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Thread: .NOT vs .NET

  1. #31
    Robert Lantry Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET

    I have to disagree with Kunle's position about engines. The automotive
    industry has been screaming bloody murder about hybrids and electric
    alternatives for a couple of decades now. It's only by regulation that
    we're seeing new powerplants showing up in cars at all.

    I also have to say I think the automobile industry is a terrible industry to
    draw an analogy for the software industry against. I mean, they have to be
    beaten bloody in court before they even consider adding a safety feature
    like passenger side air-bags. They're glacial, unresponsive and singularly
    feed on the need of American drivers to establish status. I do hope the
    software industry isn't in that bad of shape.

    And I do feel reasonably certain that if Microsoft could make a profit on
    passenger side air-bags for Windows XP, they'd have 'em in the box. They
    might be proprietary, prone to failure, cause excessive embarrassment in
    cube farms and generally be annoying, but they'd be there.

    In fact...
    <PWOOOOMP!>
    Aaaiii!!!

    --
    Robert
    mirth@mirthy.com
    Are you a VB programmer who hates .NET?
    Get a fresh start here!
    http://www.yourfuturestartshere.com/


    "Tom Bennet" <fsdfsd@fdsfds.com> wrote in message
    news:3c9c19c7$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > Well I can see there is no point in discussing this matter with you.

    You're
    > always right. The automobile annaolgy was to try to make you understand
    > the expesnse involved in moving to a new platform. The cost involved in
    > just dropping the internal combustion engine is quite high. The same can
    > be said for rebuilding a brand new software product on a new platform.

    That
    > is what .Net is, is a new platform similar to a new brand of CPU. Just

    like
    > Java is platform in and of it's self.
    >
    > But you say they would just jump to a new engine if it was better. Since
    > I have never seen you conceede on anyone elses point, you must be right

    and
    > I must be wrong.
    >
    > Again my point is simple. People should and will complain about the

    compatibility
    > issue. I'm not going to stand and beat the drum forever, but don't be

    surprised
    > when the next person comes along and sounds off louder and longer than I.
    > Neither of us can wish it away, which is what we would both like to do.
    >
    >
    > later,
    >
    > Tom
    >
    > "Kunle Odutola" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
    > >
    > >"Tom Bennet" <fdsfds@fjdslk.com> wrote in message
    > >news:3c9b9250$1@10.1.10.29...
    > >
    > >> No parts in VB eh? What about ActiveX controls and com libraries?

    > >
    > >The parts for the engine in your analogy were for repairs I presume. Else
    > >why would you need them. There is no equivalent in software. Programs

    don't
    > >have wear and tear [usually]. ActiveX controls et al are add-ons. They

    offer
    > >additional functionality. Like a new sunroof or chrome blowers.
    > >

    >




  2. #32
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET

    On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 04:17:43 GMT, zane@mabry.com (Zane Thomas) wrote:

    >On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:33:29 -0500, Michael Carton <MikeC@optonline.net>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>And component vendors. Another upgrade cycle, another chance to sell more
    >>licenses.

    >
    >Bah! As a component vendor I can tell you that we would much prefer to
    >continue selling our existing components and write new ones, instead of
    >rewriting ftp for the third time - for instance.


    Eh? What?!!! Hold the front page, Mr Murdoch, there's late-breaking
    news just in! So you don't like rewriting, eh? Yeah, it's painful,
    isn't it? And sooooo unproductive!

    MM

  3. #33
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET

    On 22 Mar 2002 21:22:31 -0800, "Patrick Troughton"
    <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:

    >Then perhaps you should open your eyes and look around you....


    I just did. Well, my eyes were already open, but I 'spose you meant
    that metaphorically. Anyway, all I can see is a couple of cats in the
    garden, neither of them mine, and there's a very good reason for that
    - I don't have a cat. So because they're strays, as soon as I approach
    them to pose The Question about how they like .Net or not (or even
    .Not), they just run away. I know this, because I have approached them
    before, the question forming on my lips, why do you keep crapping on
    my lawn. And they just run away. Perhaps it would be the same with
    most developers. You approach them with the question ready, but before
    you can get it out, they've run off. Ah, I know! The U.S. government
    could include the question on its next census form "Do you support
    .Net?" That would then be unequivocal, wouldn't it?

    Anyone know when the next census is?

    MM

  4. #34
    Mike Mitchell Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET

    On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:27:50 -0500, "Vinny" <vad@stgroup.net> wrote:

    >> Think how many public bodies, charitable organisations, and
    >> other outfits that have to work on a limited budget are being
    >> continually ripped off by the excessive rises in licensing charges.

    >
    >Its not Microsoft's fault that their software is supperior to others.


    Eh? Excuse me? Who was it recently who introduced a freeze on
    development while they go through all their software with a fine
    toothcomb to improve security and stability? None other than Bill
    Gates Himself! Did you not read about the sheer bother and hassle I
    had to download just a very small portion of the SDK? How many times
    have you done a simple thing in Windows, something you've always done,
    but this time it's brought Windows to its knees? Oh, we all know how
    "superior" it is! How come every time I refresh Windows Explorer, it
    always starts at the top again? A simple little bit of design,
    remembering where I was, scrolled down the listview. What about the
    utterly stupid Start menu hierarchy which forces me to first go up the
    list to Programs, then across to open another menu, then up to
    Accessories, across once more, and then finally down to Notepad? This
    isn't designed; it's more like a child's painting. You can just about
    recognise Mom, but after that you just say "Very nice, dear!" and
    start planning the next pregnancy.

    > It
    >does not make sense that "many public bodies, charitable organisations, and
    >other outfits that have to work on a limited budget" have for all this time
    >been using more expensive inferior software and platforms.


    They've largely been using Microsoft software. They've grown into
    using it over the years. Initially, it was fairly small and easy to
    manage, in the days of Windows for Workgroups, say. But the Windows
    platform has grown and grown beguilingly, and they haven't got any
    other choice but to go along with it and keep buying the upgrades. Now
    they are faced with yet another choice, whether to move to .Net. Don't
    forget that they will pretty soon have to deal with 64-bit Windows! I
    expect Microsoft Research is already planning 128-bit Windows! They do
    it because they can!

    > MS is where they
    >are because no one does what they do. In away it is unfortunate that allot
    >of companies that have good software get bought out by MS, but they got the
    >money to do it, i know it sucks, but thats capitalism for you.


    Capitalism doesn't come with a get-out-of-jail card for when you
    violate the Sherman Act. Look at Enron to see to what excesses
    capitalism will go to make a (fast) buck. Look at the fallout for
    Andersen. Capitalism isn't all it's cracked up to be. It leads to
    great disparities in societies, which then breed discontent and
    unrest.

    >> It's little wonder that more and more of them are looking for cheaper
    >> alternatives than the Microsoft pay-as-you-yearn model.

    >
    >i am all for cheap alternatives, but i do believe you get what you pay for.
    >show me a cheaper alternative to donet that is just as powerful and i will
    >gladly be the first person to jump ship.


    Watch this space!

    MM

  5. #35
    Steve Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET


    "Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote in message
    news:3c9bbfdc$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > No, no headcount per se. That's based on things I've read and my

    experience
    > within the VB community over the last two years since .NET was first

    announced.
    >
    >
    > /Pat


    And that's just the opposite of the "things I've read and my experience
    within the VB community over the last two years since .NET was first
    announced."

    It is all subjective at this point; just as stupity is subjective.

    Label jars, not people.

    Steve
    "f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgmmng." -Anon.



  6. #36
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET


    "Robert Lantry" <Mirth@mirthy.com> wrote in message
    news:3c9c2b60$1@10.1.10.29...
    > I have to disagree with Kunle's position about engines. The automotive
    > industry has been screaming bloody murder about hybrids and electric
    > alternatives for a couple of decades now. It's only by regulation that
    > we're seeing new powerplants showing up in cars at all.


    They have been screaming blue murder because all those alternatives involve
    significant compromises that means they will have to support them in
    *addition* to their current lines (e.g. long charge times/low
    power/increased weigth/limited range for electric vehicles). If we all
    suddenly became _seriously_ concerned about the environment, electric
    engines will prevail no matter. I said they will drop their current
    technology if something *better* came along. None of these technologies
    offer improvements over what is available today in a manner comparative to
    VB->.NET. Not is _generally_ better. All are better in very focussed niche
    areas like noise level and environmental cleanliness (if you ignore the
    nuclear power plants) for electric engines.

    That auto companies didin't wan't to change is not evidence that they
    wouldn't change. Just evidence that they didn't want to change to the
    alternatives on offer. I can understand oil companies having a vested
    interest but not auto manufacturers.....

    > I also have to say I think the automobile industry is a terrible industry

    to
    > draw an analogy for the software industry against. I mean, they have to

    be
    > beaten bloody in court before they even consider adding a safety feature
    > like passenger side air-bags. They're glacial, unresponsive and

    singularly
    > feed on the need of American drivers to establish status. I do hope the
    > software industry isn't in that bad of shape.


    We are fast getting there. Government mandated standards and government
    regulation often has that effect. Windows Lite anyone?

    Kunle



  7. #37
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET


    "Tom Bennet" <fsdfsd@fdsfds.com> wrote in message
    news:3c9c19c7$1@10.1.10.29...

    > Well I can see there is no point in discussing this matter with you.

    You're
    > always right.


    Thanks for playing.

    > The automobile annaolgy was to try to make you understand
    > the expesnse involved in moving to a new platform.


    I do understand. My reply is to let you know that there are [at least] two
    sides to every coin, argument, discussion, viewpoint......

    > The cost involved in
    > just dropping the internal combustion engine is quite high.


    As was the cost in dropping wood from aircraft shell construction. If the
    long-term rewards are judged to outweigh the costs, the transition will
    happen. That decision is different for each individual/organization.

    > The same can
    > be said for rebuilding a brand new software product on a new platform.

    That
    > is what .Net is, is a new platform similar to a new brand of CPU. Just

    like
    > Java is platform in and of it's self.


    Well given the costs invloved in conversion, it is no wonder that Java has
    failed so spectacularly. Oh, no wait.....it didn't fail......

    > But you say they would just jump to a new engine if it was better. Since
    > I have never seen you conceede on anyone elses point, you must be right

    and
    > I must be wrong.


    You can stop playing now.

    > Again my point is simple. People should and will complain about the

    compatibility
    > issue.


    As have I. You might remeber that I favoured an Option VB6Compatibility if
    you've been around long enough. I don't actually care about that anymore. My
    VB6 assets are secure for at least another 6 years. Enough time to do
    whatever I like with them. I could write AlmostVB6.NET in a fraction of that
    time..... ;-)

    > I'm not going to stand and beat the drum forever, but don't be surprised
    > when the next person comes along and sounds off louder and longer than I.
    > Neither of us can wish it away, which is what we would both like to do.


    No. I don't want to wish it away (if by "it" you mean either .NET itself or
    this discussion about VB6 compatibility).

    Take care

    Kunle



  8. #38
    Zane Thomas Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET

    On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:53:06 GMT, kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Mitchell)
    wrote:

    >So you don't like rewriting, eh? Yeah, it's painful,
    >isn't it? And sooooo unproductive!


    Mike, you're a tiresome twit. I've said many times that there have been
    advantages to the new component architectures. The post I was answering
    tried to misrepresent the motives of authors and component vendors.

    Really - rent a clue, you're drivel here is far less clever than you think
    it is.


    --
    Turn on, tune in, download.
    zane@mvps.org

  9. #39
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET


    Wrong again.

    /Pat

    "Tom Bennet" <fdsfds@fdsfs.com> wrote:
    >
    >I will avoid personal attacks, since I believe they are driven by fear.
    >
    >
    >"Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>Every so often, somebody says something so amazingly stupid, it boggles

    >the
    >>mind. Unfortunately, this snippet from Tom is one of those statements.

    I,
    >>for one, am not an author, publisher or trainer. I know this may be hard
    >>for you to believe, Tom, but the fact is that the majority of VB developers
    >>support .NET.
    >>
    >>/Pat

    >



  10. #40
    Patrick Troughton Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET


    You probably just don't get around much. The support for .NET is overwhelming.
    Go to Amazon.com, the number one selling programming tool is VS.NET. Go to
    Wrox press, 3 out of the top 4 selling books are .NET. Go to VBWire.com,
    64 percent of VB programmers say they have already or plan on upgrading to
    .NET. The VS.NET launch event had the largest attendance ever for a programming
    event in Microsoft's entire history. The DevDays conference was jam-packed
    with VB developers. Have you gone to any of Microsoft's .NET workshops? If
    you did, you'll see they're also jam packed with VB developers. Do you honestly
    expect us to believe that all these people are trainers, publishers and authors?


    In terms of personal experience, I have friends and family in the industry,
    not one is a NOTter. In fact, I have three friends attending a C# class right
    now as I type this. Of my company's IT staff, the only complaint we hear
    is from the VB6 developers stuck doing VB6 because they want to be on the
    projects using VB.NET. Again, I can personally verify that none of these
    people are trainers, publishers and authors.

    Just this week, I went out of town out for a business trip. We asked their
    IT staff about the local night life. They recommended some bars and restaurants
    to go to. Unfortunately, they couldn't go with. Why? Because they were taking
    a VB.NET class at their local community college. Again, none of these people
    are trainers, publishers or authors.

    I'll even go so far as to say that I have *never* met a single person who
    was anti-.NET. Not one. Even in this newsgroup, which is one of the most
    militant anti-.NET newsgroups there is, there are still only a hand full
    of people complaining.

    /Pat

    "Steve" <steve@spam.me.not.ruraltechnologies.net> wrote:

    >And that's just the opposite of the "things I've read and my experience
    >within the VB community over the last two years since .NET was first
    >announced."
    >
    >It is all subjective at this point; just as stupity is subjective.
    >
    >Label jars, not people.
    >
    >Steve
    >"f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgmmng." -Anon.
    >
    >



  11. #41
    Robert Lantry Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET

    "Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:3c9c616c.3758590@news.devx.com...
    > On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:27:50 -0500, "Vinny" <vad@stgroup.net> wrote:
    >
    > >> Think how many public bodies, charitable organisations, and
    > >> other outfits that have to work on a limited budget are being
    > >> continually ripped off by the excessive rises in licensing charges.

    > >
    > >Its not Microsoft's fault that their software is supperior to others.

    >
    > Eh? Excuse me? Who was it recently who introduced a freeze on
    > development while they go through all their software with a fine
    > toothcomb to improve security and stability? None other than Bill
    > Gates Himself! Did you not read about the sheer bother and hassle I
    > had to download just a very small portion of the SDK? How many times
    > have you done a simple thing in Windows, something you've always done,
    > but this time it's brought Windows to its knees? Oh, we all know how
    > "superior" it is! ...


    Compared to...? Tell me, oh mighty sage of the computing industry, what
    experiences are you comparing it to?

    If you hate it, then why the heck to you use it and then sit and ***** and
    moan to us about how much you hate it?! Oh, you're just in it for the
    abuse. I wish to god you'd go buy a Mac or something at leave us alone.

    <snip more non-sensical ramblings...>

    > expect Microsoft Research is already planning 128-bit Windows! They do
    > it because they can!


    No, they do it because the world moves on. The whole time that computers
    become more an more powerful they become endowed with more and more
    capaiblity. For whatever reason you honestly seem to think that capability
    doesn't come at the expense of performance. Personally, I want Photoshop
    running on a 64bit processor with 2 gigs of RAM. Having just finished a
    fair amount of signage for a trade-show, I got tired of clicking and waiting
    on my 300 Mb graphics files. In your dumb-assed 16 bit version of the
    unviverse I wouldn't have a computer capable of doing the work unless I boug
    ht a Mac. And, equally when I had to transfer the 128Mb Tiffs to the
    printer over the internet there wouldn't have been enough band-width because
    all these little gimp computers would be choking on all the high-speed
    traffic they had to maintain. And then when the printer got the file he'd
    only be able to print it out on a black and white dot-matrix printer!

    ....
    > Andersen. Capitalism isn't all it's cracked up to be. It leads to
    > great disparities in societies, which then breed discontent and
    > unrest.


    Everything breeds discontent and unrest. Everything leads to disparities in
    societies. Please, dazzle us with your theory of social evolution (but do
    it in the off-ramp. I'm sick of your non-sequiters as an argument to .NET).

    >
    > Watch this space!


    What? You're actually going to say something interesting? Doubtful.



  12. #42
    Robert Lantry Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET

    "Kunle Odutola okocha.freeserve.co.uk>" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS> wrote in
    message news:3c9c8dd5@10.1.10.29...

    > We are fast getting there. Government mandated standards and government
    > regulation often has that effect. Windows Lite anyone?
    >
    > Kunle
    >


    Which is why I say the states have to be stopped before they're allowed to
    claim sovereignty over windows and bifurcate it right out of existence.
    --
    Robert
    mirth@mirthy.com
    Are you a VB programmer who hates .NET?
    Get a fresh start here!
    http://www.yourfuturestartshere.com/



  13. #43
    Robert Lantry Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET

    "Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote in message
    news:3c9cba0a$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    >
    > I'll even go so far as to say that I have *never* met a single person who
    > was anti-.NET. Not one. Even in this newsgroup, which is one of the most
    > militant anti-.NET newsgroups there is, there are still only a hand full
    > of people complaining.
    >
    > /Pat


    Maybe Microsoft rounded them all up and had them shot?

    But seriously, I've only had one .NOT in my life. He was an ex-cobol
    programmer (who wrote the most amazingly bad VB code I've ever seen - and
    after releasing it from unit testing, when it came back from QA, *I* had to
    debug his crap). He swore he'd never use .NET, and for all our sakes, I
    hope he never does.

    I managed about 60 people at my last job, all various and sundry types of
    developers and for the most part everyone was interested in .NET.
    Addmittedly the Java guys were a little cool on it, but they had no more
    problems "getting" it than the VB programmers did.

    But! I feel I have lived in a rarefied environment for the last 12 years
    (Silcon valley and all), and people here are more likely to roll with the
    punches of evolving technology because we're always on the bleeding edge of
    something, be it hardware, software or social evolution. There have been
    times when I'd even go so far as to say this place is "heady" with new
    ideas. Especially if I've just come back from a mid-west trade-show. I
    find it amazing that a demo at a show can grind to a halt because someone
    says "Hey, Enid, look at this new fangled tool-bar! The icons change
    colors!"

    I know I'll catch **** for slamming the mid-west, but honestly, every year,
    twice a year, I put up with hay-seeds and hicks who are more impressed with
    the graphics in a piece of software than in what the software actually
    does...and I have absolutely no doubts of why AOL is AOL and why Microsoft
    is the evil empire.



    --
    Robert
    mirth@mirthy.com
    Are you a VB programmer who hates .NET?
    Get a fresh start here!
    http://www.yourfuturestartshere.com/




  14. #44
    Jason Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET


    Amen.

  15. #45
    Nelson Guest

    Re: .NOT vs .NET


    Pat,

    I think it is you that needs to get out more. Maybe you should spend less
    time in here and see that the sky is blue in the real world. The distaste
    and dare I say it hate for .Net is out there. People don't post here, because
    in here, they are only entitled to your opinion.

    Tom is right, you do seem afraid. You bash on the statements of others while
    coming up with ridiculous statments of your own. "My friends and family
    love .Net" ROFL!!!!

    Keep em coming, you make me laugh.


    "Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
    >
    >You probably just don't get around much. The support for .NET is overwhelming.
    >Go to Amazon.com, the number one selling programming tool is VS.NET. Go

    to
    >Wrox press, 3 out of the top 4 selling books are .NET. Go to VBWire.com,
    >64 percent of VB programmers say they have already or plan on upgrading

    to
    >.NET. The VS.NET launch event had the largest attendance ever for a programming
    >event in Microsoft's entire history. The DevDays conference was jam-packed
    >with VB developers. Have you gone to any of Microsoft's .NET workshops?

    If
    >you did, you'll see they're also jam packed with VB developers. Do you honestly
    >expect us to believe that all these people are trainers, publishers and

    authors?
    >
    >
    >In terms of personal experience, I have friends and family in the industry,
    >not one is a NOTter. In fact, I have three friends attending a C# class

    right
    >now as I type this. Of my company's IT staff, the only complaint we hear
    >is from the VB6 developers stuck doing VB6 because they want to be on the
    >projects using VB.NET. Again, I can personally verify that none of these
    >people are trainers, publishers and authors.
    >
    >Just this week, I went out of town out for a business trip. We asked their
    >IT staff about the local night life. They recommended some bars and restaurants
    >to go to. Unfortunately, they couldn't go with. Why? Because they were taking
    >a VB.NET class at their local community college. Again, none of these people
    >are trainers, publishers or authors.
    >
    >I'll even go so far as to say that I have *never* met a single person who
    >was anti-.NET. Not one. Even in this newsgroup, which is one of the most
    >militant anti-.NET newsgroups there is, there are still only a hand full
    >of people complaining.
    >
    >/Pat
    >
    >"Steve" <steve@spam.me.not.ruraltechnologies.net> wrote:
    >
    >>And that's just the opposite of the "things I've read and my experience
    >>within the VB community over the last two years since .NET was first
    >>announced."
    >>
    >>It is all subjective at this point; just as stupity is subjective.
    >>
    >>Label jars, not people.
    >>
    >>Steve
    >>"f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgmmng." -Anon.
    >>
    >>

    >



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