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Thread: Addition to the VB Community

  1. #16
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:44:01 -0000, "Kunle Odutola"
    <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

    >Ooooohhhhh.......how quickly we forget!


    Yes, we do forget insignificant things fairly quickly.

    MM

  2. #17
    Rob Teixeira Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community


    kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Mitchell) wrote:
    >On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 13:40:02 -0000, "Kunle Odutola"
    ><kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >How can they bring back Edit & Continue without re-introducing an
    >interpreted version within the IDE?


    You don't need interpreted code to run Edit & Continue.
    It's explained in painfully long detail in the supplimental documentation
    (oh... you haven't read it).

    >How would an interpreted version
    >work with all the OOP stuff and garbage collection, and be 100%
    >compatible with what MSIL wants?


    MSIL is the code, not the execution mechanism. You could replace the JIT
    engine with a runtime interpreter if you wanted (but who would?).

    >If they do bring it back, what's the
    >betting it will feel significantly different from the classic Edit &
    >Continue we know and love?


    As long as it works better, who cares if it's different in some minor aspect.
    My only concern is if it is worse.

    -Rob

  3. #18
    Thomas Eyde Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    ..NET is released. Doesn't this announcement come a little too late?

    /Thomas



  4. #19
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community


    Well, no. There are lots of areas that Microsoft may want feedback so they
    better serve us such as better documentation, training, MS Press publications,
    service packs, etc. Not to mention, .NET version 2 and beyond. This is just
    the beginning....

    /Pat

    "Thomas Eyde" <thomas.eyde@online.no> wrote:
    >..NET is released. Doesn't this announcement come a little too late?
    >
    >/Thomas
    >
    >



  5. #20
    Karl E. Peterson Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    Hi Kunle --

    > Many VB users (I'd guess a _very_ significant monority at the least) have
    > problems with VB6, they also had problems with VB5, VB4 and all other
    > previous versions.


    If you're saying the ones opposed to VFred are only so out of ignorance, one word,
    and only one word, applies: Bullshit.

    > So they definitely would have a problem with VB.NET too.


    Uh-huh.

    > The reasons are varied and oftem stem from the accidental programmers
    > syndrome IMO. The cure to their problems is most often training or at least
    > access to learning material that communities such as the one we are both
    > posting in provides. MVPs play a definitely positive role in this regards.


    About 75% of the VB MVPs have, let's say, "negative feelings" toward this abomination
    I prefer to call VFred. That number is trending upward, btw, despite (because of?)
    Microsoft's most earnest evangelism within that small group.

    Later... Karl
    --
    [Microsoft Basic: 1976-2001, RIP]


  6. #21
    Yair Alan Griver [MSFT] Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    Hi Ian,

    Sorry it took a while for me to respond back - spent the weekend looking at
    places to live, and by Monday the site was down...

    Anyway, I think that the best way to contribute is via answering messages on
    the newsgroups (like here) or web-based message boards. User groups are
    another great approach. They are always looking for new speakers to come in.
    I always loved speaking at user groups myself - you learn a ton by doing it
    as well. It's a virtuous feedback loop. <g>

    You can go to: http://msdn.microsoft.com/usergroups to find one in your
    area.

    And I'll definitely pass on your kudos to the team...

    yag

    "Ian Lowe" <idlowe_at_greenlawncare_com> wrote in message
    news:3c48e403@147.208.176.211...
    > Hi, Yag, Rob,
    >
    > I was wondering if you could give me a hand. I've been using VB.NET since
    > Beta 1 last January, and VB6 for the last 3 years. My progress in learning
    > VB, and programming in general, has been significantly helped by the VB

    and
    > Microsoft communities. I've recently reached the point where I feel
    > confident enough in my skills and experience to contribute something back

    to
    > the wonderful Visual Basic community. However, I could use some pointers

    to
    > the best ways to help give back.
    >
    > Perhaps you could provide me, and others who are unsure how to contribute,
    > some pointers on the best way to provide community support, feedback to

    you
    > and your team, and other ways to improve the VB community.
    >
    > Also, I'd like to say "Great Job!" to the VB and .NET team on a wonderful
    > product. I've already deployed two smallish (c. 8 KLOC combined in VB &
    > HTML) ASP.NET apps built with VB.NET. I can say, without a doubt, that
    > VB.NET is significantly more powerful, easier to use, and more productive
    > than VB6. Please express my sincerest thanks and congratulations to your
    > team.
    >
    > Ian.
    >
    >




  7. #22
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:43:59 -0800, "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org>
    wrote:

    >About 75% of the VB MVPs have, let's say, "negative feelings" toward this abomination
    >I prefer to call VFred. That number is trending upward, btw, despite (because of?)
    >Microsoft's most earnest evangelism within that small group.


    This is very interesting! How many actual bums on seats (we can say
    that kind of thing over here) does 75% represent?

    MM

  8. #23
    Yair Alan Griver [MSFT] Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    Hi Mike,

    I understand what you (and many others) are going thru. I remember when a
    product that I used moved to object orientation, with a new IDE, etc. It was
    really hard. A lot of people were upset. I can also tell you that after
    learning OO and the new IDE, nobody wanted to go back to the older version.
    That doesn't help right now, but I'd be willing to bet that if we come back
    in a year, many people will change their minds. Why? Because VB.NET makes it
    fairly easy to hook into your old COM-based applications, and makes new
    development easier than before. I can say this as someone who headed a
    project that integrated a .NET-based system with systems written using ASP,
    VB6, VFP, Java and C++. Some of these were off-the-shelf systems, some were
    written in-house.

    Is there a lot to learn? Yes. I it worth it? Yes. None of my developers who
    worked on a .NET system wanted to work on anything else. Things just got
    done quicker.

    Are there improvements that we can make (I've heard "Edit and Continue" once
    or twice <g>)? Yes - and we're already working on those - based on feedback
    here and on other newsgroups, emails, etc.

    Oh, and one last thing. Will I listen? Yes. Will I always agree with you and
    you with me? Probably not. <g> One thing for sure - you guys ain't gettin'
    rid of me...

    yag

    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:3c496682.4264851@news.devx.com...
    > On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:34:26 -0800, "Rob Copeland [MSFT]"
    > <robertco@microsoft.com> wrote:
    >
    > >It is a pleasure to announce that we have recently released Visual Studio
    > >.NET (which, of course, means Visual Basic .NET) to manufacturing. It is
    > >available immediately for MSDN subscribers on the MSDN subscription site
    > >(http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscription).

    >
    > While I wish Microsoft every success with their new product, I have to
    > say that VB.NET will be a great disappointment to a huge number of VB
    > developers. The VB.NET product is hugely incompatible with previous
    > versions, requiring a lot, if not most, of classic VB code to be
    > rewritten/restructured for the transition to .NET. VB.NET is not the
    > simple tool for a huge number of business and other apps that classic
    > VB is. Dan Appleman said in his book, 'Moving to VB.NET': "Everything
    > You Know Is Now Obsolete". I am assured by several authors that to
    > take advantage of the fully OOP nature of VB.NET and realise its
    > assumed advantages will require developers to learn and practise OOP.
    > I think you either do not know how many lack OOP knowledge, or you do
    > know and don't care anyway. My contention is that the overwhelming
    > majority of VB users currently make very little use, if any, of OOP
    > -- because the simplicity of straightforward, non-obfusfactory
    > procedural programming was the very nub of what made classic VB the
    > most significant and most widely used programming language of all
    > time. VB users cottoned on to VB almost the very minute it came out in
    > version 1. They did that because they could see a direct link between
    > what they were using up to then, namely, QuickBASIC and Basic 7 PDS,
    > and Visual Basic. If they had wanted to get into more complex ways of
    > working, well, of course, as we know, there are always plenty of
    > people around who like making things complex!
    >
    > When those VB users hear about VB.NET, they may think there will be
    > another direct link for them again, knowing what was necessary for
    > them to move from VB1 through 6. Well, I think you'll agree: They're
    > in for a surprise. And it's not going to be pleasant. In fact, I'd
    > call it a shock.
    >
    > So, just pass the word to His Billness and Stevie "Developers"
    > Ballmer, and anyone else you might meet up with in the campus car
    > park, that there are certainly some erstwhile classic VB users out
    > here who are utterly, totally, and very wetly pissed off with the way
    > things are going.
    >
    > But in future, you're going to be listening to us, right?
    >
    > Yeah, right!
    >
    > MM




  9. #24
    Karl E. Peterson Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:3c4f0dcf.3195651@news.devx.com...
    > On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:43:59 -0800, "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >About 75% of the VB MVPs have, let's say, "negative feelings" toward this

    abomination
    > >I prefer to call VFred. That number is trending upward, btw, despite (because

    of?)
    > >Microsoft's most earnest evangelism within that small group.

    >
    > This is very interesting! How many actual bums on seats (we can say
    > that kind of thing over here) does 75% represent?


    I don't have any exact figures, nor would I offer such if I did. My 3/4 estimate is
    based solely on my own observation and conversation with those falling into that
    group. I'd say only 1/2, maybe even less, were thoroughly disgusted a year ago.
    That number has definitely gone up in the interim. The Trust is gone, and all the
    wikis in the world ain't gonna change that!
    --
    [Microsoft Basic: 1976-2001, RIP]


  10. #25
    Karl E. Peterson Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    Hi Yag --

    > One thing for sure - you guys ain't gettin' rid of me...


    That's a threat I thoroughly anticipate calling you on, should you back down, there.
    ;-)

    Later... Karl
    --
    [Microsoft Basic: 1976-2001, RIP]


  11. #26
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:43:59 -0800, "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org>
    wrote:

    >About 75% of the VB MVPs have, let's say, "negative feelings" toward this abomination
    >I prefer to call VFred.


    I guess that will change as the collection of VB MVPs changes. ;-)


    --
    When freedom is outlawed
    only outlaws will be free.

  12. #27
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:28:00 -0800, "Yair Alan Griver [MSFT]"
    <yag@microsoft.com> wrote:

    >I remember when a product that I used moved to object orientation,
    >with a new IDE, etc. It was really hard.


    I'm currently teaching my soon-to-be 14 year-old son to program using .net
    and he finds the encapsulation and inheritance very easy to grasp. It
    seems to me that anyone who is *willing* to step back and consider vb.net
    and oop for what they are instead of clinging to the past will find the
    transition interesting and worthwile.



    --
    When freedom is outlawed
    only outlaws will be free.

  13. #28
    Karl E. Peterson Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    Hi Zane --

    > >About 75% of the VB MVPs have, let's say, "negative feelings" toward this

    abomination
    > >I prefer to call VFred.

    >
    > I guess that will change as the collection of VB MVPs changes. ;-)


    Yeah, if Microsoft decides they'd rather have the equivalent of TeamB, I have little
    doubt you're right.

    Later... Karl
    --
    [Microsoft Basic: 1976-2001, RIP]


  14. #29
    Karl E. Peterson Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community

    Hi Zane --

    > >I remember when a product that I used moved to object orientation,
    > >with a new IDE, etc. It was really hard.

    >
    > I'm currently teaching my soon-to-be 14 year-old son to program using .net
    > and he finds the encapsulation and inheritance very easy to grasp. It
    > seems to me that anyone who is *willing* to step back and consider vb.net
    > and oop for what they are instead of clinging to the past will find the
    > transition interesting and worthwile.

    ^^^^^^^^^^

    Keyword, there. That there _is_ a transition -- actually, I find that term a bit
    hilarious in this context, because it so massively minimizes what's really
    happened -- is exactly the issue. Not whether the results may be
    good/bad/indifferent *after* making the <ahem> "transition."

    I've said on many occassions, and in print, that the new platform is pretty dang
    cool -- I just wish they'd included VB in it, rather than deciding to kill it.
    That's the issue they need to confront. The disgust in the community really has next
    to nothing (MM aside, of course) to do with OOP.

    Later... Karl
    --
    [Microsoft Basic: 1976-2001, RIP]


  15. #30
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: Addition to the VB Community


    "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
    news:3c4effd6@10.1.10.29...

    > Hi Kunle --


    G'day Karl,

    > > Many VB users (I'd guess a _very_ significant monority at the least)

    have
    > > problems with VB6, they also had problems with VB5, VB4 and all other
    > > previous versions.

    >
    > If you're saying the ones opposed to VFred are only so out of ignorance,

    one word,
    > and only one word, applies: Bullshit.


    I wasn't saying that anyone opposed to VB.NET is ignorant. I said a great
    percentage of VB users have problems with all upgrades to VB regardless. I
    also said that this is an area where MVPs play a significant role by helping
    others to come to better manage the change.

    > > So they definitely would have a problem with VB.NET too.

    >
    > Uh-huh.
    >
    > > The reasons are varied and oftem stem from the accidental programmers
    > > syndrome IMO. The cure to their problems is most often training or at

    least
    > > access to learning material that communities such as the one we are both
    > > posting in provides. MVPs play a definitely positive role in this

    regards.
    >
    > About 75% of the VB MVPs have, let's say, "negative feelings" toward this

    abomination
    > I prefer to call VFred. That number is trending upward, btw, despite

    (because of?)
    > Microsoft's most earnest evangelism within that small group.


    I am not surprised that such a large percentage of MVPs have at least mixed
    feelings about VB.NET Karl. It is a radical upgrade to VB that IMO fixes a
    lot of overdue issues with VB. I hope whatever percentage of MVPs choose to
    remain with VB continue to help the community in the time honoured
    tradition.

    > Later... Karl


    Cheers,

    Kunle



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