Addition to the VB Community


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Thread: Addition to the VB Community

  1. #1
    Yair Alan Griver [MSFT] Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community


    Thank you, Rob, for the very nice introduction.

    This seems like a great opportunity to talk a little bit more about how together
    we'll continue to make great things happen with Visual Basic.NET and make
    your jobs better and easier -- and more fun.

    This new role is very exciting. It integrates two things that I love: community
    / business building efforts and architecture / design.

    Core to my job will be listening -- to each of you. You'll discover that
    I am open and candid. Of course, that means sometimes we'll disagree. For
    me, that's great because it's only through sharing different perspectives
    and arguing passionately will we be able to create new and better opportunities.


    Well work together to establish a dialogue and to build trust. You can expect
    to see me at conferences, user groups, etc., to find out what you like and
    dont like about VB.NET. What worries you about moving to it? What types
    of business problems do you regularly have to solve?

    Ill learn from you and take the knowledge that you have taught me to make
    this product the best RAD tool in the .NET family. This will take some time.
    But well get there -- together.

    Let me also share a little bit about my background so you may feel more comfortable
    in knowing that I will indeed bring this philosophy to all of our interactions.


    First and most important, I use the very products for which I am accountable
    so I care deeply about how they work.

    For the past 15 years, Ive been working with Microsoft development tools
    including Visual Basic (all the way back to Basic under DOS) and Visual FoxPro
    (and all its earlier incarnations).

    Learning, improving things and sharing knowledge are *very* important to
    me and building a community is critical to being effective at growing our
    skills.

    While serving as CIO and partner of Flash Creative Management, a business
    strategy and technology consulting company, I programmed and managed teams
    of outstanding developers and people whose commitment to learning and growth
    was evident in the way that they shared their knowledge by speaking at conferences
    and writing articles.

    I have presented at Tech Ed on Design Patterns and at other major conferences
    here and abroad, and have written books and articles on development tools
    and methods. I was lead architect for the Codebook and COMCodebook frameworks
    a leading Visual FoxPro community based framework that provides for large-scale
    distributed system development -- and that was regularly enhanced and distributed
    freely to the community.

    The big picture matters to me, too. We are all here to solve our clients'
    problems.

    After Flash was sold to GoAmerica Communications, a publicly traded telecommunications
    (wireless internet) company, I served as CIO there. My technology team created
    an operational support system that ties together multiple disparate applications
    using an XML message-based infrastructure. This system also included an application
    using .NET.

    So as you can see, I truly do love the promise that technology brings to
    solving business problems and what really turns me on is helping people grow
    in their knowledge and in the work that they do.

    Your success will be my success and I am truly looking forward to speaking
    with you and working together. Please feel free to e-mail me (yag@Microsoft.com)
    - I promise to respond as quickly as I can. I look forward to meeting as
    many of you as possible at VS-Live...

    Thanks.

    yag






  2. #2
    Rob Copeland [MSFT] Guest

    Addition to the VB Community

    It is a pleasure to announce that we have recently released Visual Studio
    ..NET (which, of course, means Visual Basic .NET) to manufacturing. It is
    available immediately for MSDN subscribers on the MSDN subscription site
    (http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscription).

    Thank you for all of your support during this long product cycle. We depend
    on feedback and input from you to help us build the best product. While this
    product cycle has been long (for everyone) and at times trying, we're
    shipping the best version of Visual Basic to date.

    Visual Basic.NET is a first-class product on the new, premier Microsoft
    platform. We've added many features that our customers have been asking for
    over the years. And, we've embraced the world of distributed computing and
    XML web services in a first-class way. Again, thank you for all of your
    feedback and support during this cycle. We could not have produced such a
    great product without you.

    One thing that has become clear during this product cycle is that we can do
    an even better job at involving our users, the VB community, in what we do.
    That includes finding ways to create a better feedback loop with the
    community earlier in the product cycle and building a community that
    provides even more assistance, information, and interactions with other
    users.

    In the past, this effort has been driven largely from our marketing team
    (Ari Bixhorn and Mike Iem). While they will continue to do the great things
    that they do, we've added to our team with an even more pronounced focus on
    our customers.

    Therefore, it is my pleasure to announce that Yair Alan Griver ("yag" to
    many) has joined the Visual Basic product team and will be focusing on the
    VB community along with Ari and Mike. Alan has been involved in Visual Basic
    and Visual FoxPro for many years and brings a wealth of not only community
    experience, but also real-world product usage.

    Alan will be working to:

    Improve the VB development team's interaction with the VB community

    Create a better forum for feature requests

    Find ways to incorporate early feedback from the community

    Help the community grow, both in numbers and usefulness, by making
    sure technical information is more readily available, and community sites
    are more easily found

    In addition to these responsibilities, Alan will be directly involved in the
    design of Visual Basic. He will work closely with the community and
    development team to:

    Ensure the continuing evolution of Visual Basic as the easiest way
    to build .NET applications

    Make sure that Visual Basic continues to target today's and
    tomorrow's real-world problems

    Bring the information that he, and the rest of the team, gathers
    from the community into the design process

    It's very exciting to have Alan as part of the Visual Basic team. Please
    join me in welcoming him. You can contact him at yag@microsoft.com. Alan
    will be sending more details of his plans soon.

    Thanks,
    -Rob Copeland
    Product Unit Manager, Visual Basic
    Microsoft Corporation
    robertco@microsoft.com






  3. #3
    Ian Lowe Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    Hi, Yag, Rob,

    I was wondering if you could give me a hand. I've been using VB.NET since
    Beta 1 last January, and VB6 for the last 3 years. My progress in learning
    VB, and programming in general, has been significantly helped by the VB and
    Microsoft communities. I've recently reached the point where I feel
    confident enough in my skills and experience to contribute something back to
    the wonderful Visual Basic community. However, I could use some pointers to
    the best ways to help give back.

    Perhaps you could provide me, and others who are unsure how to contribute,
    some pointers on the best way to provide community support, feedback to you
    and your team, and other ways to improve the VB community.

    Also, I'd like to say "Great Job!" to the VB and .NET team on a wonderful
    product. I've already deployed two smallish (c. 8 KLOC combined in VB &
    HTML) ASP.NET apps built with VB.NET. I can say, without a doubt, that
    VB.NET is significantly more powerful, easier to use, and more productive
    than VB6. Please express my sincerest thanks and congratulations to your
    team.

    Ian.



  4. #4
    Ray Collins Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much wait to the opinions of the
    minority of VB programmers that hang out in newsgroups like this and ask the
    majority of registered users what they think about VB and what they use it
    for.

    I have been a registered user of VB since version 1 and never has Microsoft
    communicated with me except to tell me there was a new version and how much
    it would cost to keep up. In this day and age how much could it cost for M$
    to survey their registered users ? And having asked them maybe listen as
    well.

    My two cents worth is that the direction you have taken VB in is not the
    direction that the majority of VB users wanted it to go, unfortunately its
    too late to change anything so we now get to vote with our dollar. It will
    be interesting to see what happens now.


    "Rob Copeland [MSFT]" <robertco@microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:3c48bdc6$1@147.208.176.211...
    > It is a pleasure to announce that we have recently released Visual Studio
    > .NET (which, of course, means Visual Basic .NET) to manufacturing. It is
    > available immediately for MSDN subscribers on the MSDN subscription site
    > (http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscription).
    >
    > Thank you for all of your support during this long product cycle. We

    depend
    > on feedback and input from you to help us build the best product. While

    this
    > product cycle has been long (for everyone) and at times trying, we're
    > shipping the best version of Visual Basic to date.
    >
    > Visual Basic.NET is a first-class product on the new, premier Microsoft
    > platform. We've added many features that our customers have been asking

    for
    > over the years. And, we've embraced the world of distributed computing and
    > XML web services in a first-class way. Again, thank you for all of your
    > feedback and support during this cycle. We could not have produced such a
    > great product without you.
    >
    > One thing that has become clear during this product cycle is that we can

    do
    > an even better job at involving our users, the VB community, in what we

    do.
    > That includes finding ways to create a better feedback loop with the
    > community earlier in the product cycle and building a community that
    > provides even more assistance, information, and interactions with other
    > users.
    >
    > In the past, this effort has been driven largely from our marketing team
    > (Ari Bixhorn and Mike Iem). While they will continue to do the great

    things
    > that they do, we've added to our team with an even more pronounced focus

    on
    > our customers.
    >
    > Therefore, it is my pleasure to announce that Yair Alan Griver ("yag" to
    > many) has joined the Visual Basic product team and will be focusing on the
    > VB community along with Ari and Mike. Alan has been involved in Visual

    Basic
    > and Visual FoxPro for many years and brings a wealth of not only community
    > experience, but also real-world product usage.
    >
    > Alan will be working to:
    >
    > Improve the VB development team's interaction with the VB

    community
    >
    > Create a better forum for feature requests
    >
    > Find ways to incorporate early feedback from the community
    >
    > Help the community grow, both in numbers and usefulness, by

    making
    > sure technical information is more readily available, and community sites
    > are more easily found
    >
    > In addition to these responsibilities, Alan will be directly involved in

    the
    > design of Visual Basic. He will work closely with the community and
    > development team to:
    >
    > Ensure the continuing evolution of Visual Basic as the easiest

    way
    > to build .NET applications
    >
    > Make sure that Visual Basic continues to target today's and
    > tomorrow's real-world problems
    >
    > Bring the information that he, and the rest of the team, gathers
    > from the community into the design process
    >
    > It's very exciting to have Alan as part of the Visual Basic team. Please
    > join me in welcoming him. You can contact him at yag@microsoft.com. Alan
    > will be sending more details of his plans soon.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > -Rob Copeland
    > Product Unit Manager, Visual Basic
    > Microsoft Corporation
    > robertco@microsoft.com
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >




  5. #5
    Ray Collins Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much wait to the opinions of the
    ^^^
    Hmm, why didn't the spell checker know that I meant the other weight ? :-)

    "Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote in message
    news:3c48f29f@147.208.176.211...
    > Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much wait to the opinions of the
    > minority of VB programmers that hang out in newsgroups like this and ask

    the
    > majority of registered users what they think about VB and what they use it
    > for.
    >
    > I have been a registered user of VB since version 1 and never has

    Microsoft
    > communicated with me except to tell me there was a new version and how

    much
    > it would cost to keep up. In this day and age how much could it cost for

    M$
    > to survey their registered users ? And having asked them maybe listen as
    > well.
    >
    > My two cents worth is that the direction you have taken VB in is not the
    > direction that the majority of VB users wanted it to go, unfortunately its
    > too late to change anything so we now get to vote with our dollar. It

    will
    > be interesting to see what happens now.
    >
    >
    > "Rob Copeland [MSFT]" <robertco@microsoft.com> wrote in message
    > news:3c48bdc6$1@147.208.176.211...
    > > It is a pleasure to announce that we have recently released Visual

    Studio
    > > .NET (which, of course, means Visual Basic .NET) to manufacturing. It is
    > > available immediately for MSDN subscribers on the MSDN subscription site
    > > (http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscription).
    > >
    > > Thank you for all of your support during this long product cycle. We

    > depend
    > > on feedback and input from you to help us build the best product. While

    > this
    > > product cycle has been long (for everyone) and at times trying, we're
    > > shipping the best version of Visual Basic to date.
    > >
    > > Visual Basic.NET is a first-class product on the new, premier Microsoft
    > > platform. We've added many features that our customers have been asking

    > for
    > > over the years. And, we've embraced the world of distributed computing

    and
    > > XML web services in a first-class way. Again, thank you for all of your
    > > feedback and support during this cycle. We could not have produced such

    a
    > > great product without you.
    > >
    > > One thing that has become clear during this product cycle is that we can

    > do
    > > an even better job at involving our users, the VB community, in what we

    > do.
    > > That includes finding ways to create a better feedback loop with the
    > > community earlier in the product cycle and building a community that
    > > provides even more assistance, information, and interactions with other
    > > users.
    > >
    > > In the past, this effort has been driven largely from our marketing team
    > > (Ari Bixhorn and Mike Iem). While they will continue to do the great

    > things
    > > that they do, we've added to our team with an even more pronounced focus

    > on
    > > our customers.
    > >
    > > Therefore, it is my pleasure to announce that Yair Alan Griver ("yag" to
    > > many) has joined the Visual Basic product team and will be focusing on

    the
    > > VB community along with Ari and Mike. Alan has been involved in Visual

    > Basic
    > > and Visual FoxPro for many years and brings a wealth of not only

    community
    > > experience, but also real-world product usage.
    > >
    > > Alan will be working to:
    > >
    > > Improve the VB development team's interaction with the VB

    > community
    > >
    > > Create a better forum for feature requests
    > >
    > > Find ways to incorporate early feedback from the community
    > >
    > > Help the community grow, both in numbers and usefulness, by

    > making
    > > sure technical information is more readily available, and community

    sites
    > > are more easily found
    > >
    > > In addition to these responsibilities, Alan will be directly involved in

    > the
    > > design of Visual Basic. He will work closely with the community and
    > > development team to:
    > >
    > > Ensure the continuing evolution of Visual Basic as the easiest

    > way
    > > to build .NET applications
    > >
    > > Make sure that Visual Basic continues to target today's and
    > > tomorrow's real-world problems
    > >
    > > Bring the information that he, and the rest of the team,

    gathers
    > > from the community into the design process
    > >
    > > It's very exciting to have Alan as part of the Visual Basic team. Please
    > > join me in welcoming him. You can contact him at yag@microsoft.com. Alan
    > > will be sending more details of his plans soon.
    > >
    > > Thanks,
    > > -Rob Copeland
    > > Product Unit Manager, Visual Basic
    > > Microsoft Corporation
    > > robertco@microsoft.com
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    >




  6. #6
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community


    "Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote in message
    news:3c48f29f@147.208.176.211...
    > Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much wait to the opinions of the
    > minority of VB programmers that hang out in newsgroups like this and ask

    the
    > majority of registered users what they think about VB and what they use it
    > for.


    That is the functions of the customer service and/or support function within
    MS. They already do this (and just how many users respond to _any_
    surveys?).

    > I have been a registered user of VB since version 1 and never has

    Microsoft
    > communicated with me except to tell me there was a new version and how

    much
    > it would cost to keep up. In this day and age how much could it cost for

    M$
    > to survey their registered users ? And having asked them maybe listen as
    > well.
    >
    > My two cents worth is that the direction you have taken VB in is not the
    > direction that the majority of VB users wanted it to go, unfortunately its
    > too late to change anything so we now get to vote with our dollar. It

    will
    > be interesting to see what happens now.


    Perhaps you care to explain to us minions in the minority how and when _you_
    became the voice of the majority of VB users. You've just claimed that even
    MS hasn't been able to survey it's users or listen to them, so just how did
    you manage surpass MS in this regard?

    Kunle

    >
    >
    > "Rob Copeland [MSFT]" <robertco@microsoft.com> wrote in message
    > news:3c48bdc6$1@147.208.176.211...
    > > It is a pleasure to announce that we have recently released Visual

    Studio
    > > .NET (which, of course, means Visual Basic .NET) to manufacturing. It is
    > > available immediately for MSDN subscribers on the MSDN subscription site
    > > (http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscription).
    > >
    > > Thank you for all of your support during this long product cycle. We

    > depend
    > > on feedback and input from you to help us build the best product. While

    > this
    > > product cycle has been long (for everyone) and at times trying, we're
    > > shipping the best version of Visual Basic to date.
    > >
    > > Visual Basic.NET is a first-class product on the new, premier Microsoft
    > > platform. We've added many features that our customers have been asking

    > for
    > > over the years. And, we've embraced the world of distributed computing

    and
    > > XML web services in a first-class way. Again, thank you for all of your
    > > feedback and support during this cycle. We could not have produced such

    a
    > > great product without you.
    > >
    > > One thing that has become clear during this product cycle is that we can

    > do
    > > an even better job at involving our users, the VB community, in what we

    > do.
    > > That includes finding ways to create a better feedback loop with the
    > > community earlier in the product cycle and building a community that
    > > provides even more assistance, information, and interactions with other
    > > users.
    > >
    > > In the past, this effort has been driven largely from our marketing team
    > > (Ari Bixhorn and Mike Iem). While they will continue to do the great

    > things
    > > that they do, we've added to our team with an even more pronounced focus

    > on
    > > our customers.
    > >
    > > Therefore, it is my pleasure to announce that Yair Alan Griver ("yag" to
    > > many) has joined the Visual Basic product team and will be focusing on

    the
    > > VB community along with Ari and Mike. Alan has been involved in Visual

    > Basic
    > > and Visual FoxPro for many years and brings a wealth of not only

    community
    > > experience, but also real-world product usage.
    > >
    > > Alan will be working to:
    > >
    > > Improve the VB development team's interaction with the VB

    > community
    > >
    > > Create a better forum for feature requests
    > >
    > > Find ways to incorporate early feedback from the community
    > >
    > > Help the community grow, both in numbers and usefulness, by

    > making
    > > sure technical information is more readily available, and community

    sites
    > > are more easily found
    > >
    > > In addition to these responsibilities, Alan will be directly involved in

    > the
    > > design of Visual Basic. He will work closely with the community and
    > > development team to:
    > >
    > > Ensure the continuing evolution of Visual Basic as the easiest

    > way
    > > to build .NET applications
    > >
    > > Make sure that Visual Basic continues to target today's and
    > > tomorrow's real-world problems
    > >
    > > Bring the information that he, and the rest of the team,

    gathers
    > > from the community into the design process
    > >
    > > It's very exciting to have Alan as part of the Visual Basic team. Please
    > > join me in welcoming him. You can contact him at yag@microsoft.com. Alan
    > > will be sending more details of his plans soon.
    > >
    > > Thanks,
    > > -Rob Copeland
    > > Product Unit Manager, Visual Basic
    > > Microsoft Corporation
    > > robertco@microsoft.com
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    >



  7. #7
    Ray Collins Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community


    "Kunle Odutola okocha.freeserve.co.uk>" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS> wrote in
    message news:3c494967@147.208.176.211...
    >
    > "Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote in message
    > news:3c48f29f@147.208.176.211...
    > > Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much wait to the opinions of

    the
    > > minority of VB programmers that hang out in newsgroups like this and ask

    > the
    > > majority of registered users what they think about VB and what they use

    it
    > > for.

    >
    > That is the functions of the customer service and/or support function

    within
    > MS. They already do this (and just how many users respond to _any_
    > surveys?).


    Well they don't seem to be doing this. As I said nobody every asked me, and
    I have never met a VB user or any other M$ product user who has ever been
    contacted after registering their product for anything but advertising for
    the next release. And who rings Microsoft support anyway? The first thing
    they ask for is a credit card number, and even if you paid them unless its a
    bug they don't support development languages.


    > > I have been a registered user of VB since version 1 and never has

    > Microsoft
    > > communicated with me except to tell me there was a new version and how

    > much
    > > it would cost to keep up. In this day and age how much could it cost for

    > M$
    > > to survey their registered users ? And having asked them maybe listen as
    > > well.
    > >
    > > My two cents worth is that the direction you have taken VB in is not the
    > > direction that the majority of VB users wanted it to go, unfortunately

    its
    > > too late to change anything so we now get to vote with our dollar. It

    > will
    > > be interesting to see what happens now.

    >
    > Perhaps you care to explain to us minions in the minority how and when

    _you_
    > became the voice of the majority of VB users. You've just claimed that

    even
    > MS hasn't been able to survey it's users or listen to them, so just how

    did
    > you manage surpass MS in this regard?
    >
    > Kunle


    It's just my 2 cents worth, based on personal experience, chatting with
    various people and scanning various newsgroups, the conclusion I have
    reached is that people are not happy with VB.net. I must say that this is
    the most Pro Microsoft newsgroup I have seen in a long time, maybe even to
    the point of religious fervour.

    >
    > >
    > >
    > > "Rob Copeland [MSFT]" <robertco@microsoft.com> wrote in message
    > > news:3c48bdc6$1@147.208.176.211...
    > > > It is a pleasure to announce that we have recently released Visual

    > Studio
    > > > .NET (which, of course, means Visual Basic .NET) to manufacturing. It

    is
    > > > available immediately for MSDN subscribers on the MSDN subscription

    site
    > > > (http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscription).
    > > >
    > > > Thank you for all of your support during this long product cycle. We

    > > depend
    > > > on feedback and input from you to help us build the best product.

    While
    > > this
    > > > product cycle has been long (for everyone) and at times trying, we're
    > > > shipping the best version of Visual Basic to date.
    > > >
    > > > Visual Basic.NET is a first-class product on the new, premier

    Microsoft
    > > > platform. We've added many features that our customers have been

    asking
    > > for
    > > > over the years. And, we've embraced the world of distributed computing

    > and
    > > > XML web services in a first-class way. Again, thank you for all of

    your
    > > > feedback and support during this cycle. We could not have produced

    such
    > a
    > > > great product without you.
    > > >
    > > > One thing that has become clear during this product cycle is that we

    can
    > > do
    > > > an even better job at involving our users, the VB community, in what

    we
    > > do.
    > > > That includes finding ways to create a better feedback loop with the
    > > > community earlier in the product cycle and building a community that
    > > > provides even more assistance, information, and interactions with

    other
    > > > users.
    > > >
    > > > In the past, this effort has been driven largely from our marketing

    team
    > > > (Ari Bixhorn and Mike Iem). While they will continue to do the great

    > > things
    > > > that they do, we've added to our team with an even more pronounced

    focus
    > > on
    > > > our customers.
    > > >
    > > > Therefore, it is my pleasure to announce that Yair Alan Griver ("yag"

    to
    > > > many) has joined the Visual Basic product team and will be focusing on

    > the
    > > > VB community along with Ari and Mike. Alan has been involved in Visual

    > > Basic
    > > > and Visual FoxPro for many years and brings a wealth of not only

    > community
    > > > experience, but also real-world product usage.
    > > >
    > > > Alan will be working to:
    > > >
    > > > Improve the VB development team's interaction with the VB

    > > community
    > > >
    > > > Create a better forum for feature requests
    > > >
    > > > Find ways to incorporate early feedback from the community
    > > >
    > > > Help the community grow, both in numbers and usefulness, by

    > > making
    > > > sure technical information is more readily available, and community

    > sites
    > > > are more easily found
    > > >
    > > > In addition to these responsibilities, Alan will be directly involved

    in
    > > the
    > > > design of Visual Basic. He will work closely with the community and
    > > > development team to:
    > > >
    > > > Ensure the continuing evolution of Visual Basic as the

    easiest
    > > way
    > > > to build .NET applications
    > > >
    > > > Make sure that Visual Basic continues to target today's and
    > > > tomorrow's real-world problems
    > > >
    > > > Bring the information that he, and the rest of the team,

    > gathers
    > > > from the community into the design process
    > > >
    > > > It's very exciting to have Alan as part of the Visual Basic team.

    Please
    > > > join me in welcoming him. You can contact him at yag@microsoft.com.

    Alan
    > > > will be sending more details of his plans soon.
    > > >
    > > > Thanks,
    > > > -Rob Copeland
    > > > Product Unit Manager, Visual Basic
    > > > Microsoft Corporation
    > > > robertco@microsoft.com
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >




  8. #8
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:34:26 -0800, "Rob Copeland [MSFT]"
    <robertco@microsoft.com> wrote:

    >It is a pleasure to announce that we have recently released Visual Studio
    >.NET (which, of course, means Visual Basic .NET) to manufacturing. It is
    >available immediately for MSDN subscribers on the MSDN subscription site
    >(http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscription).


    While I wish Microsoft every success with their new product, I have to
    say that VB.NET will be a great disappointment to a huge number of VB
    developers. The VB.NET product is hugely incompatible with previous
    versions, requiring a lot, if not most, of classic VB code to be
    rewritten/restructured for the transition to .NET. VB.NET is not the
    simple tool for a huge number of business and other apps that classic
    VB is. Dan Appleman said in his book, 'Moving to VB.NET': "Everything
    You Know Is Now Obsolete". I am assured by several authors that to
    take advantage of the fully OOP nature of VB.NET and realise its
    assumed advantages will require developers to learn and practise OOP.
    I think you either do not know how many lack OOP knowledge, or you do
    know and don't care anyway. My contention is that the overwhelming
    majority of VB users currently make very little use, if any, of OOP
    -- because the simplicity of straightforward, non-obfusfactory
    procedural programming was the very nub of what made classic VB the
    most significant and most widely used programming language of all
    time. VB users cottoned on to VB almost the very minute it came out in
    version 1. They did that because they could see a direct link between
    what they were using up to then, namely, QuickBASIC and Basic 7 PDS,
    and Visual Basic. If they had wanted to get into more complex ways of
    working, well, of course, as we know, there are always plenty of
    people around who like making things complex!

    When those VB users hear about VB.NET, they may think there will be
    another direct link for them again, knowing what was necessary for
    them to move from VB1 through 6. Well, I think you'll agree: They're
    in for a surprise. And it's not going to be pleasant. In fact, I'd
    call it a shock.

    So, just pass the word to His Billness and Stevie "Developers"
    Ballmer, and anyone else you might meet up with in the campus car
    park, that there are certainly some erstwhile classic VB users out
    here who are utterly, totally, and very wetly pissed off with the way
    things are going.

    But in future, you're going to be listening to us, right?

    Yeah, right!

    MM

  9. #9
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community


    "Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote in message
    news:3c4952b0@147.208.176.211...
    >
    > "Kunle Odutola okocha.freeserve.co.uk>" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS> wrote

    in
    > message news:3c494967@147.208.176.211...


    > > That is the functions of the customer service and/or support function

    > within
    > > MS. They already do this (and just how many users respond to _any_
    > > surveys?).

    >
    > Well they don't seem to be doing this. As I said nobody every asked me,

    and
    > I have never met a VB user or any other M$ product user who has ever been
    > contacted after registering their product for anything but advertising for
    > the next release. And who rings Microsoft support anyway? The first thing
    > they ask for is a credit card number, and even if you paid them unless its

    a
    > bug they don't support development languages.


    There is a Developer Support group within Microsoft.

    > > Perhaps you care to explain to us minions in the minority how and when

    > _you_
    > > became the voice of the majority of VB users. You've just claimed that

    > even
    > > MS hasn't been able to survey it's users or listen to them, so just how

    > did
    > > you manage surpass MS in this regard?
    > >
    > > Kunle

    >
    > It's just my 2 cents worth, based on personal experience, chatting with
    > various people and scanning various newsgroups, the conclusion I have
    > reached is that people are not happy with VB.net. I must say that this is
    > the most Pro Microsoft newsgroup I have seen in a long time, maybe even to
    > the point of religious fervour.


    Ray,

    Many VB users (I'd guess a _very_ significant monority at the least) have
    problems with VB6, they also had problems with VB5, VB4 and all other
    previous versions. So they definitely would have a problem with VB.NET too.
    The reasons are varied and oftem stem from the accidental programmers
    syndrome IMO. The cure to their problems is most often training or at least
    access to learning material that communities such as the one we are both
    posting in provides. MVPs play a definitely positive role in this regards.
    As does MS - directly (MSDN + extended early access & beta programmes,
    Gotdotnet, MSPress etc) and indirectly (MVP programme, training,
    certification, involvement with VB communities like this).

    I have no doubt that the move to VB.NET will be easier for some than
    others - this has always been the case. I also have no doubt that were the
    crux of the changes in VB.NET not implemented, there would have been a mass
    exodus to other more capable yet easy-to-use .NET languages (e.g. C#) that
    would have killed of VB in due course. Of course, there are isolated areas
    in which I think MS could have done more, less, nothing or just differently
    in the move to VB.NET. I am sure you do too as does everyone else. Even MS
    folks ;-).

    Ultimately, we have in VB.NET, a potent combination of the classic simplicty
    of the VB language and the power and expression of traditional OO languages.
    All that VB.NET _needs_ now IMO, is the return of true Edit & Continue
    functionality - this is promised for the next release of VS.NET (perhaps in
    a Service Pack pls Rob and Yag).

    Kunle



  10. #10
    Ed Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community


    kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Mitchell) wrote:
    >On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:34:26 -0800, "Rob Copeland [MSFT]"
    ><robertco@microsoft.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >But in future, you're going to be listening to us, right?
    >
    >Yeah, right!
    >
    >MM


    With you all the way, Mike. It's time that customers hit Microsoft over
    the head with a 2 by 4. This YAG announcement is Microsoft's way of throwing
    us a bone. Microsoft pay attention. Listen to our concerns. Make our concerns
    your concerns. If you do that, you will continue to be successful. If not,
    then you will lose but not because you couldn't beat your competition. But
    because you didn't listen to your customers.


  11. #11
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 23:09:30 +1100, "Ray Collins"
    <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote:

    >............. I must say that this is
    >the most Pro Microsoft newsgroup I have seen in a long time, maybe even to
    >the point of religious fervour.


    Heh, heh! That's why I'm here, Ray! To bring a little balance to all
    the zealotry. They have to leave their hoods and crosses outside the
    door when they enter my place of worship....classic VB!

    MM

  12. #12
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 13:40:02 -0000, "Kunle Odutola"
    <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

    >Ultimately, we have in VB.NET, a potent combination of the classic simplicty
    >of the VB language and the power and expression of traditional OO languages.
    >All that VB.NET _needs_ now IMO, is the return of true Edit & Continue
    >functionality - this is promised for the next release of VS.NET (perhaps in
    >a Service Pack pls Rob and Yag).


    How can they bring back Edit & Continue without re-introducing an
    interpreted version within the IDE? How would an interpreted version
    work with all the OOP stuff and garbage collection, and be 100%
    compatible with what MSIL wants? If they do bring it back, what's the
    betting it will feel significantly different from the classic Edit &
    Continue we know and love?

    Anyway, that's only part of it. Your claim that VB.NET embodies "the
    classic simplicity of the VB language" is derisory nonense. It
    doesn't. It goes out of its way to be different from VB in very many
    ways. I bet there isn't a classic VB programmer on the planet, new to
    VB.NET, who will not notice quite considerable differences within ten
    minutes of starting to use VB.NET. You're just talking up the apparent
    similarity (i.e. it's got the word "BASIC" in its name) so that any
    new visitor to this ng will assume that the differences are on a par
    with those between VB3 and VB4.

    MM

  13. #13
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community


    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:3c49bc54.636007@news.devx.com...
    > On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 13:40:02 -0000, "Kunle Odutola"
    > <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:


    > How can they bring back Edit & Continue without re-introducing an
    > interpreted version within the IDE?


    Who cares, as long it's back?

    > How would an interpreted version
    > work with all the OOP stuff and garbage collection, and be 100%
    > compatible with what MSIL wants?


    It isn't rocket science Mike. Read up on Java, Smalltalk et al....

    > If they do bring it back, what's the
    > betting it will feel significantly different from the classic Edit &
    > Continue we know and love?


    What's the betting it won't be significantly better just like VB.NET is
    better than VB6?

    > Anyway, that's only part of it. Your claim that VB.NET embodies "the
    > classic simplicity of the VB language" is derisory nonense.


    To you Mike. You already said that....

    > I bet there isn't a classic VB programmer on the planet, new to
    > VB.NET, who will not notice quite considerable differences within ten
    > minutes of starting to use VB.NET.


    Before that even. The [very involved] install process is the first clue....

    > You're just talking up the apparent
    > similarity (i.e. it's got the word "BASIC" in its name) so that any
    > new visitor to this ng will assume that the differences are on a par
    > with those between VB3 and VB4.


    Wasn't that change supposed to be the end of VB too?

    Kunle



  14. #14
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 19:44:02 -0000, "Kunle Odutola"
    <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

    >Wasn't that change supposed to be the end of VB too?


    No. The level of public outrage was by comparison merely in the range
    of irritable mutterings.

    MM

  15. #15
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community


    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:3c4aae0d.2305950@news.devx.com...
    > On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 19:44:02 -0000, "Kunle Odutola"
    > <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    > >Wasn't that change supposed to be the end of VB too?

    >
    > No. The level of public outrage was by comparison merely in the range
    > of irritable mutterings.


    Ooooohhhhh.......how quickly we forget!

    Kunle



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