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Thread: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?

  1. #31
    Dan Barclay Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?

    On 24 Jan 2002 04:38:41 -0800, "Patrick Troughton"
    <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:

    >
    >What evidence do you have that makes you believe VB.NET will be any less "stable"
    >than previous versions of MS Basic. Keep in mind that neither QuickBasic
    >nor PDS was 100% compatible with VB1, that VB1 for DOS was not 100% compatible
    >with VB1 for Windows and that VB3 was not 100% compatabile with VB4. For
    >all you know, VB.NET could be the most stable and long lasting version of
    >BASIC Microsoft has yet to release.


    The issue is whether the *language* is stable. VB.NET is just a
    development product built, supposedly, on a core of MS Basic as were
    the previous MS Basic products. Likewise Visual C/C++ is a product
    built on a core of C++, as were previous MS C products.

    VB.NET has broken the language and made the language unstable. What
    is so hard to understand about that?

    Are you contending that developer products start and end with new
    releases of tools??? Geezzz, what kinda market are you in? Do you
    think that MS products are handled this way? (free clue: C/C++ is
    included in VS.NET and will be into the 64bit market and beyond)

    Dan


    Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    (#6)

  2. #32
    W.E.(Bill) Goodrich, PhD Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?

    In article <3C501255.3020809@example.net>,
    Dave Lewis <user@example.net> writes:

    > Mark


    > Mark Jerde wrote:


    > > GregD.,


    > >>If VB6 handles the applications you write then what is the
    > >>problem?


    > > Where do you buy it? We recently added another person to our
    > > consultancy, and some time in the future he may be doing some
    > > software development. But he doesn't own VB6.


    > Umm, BestBuy. Amazon.com. Lots of other places. Just 'cos .Net
    > is out, doesn't mean VB6 or VS6 has been yanked. In fact, going by
    > MS's schedule, they won't stop selling it until later this year
    > (when it will be 4 years old, BTW).


    Cite? Last time I looked, M$s Price List gave a cutoff date of 1/11/02
    (for those of you east of the Atlantic, that is January 11 rather than
    November 1), which has already come and gone. According to BestBuy,
    they can no longer get new copies and are limited to existing stock.
    Same for CompUSA. The Micro$oft web site no longer has active links
    for the purchase of VS6 or VB6 (the former links now go to the VS.NET
    pages). They do talk in general about the possibility of getting a
    "downgrade" license, but say only that there *may* be a limited number
    of copies of the software available. Or may not.

    > Also, only MS *owns* VB6. Anybody else just
    > buys a licence...


    And M$ is trying to shift that to "rents" (or "leases") a license.

    --

    W.E. (Bill) Goodrich, PhD

    *-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*
    * CHANGE YOUR SEXUALITY * http://www.nyx.net/~bgoodric/ctg.html *
    * * *
    * Without Aversive * ctgcentral@earthlink.net *
    * Behavior Modification * Creative Technology Group *
    * or Drugs * PO Box 286 *
    * * Englewood, CO 80151-0286 *
    *-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*

  3. #33
    Dan Barclay Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?

    On 24 Jan 2002 11:04:55 -0800, "Patrick Troughton"
    <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:

    >
    >Ah, so you don't have any evidence to support that claim. That's what I thought....


    What sort of evidence are you looking for? What "claim" are you
    asking support for?

    If you are proposing a claim that "VB.NET is not stable" then you'll
    have to make that claim on your own, it is not one I have made.

    If you 're wondering about the issue of stability of the MS Basic
    language then the evidence is in the repeated changes to the language.

    Any claim you (or anyone else) might make about VB.net would be purely
    conjecture. Do you make a claim that VB.NET will be stable? If so,
    on what basis? Extrapolation of past performance of the base language
    doesn't seem to support it. Extrapolation based on statements of the
    vendor (based on previous promises) doesn't seem to support it.
    That's your call, if you want to support that claim.

    Do you have evidence that VB.NET will be stable?

    That's what I thought...

    Dan
    >
    >/Pat
    >Punchcards are a *standard*
    >
    >Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:
    >>On 24 Jan 2002 04:38:41 -0800, "Patrick Troughton"
    >><Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>>What evidence do you have that makes you believe VB.NET will be any less

    >"stable"
    >>>than previous versions of MS Basic. Keep in mind that neither QuickBasic
    >>>nor PDS was 100% compatible with VB1, that VB1 for DOS was not 100% compatible
    >>>with VB1 for Windows and that VB3 was not 100% compatabile with VB4. For
    >>>all you know, VB.NET could be the most stable and long lasting version

    >of
    >>>BASIC Microsoft has yet to release.

    >>
    >>The issue is whether the *language* is stable. VB.NET is just a
    >>development product built, supposedly, on a core of MS Basic as were
    >>the previous MS Basic products. Likewise Visual C/C++ is a product
    >>built on a core of C++, as were previous MS C products.
    >>
    >>VB.NET has broken the language and made the language unstable. What
    >>is so hard to understand about that?
    >>
    >>Are you contending that developer products start and end with new
    >>releases of tools??? Geezzz, what kinda market are you in? Do you
    >>think that MS products are handled this way? (free clue: C/C++ is
    >>included in VS.NET and will be into the 64bit market and beyond)
    >>
    >>Dan


    Language Stability is a *feature* I wish VB had!
    (#6)

  4. #34
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?


    Ah, so you don't have any evidence to support that claim. That's what I thought....

    /Pat
    Punchcards are a *standard*

    Dan Barclay <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote:
    >On 24 Jan 2002 04:38:41 -0800, "Patrick Troughton"
    ><Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>What evidence do you have that makes you believe VB.NET will be any less

    "stable"
    >>than previous versions of MS Basic. Keep in mind that neither QuickBasic
    >>nor PDS was 100% compatible with VB1, that VB1 for DOS was not 100% compatible
    >>with VB1 for Windows and that VB3 was not 100% compatabile with VB4. For
    >>all you know, VB.NET could be the most stable and long lasting version

    of
    >>BASIC Microsoft has yet to release.

    >
    >The issue is whether the *language* is stable. VB.NET is just a
    >development product built, supposedly, on a core of MS Basic as were
    >the previous MS Basic products. Likewise Visual C/C++ is a product
    >built on a core of C++, as were previous MS C products.
    >
    >VB.NET has broken the language and made the language unstable. What
    >is so hard to understand about that?
    >
    >Are you contending that developer products start and end with new
    >releases of tools??? Geezzz, what kinda market are you in? Do you
    >think that MS products are handled this way? (free clue: C/C++ is
    >included in VS.NET and will be into the 64bit market and beyond)
    >
    >Dan



  5. #35
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?

    On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:25:28 -0700, "W.E.(Bill) Goodrich, PhD"
    <bgoodric@netzero.net> wrote:

    >Cite? Last time I looked, M$s Price List gave a cutoff date of 1/11/02
    >(for those of you east of the Atlantic, that is January 11 rather than
    >November 1), which has already come and gone.


    I doubt VB6 will disappear from the msdn subscriber download page for a
    long time. For instance, VC++ 1.52 - a 16-bit compiler now obsolete for
    many years - is still available for download.


    --
    When freedom is outlawed
    only outlaws will be free.

  6. #36
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?


    "Dan Barclay" <Dan@MVPs.org> wrote in message
    news:qvi05uc9mcsirkkjcikg5lliddnir3l5hf@4ax.com...

    > The issue is whether the *language* is stable. VB.NET is just a
    > development product built, supposedly, on a core of MS Basic as were
    > the previous MS Basic products. Likewise Visual C/C++ is a product
    > built on a core of C++, as were previous MS C products.


    Them's the facts Dan!

    > VB.NET has broken the language and made the language unstable. What
    > is so hard to understand about that?


    That is your opinion. Other equally valid but contrary opinions have been
    expressed.

    > Are you contending that developer products start and end with new
    > releases of tools??? Geezzz, what kinda market are you in? Do you
    > think that MS products are handled this way? (free clue: C/C++ is
    > included in VS.NET and will be into the 64bit market and beyond)


    Clue: VS.NET includes *two* flavours of C/C++. One is needed to make
    everything else happen. Including VB.

    Kunle




  7. #37
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?


    > Do you have evidence that VB.NET will be stable?


    Yes. Mono is building a VB.NET compatible compiler. MS is no longer the only
    game in town.
    A group of disaffected but capable MVPs can very easily build a VB6.NET.
    John Gough's book will help loads in that respect.

    Kunle



  8. #38
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?

    On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:01:25 -0000, "Kunle Odutola"
    <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

    >A group of disaffected but capable MVPs can very easily build a VB6.NET.
    >John Gough's book will help loads in that respect.


    And, according to them, there would be one helluva market for it.


    --
    When freedom is outlawed
    only outlaws will be free.

  9. #39
    Rob Teixeira Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?


    Yeah, just don't put the letters V and B on it, and you might just a product
    that won't land you in jail.

    -Rob

    "Kunle Odutola" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >A group of disaffected but capable MVPs can very easily build a VB6.NET.
    >John Gough's book will help loads in that respect.
    >
    >Kunle
    >
    >



  10. #40
    Karl E. Peterson Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?

    "Zane Thomas" <zane@mabry.com> wrote in message
    news:3cc58a57.229091328@news.devx.com...
    > On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:01:25 -0000, "Kunle Odutola"
    > <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    > >A group of disaffected but capable MVPs can very easily build a VB6.NET.
    > >John Gough's book will help loads in that respect.

    >
    > And, according to them, there would be one helluva market for it.


    Actually, I'd only consider that an accurate statement if it were made in more
    relative, less sweeping, terms.
    --
    [Microsoft Basic: 1976-2001, RIP]


  11. #41
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?

    On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:34:29 -0800, "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org>
    wrote:

    >> And, according to them, there would be one helluva market for it.

    >
    >Actually, I'd only consider that an accurate statement if it were made in more
    >relative, less sweeping, terms.


    Which part, the "them" or the "helluva market"?


    --
    When freedom is outlawed
    only outlaws will be free.

  12. #42
    Yair Alan Griver [MSFT] Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?

    >or you live in the same country

    Interesting. Where do you live? The UK? Just a guess from the email address.
    I'm going to be in Paris at the end of February (best friend had his first
    baby). I'd be happy (and I know it's a trip) to meet you or whoever else for
    a non-official lunch.

    As far as the number go, no idea where to find them, but I do promise I'll
    look.

    yag

    "Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote in message
    news:3c4f7b6c@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > "Yair Alan Griver [MSFT]" <yag@microsoft.com> wrote in message
    > news:3c4f72f1$1@10.1.10.29...
    > > Well, I can't tell you what's been done so far, but I'm planning on

    doing
    > > the following:
    > >
    > > 1. Hanging out in newsgroups and the web.

    >
    > Generally "high end" users or users with a problem/issue who are looking

    for
    > an answer then depart. Looking at the names and occupations of these

    people
    > (when they are provided), not what I would call indicative of the VB
    > majority.
    >
    > > 2. Going to conferences and talking to people.

    >
    > Corporate/Govt.
    >
    > > 3. Going to customers and talking to them.

    >
    > Corporate/Govt.
    >
    > > 4. Going to User Groups and talking to people there.

    > Mostly Corporate/Govt.
    >
    > You can see why this version of VB is so focused on enterprise

    development.
    > If you actually break down the sales numbers for VB how many copies do you
    > sell to corporate vs. individuals/small business ? When counting I mean

    VB
    > not Studio.
    >
    > The things that the "high end" of town want to do can be done by any

    number
    > of development applications. They can hire in the talent required, the

    small
    > end of town has to use their own resources. Unfortunatly the number of
    > products that deliver for the small end of town is disappearing rapidly.
    >
    > Somewhere along the way M$ either forgot or decided to ignore what made VB
    > such a popular product. It will now be interesting to see how much they
    > suffer for it.
    >
    > > I'm also looking for various survey information that I know exists here
    > > somewhere (remember, I've been here 7 or so days so far). If I need to,

    > I'll
    > > go further.
    > >
    > > But, I won't do all of it today. Or tomorrow. Though I have managed to

    get
    > > to a Seattle-based UG this week.
    > >
    > > btw, If we posit (as you did in a prior message) that there are 3

    million
    > VB
    > > users out there, for me to talk to the majority is impossible. Will

    there
    > be
    > > a survey done? They're done all the time. FWIW, in the past 10 years, I

    > was
    > > called twice. Just lucky I guess.

    >
    > Or you live in the same counrty as the developers. :-)
    >
    > > Right now, I'm in planning/learning mode.
    > >
    > > yag
    > >
    > > "Ray Collins" <Ray.CollinsNoSpam@Bigpond.com> wrote in message
    > > news:3c4f5979@10.1.10.29...
    > > > Since you didn't bother with a response to my post in the other thread

    I
    > > > will post it (in part) again here.
    > > >
    > > > Here is a thought for you, stop giving so much weight to the opinions

    of
    > > the
    > > > minority of VB programmers that hang out in newsgroups like this and

    ask
    > > the
    > > > majority of registered users what they think about VB and what they

    use
    > it
    > > > for.
    > > >
    > > > I have been a registered user of VB since version 1 and never has

    > > Microsoft
    > > > communicated with me except to tell me there was a new version and how

    > > much
    > > > it would cost to keep up. In this day and age how much could it cost

    for
    > > M$
    > > > to survey their registered users ? And having asked them maybe listen

    as
    > > > well.
    > > >
    > > > I think it is a safe bet that what the majority of past/current VB
    > > > programmers want is not the same as what the "high end"
    > > > VB programmers that you love to talk to want.
    > > >
    > > > What are you going to do about talking to and listening to the

    majority
    > of
    > > > VB users ?
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >




  13. #43
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?


    "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote in message
    news:3c50893e@10.1.10.29...
    > "Zane Thomas" <zane@mabry.com> wrote in message
    > news:3cc58a57.229091328@news.devx.com...
    > > On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:01:25 -0000, "Kunle Odutola"
    > > <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
    > >
    > > >A group of disaffected but capable MVPs can very easily build a

    VB6.NET.
    > > >John Gough's book will help loads in that respect.

    > >
    > > And, according to them, there would be one helluva market for it.

    >
    > Actually, I'd only consider that an accurate statement if it were made in

    more
    > relative, less sweeping, terms.
    >


    Seriously, do you know if the details of all the various file formats used
    in VB6 publicly available?

    Kunle



  14. #44
    Yair Alan Griver [MSFT] Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?

    OK. Now we're getting somewhere. You had some good ideas in there and I'll
    be looking at doing them in my copious free time <g - sorry, lots of
    meetings today>

    The survey had nothing to do with MVPs, by the way - other developers I know
    have been called also.

    So, in your opinion - if the next version had a lot of ease-of-use features
    that made the product more explorable and forgiving, would that do it for
    you? Note that is different from Dan's issue of language stability.

    IOW, if you feel that it's as easy to create an app in VB.NET as it is for
    you today (with added forgiveness for some new language constructs that you
    may want/have to learn), would that be a home run for you?

    yag

    "W.E.(Bill) Goodrich, PhD" <bgoodric@netzero.net> wrote in message
    news:3C4FC1E3.FC997AA0@netzero.net...
    > In article <3c4f72f1$1@10.1.10.29>,
    > "Yair Alan Griver [MSFT]" <yag@microsoft.com> writes:
    >
    > > Well, I can't tell you what's been done so far, but I'm planning on
    > > doing the following:
    > >
    > > 1. Hanging out in newsgroups and the web.
    > > 2. Going to conferences and talking to people.
    > > 3. Going to customers and talking to them.

    >
    > WHICH customers? That is the key question. How are you going to get
    > beyond the "Corporate/Government" and hobbyist groups - or are you?
    >
    > > 4. Going to User Groups and talking to people there.

    >
    > As others here have pointed out, the measures you describe here are
    > mostly going to yield a heavily weighted sample, rather than one which
    > represents the broader user base. Specifically, they seem very likely
    > to miss the very large population of "non programmers" - people for
    > whom programming is not an end unto itself, but is an occasionally
    > used background activity (much like writing or arithmetic) used in
    > service of their "real" jobs and/or interests. These are the people
    > who were sold VB as a user friendly package allowing beginners (the
    > "B" in BASIC) to quickly and easily produce functioning Windows
    > programs. They are not developers. They are not even hobbyists.
    >
    > These are the people for whom the answer to your earlier "Is there a
    > lot to learn? Yes. I it worth it?" is a resounding No! They are the
    > ones who spent a few minutes with a book or tutorial getting far
    > enough along to launch a "Hello World" app, and then a couple of hours
    > over the next few days learning just enough to be able to point and
    > click the UI and cobble together some simple calculations in the
    > relevant IDE-generated functions. While their code is not likely to be
    > as elegant as that of a trained, professional programmer, it does what
    > they want, how and when they want. It solves incidental problems,
    > rather than creating commercial products or the like.
    >
    > They are also the people for whom VB.NET represents a large step
    > backwards.
    >
    > > I'm also looking for various survey information that I know exists
    > > here somewhere (remember, I've been here 7 or so days so far). If I
    > > need to, I'll go further.

    >
    > While you are doing so, find and go through the self-descriptions in
    > the registrations of people who bought VB (rather than getting it as
    > a part of VS).
    >
    > > But, I won't do all of it today. Or tomorrow. Though I have managed
    > > to get to a Seattle-based UG this week.

    >
    > Like the people in NGs and Conferences, members of UGs are almost
    > exclusively those for whom programming is an end unto itself (as a
    > hobby, profession, or aspiration).
    >
    > > btw, If we posit (as you did in a prior message) that there are 3
    > > million VB users out there, for me to talk to the majority is
    > > impossible.

    >
    > But to talk to statistically representative samples thereof is not.
    >
    > > Will there be a survey done? They're done all the time. FWIW, in the
    > > past 10 years, I was called twice. Just lucky I guess.

    >
    > Do you suppose that had anything to do with your MVP status and what
    > went into it?
    >
    > > Right now, I'm in planning/learning mode.

    >
    > Then perhaps you can learn from the errors of your predecessors. They
    > heavily weighted their information-gathering toward relatively narrow
    > segments of the VB user base, and ended up favoring design features
    > which encourage those narrow groups but discourage the wider VB
    > community.
    >
    > In a recent thread, I described a project for which VB.NET was not
    > appropriate (but VB6 was). While the individual details varied, the
    > unanimous reply from the pro-.NET people here (who responded) was
    > "change the project to suit the tool". Some parts of the potential
    > customer base for VB.NET may be willing to change their projects to
    > suit the tool, but many more are going to be re-evaluating whether the
    > tool (VB and/or .NET) is worth the trouble. And the loss of "beginner
    > friendliness" is going to be a factor, as is the loss of language
    > stability (as Dan Barclay has described at length). As will the history
    > and perceptions of security problems, OS instability and errors, and
    > vendor instability (and lack of trustworthiness).
    >
    > --
    >
    > W.E. (Bill) Goodrich, PhD
    >
    > *-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*
    > * CHANGE YOUR SEXUALITY * http://www.nyx.net/~bgoodric/ctg.html *
    > * * *
    > * Without Aversive * ctgcentral@earthlink.net *
    > * Behavior Modification * Creative Technology Group *
    > * or Drugs * PO Box 286 *
    > * * Englewood, CO 80151-0286 *
    > *-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*




  15. #45
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: Are Customers Microsoft's Number 1 Priority?

    On 24 Jan 2002 14:28:49 -0800, "Rob Teixeira" <RobTeixeira@@msn.com>
    wrote:

    >Yeah, just don't put the letters V and B on it, and you might just a product
    >that won't land you in jail.


    How about TOAOTBF.NET (The One And Only True Basic For .Net)?


    --
    When freedom is outlawed
    only outlaws will be free.

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