Saw it coming - Page 2


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Thread: Saw it coming

  1. #16
    Karl E. Peterson Guest

    Re: Saw it coming

    Hi Jay --

    > To bad. I had read earlier that the plan was to talk up rich clients more
    > and web services less. Web services are nice to work with, just don't have
    > much need as of yet.


    Yeah, when business school's study this debacle in their history classes years from
    now, and they will, this fundamental misreading of what folks want is going to be
    highlighted over and over. They never did understand the internet, and have only
    been interested in changing it to be more proprietary.

    Heh, a funny example that was brought to my attention just this morning is that
    Spanish language DOTNET portal they were busily propping up (see YAG's most recent
    "status report" in the spam group). Apparently, the operator of that site was *so*
    enthused that he spammed all the newsgroups on msnews, some 3000+ messages(!),
    spewing on and on about the glories of this new site. I guess the ISP took 'em down
    for violation of their terms agreement, in response. Irony at its best, huh? <g>

    Later... Karl
    --
    [Microsoft Basic: 1976-2001, RIP]


  2. #17
    Jacob Grass Guest

    Re: Saw it coming

    Hey Karl-

    Karl E. Peterson wrote:
    > Apparently, the operator of that site was *so* enthused that
    > he spammed all the newsgroups on msnews, some 3000+ messages(!),
    > spewing on and on about the glories of this new site. I guess the
    > ISP took 'em down for violation of their terms agreement, in
    > response. Irony at its best, huh? <g>


    Same site name, different URLs. . . The .com one is gone, the .net one is
    still there. The spamming took place in December of last year and was for
    the .com one.

    --
    Jacob Grass
    Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo.



  3. #18
    Rob Teixeira Guest

    Re: Saw it coming


    "Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote:
    >
    >They never did understand the internet, and have only
    >been interested in changing it to be more proprietary.
    >


    How is webservices changing it to be "more proprietary"?
    Webservices is an open standard whose fundamental basis is to allow disperate
    systems (including non-Windows/non-MS) to communicate.

    -Rob

  4. #19
    Jason Guest

    Re: Saw it coming


    "Rob Teixeira" <RobTeixeira@@msn.com> wrote:
    >
    >"Karl E. Peterson" <karl@mvps.org> wrote:
    >>
    >>They never did understand the internet, and have only
    >>been interested in changing it to be more proprietary.
    >>

    >
    >How is webservices changing it to be "more proprietary"?
    >Webservices is an open standard whose fundamental basis is to allow disperate
    >systems (including non-Windows/non-MS) to communicate.
    >
    >-Rob


    Yeah, gotta go with Rob on this one. The entire interface for communicating
    with a web service is well documented and standardized. It is not a Microsoft
    standard, although Microsoft played a big part in creating the standard.
    IBM was also a big player, and is working with Microsoft on a set of standards
    for secure web services, which is needed badly if they are to catch on.


    I have it on good authority that Sun considers SOAP to be a Microsoft technology
    and refuses to use it internally, but there is a good SOAP implementation
    from Apache, and several commercial Web Services packages coming on line
    for Java. There is nothing preventing you from doing a web service in Perl,
    C/C++, or any language that has libraries to support XML and SOAP.

    One note on Sun: Java has not been submitted to a standards committee.
    The standard is still controlled and owned by Sun, and they can refuse anyone
    the rights to mess with it (and took Microsoft to court to prevent them from
    competing on an equal playing field in the Java space).

    Java is proprietary to Sun. Yes, they let other people use it, as long as
    they don't compete with Sun too well. Sun and Microsoft are both in business
    to make money, which is how it should be.

    There ain't no good guys, there ain't no bad guys, there's only you and me
    ... and a couple of billionaires calling the shots. Face it - everybody
    wants to control the internet, Sun, Microsoft, IBM, and Oracle included.
    Everybody wants to create the next great proprietary technology that can
    generate them a revenue stream, because without revenue, companies tend to
    go broke.

  5. #20
    David Bayley Guest

    Re: Saw it coming

    Jay Glynn wrote:

    > To bad. I had read earlier that the plan was to talk up rich clients
    > more and web services less. Web services are nice to work with, just
    > don't have much need as of yet.


    How about incorporating Google searches into your rich clients...

    http://www.google.com/apis/

    Go go google.

    --
    David.




  6. #21
    Jay Glynn Guest

    Re: Saw it coming

    DL'd the bits yesterday....

    "David Bayley" <dbayley@spamless.aebacus.com> wrote in message
    news:3cb769a7@10.1.10.29...
    > Jay Glynn wrote:
    >
    > > To bad. I had read earlier that the plan was to talk up rich clients
    > > more and web services less. Web services are nice to work with, just
    > > don't have much need as of yet.

    >
    > How about incorporating Google searches into your rich clients...
    >
    > http://www.google.com/apis/
    >
    > Go go google.
    >
    > --
    > David.
    >
    >
    >




  7. #22
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: Saw it coming


    "MarkN" <vb.@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:3cb702d8$1@10.1.10.29...

    > What cost? You should check out SWT. For a demo get Eclipse. It runs

    faster
    > and better than .Net on my laptop.


    SWT sounds like a good compromise to the AWT/Swing extremes in principle.
    How do you develop custom SWT components?.

    Do you have to write a JNI module for each platform you wish to support?
    Are you restricted to composing your components using exisiting controls if
    you want to use 100% Java?

    Kunle



  8. #23
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: Saw it coming


    "Kunle Odutola okocha.freeserve.co.uk>" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS> wrote in
    message news:3cb89499@10.1.10.29...

    > SWT sounds like a good compromise to the AWT/Swing extremes in principle.
    > How do you develop custom SWT components?.
    >
    > Do you have to write a JNI module for each platform you wish to support?
    > Are you restricted to composing your components using exisiting controls

    if
    > you want to use 100% Java?


    Never mind. I already found out.Was feeling a little lazy earlier on. Sounds
    like Java makes it more hard work that necessary but, it's nice to see that
    someone else has done a lot of the groundwork.

    Kunle



  9. #24
    Isle of the Dead Guest

    Re: Saw it coming

    "MarkN" <vb.@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:3cb6dc08$1@10.1.10.29...
    > >
    > >comeback so to speak. Not everything fits in a browser, and it is in this
    > >arena that .NET beats the pants off of Java and J2EE.

    >
    > Does it? This only proves you know nothing about Java. Java was not

    created
    > to run in the browser (Can you only use .Net for Web Services?). I've

    been
    > doing this in Java before .Net came out. We switched our Applet to an

    Application
    > in like 5 minutes and we were using a home grown version of web services.
    > Serialized Java objects can be sent over HTTP and have been since at

    least
    > 1998. Switching to Web Services (serialized XML vs serialized Objects) in
    > Java is easier than making my wife mad at me.



    I posted this before, but what the **** -
    http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc...nce/index.html
    Serialized XML has been available in Java since 1999.

    And RosettaNet is basically an implementation of WebServices
    using proprietary formats. It's been in process since 1998
    http://xml.coverpages.org/rosettaNet.html




  10. #25
    Tom Bennet Guest

    Re: Saw it coming


    Mark,

    I'm glad to see there are some people who post here that get it! To see
    a killer Java app, check out jEdit from www.jedit.org. It's quite possibly
    the best programmers editor that i've used and also a good example of what
    can be done using Swing with Java. It's not at all slow and provides many
    advanced GUI features. The other nice thing is that all of the source is
    there for your enjoyment!

    I am amazed at the amount of Java open source that is out there.

    Java is making a big comeback on the GUI side thanks to support from the
    industry.

    Tom

    "MarkN" <vb.@127.0.0.1> wrote:
    >
    >Does it? This only proves you know nothing about Java. Java was not created
    >to run in the browser (Can you only use .Net for Web Services?). I've

    been
    >doing this in Java before .Net came out. We switched our Applet to an Application
    >in like 5 minutes and we were using a home grown version of web services.
    > Serialized Java objects can be sent over HTTP and have been since at least
    >1998. Switching to Web Services (serialized XML vs serialized Objects)

    in
    >Java is easier than making my wife mad at me.
    >
    >Have you seen Java Web Start? And as far as I can tell doing this with

    Assembies
    >and Namespaces will be a pain.
    >
    >So you may like .Net better but it doesn't beat the pants off Java. Try
    >doing Jini in .Net.
    >
    >Mark



  11. #26
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: Saw it coming


    "Tom Bennet" <fdsfds@fdfs.com> wrote in message
    news:3cb9e311$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > Mark,
    >
    > I'm glad to see there are some people who post here that get it! To see
    > a killer Java app, check out jEdit from www.jedit.org.


    It is noticeably slower than comparable .NET alternatives e.g. SharpDevelop.
    I agree it is a very good low-fi IDE. Better at this stage than SharpDevelop
    certainly.

    Kunle





  12. #27
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: Saw it coming


    "MarkN" <vb.@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:3cbab2a5$1@10.1.10.29...
    > Glad I looked at this post too.


    ;-)

    > SWT, from what I can tell, will currently run on Linux, Windows and Unix.


    Info I read on www.eclipse.org only mentioned Windows and Linux. Perhaps it
    was out of date.

    > The Eclipse (and all variants) were developed using SWT. It runs faster
    > on my laptop than VS.Net. Rational's XDE (standalone version) was written
    > as an Eclipse plug-in and uses SWT.


    VS.NET is a much-more fully featured, "heavy weight" product Mark. I would
    expect it to be slower. It is mostly written in C/C++ and any speed
    difference is unrelated to UI issues. Eclipse is faster because it
    [currently] does much less?

    Kunle



  13. #28
    MarkN Guest

    Re: Saw it coming


    "Kunle Odutola" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >"Kunle Odutola okocha.freeserve.co.uk>" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS> wrote

    in
    >message news:3cb89499@10.1.10.29...
    >
    >> SWT sounds like a good compromise to the AWT/Swing extremes in principle.
    >> How do you develop custom SWT components?.
    >>
    >> Do you have to write a JNI module for each platform you wish to support?
    >> Are you restricted to composing your components using exisiting controls

    >if
    >> you want to use 100% Java?

    >
    >Never mind. I already found out.Was feeling a little lazy earlier on. Sounds
    >like Java makes it more hard work that necessary but, it's nice to see that
    >someone else has done a lot of the groundwork.
    >


    Glad I looked at this post too.

    SWT, from what I can tell, will currently run on Linux, Windows and Unix.
    Not sure about Mac, but from what I read Java/Swing apps run just as fast
    on Mac OSX as native Windows - I don't have a Mac so I can verify. Anyway,
    for everything that exists on the platform in the way of widgets, SWT will
    use them. If not, it will emulate them.

    If one has to decide between SWT and Swing - well if one is doing good OO
    and MVCish programming switching between the two shouldn't be difficult.
    One should be able to a HTML front end pretty simply for that matter.

    The Eclipse (and all variants) were developed using SWT. It runs faster
    on my laptop than VS.Net. Rational's XDE (standalone version) was written
    as an Eclipse plug-in and uses SWT.

    Check out www.javadude.com for some custom layout managers.

    Mark


  14. #29
    MarKN Guest

    Re: Saw it coming


    Ok, I'm using WSAD too and it is just as fast. And WSAD does as much if not
    more than VS.Net.

    No, VS.Net isn't doing anything more. Eclipse/WSAD is written in Java so
    it should be slower no matter what.

    BTW, the base Eclipse product does things VS.Net doesn't. And it is free!

    Don't get me wrong, everyone. VS.Net is a good product. I just don't think
    it is that much, if any, better than WSAD.

    Mark


    "Kunle Odutola" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >"MarkN" <vb.@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:3cbab2a5$1@10.1.10.29...
    >> Glad I looked at this post too.

    >
    >;-)
    >
    >> SWT, from what I can tell, will currently run on Linux, Windows and Unix.

    >
    >Info I read on www.eclipse.org only mentioned Windows and Linux. Perhaps

    it
    >was out of date.
    >
    >> The Eclipse (and all variants) were developed using SWT. It runs faster
    >> on my laptop than VS.Net. Rational's XDE (standalone version) was written
    >> as an Eclipse plug-in and uses SWT.

    >
    >VS.NET is a much-more fully featured, "heavy weight" product Mark. I would
    >expect it to be slower. It is mostly written in C/C++ and any speed
    >difference is unrelated to UI issues. Eclipse is faster because it
    >[currently] does much less?
    >
    >Kunle
    >
    >



  15. #30
    Kunle Odutola Guest

    Re: Saw it coming


    "MarKN" <vb.@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:3cbae489$1@10.1.10.29...
    >
    > Ok, I'm using WSAD too and it is just as fast. And WSAD does as much if

    not
    > more than VS.Net.


    So you can [fully] develop and debug native and managed C/C++, VB, JScript
    and C# [or Java] apps in WSAD?
    It has built-in graphical XML and web apps UI editors?
    Stored procedure debugging?
    A robust, flexible and scriptable extendibility model?
    An integrated help system like VS.NET (I actually like the "dynamic help"
    window/feature)?
    Data Explorer/Data Connections-type functionality?
    .......
    .......


    Mark, please compare apples to apples.

    > No, VS.Net isn't doing anything more. Eclipse/WSAD is written in Java so
    > it should be slower no matter what.


    What an application is doing [or not doing] has a major impact on it's
    performance Mark. If WSAD is re-written in C/C++, would you expect it's
    performance to be better or worse?. Why?

    Thought so, like I said, VS.NET != WSAD, whatever else you may claim. ;-)
    [You _did_ say better right?. If not, re-read the rationale for developing
    JFace/SWT again.....]

    > BTW, the base Eclipse product does things VS.Net doesn't. And it is free!


    Of course. They have a set of common features as well as unique features.
    VS.NET just has more unique features. It still manages to miss many that I
    like though.... :-(

    > Don't get me wrong, everyone. VS.Net is a good product. I just don't

    think
    > it is that much, if any, better than WSAD.


    To each, their own Mark.

    Kunle



    > "Kunle Odutola" <kunle.odutola@<REMOVETHIS>okocha.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
    > >
    > >"MarkN" <vb.@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:3cbab2a5$1@10.1.10.29...
    > >> Glad I looked at this post too.

    > >
    > >;-)
    > >
    > >> SWT, from what I can tell, will currently run on Linux, Windows and

    Unix.
    > >
    > >Info I read on www.eclipse.org only mentioned Windows and Linux. Perhaps

    > it
    > >was out of date.
    > >
    > >> The Eclipse (and all variants) were developed using SWT. It runs

    faster
    > >> on my laptop than VS.Net. Rational's XDE (standalone version) was

    written
    > >> as an Eclipse plug-in and uses SWT.

    > >
    > >VS.NET is a much-more fully featured, "heavy weight" product Mark. I

    would
    > >expect it to be slower. It is mostly written in C/C++ and any speed
    > >difference is unrelated to UI issues. Eclipse is faster because it
    > >[currently] does much less?
    > >
    > >Kunle
    > >
    > >

    >



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