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Thread: .NET equals Efficiency

  1. #136
    Larry Serflaten Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency


    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote
    >
    > I think you are unfairly attacking the messenger


    Can you name any group of people that enjoy incessant nagging?
    If you can, why don't you all go there, and stop posting your
    faultfinding here.

    There is a huge difference between bringing a message, and constantly
    flaunting pessimistic opinions, and in this case, irrelavent sexually explicit
    advertisements.. Perhaps you can't see it, they have long stopped opposing
    the messages that have merit, and are now being offended by the messengers
    who are adding nothing but FUD.

    LFS






  2. #137
    Robert Lantry Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency

    --
    Robert
    ---
    The more important your cheese is to you the more you want to hold on to it.
    http://www.whomovedmycheese.com

    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:3c7fb2f3.4426445@news.devx.com...
    > On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:37:24 -0700, "Kathleen Dollard"
    > <kathleen@mvps.org> wrote:
    >
    > >I agree, it is annoying that you continue to waste bandwidth on an
    > >advertisement in your sig that is irrelevant to all and offensive to

    some.
    > >That you insist on a focus on your irrelevant endeavours says a great

    deal
    > >aobut you.

    >
    > I think you are unfairly attacking the messenger because his message
    > doesn't accord with the .Net evangelism which is rife in this ng.
    >This
    > seems to be a pronounced symptom of .Net zealotry, which no one can
    > fail to notice. It's almost as if you're all afraid of criticism!
    >
    > MM


    Bah. How about this instead: We're annoyed by wallys like you and Bill
    using this forum on .NET discussions as your personal platform to :

    a) Attack .NET, when neither of you use it or even understand it.
    b) Attack Microsoft and their products because you disagree with their
    company policies.
    c) Post massively inaccurate garbage and FUD and play semantic games to
    further your a) and b) goals.
    d) Whine about "zealotry" when you're caught being hypocrites.

    I'll point out again, in case you think we forgot, your spew is the same
    spew from 6 years ago and you still haven't learned anything. You think
    Delphi is hot stuff, but you've obviously never used it, since it's called
    "object pascal" for a reason. You think Kylix is cool, but you don't know
    what it is. To sum, there is NOTHING you have to contribute to the
    discussion of .NET. Install it some day and figure out how to use it and
    then come back and tell us what's wrong with it. Until then you don't even
    rank as a .NOTer. You're just a cretin with an axe to grind.



  3. #138
    Randy Jackson Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency


    "Robert Lantry" <mirth@mirthy.com> wrote in message
    news:3c7fb6f5$1@10.1.10.29...

    > The more important your cheese is to you the more you want to hold on to

    it.
    > http://www.whomovedmycheese.com


    Mike's cheese is getting moldy.

    --
    RJ




  4. #139
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency

    On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:14:14 -0600, "Jacob Grass"
    <JGrass@AbilitiSolutions.com> wrote:

    >Wow, Mike, you are so right. . . Dr. Bill is the VB Messiah. I'd probably
    >be kissing his *** too if both your heads weren't in the way. . .


    Thanks for that, Jacob! You make my case for me. Brilliantly argued.
    Ta, muchly.

    MM

  5. #140
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency

    On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:25:34 -0600, "Larry Serflaten"
    <serflaten@usinternet.com> wrote:

    >Can you name any group of people that enjoy incessant nagging?
    >If you can, why don't you all go there, and stop posting your
    >faultfinding here.


    And here's another, overtaking Jacob on the inside lane...

    Faultfinding, criticism -- it's all too much for precious .Net
    aficionados to tolerate, is it? What would you do without us? You
    wouldn't *have* any critics at all, and then where would you be? So
    much bending over, so little time...

    MM

  6. #141
    Jacob Grass Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency

    > Thanks for that, Jacob! You make my case for me. Brilliantly argued.
    > Ta, muchly.


    Glad me knee-jerk reaction was helpful <g>


    --
    Jacob Grass





  7. #142
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency

    On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:26:32 -0800, "Robert Lantry" <mirth@mirthy.com>
    wrote:

    >Bah. How about this instead: We're annoyed by wallys like you and Bill
    >using this forum on .NET discussions as your personal platform to :
    >
    >a) Attack .NET, when neither of you use it or even understand it.


    Well, it's specifically VB.Net I'm (not) interested in, as it directly
    affects me as a classic VB programmer. The fact that .Net likes to
    come along for the ride as a host for the mandatory framework in which
    to run VB.Net "apps" kind of just adds to the cauldron.

    >b) Attack Microsoft and their products because you disagree with their
    >company policies.


    What? Disagreement is not allowed here? It's a vb.dotnet.discussion
    group, talking about VB.Net as the product which has killed off real
    Visual Basic and you don't expect criticism? You just want us all to
    roll over and accept everything without a peep? By some of us
    continually harping on here and elsewhere about the massive betrayal
    that has been committed upon three million and more totally innocent
    and ten-years-loyal 70% non-class-writing classic VB programmers, you,
    hopefully, will pass on the message to anyone in the MS camp to the
    effect that "the injuns are revolting, cap'n". This is how things get
    changed. Maybe not this time, but you can be as sure as **** is hot
    that they will think a little bit longer the next time they come up
    with a similar hairbrained scheme which screws over some of their best
    customers. May even be YOU in a few years' time! Think about that.
    Think about how much whining versus rolling over, you're going to be
    prepared to do if and when the time comes.

    >c) Post massively inaccurate garbage and FUD and play semantic games to
    >further your a) and b) goals.


    I don't know what you mean with "semantic games". The semantics of
    this escape me, sorry.

    >d) Whine about "zealotry" when you're caught being hypocrites.


    Hypocrites how so?

    >I'll point out again, in case you think we forgot, your spew is the same
    >spew from 6 years ago and you still haven't learned anything. You think
    >Delphi is hot stuff, but you've obviously never used it, since it's called
    >"object pascal" for a reason.


    Yes, I have.

    > You think Kylix is cool, but you don't know
    >what it is.


    Yes, I do. I have the Desktop Developer edition sitting on a hard disk
    in the next room.

    > To sum, there is NOTHING you have to contribute to the
    >discussion of .NET. Install it some day and figure out how to use it and
    >then come back and tell us what's wrong with it. Until then you don't even
    >rank as a .NOTer. You're just a cretin with an axe to grind.


    I think giving an axe to a cretin is like abusing the disabled.

    MM

  8. #143
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency

    On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:27:32 -0800, "Randy Jackson"
    <RJacksonAPC@Yahoo.com> wrote:

    >Mike's cheese is getting moldy.


    Not the kind I like which comes in tubes flavoured with shrimp.

    MM

  9. #144
    Jacob Grass Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency

    > Glad me knee-jerk reaction was helpful <g>
    > ^^^


    Ahem. . . my . . .



  10. #145
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency

    On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:17:31 -0600, "Jacob Grass"
    <JGrass@AbilitiSolutions.com> wrote:

    >> Glad me knee-jerk reaction was helpful <g>
    >> ^^^

    >
    >Ahem. . . my . . .


    No, no, young sir! You now qualify as an honorary Cockney!

    MM

  11. #146
    Phil Weber Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency

    > ...but you can be as sure as **** is hot...

    Mike: Actually, it isn't, but that's definitely a subject for the off.ramp.
    ;-)

    > Think about how much whining versus rolling over, you're
    > going to be prepared to do if and when the time comes.


    There will be no whining from me, under any circumstances.

    Imagine, for example, that Microsoft announced its intention to completely
    discontinue Visual Basic, once and for all. I would certainly be
    disappointed -- I've been a VB programmer for almost 10 years, and an MS
    BASIC programmer for nearly 25; BASIC was the first programming language I
    learned, and remains the one with which I feel most comfortable -- but I
    wouldn't whine about it. I would express my disappointment -- by e-mail and,
    if possible, postal mail and telephone -- directly to those in a position to
    change the situation. If it became clear that the decision was final, then I
    would try to determine how to make the best of the situation, and move on.

    That, in my opinion, is how adults deal with disappointment: they don't
    throw tantrums hoping to annoy others into giving them their way; rather,
    they try to make the best of the hand life has dealt them.
    ---
    Phil Weber



  12. #147
    GregD. Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency


    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:3c7fe959.18354083@news.devx.com...
    > On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:25:34 -0600, "Larry Serflaten"
    > <serflaten@usinternet.com> wrote:
    >

    <snip drivel>
    > MM



    *plonk*



  13. #148
    W.E.(Bill) Goodrich, PhD Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency

    In article <3c7ff795$1@10.1.10.29>,
    "Phil Weber" <pweber@nospam.fawcette.com> writes:

    [...]

    > Imagine, for example, that Microsoft announced its intention to
    > completely discontinue Visual Basic, once and for all.


    [...]

    > I would express my disappointment -- by e-mail and, if possible,
    > postal mail and telephone -- directly to those in a position to
    > change the situation. If it became clear that the decision was
    > final, then I would try to determine how to make the best of the
    > situation, and move on.


    > That, in my opinion, is how adults deal with disappointment: they
    > don't throw tantrums hoping to annoy others into giving them their
    > way; rather, they try to make the best of the hand life has dealt
    > them.


    No, that is the way "well behaved" children deal with adverse
    decisions. Adults are aware that such decisions - *especially*
    business decisions - are subject to reevaluation and revision. That
    "because I/we said so" is not a final answer, and that the reasons
    given for such decisions may not be - often aren't - the real reasons
    for the decisions. And that a variety of targeted pressures (public
    and private) are often effective in "encouraging" revision of such
    decisions.

    Such actions are most effective when targeted at the "real" reason(s)
    for the decisions. But such reasons are not always obvious, and even
    when they are fairly clear some people have difficulty accepting
    them. Therefore, people targeting the underlying reasons are often
    viewed as "off target" by those who bought into the superficial given
    "reasons". OTOH, even "off target" public dissent can cause major
    customers of the target company to reconsider their relationship with
    that company. Especially when the dissent targets important issues of
    those customers. Therefore, the most effective way to bring pressure
    on the decision makers is often a variety of people taking a variety
    of targeted actions. One part of that is making such dissent public
    (to the relevant portions of the public) - something you characterize
    as "whining". Another part is reiterating certain of the "downsides"
    of the decision in places and ways which are likely to come to the
    attention of "customer" decision makers - another thing you choose to
    call "whining". Another is to focus attention on elements which are
    detrimental to the strategy behind the decision (such as security
    problems with a product bidding for dominance of a market segment
    which deals with confidential information). Each of these steps may
    seem individually ineffective. But cumulatively, when taken with other
    steps not mentioned here, they can exert considerable pressure on
    the decision makers in question.

    Interestingly, one thing which often enhances the effectiveness of
    such dissent is the response of the supporters of the decision. If the
    supporters are seen as thoughtless and/or immature in that support -
    responding emotionally, with "don't discuss this any more " demands,
    name calling, rhetorical tricks, etc. - then "customer" decision
    makers are more likely to take a hard look at any earlier tendency to
    favor the position of those supporters.

    Adults know all this (despite what many try to teach their children),
    and use that knowledge to take effective action concerning decisions
    we consider inappropriate. But feel free to continue acting like a
    good child instead, if it pleases you to do so.

    --

    W.E. (Bill) Goodrich, PhD

    *-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*
    * CHANGE YOUR SEXUALITY * http://www.nyx.net/~bgoodric/ctg.html *
    * * *
    * Without Aversive * ctgcentral@earthlink.net *
    * Behavior Modification * Creative Technology Group *
    * or Drugs * PO Box 286 *
    * * Englewood, CO 80151-0286 *
    *-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*

  14. #149
    Robert Lantry Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency

    "W.E.(Bill) Goodrich, PhD" <bgoodric@netzero.net> wrote in message
    news:3C83A8C7.43CC1C4@netzero.net...
    > In article <3c7ff795$1@10.1.10.29>,
    > "Phil Weber" <pweber@nospam.fawcette.com> writes:

    <snip>
    > Such actions are most effective when targeted at the "real" reason(s)
    > for the decisions. But such reasons are not always obvious, and even
    > when they are fairly clear some people have difficulty accepting
    > them. Therefore, people targeting the underlying reasons are often
    > viewed as "off target" by those who bought into the superficial given
    > "reasons".


    Amusing. You honestly think that Microsoft (let alone any rational client
    in the universe) would consider your opinions credible about a new
    development tool? Being that you consider OOP to be overly complex overhead
    and you dont use it? Being that your experience is at least 10 years out of
    date? Being that you don't use the product?



    >OTOH, even "off target" public dissent can cause major
    > customers of the target company to reconsider their relationship with
    > that company.


    This falls under the "If you want to talk yourself out of a job, go right
    ahead..." category. Your ego is a thing to behold.

    >Especially when the dissent targets important issues of
    > those customers.


    Which you can't directly address, since your experience is 10 years old and
    you don't have any idea of what problems the tool actually can solve for the
    client.

    >Another part is reiterating certain of the "downsides"
    > of the decision in places and ways which are likely to come to the
    > attention of "customer" decision makers - another thing you choose to
    > call "whining".


    Actually, it isn't whining, it's fear, plain and simple.

    >Another is to focus attention on elements which are
    > detrimental to the strategy behind the decision (such as security
    > problems with a product bidding for dominance of a market segment
    > which deals with confidential information).


    More amusement, since apps in .NET are about a bazillion times more secure
    than VB6 alone ever was. This is called FUD. Using FUD to scare your
    clients into thinking there's a problem when the fact is you're the one
    experiencing fear, uncertainty and doubt. Classic projection, eh?

    >Each of these steps may
    > seem individually ineffective. But cumulatively, when taken with other
    > steps not mentioned here, they can exert considerable pressure on
    > the decision makers in question.
    >

    No, not really. If a credible source comes forward and says "The reason why
    foo is a bad idea..." the decision maker in question can address it. But
    "pressure" only comes inside of Microsoft in the form of the marketing
    department. Marketing gathers up all the problems they're having selling
    the product in question and then approaches the development team and
    pressures them into making changes to make the product an easier sell. Or,
    they get answers directly to the problems people are addressing: "People are
    saying security is an issue. How do we address this?" or it might be a more
    blunt proposal like: "People are saying security is an issue. Fix it!"

    > Interestingly, one thing which often enhances the effectiveness of
    > such dissent is the response of the supporters of the decision. If the
    > supporters are seen as thoughtless and/or immature in that support -
    > responding emotionally, with "don't discuss this any more " demands,
    > name calling, rhetorical tricks, etc. - then "customer" decision
    > makers are more likely to take a hard look at any earlier tendency to
    > favor the position of those supporters.
    >

    Never met a MS evangelist, have you? They're five times scarier then
    anything you've seen here and only 1/10th as knowledgable (okay, that was
    editorializing, sorry).

    > Adults know all this (despite what many try to teach their children),
    > and use that knowledge to take effective action concerning decisions
    > we consider inappropriate. But feel free to continue acting like a
    > good child instead, if it pleases you to do so.


    Again, your ego is such a wonderful thing to watch. Your condescenion,
    arrogance...total lack of any knowledge of the universe outside
    yourself...all wrapped into an incompetent package. Lovely.
    The plus side is that in about 5 years time, you'll also be unemployed as a
    developer and you and the rest of your willfully incompetent crowd will
    slowly be degrading into petrol in a tar-pit somewhere.

    Wow! That was fun.


    > --
    >
    > W.E. (Bill) Goodrich, PhD
    >
    > *-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*
    > * CHANGE YOUR SEXUALITY * http://www.nyx.net/~bgoodric/ctg.html *


    I'd like to be a bi-sexual fetishist with a penchant for guava jelly who
    gets turned on by high-heels and canoli. If you could throw in an
    attraction to livestock then I wouldn't have to be so picky on the weekends.
    -Thanks!

    Robert
    ---
    The more important your cheese is to you the more you want to hold on to it.
    http://www.whomovedmycheese.com




  15. #150
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: .NET equals Efficiency

    On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:00:54 -0800, "Robert Lantry" <mirth@mirthy.com>
    wrote:

    >The plus side is that in about 5 years time, you'll also be unemployed as a
    >developer and you and the rest of your willfully incompetent crowd will
    >slowly be degrading into petrol in a tar-pit somewhere.


    This response exemplifies the ill-judged name-calling that
    disinterested customers would take as a sign of weakness, thinking
    "Why hasn't he got any reasoned argument?" . Once you start using
    these kinds of personal abuses, Robert, you have lost the argument,
    plain and simple.

    MM

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