill,

<snip>

> Because of M$s severe licensing restrictions, any manufacturer
> who wants to be able to offer an M$ consumer OS is prohibited from
> offering any other, and is limited to offering XP. Period.

This is untrue. Visit Dell and configure a system. You'll have the option of
Win2K. See for example (beware line-wrap)
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellsto...X50SDC&custome
r_id=555&keycode=
and scroll down to the operating system section. Options include WinXP
Home/Pro, Win2K Pro, and even WinNT4.0 and Win98SE.

You may not get the choice from every vendor or every system, but you can
select other OS's than WinXP. Dell even offers some systems with Linux.

Ian.

[Mike Mitchell]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 12:08:39 -0800, "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org>
wrote:

>"Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:3c487524.7483980@news.devx.com...
>>
>> I kinda think ...
>
>Hey, wazzup with that? That's gotta be the first post you've made here that
>everyone's likely to agree with!

Subliminal tuition from my good friend, Zane. (He doesn't know that
he's doing it...)

MM

[Mike Mitchell]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 21:17:39 -0000, "David Bayley"
<dbayley@spamless.aebacus.com> wrote:

>Mike Mitchell wrote in news:3c48763b.7762399@news.devx.com...
>
>> >> The Promised Land as envisaged by Microsoft is not good for consumers
>> >> as it will stifle what little choices they have left.
>> >
>> >Any colour, as long as it's black?
>>
>> Any byte, as long as it's Microsoft's?
>
>Ford good, Microsoft bad.

Okay.

MM

[Mike Mitchell]

On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:18:37 -0800, "Phil Weber"
<pweberonline@fawcette.com> wrote:

>The real question in my mind is what reason (other than an irrational fear
>and loathing of Microsoft, in which case I'd wonder why such a person is
>running XP at all?

"such a person" will soon mean "anyone who wants to run Windows". What
choice about either having to run XP or signing up to Passport will
they have then?

Why does Microsoft ask EVEN ONCE for the new XP user to sign up to
Passport? I tell you why: They want to lock in the user as much as
possible, until this idea of their's of embrace and extend. "Let's
give you a hug for buying our OS, you lucky person!" They try
(allegedly) not just the once, but several times to persuade the new
user to sign up!

But when I buy any other good, I *don't* get badgered EVEN ONCE to
sign up to something else.

> a person would have for refusing to obtain a Passport?

Perhaps just because They.Don't. Want. To. I mean, does the user have
to JUSTIFY why (s)he doesn't want to sign up? You imply that there
must be something wrong with them that they do not want to sign up.

>The only information required is an e-mail address and password, which
>people routinely give out to any number of Web sites.

Yes, the doing words here are "any number of web sites". Exactly. I
can choose which ones.

MM