Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?

[Ed]

Reading the various postings, it is becoming clear that most participants
either love Microsoft or hate Microsoft and each side supports their position
with facts, antidotes, rumors, etc. As always the truth
is somewhere in the middle. Microsoft does make good products and Microsoft
needs to improve. This forum should be one where developers, customers, etc.
can voice their issues and concerns about what Microsoft does or doesn't
do with their product offerings.

My number one concern is the customer is NOT Microsoft's number one priority.
The material disclosed during their latest anti-thrust case indicates that
Microsoft is obsessed with beating their competition. Microsoft is so focused
on their competition that they have lost or losing sight of their customers.

Many of you will say, it isn’t so. But let's look at the facts.

1. Microsoft doesn't have anything coming close to a User Group that most
other IT Companies have. Yes, these groups are bureaucratic and cumbersome.
But at least their is a formal mechanism for people to voice their concerns
and suggestions. The announcement of assigning YAG to the VB Product team
is Microsoft's reluctant way of agreeing with
this observation. However, what Microsoft has done with YAG is simply throwing
the VB Community a bone. Everyone should be able to agree that the VB.Net
strategy has some significant shortcomings. A VB User’s forum would have
given Microsoft important and immediate feedback. But when Marketing is
looking after future product direction and features and the company’s number
one priority is beating the competition, then customer concerns get lost.
Do you think the following conversation ever happened at Microsoft:

MS Staff #1, We have to get VB onto the .Net bandwagon.

MS Staff #2, That sounds like a good idea but there will be some migration
problems going from VB6 to .Net.

MS Staff #1, Ya, that sounds like it may be a problem. But remember, we
need .Net to beat Java, Linux, Sun, Sony, etc. So, let’s go. We're betting
the company on .Net. Besides what are the VBers going to do. Take their
code to Linux or Unix. Don’t think so. Not an issue.

You think that maybe this conversation would be different if someone around
the table from the VB User Community were present and said something like:

A lot of the developers really like .Net but we have some serious concerns.
Firstly, we have a community of VB developers who have a migration problem
going from VB6 to .Net. Is there anything you can do to make this migration
smoother. Maybe you could support both versions for the time being until
you can provide the tools to make migration easier. Secondly, we have a
community of VB developers who want the product to remain easy to use. There
is no real desire for these developers to program enterprise applications.
What can you do to continue to make VB easy to use?


2. For years, customers have been complaining about security.
Microsoft makes some token announcement but doesn't really do anything about
it. When your number one priority is
beating the competition, customer concerns are secondary. Finally, a Gartner
analyst announces that customers should not use Microsoft IIS for their Web
hosting platform because of it's serious security shortcomings.
What’s the reaction? The Microsoft lovers say that the analyst doesn't know
what he is talking about. Security problems are simply a product of Microsoft’s
success. Guess what. Bill Gates announces that Trustworthy Computing is
now Microsoft's Number 1 priority. What happen here? What happen to betting
the company on .Net? Well, suddenly
customers are hitting Microsoft over the head with a 2 by 4 and they're finally
listening to their customers.


The biggest problem with Microsoft today is that it is too obsessed with
beating down the competition. This is not to say that it should completely
ignore its competition. But it shouldn't be so obsessed that it is blind
to other aspects of its business such as its customers. Customers have every
right to voice their concerns about what their supplier is doing with its
products and services. I know that you can’t satisfy everyone. But that
is what companies have to do; they have to balance their vision of the future
with their current and future customer’s vision of the future. The closer
those two visions are the more successful the company. It is time for Microsoft
to put customers number one and make beating the competition number 2 or
3 because if they satisfy their customers better than their competition,
then beating the competition takes care of itself. There are serious concerns
coming from the VB community. Writing these concerns off as rants from Microsoft
hater’s is not doing justice to these concerns. If Microsoft is serious
about making the customer number 1, then they better start finding better
ways of getting customer feedback and addressing customer concerns. By the
way, listening to IT management and developers from Fortune 100 companies
is not my idea of listening to your customers.

[Cali LaFollett]

> 1. Microsoft doesn't have anything coming close to a User Group that most
> other IT Companies have. Yes, these groups are bureaucratic and
cumbersome.
> But at least their is a formal mechanism for people to voice their
concerns
> and suggestions. The announcement of assigning YAG to the VB Product team
> is Microsoft's reluctant way of agreeing with
> this observation. However, what Microsoft has done with YAG is simply
throwing
> the VB Community a bone. Everyone should be able to agree that the VB.Net
> strategy has some significant shortcomings. A VB User’s forum would have
> given Microsoft important and immediate feedback. But when Marketing is
> looking after future product direction and features and the company’s
number
> one priority is beating the competition, then customer concerns get lost.
> Do you think the following conversation ever happened at Microsoft:


Ed,

Not to burst your bubble but have you gone to the "news.microsoft.com" news
groups lately (i.e. within the past year). There are NGs for VB.NET as well
as the rest of .NET in general (Framework, CLR, Interop, C#, etc....)

Try pointing your news reader to this one:

"microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.vb"

There are also several VB.NET NGs in other languages if you are interested.
I have found that MS devs and support personnel frequent the .NET NGs quite
often and often listen and assist where they can.

Cal

[Phil Weber]

> The material disclosed during their latest anti-thrust case...

Ed: "Anti-thrust?" ;-)

> You think that maybe this conversation would be different if
> someone around the table from the VB User Community were
> present and said something like: A lot of the developers really
> like .Net but we have some serious concerns. Firstly, we have
> a community of VB developers who have a migration problem
> going from VB6 to .Net...

That is *exactly* what happened. I was there. The VB MVPs Microsoft brought
to Redmond last March said (almost verbatim) what you posted, and the .NET
dev team responded with several changes in Beta 2 to make VB.NET somewhat
more compatible with VB6. The team also assured us that we had not told them
anything that they had not already considered, and that after having weighed
matters carefully, they felt that they had good reasons for making the
changes they did in VB.NET.

At that point, what more could we do? The MVPs had done their best to convey
the concerns of the VB community, and MS assured us that they understood
them, but had decided that its vision of the future of VB was different from
that of the MVPs. A few of the MVPs shifted their focus on what could be
done in future versions (such as implementing edit-and-continue and the "Dim
X As (Y To Z)" array syntax) to make VB.NET more appealing to "Classic" VB
users. Others continued to stress the importance of backward compatibility,
while still others grew silent, apparently throwing up their hands in
disgust.

Bottom line: MS is well aware of the concerns of the VB community, and is
going to do with VB.NET what it thinks is best regardless. All we can do at
this point is vote with our wallets.
---
Phil Weber

[Mike Mitchell]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 22:05:37 -0800, "Phil Weber"
<pweberonline@fawcette.com> wrote:

> > The material disclosed during their latest anti-thrust case...

Something introduced to rein in Bill Clinton's amorous fantasies?

MM
"Look, Barney, Spot, I can balance a pretzel on my tonsils...aaarggh."

[Kunle Odutola]

"Phil Weber" <pweberonline@fawcette.com> wrote in message
news:3c4a4e96$1@147.208.176.211...

> That is *exactly* what happened. I was there. The VB MVPs Microsoft
brought
> to Redmond last March said (almost verbatim) what you posted,

*All* the MVPs were "against" VB.NET? They *all* wanted a VB7.NET?

> At that point, what more could we do? The MVPs had done their best to
convey
> the concerns of the VB community, and MS assured us that they understood
> them, but had decided that its vision of the future of VB was different
from
> that of the MVPs.

I am happy that MS was brave enough to make the changes. I hope the code
migration tools (last tried them in Beta 1/2) have improved too. But
overall, VB.NET had to happen IMO. It happened almost too late too. C# is
one **** of a language...

> Others continued to stress the importance of backward compatibility,
> while still others grew silent, apparently throwing up their hands in
> disgust.

> Bottom line: MS is well aware of the concerns of the VB community, and is
> going to do with VB.NET what it thinks is best regardless. All we can do
at
> this point is vote with our wallets.

Hasn't this always been the case?. How did we get to this situation when
everything that MS did VB/BASIC in the past is revered and all it is doing
today is villified?

Wait.....wait....this is how things have always been. Remember
QBASIC/PDS/VB-DOS/Windows? VB3/VB4?
It always happen when the underlying platform changes. I'm OK now.

Kunle

[Mark Hurd]

"Ed" <ed_raffin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c49a672$1@147.208.176.211...
>
> My number one concern is the customer is NOT Microsoft's number one
priority.
> The material disclosed during their latest anti-thrust case indicates that
> Microsoft is obsessed with beating their competition. Microsoft is so
focused
> on their competition that they have lost or losing sight of their customers.
>

Many (or at least two) of Microsoft's competition is too obsessed with beating
Microsoft.

Regards,
Mark Hurd, B.Sc.(Ma.) (Hons.)

[Mike Mitchell]

On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:09:16 +1030, "Mark Hurd"
<markhurd@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

>Many (or at least two) of Microsoft's competition is too obsessed with beating
>Microsoft.
>

Oh? And do they have Conclusions in Law against them as well?

MM

[Yair Alan Griver [MSFT]]

I just wanted to respond to your message.

I wouldn't call what we're doing "throwing the VB community a bone". There
is a concerted effort within MS to focus harder on community building and
fostering the 2-way communication that is necessary. It's an ongoing
process - we've had the MVP community for quite a while (I was one of them
for years), there are also regular customer meetings.

As part of these efforts, all the groups at MS (not just developer tools)
are looking at how they can best work with the customer. Many of the groups
are bringing in people from the community, like me, to focus on this effort
and ensure that we're doing what we can.

So, let's talk about what *I'm* doing right now. My time is being spent
gathering information on who is doing what community efforts here so that we
can begin coordinating them. I'm also collecting a group of ideas of what we
can do better - and I plan on posting many of them for your votes on what
the order of implementation should be.

I am very gratified that I've been getting swamped with emails telling me
exactly what I should be doing <g> - makes my life easier... <g>

yag

"Ed" <ed_raffin@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c49a672$1@147.208.176.211...
>
> Reading the various postings, it is becoming clear that most participants
> either love Microsoft or hate Microsoft and each side supports their
position
> with facts, antidotes, rumors, etc. As always the truth
> is somewhere in the middle. Microsoft does make good products and
Microsoft
> needs to improve. This forum should be one where developers, customers,
etc.
> can voice their issues and concerns about what Microsoft does or doesn't
> do with their product offerings.
>
> My number one concern is the customer is NOT Microsoft's number one
priority.
> The material disclosed during their latest anti-thrust case indicates that
> Microsoft is obsessed with beating their competition. Microsoft is so
focused
> on their competition that they have lost or losing sight of their
customers.
>
> Many of you will say, it isn't so. But let's look at the facts.
>
> 1. Microsoft doesn't have anything coming close to a User Group that most
> other IT Companies have. Yes, these groups are bureaucratic and
cumbersome.
> But at least their is a formal mechanism for people to voice their
concerns
> and suggestions. The announcement of assigning YAG to the VB Product team
> is Microsoft's reluctant way of agreeing with
> this observation. However, what Microsoft has done with YAG is simply
throwing
> the VB Community a bone. Everyone should be able to agree that the VB.Net
> strategy has some significant shortcomings. A VB User's forum would have
> given Microsoft important and immediate feedback. But when Marketing is
> looking after future product direction and features and the company's
number
> one priority is beating the competition, then customer concerns get lost.
> Do you think the following conversation ever happened at Microsoft:
>
> MS Staff #1, We have to get VB onto the .Net bandwagon.
>
> MS Staff #2, That sounds like a good idea but there will be some
migration
> problems going from VB6 to .Net.
>
> MS Staff #1, Ya, that sounds like it may be a problem. But remember, we
> need .Net to beat Java, Linux, Sun, Sony, etc. So, let's go. We're
betting
> the company on .Net. Besides what are the VBers going to do. Take their
> code to Linux or Unix. Don't think so. Not an issue.
>
> You think that maybe this conversation would be different if someone
around
> the table from the VB User Community were present and said something like:
>
> A lot of the developers really like .Net but we have some serious
concerns.
> Firstly, we have a community of VB developers who have a migration
problem
> going from VB6 to .Net. Is there anything you can do to make this
migration
> smoother. Maybe you could support both versions for the time being until
> you can provide the tools to make migration easier. Secondly, we have a
> community of VB developers who want the product to remain easy to use.
There
> is no real desire for these developers to program enterprise applications.
> What can you do to continue to make VB easy to use?
>
>
> 2. For years, customers have been complaining about security.
> Microsoft makes some token announcement but doesn't really do anything
about
> it. When your number one priority is
> beating the competition, customer concerns are secondary. Finally, a
Gartner
> analyst announces that customers should not use Microsoft IIS for their
Web
> hosting platform because of it's serious security shortcomings.
> What's the reaction? The Microsoft lovers say that the analyst doesn't
know
> what he is talking about. Security problems are simply a product of
Microsoft's
> success. Guess what. Bill Gates announces that Trustworthy Computing is
> now Microsoft's Number 1 priority. What happen here? What happen to
betting
> the company on .Net? Well, suddenly
> customers are hitting Microsoft over the head with a 2 by 4 and they're
finally
> listening to their customers.
>
>
> The biggest problem with Microsoft today is that it is too obsessed with
> beating down the competition. This is not to say that it should completely
> ignore its competition. But it shouldn't be so obsessed that it is blind
> to other aspects of its business such as its customers. Customers have
every
> right to voice their concerns about what their supplier is doing with its
> products and services. I know that you can't satisfy everyone. But that
> is what companies have to do; they have to balance their vision of the
future
> with their current and future customer's vision of the future. The closer
> those two visions are the more successful the company. It is time for
Microsoft
> to put customers number one and make beating the competition number 2 or
> 3 because if they satisfy their customers better than their competition,
> then beating the competition takes care of itself. There are serious
concerns
> coming from the VB community. Writing these concerns off as rants from
Microsoft
> hater's is not doing justice to these concerns. If Microsoft is serious
> about making the customer number 1, then they better start finding better
> ways of getting customer feedback and addressing customer concerns. By
the
> way, listening to IT management and developers from Fortune 100 companies
> is not my idea of listening to your customers.
>
>
>

[Mike Mitchell]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:21:11 -0800, "Yair Alan Griver [MSFT]"
<yag@microsoft.com> wrote:

>I wouldn't call what we're doing "throwing the VB community a bone". There
>is a concerted effort within MS to focus harder on community building and
>fostering the 2-way communication that is necessary. It's an ongoing
>process - we've had the MVP community for quite a while (I was one of them
>for years), there are also regular customer meetings.

Here's a thought: What will Microsoft do if VB.NET is largely ignored?
Boycotted, even? Okay, so maybe a few thousand of the most stalwart
evangelists -- you know, the ones with brains the size of gas trucks
-- will be in their sleeping bags outside Redmond Towers on The Night
of the Launch (cue weird Stephen King-like music), but I'm thinking of
the huge numbers of VB users/programmers/occasional programmers who
will slowly start to realise that the New Version is hardly anything
like VB6, let alone VB1 through 5. So, what then, I wonder?

Of course, you'll use the Microsoft billions to blanket advertise your
way out of the "none today, thank you, Missah Bill, suh" scenario; but
what then, I wonder? What if you can't GIVE the product away? What
will Microsoft do if there is a huge mass protest, viz Coke, Pepsi, to
Bring Back VB? What would three million programmers marching down One
Hegemony Way need do in order to impress upon Microsoft that what
they're doing with classic VB is crassly unfair? I mean, you're not
even saying to those three million "Gee, thanks for sticking with us
for ten years, but it's time to move on." All you seem to be implying
is that the next version is the replacement and, with the conversion
tool, everything will be hunky dory. I don't know 'bout America, but
over here there are rules and laws about mispresenting the facts.

So, I appreciate you've been handed a poisoned chalice, if it's your
job to be cheerleader this month, but as long as you keep passing the
good -- and bad -- feedback "upstairs", maybe His Billness will wake
up one morning, cancel the entire .NET project as being not ready yet
for his security/trustworthiness makeovers and then we can all go back
to using the product we have been using, we want to keep on using, and
that our clients know they can continue to depend upon, rather than
have the Sword of Damocles hanging over it and them.

....and now, with those immortal words learned at the bosom of all
protest (thanks, Karl),

HTH!

MM

[Kunle Odutola]

"Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3c4f40a7.11061492@news.devx.com...

> >I wouldn't call what we're doing "throwing the VB community a bone".
There
> >is a concerted effort within MS to focus harder on community building and
> >fostering the 2-way communication that is necessary. It's an ongoing
> >process - we've had the MVP community for quite a while (I was one of
them
> >for years), there are also regular customer meetings.

> Here's a thought: What will Microsoft do if VB.NET is largely ignored?

You probbaly hope it will implement a parser for 100% VB6 syntax. Ever
thought about doing it yourself?

Kunle

[Zane Thomas]

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:20:13 GMT, kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Mitchell)
wrote:

>What will Microsoft do if VB.NET is largely ignored?

I don't think that's the right question. The right question is: What
will the rest of us do if VB.NET is largely ignored. Answer: We will own
RAD for Windows five years from now and you will be working in some TV
repair shop.


--
When freedom is outlawed
only outlaws will be free.

[Yair Alan Griver [MSFT]]

I can't tell you what will happen if it's largely ignored because I don't
think it will happen. I've developed systems using it. I've developed under
BASIC in DOS all the way thru till now. I've debugged COBOL. I've developed
with dBase, Clipper, Foxbase, FoxPro etc. Heck, I even worked on a COM-based
app that included Delphi. <g>

..NET development is fun. More than that it shows a *ton* of promise. I'm
here in this position not because I was forced to but because I volunteered.
I was a consultant/speaker/author for 13 years. Sold my company. I was a CIO
for a public company. I'm saying this to tell you where I come from. I'm
financially secure, I've accomplished a lot of my goals. I was looking for a
job where I could have fun, make a difference, and work with cool people. I
get off on helping people grow. That's why I'm here.

I'm not here as a cheerleader - I'm here to tell you what I really believe.
To take your feedback and make sure that the input goes into the product. I
can promise you that people hear what you say. I can't promise that you'll
get what you want.

Again, I really believe in .NET - I've seen it at work in shipping
applications that I was involved with as a non-MS person. I also really
believe in the promise of community. I think that the community has been
wounded - and not only thru MS actions. I've complained about features and
changes in products also. I've also realized when it's just getting
repetitive. You're free to keep this up - I don't mind. I'd be reading your
stuff even if I was still outside of MS - I enjoy people who are passionate
and can write eloquently. I happen to be one of them <g>

So, I'll stay here, listening, working with the product team to incorporate
as much feedback as we can. Over the next few weeks I'll be coming back with
ideas for ways we can all work more closely together - some will get
ridiculed, some won't. Cool.

yag


"Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3c4f40a7.11061492@news.devx.com...
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:21:11 -0800, "Yair Alan Griver [MSFT]"
> <yag@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> >I wouldn't call what we're doing "throwing the VB community a bone".
There
> >is a concerted effort within MS to focus harder on community building and
> >fostering the 2-way communication that is necessary. It's an ongoing
> >process - we've had the MVP community for quite a while (I was one of
them
> >for years), there are also regular customer meetings.
>
> Here's a thought: What will Microsoft do if VB.NET is largely ignored?
> Boycotted, even? Okay, so maybe a few thousand of the most stalwart
> evangelists -- you know, the ones with brains the size of gas trucks
> -- will be in their sleeping bags outside Redmond Towers on The Night
> of the Launch (cue weird Stephen King-like music), but I'm thinking of
> the huge numbers of VB users/programmers/occasional programmers who
> will slowly start to realise that the New Version is hardly anything
> like VB6, let alone VB1 through 5. So, what then, I wonder?
>
> Of course, you'll use the Microsoft billions to blanket advertise your
> way out of the "none today, thank you, Missah Bill, suh" scenario; but
> what then, I wonder? What if you can't GIVE the product away? What
> will Microsoft do if there is a huge mass protest, viz Coke, Pepsi, to
> Bring Back VB? What would three million programmers marching down One
> Hegemony Way need do in order to impress upon Microsoft that what
> they're doing with classic VB is crassly unfair? I mean, you're not
> even saying to those three million "Gee, thanks for sticking with us
> for ten years, but it's time to move on." All you seem to be implying
> is that the next version is the replacement and, with the conversion
> tool, everything will be hunky dory. I don't know 'bout America, but
> over here there are rules and laws about mispresenting the facts.
>
> So, I appreciate you've been handed a poisoned chalice, if it's your
> job to be cheerleader this month, but as long as you keep passing the
> good -- and bad -- feedback "upstairs", maybe His Billness will wake
> up one morning, cancel the entire .NET project as being not ready yet
> for his security/trustworthiness makeovers and then we can all go back
> to using the product we have been using, we want to keep on using, and
> that our clients know they can continue to depend upon, rather than
> have the Sword of Damocles hanging over it and them.
>
> ...and now, with those immortal words learned at the bosom of all
> protest (thanks, Karl),
>
> HTH!
>
> MM

[Ray Collins]

Since you didn't bother with a response to my post in the other thread I
will post it (in part) again here.

Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much weight to the opinions of the
minority of VB programmers that hang out in newsgroups like this and ask the
majority of registered users what they think about VB and what they use it
for.

I have been a registered user of VB since version 1 and never has Microsoft
communicated with me except to tell me there was a new version and how much
it would cost to keep up. In this day and age how much could it cost for M$
to survey their registered users ? And having asked them maybe listen as
well.

I think it is a safe bet that what the majority of past/current VB
programmers want is not the same as what the "high end"
VB programmers that you love to talk to want.

What are you going to do about talking to and listening to the majority of
VB users ?

[Yair Alan Griver [MSFT]]

Well, I can't tell you what's been done so far, but I'm planning on doing
the following:

1. Hanging out in newsgroups and the web.
2. Going to conferences and talking to people.
3. Going to customers and talking to them.
4. Going to User Groups and talking to people there.

I'm also looking for various survey information that I know exists here
somewhere (remember, I've been here 7 or so days so far). If I need to, I'll
go further.

But, I won't do all of it today. Or tomorrow. Though I have managed to get
to a Seattle-based UG this week.

btw, If we posit (as you did in a prior message) that there are 3 million VB
users out there, for me to talk to the majority is impossible. Will there be
a survey done? They're done all the time. FWIW, in the past 10 years, I was
called twice. Just lucky I guess.

Right now, I'm in planning/learning mode.

yag

"Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:3c4f5979@10.1.10.29...
> Since you didn't bother with a response to my post in the other thread I
> will post it (in part) again here.
>
> Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much weight to the opinions of
the
> minority of VB programmers that hang out in newsgroups like this and ask
the
> majority of registered users what they think about VB and what they use it
> for.
>
> I have been a registered user of VB since version 1 and never has
Microsoft
> communicated with me except to tell me there was a new version and how
much
> it would cost to keep up. In this day and age how much could it cost for
M$
> to survey their registered users ? And having asked them maybe listen as
> well.
>
> I think it is a safe bet that what the majority of past/current VB
> programmers want is not the same as what the "high end"
> VB programmers that you love to talk to want.
>
> What are you going to do about talking to and listening to the majority of
> VB users ?
>
>
>

[Rob Teixeira]

"Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much weight to the opinions of
the
>minority of VB programmers that hang out in newsgroups like this and ask
the
>majority of registered users what they think about VB and what they use
it
>for.
>

Interesting that both you and Karl seem to bring this point up, because my
experience is quite the opposite. Aside from these online forums, I've yet
to see a real-life VB programmer who hasn't adopted .NET. All the clients
I'm currently working with are moving (quite happily and successfully I might
add) to .NET.

The problem is, who's judging "majority"?
I certainly won't claim that a majority of VB users feel one way or the other.
I highly doubt you, I, or anyone else in this forum has hard data to determine
who the "majority" really is to begin with. You might "feel" you know who
they are, but is that really fact?

Having said that, I do agree with you that it would be a good idea for MS
to interact more directly with the community.

-Rob