Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?

[Ray Collins]

"Yair Alan Griver [MSFT]" <yag@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:3c4f72f1$1@10.1.10.29...
> Well, I can't tell you what's been done so far, but I'm planning on doing
> the following:
>
> 1. Hanging out in newsgroups and the web.

Generally "high end" users or users with a problem/issue who are looking for
an answer then depart. Looking at the names and occupations of these people
(when they are provided), not what I would call indicative of the VB
majority.

> 2. Going to conferences and talking to people.

Corporate/Govt.

> 3. Going to customers and talking to them.

Corporate/Govt.

> 4. Going to User Groups and talking to people there.
Mostly Corporate/Govt.

You can see why this version of VB is so focused on enterprise development.
If you actually break down the sales numbers for VB how many copies do you
sell to corporate vs. individuals/small business ? When counting I mean VB
not Studio.

The things that the "high end" of town want to do can be done by any number
of development applications. They can hire in the talent required, the small
end of town has to use their own resources. Unfortunatly the number of
products that deliver for the small end of town is disappearing rapidly.

Somewhere along the way M$ either forgot or decided to ignore what made VB
such a popular product. It will now be interesting to see how much they
suffer for it.

> I'm also looking for various survey information that I know exists here
> somewhere (remember, I've been here 7 or so days so far). If I need to,
I'll
> go further.
>
> But, I won't do all of it today. Or tomorrow. Though I have managed to get
> to a Seattle-based UG this week.
>
> btw, If we posit (as you did in a prior message) that there are 3 million
VB
> users out there, for me to talk to the majority is impossible. Will there
be
> a survey done? They're done all the time. FWIW, in the past 10 years, I
was
> called twice. Just lucky I guess.

Or you live in the same counrty as the developers. :-)

> Right now, I'm in planning/learning mode.
>
> yag
>
> "Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:3c4f5979@10.1.10.29...
> > Since you didn't bother with a response to my post in the other thread I
> > will post it (in part) again here.
> >
> > Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much weight to the opinions of
> the
> > minority of VB programmers that hang out in newsgroups like this and ask
> the
> > majority of registered users what they think about VB and what they use
it
> > for.
> >
> > I have been a registered user of VB since version 1 and never has
> Microsoft
> > communicated with me except to tell me there was a new version and how
> much
> > it would cost to keep up. In this day and age how much could it cost for
> M$
> > to survey their registered users ? And having asked them maybe listen as
> > well.
> >
> > I think it is a safe bet that what the majority of past/current VB
> > programmers want is not the same as what the "high end"
> > VB programmers that you love to talk to want.
> >
> > What are you going to do about talking to and listening to the majority
of
> > VB users ?
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Ray Collins]

Corporates !

Who talks to the small/medium business people and the individuals who
purchased VB.
It would be a good idea for M$ to take a look at the sales breakdowns and/or
registered users and see if maybe they have been listening to the wrong
group.

Maybe the VB community isn't really who they think it is.

"Rob Teixeira" <RobTeixeira@@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3c4f77aa$1@10.1.10.29...
>
> "Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote:
> >
> >Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much weight to the opinions of
> the
> >minority of VB programmers that hang out in newsgroups like this and ask
> the
> >majority of registered users what they think about VB and what they use
> it
> >for.
> >
>
> Interesting that both you and Karl seem to bring this point up, because my
> experience is quite the opposite. Aside from these online forums, I've yet
> to see a real-life VB programmer who hasn't adopted .NET. All the clients
> I'm currently working with are moving (quite happily and successfully I
might
> add) to .NET.
>
> The problem is, who's judging "majority"?
> I certainly won't claim that a majority of VB users feel one way or the
other.
> I highly doubt you, I, or anyone else in this forum has hard data to
determine
> who the "majority" really is to begin with. You might "feel" you know who
> they are, but is that really fact?
>
> Having said that, I do agree with you that it would be a good idea for MS
> to interact more directly with the community.
>
> -Rob

[Dan Barclay]

PMJI, but I can answer a couple of those.

> If VB6 handles the applications you write then what is the
>problem?

No more problem than for someone who wanted to stay in DOS or VB3.
Certainly those handled our applications *then*, so are you proposing
we should not have moved forward?

>Is VB.Net missing some feature that you were hoping for... one
>that VB6 doesn't have?

See below:

Dan
Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
(#6)

[GregD.]

"Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:3c4f7b6c@10.1.10.29...
>
>
> > 4. Going to User Groups and talking to people there.
> Mostly Corporate/Govt.
>
> You can see why this version of VB is so focused on enterprise
development.
> If you actually break down the sales numbers for VB how many copies do you
> sell to corporate vs. individuals/small business ? When counting I mean
VB
> not Studio.
>
> The things that the "high end" of town want to do can be done by any
number
> of development applications. They can hire in the talent required, the
small
> end of town has to use their own resources. Unfortunatly the number of
> products that deliver for the small end of town is disappearing rapidly.


As spokesman for the "Small End of Town" what makes you feel the need to
upgrade? If VB6 handles the applications you write then what is the
problem? Is VB.Net missing some feature that you were hoping for... one
that VB6 doesn't have?

Greg Davis

[Mark Jerde]

GregD.,

> If VB6 handles the applications you write then what is the
> problem?

Where do you buy it? We recently added another person to our
consultancy, and some time in the future he may be doing some
software development. But he doesn't own VB6.

Some of our clients are businesses whose notion of ROI is
fielding a working system for a number of years. One client is
a multi-site, Oracle-on-refrigerator-size Sun shop. They're
part way through a multiyear government contract. Do you think
they're very receptive to adding another architecture to their
system? No, we need to work within their current architecture.

So, since VB6 isn't for sale anymore, and doesn't even come on a
new MSDN Universal subscription (from what I could tell from the
lists) the new guy is working his way through a Delphi tutorial.
I hated Pascal in college, and I still don't like it very much,
but MS didn't leave us much choice.

-- Mark

[W.E.(Bill) Goodrich, PhD]

In article <3c4f72f1$1@10.1.10.29>,
"Yair Alan Griver [MSFT]" <yag@microsoft.com> writes:

> Well, I can't tell you what's been done so far, but I'm planning on
> doing the following:
>
> 1. Hanging out in newsgroups and the web.
> 2. Going to conferences and talking to people.
> 3. Going to customers and talking to them.

WHICH customers? That is the key question. How are you going to get
beyond the "Corporate/Government" and hobbyist groups - or are you?

> 4. Going to User Groups and talking to people there.

As others here have pointed out, the measures you describe here are
mostly going to yield a heavily weighted sample, rather than one which
represents the broader user base. Specifically, they seem very likely
to miss the very large population of "non programmers" - people for
whom programming is not an end unto itself, but is an occasionally
used background activity (much like writing or arithmetic) used in
service of their "real" jobs and/or interests. These are the people
who were sold VB as a user friendly package allowing beginners (the
"B" in BASIC) to quickly and easily produce functioning Windows
programs. They are not developers. They are not even hobbyists.

These are the people for whom the answer to your earlier "Is there a
lot to learn? Yes. I it worth it?" is a resounding No! They are the
ones who spent a few minutes with a book or tutorial getting far
enough along to launch a "Hello World" app, and then a couple of hours
over the next few days learning just enough to be able to point and
click the UI and cobble together some simple calculations in the
relevant IDE-generated functions. While their code is not likely to be
as elegant as that of a trained, professional programmer, it does what
they want, how and when they want. It solves incidental problems,
rather than creating commercial products or the like.

They are also the people for whom VB.NET represents a large step
backwards.

> I'm also looking for various survey information that I know exists
> here somewhere (remember, I've been here 7 or so days so far). If I
> need to, I'll go further.

While you are doing so, find and go through the self-descriptions in
the registrations of people who bought VB (rather than getting it as
a part of VS).

> But, I won't do all of it today. Or tomorrow. Though I have managed
> to get to a Seattle-based UG this week.

Like the people in NGs and Conferences, members of UGs are almost
exclusively those for whom programming is an end unto itself (as a
hobby, profession, or aspiration).

> btw, If we posit (as you did in a prior message) that there are 3
> million VB users out there, for me to talk to the majority is
> impossible.

But to talk to statistically representative samples thereof is not.

> Will there be a survey done? They're done all the time. FWIW, in the
> past 10 years, I was called twice. Just lucky I guess.

Do you suppose that had anything to do with your MVP status and what
went into it?

> Right now, I'm in planning/learning mode.

Then perhaps you can learn from the errors of your predecessors. They
heavily weighted their information-gathering toward relatively narrow
segments of the VB user base, and ended up favoring design features
which encourage those narrow groups but discourage the wider VB
community.

In a recent thread, I described a project for which VB.NET was not
appropriate (but VB6 was). While the individual details varied, the
unanimous reply from the pro-.NET people here (who responded) was
"change the project to suit the tool". Some parts of the potential
customer base for VB.NET may be willing to change their projects to
suit the tool, but many more are going to be re-evaluating whether the
tool (VB and/or .NET) is worth the trouble. And the loss of "beginner
friendliness" is going to be a factor, as is the loss of language
stability (as Dan Barclay has described at length). As will the history
and perceptions of security problems, OS instability and errors, and
vendor instability (and lack of trustworthiness).

--

W.E. (Bill) Goodrich, PhD

*-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*
* CHANGE YOUR SEXUALITY * http://www.nyx.net/~bgoodric/ctg.html *
* * *
* Without Aversive * ctgcentral@earthlink.net *
* Behavior Modification * Creative Technology Group *
* or Drugs * PO Box 286 *
* * Englewood, CO 80151-0286 *
*-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*

[Phil Weber]

> You can see why this version of VB is so focused on
> enterprise development.

Ray: VB has been focused on "enterprise development" since version 4.0. That
hasn't prevented people like yourself from using it for standalone desktop
apps and myriad other creative applications. Similarly, the fact that
Microsoft is marketing .NET as an enterprise development platform does not
prevent you from using it to develop the types of apps you've been able to
develop in previous versions of VB.
---
Phil Weber

[Ray Collins]

You mean like edit and continue :-)

What I was looking forward to was opening up my code in the next version of
VB and maybe removing some work arounds I may have 'cause they weren't
needed anymore, adding some *cool* new feature of VB7 that I hadn't thought
of but now that its there I will use it and recompiling and getting on with
the rest of my job.

I should have been able to just use the new version to do what I have always
done and pickup on the new stuff in it as I needed it or wanted it. I can't
do that with vb.Net, from the time I open it its all new and a massive
uphill climb that just doesn't seem to be worth it 'cause there is nothing
surer than by the time I master it the lunatics will change it again..

VB6 does what I need to do at the moment, but I would love a decent menu
editor :-)
But I have my copy and can keep using it, what about the new starters who
can't buy it anymore?
Of course I expect the numbers of components to start drying up so after a
while that really useful feature of buying the bits I need won't be
available anymore. :-(

"GregD." <gdavis@No_spam.citynetworks.com> wrote in message
news:3c4f9e4c$3@10.1.10.29...
>
> "Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:3c4f7b6c@10.1.10.29...
> >
> >
> > > 4. Going to User Groups and talking to people there.
> > Mostly Corporate/Govt.
> >
> > You can see why this version of VB is so focused on enterprise
> development.
> > If you actually break down the sales numbers for VB how many copies do
you
> > sell to corporate vs. individuals/small business ? When counting I
mean
> VB
> > not Studio.
> >
> > The things that the "high end" of town want to do can be done by any
> number
> > of development applications. They can hire in the talent required, the
> small
> > end of town has to use their own resources. Unfortunatly the number of
> > products that deliver for the small end of town is disappearing rapidly.
>
>
> As spokesman for the "Small End of Town" what makes you feel the need to
> upgrade? If VB6 handles the applications you write then what is the
> problem? Is VB.Net missing some feature that you were hoping for... one
> that VB6 doesn't have?
>
> Greg Davis
>
>

[Phil Weber]

> Where do you buy it?

Mark: Have you asked Microsoft Sales? I'm told MS will continue to sell VB6
for some time after it's officially "discontinued." You also have the option
of purchasing a license for the current version of Visual Studio and
"downgrading" to an earlier version (see
http://www.microsoft.com/permission/...htm#Downgrades ).
---
Phil Weber

[Ray Collins]

No, but it didn't make it harder for me either :-)
Maybe if they weren't so focused on the enterprise stuff VB may have gotten
some of the simple things like a decent menu editor years ago.

I want to build a Lego house and they have given me a Lego technical set to
build it with, and the Lego plans for the house I built last time don't work
with these new pieces. :-(

By the time I work out what all these new pieces are for I won't want the
house anymore or somebody else will have built it.

"Phil Weber" <pweberonline@fawcette.com> wrote in message
news:3c4fc9ec$1@10.1.10.29...
> > You can see why this version of VB is so focused on
> > enterprise development.
>
> Ray: VB has been focused on "enterprise development" since version 4.0.
That
> hasn't prevented people like yourself from using it for standalone desktop
> apps and myriad other creative applications. Similarly, the fact that
> Microsoft is marketing .NET as an enterprise development platform does not
> prevent you from using it to develop the types of apps you've been able to
> develop in previous versions of VB.
> ---
> Phil Weber
>
>

[Mark Jerde]

Phil,

I had heard about "downgrades" before but I found nothing about it on the MSDN
Subscriptions site.

At this point it is mostly philosophical for me. MS has discontinued VB6 so
that settles it. I don't buy the dented cans at the grocery store. Besides
that, the only reason I can come up with for MS abandoning VB6 is they are
*only* interested in getting their hands in my wallet on a software
subscription basis.

For me to be at all interested, there would have to be a large button
displayed on the MS web site, "How To Get VB6".

-- Mark

> > Where do you buy it?
>
> Mark: Have you asked Microsoft Sales? I'm told MS will continue to sell VB6
> for some time after it's officially "discontinued." You also have the option
> of purchasing a license for the current version of Visual Studio and
> "downgrading" to an earlier version (see
> http://www.microsoft.com/permission/...htm#Downgrades ).

[Patrick Troughton]

What evidence do you have that makes you believe VB.NET will be any less "stable"
than previous versions of MS Basic. Keep in mind that neither QuickBasic
nor PDS was 100% compatible with VB1, that VB1 for DOS was not 100% compatible
with VB1 for Windows and that VB3 was not 100% compatabile with VB4. For
all you know, VB.NET could be the most stable and long lasting version of
BASIC Microsoft has yet to release.

/Pat

Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:
>
>PMJI, but I can answer a couple of those.
>
>> If VB6 handles the applications you write then what is the
>>problem?
>
>No more problem than for someone who wanted to stay in DOS or VB3.
>Certainly those handled our applications *then*, so are you proposing
>we should not have moved forward?
>
>>Is VB.Net missing some feature that you were hoping for... one
>>that VB6 doesn't have?
>
>See below:
>
>Dan
>Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
> (#6)

[Dave Lewis]

Mark

Mark Jerde wrote:

> GregD.,
>
>
>>If VB6 handles the applications you write then what is the
>>problem?
>>
>
> Where do you buy it? We recently added another person to our
> consultancy, and some time in the future he may be doing some
> software development. But he doesn't own VB6.


Umm, BestBuy. Amazon.com. Lots of other places. Just 'cos .Net is
out, doesn't mean VB6 or VS6 has been yanked. In fact, going by MS's
schedule, they won't stop selling it until later this year (when it will
be 4 years old, BTW). Also, only MS *owns* VB6. Anybody else just
buys a licence...

--
Dave Lewis

[Dan Fergus]

GregD,

MSDN subscription?

Dan

"Mark Jerde" <mark.jerde@spicedhamverizon.net> wrote in message
news:VA.00000064.03076e03@spicedhamverizon.net...
> GregD.,
>
> > If VB6 handles the applications you write then what is the
> > problem?
>
> Where do you buy it? We recently added another person to our
> consultancy, and some time in the future he may be doing some
> software development. But he doesn't own VB6.
>
> Some of our clients are businesses whose notion of ROI is
> fielding a working system for a number of years. One client is
> a multi-site, Oracle-on-refrigerator-size Sun shop. They're
> part way through a multiyear government contract. Do you think
> they're very receptive to adding another architecture to their
> system? No, we need to work within their current architecture.
>
> So, since VB6 isn't for sale anymore, and doesn't even come on a
> new MSDN Universal subscription (from what I could tell from the
> lists) the new guy is working his way through a Delphi tutorial.
> I hated Pascal in college, and I still don't like it very much,
> but MS didn't leave us much choice.
>
> -- Mark
>
>

[Phil Weber]

> I had heard about "downgrades" before but I found nothing
> about it on the MSDN Subscriptions site.

Mark: I found the info in about one minute by searching for "visual basic
downgrade" at http://www.google.com .

> At this point it is mostly philosophical for me.

Yes, I suspected that perhaps you were more interested in complaining than
in actually receiving the answer to your question, but I thought I'd give
you the benefit of the doubt.
---
Phil Weber